From: fractint-owner@xmission.com (fractint Digest) To: fractint-digest@xmission.com Subject: fractint Digest V1 #36 Reply-To: fractint@xmission.com Sender: fractint-owner@xmission.com Errors-To: fractint-owner@xmission.com Precedence: fractint Digest Sunday, October 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 036 In this issue: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point Re: (fractint) Fractal Geometry of Nature -- $ 7.95 ! Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited (fractint) RE: Removing Builtin types...? (was: Integer math) (fractint) Version 20 Re: (fractint) Copyright law (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name? Re: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name? Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal Re: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name? Re: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name? Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited (fractint) test - ignore Re: (fractint) test - ignore Re: (fractint) Copyright law (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo (fractint) if you are removed from the list Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo Re: (fractint) Copyright law See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the fractint or fractint-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:11:17 -0400 (EDT) From: ao950@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Derbyshire) Subject: Re: (fractint) 80-bit long double floating point > >OK fair enough. >So 80 bit numbers are acceptable. >Does DJGPP allow them? It does indeed. This will compile without problems: int decorator; long shot; double or_nothing; long double barreled_shotgun_for_blowing_up_Imps; ... And the long double does have the full 80 bits of precision in calculating, storing and retrieving. - -- .*. Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese] -() < When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix" `*' bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me] Paul Derbyshire ao950@freenet.carleton.ca, http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:19:35 -0400 (EDT) From: ao950@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Derbyshire) Subject: Re: (fractint) Fractal Geometry of Nature -- $ 7.95 ! > >Is the the book by Mandelbrot? >I would Love to have a copy. >Is there a way to ge tit instead of off the net? >Alas. I'm not hooked up to the internet. You're not?? Then my attempts to receive messages through telepathy has succeeded! :-) - -- .*. Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese] -() < When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix" `*' bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me] Paul Derbyshire ao950@freenet.carleton.ca, http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:23:49 -0400 (EDT) From: ao950@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Derbyshire) Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited Try running that fucker in pure DOS (command prompt only from boot menu) and see how Windows stacks up then! Do you have any IDEA what happens to a DOS app running on Winblows, when it doesn't have the focus, and idle sensitivity is at max and a Windows app is also using a lot of cpu? - -- .*. Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese] -() < When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix" `*' bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me] Paul Derbyshire ao950@freenet.carleton.ca, http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:44:29 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu> Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited Paul Derbyshire wrote: > Try running that **** in pure DOS (command prompt only from boot menu) > and see how Windows stacks up then! Been there, done that, got the results (in case you missed them): Fractint Integer under Windows: 26 min 40.47 sec Fractint Float under Windows: 26 min 43.87sec WinFrac Integer: 12 min 17.59 sec WinFrac Float: 12 min 79.98 sec FractInt Integer mode when booted "Safe Mode Command Prompt Only": 8 min 17.68 sec FractInt Float mode when booted "Safe Mode Command Prompt Only": 8 min 5.43 sec FractInt Integer mode when booted "Command Prompt Only": 11 min 16.03 sec FractInt Float mode when booted "Command Prompt Only": 11 min 17.89 sec And watch your language from now on. As it says on the Fractint Wish List home page, "Fractals are a family occupation," and I'm sure no one on this mailing list appreciates your comments in that letter. You can use that kind of language when you E-mail Microsoft, but please don't use it here. I've had more than my share of that in my time, and my use of that A-word was very questionable at best as well. Justin K. Bad(?) Linux slogans: - -- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! -- - -- Linux: The OS of champions! -- - -- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? -- - -- Linux: Because it's free -- - -- Linux: Because you can -- - -- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! -- Justin Kolodziej is 4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 03:33:17 -0400 From: "Robin Y. Millette" Subject: (fractint) RE: Removing Builtin types...? (was: Integer math) Hello! I hope this one will not generate mail only to prove different = remailers act differently... Now with the topic of the day: - -----Original Message----- From: Lee Skinner [SMTP:LeeHSkinner@compuserve.com] Sent: vendredi, 17 octobre 1997 23:35 To: fractint@mail.xmission.com Subject: (fractint) Integer math <>Now another modest proposal. While we are cutting and slashing = code, what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We could include a special formula file with all the removed built-in types. <> <>Modest?? I have many thousands of images implemented with the = built-in types. Sometimes I like to revisit some of them and zoom in on them. = Could some mechanism be devised to somehow declare equivalence of the deleted built-in types with their formulas so that the images would not have to = be regenerated?<> I don't see how that would be so hard to implement as suggested, = although I haven't been thru the code... Maybe I should do that, and get = involved in the coding while I've got djgpp sitting on my hd :) But , how much space/time are we talking about here? Is it worth the = trouble? Ints? yeah since their a great deal of code replication without = much (if any) speed improvements... Is "applying" a parsed formula = slower then a hard coded one? If so, could that be improved as well? = Maybe a "specific" gccfractint? (of gccfract..?) to work within? I'm = just guessing here, maybe getting ahead of myself ..? What are your thoughts on this? (And please, try to make your subject meaningful!) CIAO! ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' Robin Y. Millette ICQ uin: 1266281 Waglo Institution http://www.generation.net/~millette Answer the Bovine Call! DIFT: http://imail.org/Digidome-rc5 - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 03:42:21 -0400 From: "Robin Y. Millette" Subject: (fractint) Version 20 Hello again :) Two quickies this time: when are we hoping to see the new version, and are they plans for a new name? - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 06:44:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Noring Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law ijk@sas.upenn.edu (Ian J Kaplan) wrote: >RBarn0001@aol.com wrote: >> It applies. Several of us fractal artists have been involved in a suit with >> someone using images without permission. The case was settled out of court, >> but the take home lesson is that intellectual properties laws, including >> copyright, do apply. That's why many of us include copyright notices in our >> par files. >> Ron Barnett > Oh, I never intended to suggest that copyright didn't apply. I'm just >looking for clarification of exactly what is copyrightable and what isn't... As I said before, IANAL, but I think common sense with some lay knowledge of IP law tells me the current thinking that using somebody else's PAR file to regenerate and use without modification an image without permission (implicit or explicit) is a copyright violation. And the PAR file itself can, I believe, be protected by copyright so if I reproduce somebody else's PAR file without permission, for example in a book, it would probably be considered by the courts to be a copyright violation totally separate from the image it represents. However, the information contained in the PAR file *cannot* be copyrighted -- it is only the tangible expression of the information which can be copyrighted. (The same goes for formula files -- the information is not copyrightable -- mathematical formulas cannot be copyrighted (I believe, but they might be patentable!), but the tangible expression of the formulas is -- everything in copyright law boils down to "tangible expression".) But taking somebody else's PAR file, and then modifying it so as to make a "new work" image which is different enough from the original (what constitutes a "new work" is something for the courts to decide), would be considered Fair Use. After all, it is recognized in the philosophy of copyright that no work truly stands alone, but has been influenced by and stands atop other works, which is one of the reasons for the Fair Use allowance since the purpose of copyright is to "promote the arts and sciences" and having too draconian of a copyright law would not meet this fundamental Constitutional and simply common sense requirement. In my perspective, substantially changing the color map so as to make the image *clearly look different* than the original may be allowed by the courts (but editing one color to improve an image's appearance but otherwise leaving the general image look similar would probably be a copyright violation.) And the same could be said of zooming and coordinates -- small changes to enhance the image may be a violation, but significantly changing the zoom/coords to create a clearly new work, even with the same color map, may be allowable. The bottom line is -- is it a "new work", or is it "Memorex". :^) I don't think the courts have tackled fractal or similar images yet but when they do, it is important that we of the fractal art community make sure that we educate the court as to the process and nuances of creating fractal images, otherwise the courts may set incorrect precedents -- for example, the Communications Decency Act (CDA) was thrown out partly because those opposing the CDA *made sure* the courts fully understood the many nuances of the Internet which make it unique, and from this understanding the courts were able to correctly apply Constitutional principles. As it stood, the CDA was drafted by those who had *no idea* of what the Internet was, how it worked, and its various nuances. They do now. Just a lay perspective. If you have real questions on Copyright law, go find a good IP attorney and don't rely on what I wrote. Jon Noring _____________________________________________________________________________ OmniMedia Digital Publishing | E-Books: http://www.awa.com/library/omnimedia 9671 S. 1600 West St. | Digital/Fractal Art: (coming soon!) South Jordan, UT 84095 | 801-253-4037 | E-mail: omnimedia@netcom.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:06:39 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu> Subject: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name? Just a very quick (and hopefully not controversial) question: I'm doing a speech on fractals for my Public Speaking class in college, and I'm not sure how to pronounce Benoit Mandelbrot's first name. Is it Ben-wah like it probably would be in French, or as it is spelled in English? (probably a dumb question, since he's French) Justin K. Bad(?) Linux slogans: - -- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! -- - -- Linux: The OS of champions! -- - -- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? -- - -- Linux: Because it's free -- - -- Linux: Because you can -- - -- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! -- Justin Kolodziej is 4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:17:06 -0700 From: Peter Jakubowicz Subject: Re: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name? > (probably a dumb question, since he's French) > Can't help you with the pronunciation (tho I've only heard it pronounced Ben-wah), but if you're giving a talk on him you might be interested to know he was born in Warsaw in 1924 and didn't move to Paris until 1936 (see Gleick's Chaos, p. 87); but I have no idea what country he considers himself to be of, France or Poland. Peter - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:26:21 -0600 From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Paul opined: > No offense but this JAVA/C++ debate is really spamming up the mailing > list. I have what appears to be roughly 150K of "Why not Java?" in my > mbox, making the mail system slow as hell and causing disk shortage. Gak. I agree. Discussion of languages for Fractint or fractal programs is an appropriate subject, but this has gone overboard. I'm not saying the subject is entirely off topic, but I'd like to ask list members to show restraint on this subject so we don't overload the list. Tim - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 97 16:56:50 From: ian.ent@argonet.co.uk (Dr I D Entwistle) Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited On Fri 17 Oct 97 (21:17:23), twegner@phoenix.net wrote: >Justin wrote: > >> I hate to bring this subject up again, but I noticed that in the >whole >> discussion on killing off the DOS version of Fractint, no real >numbers >> indicating speed were mentioned. Some real data for the discussion on the future demise of Integer Fractint. The default 640x480 pixel Fractint M set image generated on my Cyrix 100 Mhz 5x86 cpu(32 Mb RAM) which is used as a second processor on an Acorn RISC PC with mode SF4 under DOS 6.22 is displayed in 1.48 secs(Integer) and 1.82 secs (Float). When Fractint is run from a Windows 95 window the times are 2.09(Integer) and 2.41(Float). As I mainly use Fractint for following the Fractint field and running FOTD I would continue to use v 19.6 for integer until I change processors . For generating my own M set fractals I use the main cpu of my computer, a Dec Strongarm 200 Mhz SA110 32 Bit RISC processor. The 64 bit integer application I use gives the Fractint default image in 0.25 secs and can generate all the M sets upto the 64 bit limit in less than 3 minutes. I certainly support the idea that the loss of the integer facility in Fractint is worth it to add new facilities and I look forward to downloading v 20. Quite the worst piece of fractint data I have come across is my default time for the 640x480 M set image using Winfract 18.2 under Windows 95. Both the Integer and Float images took 120 seconds!!! Ian - -- __ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________ |__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | / | || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines ___________________________/ ian.ent@argonet.co.uk URL http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/ian.ent - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:18:35 -0300 (ADT) From: mctaylor Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Tim Wegner wrote: > what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types > that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We 1) Speed? Wouldn't it be a massive slowdown 2) Lee's concerns are valid 3) Why bother? Just to make it smaller? Any other benefits? 4) Mandelbrot would be left I assume. ;) - -- Michael C. Taylor Programmer, Computing Services, Mount Allison University, Canada sci.fractals FAQ fractal and cryptography archive - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:46:03 -0400 (EDT) From: RBarn0001@aol.com Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal In a message dated 97-10-17 22:27:38 EDT, you write: << Now another modest proposal. While we are cutting and slashing code, what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser? We could include a special formula file with all the removed built-in types. >> Tim, The built-in types have some bailout parameter options. If the built-in types were removed, could the bailout options (e.g. manh, manr) be included? Ron Barnett - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:04:00 -0400 From: "Brock Kevin Nambo" Subject: Re: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name? - -----Original Message----- From: Justin A. Kolodziej <4wg7kolodzie@vmsb.csd.mu.edu> Date: Saturday, October 18, 1997 12:16 PM >Just a very quick (and hopefully not controversial) question: I'm doing >a speech on fractals for my Public Speaking class in college, and I'm >not sure how to pronounce Benoit Mandelbrot's first name. Is it Ben-wah >like it probably would be in French, or as it is spelled in English? While you're answering that, could someone tell me how to pronounce his last name too? You miss things when you only have the Internet to do them over :( >>BKNambo - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------------- | H badger@innocent.com (:P McQ)| UIN: 1936556 ____ __| |=@==== http://come.to/brocks.place |afw?*********** /_ \ / /| | H H H "World Domination Through Trivia" -S3Kitties / /\ \/ / | | H H H Marcher -- Just my imagination -- Nightwatch /_/ \__/ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:18:52 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu> Subject: Re: (fractint) How to pronounce Mandelbrot's name? > While you're answering that, could someone tell me how to pronounce his last > name too? > You miss things when you only have the Internet to do them over :( > > >>BKNambo Mandelbrot is just as it looks: Man-del-brot. Bad(?) Linux slogans: - -- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! -- - -- Linux: The OS of champions! -- - -- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? -- - -- Linux: Because it's free -- - -- Linux: Because you can -- - -- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! -- Justin Kolodziej is 4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:19:27 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu> Subject: Re: (fractint) Why not Java? Tim Wegner wrote: > Paul opined: > > > No offense but this JAVA/C++ debate is really spamming up the mailing > > list. I have what appears to be roughly 150K of "Why not Java?" in my > > mbox, making the mail system slow as hell and causing disk shortage. Gak. > > I agree. Discussion of languages for Fractint or fractal programs is > an appropriate subject, but this has gone overboard. I'm not saying > the subject is entirely off topic, but I'd like to ask list members > to show restraint on this subject so we don't overload the list. > > Tim It's my fault. I posted the original message, and expected one or two replies. Instead, I got tons. We've determined that Java sucks for fractals (at least for now), so I hope we can give the topic a rest for a while. Bad(?) Linux slogans: - -- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! -- - -- Linux: The OS of champions! -- - -- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? -- - -- Linux: Because it's free -- - -- Linux: Because you can -- - -- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! -- Justin Kolodziej is 4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:36:18 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu> Subject: Re: (fractint) DOS vs. Windows (vs. X-Windows?), revisited > > Quite the worst piece of fractint data I have come across is my default > time for the 640x480 M set image using Winfract 18.2 under Windows 95. Both the > Integer and Float images took 120 seconds!!! > Ian 120 seconds????? Did you say 120???? At 640x480???? For the entire Mandelbrot at 150 iterations that you get when you start Fractint? On my Pentium Pro 180, integer takes .66 sec and float takes .83 sec. Wait... let's turn on pixel-by-pixel update... now integer takes 36.03 sec and float takes 36.30 sec. Well, this _might_ explain it, but it should take about 1 minute, not 2, unless Cyrix chips are broken or something. Pixel-by-pixel update DOES slow things down, but not that severely! Bad(?) Linux slogans: - -- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! -- - -- Linux: The OS of champions! -- - -- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? -- - -- Linux: Because it's free -- - -- Linux: Because you can -- - -- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! -- Justin Kolodziej is 4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: 19 Oct 1997 12:13:49 +1000 From: graham@daveney.matra.com.au (Graham Daveney) Subject: (fractint) test - ignore This is a test please ignore - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 00:33:52 -0400 (EDT) From: ao950@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Derbyshire) Subject: Re: (fractint) test - ignore >This is a test please ignore This is a test follow-up, please ignore. - -- .*. Where feelings are concerned, answers are rarely simple [GeneDeWeese] -() < When I go to the theater, I always go straight to the "bag and mix" `*' bulk candy section...because variety is the spice of life... [me] Paul Derbyshire ao950@freenet.carleton.ca, http://chat.carleton.ca/~pderbysh - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:05:09 -0700 From: Andrew Schoonmaker Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law At 10:53 10/16/97 -0600, you wrote: > >In article <3.0.2.32.19971016054700.00722488@mail.eskimo.com> , > Andrew Schoonmaker writes: >> A couple of questions... One, what do you mean by "period 16" and "period >> 64"? > >I'll take a stab at it... each "bud" in M is a basin of attraction. >Inside each "bud" is a point c, where z := z^2 + c is a cycle. The >length of the cycle is the period referred to; we can label the entire >basin of attraction with the period of this point c. The main cardiod >is period 1, the bud along the real axis to the left of the main >cardiod is period 2, the next bud to the left of that along the real >axis is period 4, and so on. The period doubling as you progress down >the real line can be viewed in fractint by looking at the bifurcation >fractal type. The bifurcation fractal type is a visualization of the >dynamics of M along the real line. > >Clearer or muddier now? :) Oh, that's about what I thought you meant. Doesn't Fractint have some internal coloring scheme which displays this? -Andrew (who's started reading Metamagical Themas...) - -- Andrew Schoonmaker (neon@eskimo.com) "This is not a complete. Sentence. This either." -David Moser - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 04:29:17 -0400 From: Thierry Boudet <101355.2112@compuserve.com> Subject: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest proposal Hello Fractal World ! > Version 20 will NOT support integer math, are beta available for bug hunting ? > what would you think about cutting out all built-in fractal types > that can be implemented with a formula in the formula parser? what about speed in "Built-in Vs. Formulas" ? Best regards. Thierry. - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:09:17 -0600 From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo Thierry asked: > are beta available for bug hunting ? At the moment we don't distribute betas in a possibly vain attempt to keep the developers' lives simple > what about speed in "Built-in Vs. Formulas" ? This might be a good project for the benchmark lovers on the list. Generally, formula types are faster than built-in types. The mandelbrot may be an exception because it is implemented in assembler. If you use the debug=90 you will see that the mandelbrot slows up - this makes the mandelbrot use C code typical of most of the built-in types rather than assembler. However, we're not going to jump in and remove built-in types without a lot more thought., if ever. I was just throwing out the idea to see what the reaction would be, and got some good feedback. When you implement a built-in type using a formula, the formula has to reflect the same bailout option as the builtin type. Perhaps we need a standard way to embed the bailout options in formulas. We could define a function bailout() that would be determined by the current bailout function, and called at the bottom of a formula where the current bailout test goes. If we did this, then it would be easier to make a formula behave like a built-in type. The bottom line is that we're not seriously considering removing built-in types now, but we are actively experimenting with removing integer math. Tim - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:37:51 +0200 From: Dirk Meyer Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo Tim Wegner wrote: > Generally, formula types are faster than built-in types. Really? Faster? Then you should improve the formula parser to compile C code and compile Fractint with it :-) - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:37:48 -0600 From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: (fractint) if you are removed from the list From time to time a list member's email address might not work, and all the mail being sent by the list bounces back to me. There are a variety of reasons why this could happen; your local machine might be down or there might be some problem on the net. I have learned not to panic when this happens; when the list first started I unsubscribed a couple of people right away, then realized the problem was very temporary. What I do now is wait a couple of days. If mail is still not going through after a few days, I unsubscribe the non-working email address from the list. If you discover you are off the list, and want to be on it, just resubscribe. Hopefully whatever caused the earlier problem will be over. Unfortunately the same problem that prevents list mail from getting to you also prevents me from sending you a friendly email describing the problem. If I do unsubscribe you I assure you it's not personal. It just means that your email address appears not to be working. It may someday happen that I have to unsubscribe people for other reasons, but that hasn't happened yet; we seem to be a civil bunch Folks can help by unsubscribing when you know you email address is going away. You can only unsubscribe from the same address that you are subscribed under, but if your email address has changed, try unsubscribing the old address anyway - your request comes to my attention and is easily accomplished by hand. If any folks are experienced running lists, I'd be interested to hear how you handle the situation of apparently bad email addresses of subscribers (how long you wait etc. etc.) (Send me email please, don't post to the list because the information won't interest most list members.) So far the list administration task is not too bad. Thanks. The list seems to me to be going well. I'd encourage shy beginners to ask questions. List members have been good about answering questions. I've intentionally invited more technical topics to complement the fractal-art list, so much list traffic is too technical for some people's taste. But do remember that less techical discussion and beginner questions are also welcome. Tim - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:02:15 -0600 From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractint) Integer math is history, and another modest propo Dirk wrote: > Really? Faster? Then you should improve the formula parser to > compile C code and compile Fractint with it :-) You joke, but as I mentioned in another message, the formula parser literally CAN compile formula code, though we don't (yet) let you use it that way. The fact that the parser is so fast (if you have a 387 or equivalent) is a tribute to Chuck Ebbert's expert programming. Your fractal is generated with variables that are kept almost entirely in the coprocessor stack registers where they can be rapidly accessed. Whenever possible, computations are done directly with built-in coprocessor functions. His optimizer avoids whenever possible moving numbers between memory and the coprocessor. C code optimizers are better than they were, but they haven't caught up with Chuck yet Tim - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:39:22 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu> Subject: Re: (fractint) Copyright law Andrew Schoonmaker wrote: > At 10:53 10/16/97 -0600, you wrote: > > > >In article <3.0.2.32.19971016054700.00722488@mail.eskimo.com> , > > Andrew Schoonmaker writes: > >> A couple of questions... One, what do you mean by "period 16" and "period > >> 64"? > > > >I'll take a stab at it... each "bud" in M is a basin of attraction. > >Inside each "bud" is a point c, where z := z^2 + c is a cycle. The > >length of the cycle is the period referred to; we can label the entire > >basin of attraction with the period of this point c. The main cardiod > >is period 1, the bud along the real axis to the left of the main > >cardiod is period 2, the next bud to the left of that along the real > >axis is period 4, and so on. The period doubling as you progress down > >the real line can be viewed in fractint by looking at the bifurcation > >fractal type. The bifurcation fractal type is a visualization of the > >dynamics of M along the real line. > > > >Clearer or muddier now? :) > > Oh, that's about what I thought you meant. Doesn't Fractint have some > internal coloring scheme which displays this? > Yes it does. Just set the inside coloring scheme to per. Then the inside of the M-set is colored according to what period the point settles down to. However, unless you use a lot of iterations, the results aren't very good, and it tends to slow down the calculation immensely. Justin K. Bad(?) Linux slogans: - -- Linux: The OS for truly independent spirits! -- - -- Linux: The OS of champions! -- - -- Linux: Marquette's Web server (www.mu.edu) uses it, shouldn't you? -- - -- Linux: Because it's free -- - -- Linux: Because you can -- - -- Install Linux: Tell Microsoft where to stick it! -- Justin Kolodziej is 4wg7kolodzie@vms.csd.mu.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for using Fractint, The Fractals and Fractint Discussion List Post Message: fractint@xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@xmission.com "unsubscribe fractint" ------------------------------ End of fractint Digest V1 #36 ***************************** To subscribe to fractint Digest, send the command: subscribe fractint-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". 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