From: fractint-owner@xmission.com (fractint Digest) To: fractint-digest@xmission.com Subject: fractint Digest V1 #33 Reply-To: fractint@xmission.com Sender: fractint-owner@xmission.com Errors-To: fractint-owner@xmission.com Precedence: fractint Digest Wednesday, October 15 1997 Volume 01 : Number 033 In this issue: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Re: (fractint) Colors! Re: (fractint) Why not Java? (fractint) Buy Tim's book.... CHEAP! Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas Re: (fractint) Colors! Re: (fractint) Colors! Re: (fractint) Colors! Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Re: (fractint) Colors! Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps (fractint) Copyright law Re: (fractint) Copyright law Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Re: (fractint) Copyright law Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps Re: (fractint) Copyright law Re: (fractint) Copyright law Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps (fractint) about Sunglasses and Int math. Re: (fractint) Copyright law See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the fractint or fractint-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:04:38 -0600 From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? In article <34444ECA.6314D059@vms.csd.mu.edu> , "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie@vmsb.csd.mu.edu> writes: > My original post was based of two (probably totally off-base) assumptions: > > 1: C is a dying language, as Sun would have you believe [...] Languages live longer than many people would like to believe... FORTRAN is still alive as FORTRAN 90 and it was originally conceieved to be nothing more than a glorified translator of formulas into assembly code (FORTRAN = FORmula TRANslator). LISP was also invented around the same time as FORTRAN (1950s) and is still alive and kicking as embodied in the Common LISP standard. C was invented in the middle/late 70s (1978?) and is alive and kicking as C++. Designers of new languages always like to paint the situation as one of near-death for competing languages and toot their own horns quite loudly about how their new language is better than all existing languages. Java has a niche and a role to play in network-based apps and has appeal for embedded network devices and some other things. I seriously doubt that Java will be displacing C/C++/FORTRAN/LISP out of its strongholds any time soon. Instead, it will be used where it makes more sense to use Java than C/C++. Java is a new language for new applications of programming, not a language that will replace other languages. Also, Java has been incredibly overhyped considering that its birthplace is the Mother of All Hype -- the web. - -- ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.'' -- Steven Covey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D; Rich Thomson email me for more info rthomson@ptc.com - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:23:23 -0700 From: "Jay Hill" Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Damien wrote: >I think C will be around at least as long as Java. :) C++ offers many of >the same features as Java (although Java does some of them more elegantly). > The advantages to C++ over Java are that (a) C++ tools are more mature; >(b) C++ is easy for C programmers to pick up; (c) C++ is compiled to native >code, not generic byte codes (so it's much faster). None of these are >insurmountable advantages for Java, but until they're at least addressed, I >don't see Java dislodging C++ for application development. The biggest difference between C++ and Java, to me, is the lack of complex in Java. Have you tried to write a roots of a complex quartic polynomial in real only arithmetic. It is a mess. While we like to talk of assembly optimization, there are still the experimental fractal projects some of us do, and these are easiest done in a smart language. Another $.03 Jay - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:25:54 -0500 From: leenewsted@juno.com (Merle L Newsted Jr) Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors! Hey Jay, I did a lot of zooming on Sunglasses and didn't have the problem you are describing. However, I don't know how to rotate a fractal in the formula the way you did in Sunglasses-r, What I did is simply press "page up" once to get a zoom box and then rotate the box with the mouse (hold right button). I didn't know people wanted a par file with a frm file I'll be sure to do that in the future. Q. Why do you want a par file? Can't you just use the frm file, or is there an easy way of using a par file to view an image. So far I've had to load the .frm and the .par to view the fractal .par. Why not just run the fractal from formula and save the image you like or don't like (of course with Nuker fractals "not-like" is impossible-right?). Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted yesterday? Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as original. Sylvie? Thanks, Nuke - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:44:15 -0600 From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Speaking of Java, if any of you are learning Java or just like free stuff :), then look at and search for "poster" on their site. If you fill out their little survey, they will send you a poster showing the class hierarchy of Java, which puts it all into perspective. In article <88256531.005F029F.00@NOTESGW.NOSC.MIL> , "Jay Hill" writes: > The biggest difference between C++ and Java, to me, is the lack of > complex in Java. Odd, I would have thought it would be included, but you're right, its not on the class hierarchy on the poster. I guess Sun doesn't consider complex numbers to be important for the target audience of Java -- network based applications. - -- ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.'' -- Steven Covey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D; Rich Thomson email me for more info rthomson@ptc.com - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:16:13 -0600 From: Rich Thomson Subject: (fractint) Buy Tim's book.... CHEAP! FRACTALS FOR WINDOWS. By Tim Wegner, et al. Item # 962481 Pub at $ 34.95 Your Cost $ 5.95 Experience a hands-on fractal exploration using the bundled Winfract program to generate, manipulate, edit, color-cycle and save over 75 fractals, including projecting them into three dimensions. Includes a 3.5" disk. Paperbound Illus., some color. 358 pages Waite Group - -- ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.'' -- Steven Covey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D; Rich Thomson email me for more info rthomson@ptc.com - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:04:35 -0400 From: nick.grasso@hrads.com (Grasso, Nick) Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas Ramiro Perez wrote: >By the way, anyone knows on where I can find IFS files?, I search for >them (in altavista and spanky!), but I found no one (save the old ones >that come in fdesign and vifs). Try these: Nick - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:14:10 -0600 From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (fractint) IFS Formulas There is also a collection of IFS files in the fracxtra ZIP file available on Spanky. I think there is also an IFS editor that is much more intuitive than fractint in constructing interesting IFS par files. I can't remember the name of it, but I think it also is on Spanky. - -- ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.'' -- Steven Covey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D; Rich Thomson email me for more info rthomson@ptc.com - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:09:58 -0400 From: Sylvie Gallet Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors! Hi Nuke, >> Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted yesterday? >> Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as original. >> Sylvie? Though the tool I used (Fractint) is free, the pars I posted yesterday are my creations (coordinates, coloring schemes, palettes...) and I don't= put them in the public domain. - Sylvie - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sylvie_Gallet@CompuServe.com http://spanky.triumf.ca/www/fractint/sylvie/gallet.html http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Sylvie_Gallet/homepage.htm - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:25:28 -0400 From: "Damien M. Jones" Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors! Nuke, - Q. Why do you want a par file? Can't you just use the frm file, It is easier to start with a PAR file, particularly if your formula requires good values for p1, p2, or p3, or a particular location. With a PAR, you can set these parameters up to good "default" settings, and let people play from there. - Q2. Why did Sylvie put a copyright on the par file posted yesterday? - Isn't Fractint free? I don't see how you could claim it as original. FractInt is free, sure. But the images that you produce with it are *yours*. The ones I make are *mine*. They have a copyright simply by being created, and if someone wants to retain that copyright, they're perfectly entitled to. So while FractInt may be free, do NOT assume that every image you see produced with FractInt is also free. Many are not. Think of it this way. If you created a piece of artwork with Adobe Photoshop, does that mean Adobe owns the art? Of course not. Now let's say you got Photoshop free with your flatbed scanner. Does that mean artwork you produce with it is now free, too? Of course not. The copyright or distribution rights of the tool used have little bearing on whether what is produced is freely distributable or not. I hope this clears things up. Sylvie, didn't mean to butt in here (I know you can speak for yourself), but as someone who also copyrights their art, I felt compelled to speak. :) Damien M. Jones / temporary sanity designs / http://www.icd.com/tsd/ dmj@icd.com / my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/ - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:32:38 -0600 From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors! Everything that is posted by anyone, anywhere on the network has an implicit copyright on it by the author. There is no need to explicitly state copyright anymore in order to have a copyright status on an author's work. Every email message, news article, web page, etc. already has the author's copyright on it. You have to explicitly state that you are putting something in the public domain in order for it to be in the public domain (at least for works created since the last revision of the copyright act/treaties in the 80s). Fractint is freely available, but unless the source code states that it is public domain, it is still copyrighted by the authors. Just because something is copyrighted doesn't mean you have to pay for using it. However, if someone started taking copies of fractint and tried to sell it as their own, that would be a blatant violation of the copyright and the Stone Soup Group could get a court injunction to prevent such a person from selling it. There is a copyright FAQ that discusses all of these issues, if you're interested in the gory details. - -- ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.'' -- Steven Covey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D; Rich Thomson email me for more info rthomson@ptc.com - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:48:17 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu> Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Jay Hill wrote: > > > The biggest difference between C++ and Java, to me, is the lack of > complex in Java. Wait a minute! I don't remember C++ having complex as a type, either. The online docs for Microsoft Visual C++ 4.0 say something about a Fortran complex type, and simlating it in C++, and something about a complex function in Excel worksheets, but nothing about an actual complex class.Could you explain exactly what you mean by this? Also, I'm surprised that Java would include arbitrary precision decimals but leave out complex numbers. What was Sun thinking?????????????????? Of course, this means that you would have to write your own class for complex numbers. I tried it in C++ and the results were slow. I'm sure if you tried it in Java, the results would be SLOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! Justin "I only use Win-doze because: 1. I need more hard drive space (read: a new hard drive) to run Solaris 2. 32 megs (the minimum) probably isn't enough for Solaris 3. 0% of my current apps would run on Solaris (unless there is an MS-DOS or Windows emulator available) 4. All of the above costs MONEY (which I don't have)" - -Me - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:53:42 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu> Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Rich Thomson wrote: > Speaking of Java, if any of you are learning Java or just like free > stuff :), then look at and search for > "poster" on their site. If you fill out their little survey, they > will send you a poster showing the class hierarchy of Java, which puts > it all into perspective. Sorry, I checked it out, and one of the results was a page saying that "the free Java posterpromotion has ended." :( Justin "I only use Win-doze because: 1. I need more hard drive space (read: a new hard drive) to run Solaris 2. 32 megs (the minimum) probably isn't enough for Solaris 3. 0% of my current apps would run on Solaris (unless there is an MS-DOS or Windows emulator available) 4. All of the above costs MONEY (which I don't have)" - -Me - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:00:07 -0700 From: "Jay Hill" Subject: Re: (fractint) Colors! Nuke replied: >Hey Jay, >I did a lot of zooming on Sunglasses and didn't have the problem you are >describing. However, I don't know how to rotate a fractal in the formula >the way you did in Sunglasses-r, What I did is simply press "page up" >once to get a zoom box and then rotate the box with the mouse (hold right >button). >I didn't know people wanted a par file with a frm file I'll be sure to do >that in the future. OK, Now it works without changing anything?!?!?!? That is your frm which I couldn't get to work after the initial view. Other times, this was because some parameter of setting was not set right, like float=y. There are so many of these it is no easy to guess what you had when you were looking at it and zooming without difficulty. You see the glasses on its side? Rotate by hitting PGUP, CTRL'+' or '-' several times. I did that and got solid blue. At that point I hit B and save to the par file. That was the -r version. But then when I read it in, I still got solid blue. The only difference between the two pars is the rotation!!!! Anyone find this happening???? And then go away?!?!?!?! Thanks Jay - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:39:55 +100 From: "Benno Schmid" Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps Justin Kolodziej wrote: > > Actually, Fractint's palette editor only lists values from 0 to 63, so when you > increase a value in Fractint, it's like increasing the actual RGB component of the > color by 4. The translation is automatic, resulting in any increase or decrease in > color values in Fractint having meaning to the VGA adapter. So, it has nothing to > do with your SVGA card and everything to do wit Fractint's design. I really was stupid when I wrote this, only looked at the +/- one change and forgot about the maximum of 63. > Hope this doesn't confuse you TOO much... I think 64*4=256 is something I might probably understand... Benno Schmid - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:12:03 -0600 From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps I'd like to mention that while VGA cards may impose this "divide by 4" business on the colormaps, there is no such imposition with unix based systems, the Windows color model or the color model in a GIF file colormap. So please don't assume that the world is a VGA card with 6-bit colors when creating your colormap files... always use the full 0-255 range. - -- ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.'' -- Steven Covey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D; Rich Thomson email me for more info rthomson@ptc.com - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:39:39 -0400 (EDT) From: ijk@sas.upenn.edu (Ian J Kaplan) Subject: (fractint) Copyright law Since the topic's been brought up, I'd like to ask: what does everybody think of copyright law as applied to fractals? That is, there exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by anyone (except perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only discovered inside a mathematical construct. One can envision legions of artists copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x. At the same time the rights of the artist who makes a real effort in searching, varying parameters and so on to produce an image would seem to be more comprable to the work of a sculptor finding the statue within a rock. For the first time in history, however, the law must draw a rather fine line between these two cases; fractals are infinitely reproducable, after all, so while a person on the street picking up a rock and calling it his copyrighted piece of art is no particular problem- who wants his rock?- doing the same for a fractal has worldwide implications. Where or how do we define the line between "random area of zooming in a public image" and "original work of art"? Ideas? - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:30:23 -0700 From: "Jay Hill" Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law ijk wrote: >copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x. Don't get me started! If you look in the archive of this list or the fractal art list, you will see a post of mine where I remark about par files can only have 2000 max images. I created giant files with every midget through period 16 (nearly 65000) and many thousands more through period 64. I viewed many of these with Fractint which draws them at a pace of a second or each. It can get hypnotic. Anyway, I could post them and copyright the whole lot! It is stupid, I agree. As for copyrighting formula - the Mset equation was published in copyright articles by Mandelbrot himself. So there we are. I do respect work of others, as anyone who reads my publications will see, but some of the fractal artists seem to get too caught up in it, it seems to me. My $.03 worth. Oh my, you got me started. :-) Jay - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:30:33 -0700 From: "Jay Hill" Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Justin wrote, >Also, I'm surprised that Java would include arbitrary precision >decimals but leave out complex numbers. What was Sun >thinking?????????????????? Of course, this means that you >would have to write your own class for complex numbers. >I tried it in C++ and the results were slow. C++ complex classes are mostly written as inline functions, and so are not so slow. I get within a factor of two of unrolled loops in C. Actually, Java won't let you because it doesn't allow operator overloading. I was convinced this was wisdom in action when someone explained to me that all this was to keep the language simple. No overloading and no complex. But NOWWWW! you remind me that they have arbitrary precision decimals which is certainly not simple!! Good grief! Back to more on topic, we can look for Fractint to move to a windowing environment someday. Presumably that would be C++ although not necessarily. The other choices for a window program are Delphi, C, Java and VBasic (any others?). None of these have complex. I push for complex type because we will likely have the ablility to extend with addon functionality (special test functions) written in C++ or asm. These are easiest done with classes. One can even wrap complex extended precision in classes. I first used these in me DEEPZOOM program 4 years ago. The original is still posted at Spanky! and at my web page, see below. If you look carefully at this old program you will see I used _exact_ tests for points in the period 1, 2, 3, and 4 components. That is the big cardioid, the circle, the top and bottom bud (-0.123 +- 0.74i), the little cardioid at -1.75, the cardioids at -1.94 and (-0.156+-1.032i), and buds at -1.31, (0.28 +- 0.53i). These involved some not too simple complex arithmetic which would have been a royal pain done in C. If any of you recall my original posting about this program, I had converted an existing program to extended precision over night. Someone had complained that an extended precision Mandelbrot plotter had been spotted but costs $80. I replied the next day with one for free. If I had to do it in C or asm I'd want a lot more time.... I'd still be working on it. I vote for C++. And since Microsoft has no long double, I'd leave it out. Jay http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/3825 main(){int f,g,h=0;float a,b,c,d,e;for(;h<3920;putchar("^/-,;<:lnb/bh`\ r/ylqbAmmhI/S/x`K\013"[++h>3840&&g<25?31-g:g>79?31:f]^1))if(!(f=(8*(c=( d=(g=1+h%80)/31.-2)*d+(e=.047*(h/80-24))*e)-3)*c+d<3/32.?24:16*(1+2*d+c )<1?30:0))for(a=d,b=c=0;(b=2*b*c+e)*b+(c=a)*a<=4&&++f<26;a=d-b*b+c*c);} - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:42:48 -0600 From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law I think lots of people here are confusing copyright with patents, trademarks and other so-called "intellectual property" restrictions. Yes, Mandelbrot published the formula in a copyrighted work, but that doesn't mean that I am infringing Mandelbrot's copyright when I write z := z^2 + c. Before you go and get all bent out of shape about copyright, please take the time to understand what copyright IS and what it ISN'T. - -- ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.'' -- Steven Covey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D; Rich Thomson email me for more info rthomson@ptc.com - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:53:33 -0400 From: nick.grasso@hrads.com (Grasso, Nick) Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps At 03:12 PM 10/15/97 -0600, Rich Thomson wrote: >I'd like to mention that while VGA cards may impose this "divide by 4" >business on the colormaps, there is no such imposition with unix based >systems, the Windows color model or the color model in a GIF file >colormap. So please don't assume that the world is a VGA card with >6-bit colors when creating your colormap files... always use the full >0-255 range. But what happens if I'm running fractint for DOS in a VESA mode and I specify a color that is not a multiple of 4, say 31,63,126? Does is round it off to 32,64,128 when it displays the color? Or does it truncate it to 28,60,124? If it does round or truncate, does it write it to the GIF file as 31,63,126? Nick nick.grasso@hrads.com - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:57:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Evin C Robertson Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law Excerpts from mail: 15-Oct-97 (fractint) Copyright law by Ian J Kaplan@sas.upenn.e > Since the topic's been brought up, I'd like to ask: what does > everybody think of copyright law as applied to fractals? That is, there > exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by anyone (except > perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only discovered inside > a mathematical construct. One can envision legions of artists > copyrighting every section of the Mandelbrot set at, say, zoom 4x. > At the same time the rights of the artist who makes a real effort in > searching, varying parameters and so on to produce an image would seem to > be more comprable to the work of a sculptor finding the statue within a > rock. For the first time in history, however, the law must draw a rather > fine line between these two cases; fractals are infinitely reproducable, > after all, so while a person on the street picking up a rock and calling > it his copyrighted piece of art is no particular problem- who wants his > rock?- doing the same for a fractal has worldwide implications. Where or > how do we define the line between "random area of zooming in a public > image" and "original work of art"? Ideas? You can copyright just about anything. Of course, if someone can reproduce your image using "clean room" techniques, they can use the image without your permission. For example, let's say someone copyrights their formula for a fractal. You just happen to stumble upon the same fractal by playing with formulae. You can also copyright the same fractal. The same thing with zooms. However, someone could patent their formula or zoom, and then even when someone else finds it, they are bound by the original patent. If you can patent the genes in my body, you can also patent the numbers of the mandelbrot set. - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:59:36 +0200 (EET) From: Uri Bruck Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Ian J Kaplan wrote: > it his copyrighted piece of art is no particular problem- who wants his > rock?- doing the same for a fractal has worldwide implications. Where or > how do we define the line between "random area of zooming in a public > image" and "original work of art"? Ideas? I recall seeing aninterview with a fractal artist who called himself a fractographer. He likened fractal art to photography, saying that if you put 20 people (or any number ) to take a picture of the same building, most would be fine, a couple of photos would be really good, and may be one or two would be art. Fractal art, he argued, was similar, in fact, the fractal universe might be considered by some to be infinitely larger. Furthermore, when you watch fractal art, you come to note the emergence of style. This has more bearing to the question of art than to the question of copyright. Uri - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:59:39 -0600 From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: (fractint) Color Maps In article <3.0.3.32.19971015175333.006e22b4@hrads.com> , nick.grasso@hrads.com (Grasso, Nick) writes: > But what happens if I'm running fractint for DOS in a VESA mode and I > specify a color that is not a multiple of 4, say 31,63,126? Does is round > it off to 32,64,128 when it displays the color? Tim will have to answer that one, or perhaps someone who is more familiar with the fractint source code. > Or does it truncate it to > 28,60,124? If it does round or truncate, does it write it to the GIF file > as 31,63,126? If it messes up the colormap when writing the color table in the GIF file (i.e. VGA-izes it), then I would consider that a bug because its not storing the colors as specified. - -- ``Between stimulus and response is the will to choose.'' -- Steven Covey =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 3D Paint: The Power to Create in 3D; Rich Thomson email me for more info rthomson@ptc.com - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:58:02 -0400 From: Thierry Boudet <101355.2112@compuserve.com> Subject: (fractint) about Sunglasses and Int math. Bonsoir. I have tried the sunglasses formula. Very stranges (an nice) effect with Decomposition option. Sunglasses_integer { ; "Hello, fractal word !" ; Thierry Boudet 101355.2112@compuserve.com ; created Oct 16, 1997 in Toulouse reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=pas_glop.frm formulaname=Sunglasses passes=1 center-mag=3.665e-006/-8.65e-007/0.6666663 decomp=8 video=F5 } Best regards from Toulouse, France. Thierry Boudet. - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:47:54 -0400 From: "Damien M. Jones" Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law Ian, Let me first state that I'm not a lawyer. I am not qualified to give legal advice. And all too often, what makes sense to real people doesn't necessarily line up with the way laws are written. - That is, there exists a sense in which no fractal image is 'written' by - anyone (except perhaps the inventor of the original formula) but only - discovered inside a mathematical construct. I would think that this is just one of those grey areas that we'd all just as soon would go away. :-) I look at it this way: when I make a fractal image, I own that image. The image is composed of the shape and coloring that I have chosen, and perhaps the actual formula used as well. AFAIK, though, US copyright law doesn't let you copyright mathematical expressions or formulae, which would rule out the use of owning the base fractal shape itself. This leaves you with the particular artist's choice of shape, location, and color. Duplicate these exactly, and there is little trouble in proving the image is copied. Where it gets a little more problematic is when someone changes your image somewhat and tries to pass it off as their own. Maybe they zoom a little bit, in or out, or they change the colors. This falls into the area of "derivative works", and would also be a copyright violation. However, if you zoom far enough into someone else's copyrighted image that the features are no longer recognizable as a detail from the original image, it would be harder to prove that it is a derivative work. In short, the more work put into it, the more likely you can establish that it is your own work--in the same way that musicians can be inspired by other musicians, and produce similar (but not identical) music. I think drawing the line between infringement and inspiration will very difficult. Some things are obviously one or the other, but I'm pretty sure there will be cases where the difference is not so clear-cut. These copyright questions are not academic. Within the past few days I had someone copy an image from one of my web pages and use it in their own web page, without credit. Only the colors were different (and only a hue shift at that). In this particular case, I think the person was simply unaware of the copyright infringement they were doing, but it illustrates the need to inform people about what is and is not proper. Damien M. Jones / temporary sanity designs / http://www.icd.com/tsd/ dmj@icd.com / my art gallery: http://www.geocities.com/~fractalus/ - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ End of fractint Digest V1 #33 ***************************** To subscribe to fractint Digest, send the command: subscribe fractint-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". 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