From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 01 Jul 1999 09:47:09 EDT In a message dated 6/30/99 8:41:05 PM Central Daylight Time, farseer@swbell.net writes: << Todd, who don't have a nifty nickname yet. >> hi...nifty zopi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 01 Jul 1999 08:36:19 -0600 Traphand, Here's the status page for this bill. Looks like nothing has happened yet. This is a good site, all of us should watch it carefully. www.senate.gov Can do a search on bill number or keyword. Especially note the sponsors - a pack of trouble makers for shore Red Coyote S.1006 SPONSOR: Sen Torricelli, Robert G. (introduced 05/11/99) Jump to: Titles, Status, Committees, Amendments, Cosponsors, Summary TITLE(S): OFFICIAL TITLE AS INTRODUCED: A bill to end the use of conventional steel-jawed leghold traps on animals in the United States. STATUS: Floor Actions ***NONE*** STATUS: Detailed Legislative Status Senate Actions May 11, 99: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Environment and Public Works. STATUS: Congressional Record Page References 05/11/99 Introductory remarks on Measure (CR S5052) COMMITTEE(S): COMMITTEE(S) OF REFERRAL: Senate Environment and Public Works AMENDMENT(S): ***NONE*** COSPONSORS(5): Sen Boxer, Barbara - 05/11/99 Sen Feinstein, Dianne - 05/11/99 Sen Kerry, John F. - 05/11/99 Sen Lautenberg, Frank R. - 05/11/99 Sen Schumer, Charles E. - 06/17/99 SUMMARY: ***NONE*** > -----Original Message----- > From: Traphand@aol.com [SMTP:Traphand@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 6:55 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 > > Has the bill been voted on yet.If not when does it come up for vote.Most > assinine thing i every heard of.let me know if i can help stop another > #$@#$%^&* bill from > passing.Their are on the way to take away your gun rights ,trapping > right.better stop before i start rolling; > > rick petzoldt > long time ago a.m.m. menber > > traphand@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: long, but worth pondering Date: 01 Jul 1999 22:15:31 -0600 I think this is rather interesting. Long, but keep reading >> >>Charlton Heston, speaking on 'Winning the Cultural War,' Tuesday, February >>16, 7:30 pm, Ames Courtroom, Austin Hall. Sponsored by the Harvard Law >>School Forum, a student organization at Harvard Law School. For almost 50 >>years, the Forum has been bringing to HLS noteworthy individuals from all >>fields to engage in exciting and wide-ranging exchanges of ideas. Forum >>programs are open to the public and generally consist of a speech or panel >>discussion followed by a question-and-answer session. >> >>Mr. Heston >> >>I remember my son when he was five, explaining to his kindergarten class >>what his father did for a living. >> >>"My Daddy," he said, "pretends to be people." >> >>There have been quite a few of them. >> >>Prophets from the Old and New Testaments, a couple of Christian saints, >>generals of various nationalities and different centuries, several kings, >>three American presidents, a French cardinal and two geniuses, including >>Michelangelo. >> >>If you want the ceiling re-painted I'll do my best. >> >>It's just that there always seems to be a lot of different fellows up here. >>I'm never sure which one of them gets to talk. Right now, I guess I'm the >>guy. >> >>As I pondered our visit tonight it struck me: If my Creator gave me the >>gift to connect you with the hearts and minds of those great men, then I want >>to use that same gift now to re-connect you with your own sense of liberty ... >>your own freedom of tho ught ... your own compass for what is right. >> >>Dedicating the memorial at Gettysburg, Abraham Lincoln said of America, "We >>are now engaged in a great Civil War, testing whether this nation or any >>nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure." Those words are true >>again. . . I believe that we are again engaged in a great civil war, a >>cultural war that's about to hijack your birthright to think and say what >>lives in your heart. >> >>I fear you no longer trust the pulsing lifeblood of liberty inside you . . . >>the stuff that made this country rise from wilderness into the miracle that >>it is. >> >>Let me back up a little. About a year ago I became president of the >>National Rifle Association, which protects the right to keep and bear arms. I >>ran for office, I was elected, and now I serve ... I serve as a moving target >>for the media who've called me everything from "ridiculous" and "duped" to a " >>brain-injured, senile, crazy old man." I know, I'm pretty old ... but I >>sure Lord ain't senile. >> >>As I have stood in the crosshairs of those who target Second Amendment >>freedoms, I've realized that firearms are not the only issue. >> >>No, it's much, much bigger than that. >> >>I've come to understand that a cultural war is raging across our land, in >>which, with Orwellian fervor, certain acceptable thoughts and speech are >>mandated. >> >>For example, I marched for civil rights with Dr. King in 1963 - long before >>Hollywood found it fashionable. But when I told an audience last year that >>white pride is just as valid as black pride or red pride or anyone else's >>pride, they called me a racist. >> >>I've worked with brilliantly talented homosexuals all my life. But when I >>told an audience that gay rights should extend no further than your rights >>or my rights, I was called a homophobe. >> >>I served in World War II against the Axis powers. But during a speech, when >>I drew an analogy between singling out innocent Jews and singling out >>innocent gun owners, I was called an anti-Semite. >> >>Everyone I know knows I would never raise a closed fist against my country. >> >>But when I asked an audience to oppose this cultural persecution, I was >>compared to Timothy McVeigh. >> >>>From Time magazine to friends and colleagues, they're essentially saying, >>"Chuck, how dare you speak your mind like that? You are using language not >>authorized for public consumption!" >> >>But I am not afraid. If Americans believed in political correctness, we'd >>still be King George's boys - subjects bound to the British crown. >> >>In his book, "The End of Sanity," Martin Gross writes that "blatantly >>irrational behavior is rapidly being established as the norm in almost >>every area of human endeavor. There seem to be new customs, new rules, >>new anti-intellectual theories regularly foisted on us from every >>direction. >> >>Underneath, the nation is roiling. Americans know something without a name >>is undermining the country, turning the mind mushy when it comes to >>separating truth from falsehood and right from wrong. And they don't like >>it." >> >>Let me read a few examples. >> >>At Antioch college in Ohio, young men seeking intimacy with a coed must get >>verbal permission at each step of the process from kissing to petting to >>final copulation ... all clearly spelled out in a printed college >>directive. >> >>In New Jersey, despite the death of several patients nationwide who had >>been infected by dentists who had concealed their AIDs - the state >>commissioner >>announced that health providers who are HIV-positive need not....need >>not. . .tell their patients that they are infected. >> >>At William and Mary, students tried to change the name of the school team >>"The Tribe" because it was supposedly insulting to local Indians, only to >>learn that authentic Virginia chiefs truly like the name. >> >>In San Francisco, city fathers passed an ordinance protecting the rights of >>transvestites to cross-dress on the job, and for transsexuals to have >>separate toilet facilities while undergoing sex change surgery. >> >>In New York City, kids who don't speak a word of Spanish have been placed >>in bilingual classes to learn their three R's in Spanish solely because their >>last names sound Hispanic. >> >>At the University of Pennsylvania, in a state where thousands died at >>Gettysburg opposing slavery, the president of that college officially set >>up segregated dormitory space for black students. >> >>Yeah, I know . . . that's out of bounds now. Dr. King said "Negroes." >> >>Jimmy Baldwin and most of us on the March said "black." But it's a no-no >>now. >> >>For me, hyphenated identities are awkward . . . particularly >>"Native-American. " I'm a Native American, for God's sake. I also happen to >>be a blood-initiated brother of the Miniconjou Sioux. >> >>On my wife's side, my grandson is a thirteenth generation native American . >>. . with the capital letter on "American." >> >>Finally, just last month . . . David Howard, head of the Washington D.C. >>Office of Public Advocate, used the word "niggardly" while talking to >>colleagues about budgetary matters. Of course, "niggardly" means stingy or >>scanty. But within days Howard was forced to publicly apologize and resign. >> >>As columnist Tony Snow wrote: "David Howard got fired because some people >>in public employ were morons who (a)didn't know the meaning of niggardly,' >>(b)didn't know how to use a dictionary to discover the meaning, and (c) >>actually demanded that he apologize for their ignorance. " >> >>What does all this mean? It means that telling us what to think has evolved >>into telling us what to say, so telling us what to do can't be far behind. >> >>Before you claim to be a champion of free thought, tell me: Why did >>political correctness originate on America's campuses? And why do you >>continue to tolerate it? >> >>Why do you, who're supposed to debate ideas, surrender to their >>suppression? >> >>Let's be honest. Who here thinks your professors can say what they really >>believe? >> >>That scares me to death. It should scare you too, that the superstition of >>political correctness rules the halls of reason. >> >>You are the best and the brightest. You, here in the fertile cradle of >>American academia, here in the castle of learning on the Charles River, you >>are the cream. But I submit that you, and your counterparts across the >>land, are the most socially conformed and politically silenced generation >>since >>Concord Bridge. And as long as you validate that ... and abide it ... you >>are - by your grandfathers' standards - cowards. >> >>Here's another example. Right now at more than one major university, Second >>Amendment scholars and researchers are being told to shut up about their >>findings or they'll lose their jobs. Why? Because their research findings >>would undermi ne big-city mayor's pending lawsuits that seek to extort >>hundreds of millions of dollars from firearm manufacturers. >> >>I don't care what you think about guns. But if you are not shocked at that, >>I am shocked at you. Who will guard the raw material of unfettered ideas, >>if not you? Democracy is dialogue! >> >>Who will defend the core value of academia, if you supposed soldiers of >>free thought and expression lay down your arms and plead, "Don't shoot me." >> >>If you talk about race, it does not make you a racist. >> >>If you see distinctions between the genders, it does not make you sexist. >> >>If you think critically about a denomination, it does not make you >>anti-religion. >> >>If you accept but don't celebrate homosexuality, it does not make you a >>homophobe. >> >>Don't let America's universities continue to serve as incubators for this >>rampant epidemic of new McCarthyism. >> >>But what can you do? How can anyone prevail against such pervasive social >>subjugation? The answer's been here all along. >> >>I learned it 36 years ago, on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in >>Washington D.C., standing with Dr. Martin Luther King and two hundred >>thousand people. >> >>You simply ... disobey. >> >>Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course. Nonviolently, absolutely. >> >>But when told how to think or what to say or how to behave, we don't. We >>disobey social protocol that stifles and stigmatizes personal freedom. >> >>I learned the awesome power of disobedience from Dr. King . . . who learned >>it from Gandhi, and Thoreau, and Jesus, and every other great man who led >>those in the right against those with the might. >> >>Disobedience is in our DNA. We feel innate kinship with that disobedient >>spirit that tossed tea into Boston Harbor, that sent Thoreau to jail, that >>refused to sit in the back of the bus, that protested a war in Viet Nam. >> >>In that same spirit, I am asking you to disavow cultural correctness with >>massive disobedience of rogue authority, social directives and onerous laws >>that weaken personal freedom. >> >>But be careful ... it hurts. Disobedience demands that you put yourself at >>risk. Dr. King stood on lots of balconies. >> >>You must be willing to be humiliated ... to endure the modern-day >>equivalent of the police dogs at Montgomery and the water cannons at Selma. >> >>You must be willing to experience discomfort. I'm not complaining, but my >>own decades of social activism have left their mark on me. >> >>Let me tell you a story. A few years back I heard about a rapper named >>Ice-T who was selling a CD called "Cop Killer" celebrating ambushing and >>murdering police officers. It was being marketed by none other than >Time/Warner, >>the biggest entertainment conglomerate in the world. Police across the country >>were outraged. Rightfully so - at least one had been murdered. But >>Time/Warner was stonewalling because the CD was a cash cow for them, and >>the media were tiptoeing around it because the rapper was black. >> >>I heard Time/Warner had a stockholders meeting scheduled in Beverly Hills. >>I owned some shares at the time, so I decided to attend. What I did there was >>against the advice of my family and colleagues. I asked for the floor. To a >>hushed room of a thousand average American stockholders, I simply read the >>full lyrics of "Cop Killer" - every vicious, vulgar, instructional word. >> >>"I GOT MY 12 GAUGE SAWED OFF I GOT MY HEADLIGHTS TURNED OFF I'M ABOUT TO >>BUST SOME SHOTS OFF I'M ABOUT TO DUST SOME COPS OFF..." It got worse, a lot >>worse. I won't read the rest of it to you. But trust me, the room was a sea >>of shocked, frozen, blanched faces. The Time/Warner executives squirmed in >>their chairs and stared at their shoes. They hated me for that. >> >>Then I delivered another volley of sick lyric brimming with racist filth, >>where Ice-T fantasizes about sodomizing two 12-year old nieces of Al and >>Tipper Gore. >> >>"SHE PUSHED HER BUTT AGAINST MY ...." >> >>Well, I won't do to you here what I did to them. Let's just say I left the >>room in echoing silence. When I read the lyrics to the waiting press corps, >>one of them said "We can't print that." ''I know," I replied, "but >>Time/Warner's selling it. >> >>Two months later, Time/Warner terminated Ice-T's contract. I'll never be >>offered another film by Warners, or get a good review from Time magazine. >>But disobedience means you must be willing to act, not just talk. When a >>mugger sues his elderly victim for defending herself... jam the switchboard >>of the district attorney's office. >> >>When your university is pressured to lower standards until 80% of the >>students graduate with honors . . . choke the halls of the board of >>regents. >> >>When an 8-year-old boy pecks a girl's cheek on the playground and gets >>hauled into court for sexual harassment . . . march on that school and >>block its doorways. When someone you elected is seduced by political power >>and betrays you . . . petition them, oust them, banish them. When Time >>magazine's cover portrays millennium nuts as deranged, crazy Christians >>holding a cross as it did last month . . . boycott their magazine and the >>products it advertises. >> >>So that this nation may long endure, I urge you to follow in the hallowed >>footsteps of the great disobediences of history that freed exiles, founded >>religions, defeated tyrants, and yes, in the hands of an aroused rabble in >>arms and a f ew great men, by God's grace, built this country. >> >>If Dr. King were here, I think he would agree. >> >>Thank you. >> >> >> > > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: long, but worth pondering Date: 02 Jul 1999 00:01:52 -0500 Washtahay- No, its really not. It pertains to the study of the fur trade how? LongWalker c. du B. At 10:15 PM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >I think this is rather interesting. Long, but keep reading >>> >>>Charlton Heston, speaking on 'Winning the Cultural War,' Tuesday, February ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Hall (Idaho) and the Mountain Man Museum (Pinedale, WY) Date: 01 Jul 1999 23:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Stopped by both Fort Hall and the Mountain Man Museum during my little 2500 mile odessey of a vacation. Ran out of time to see all the other places I wanted to.... Fort Hall. Interesting place. I'd like to hear other's opinions of the replica. I was impressed by the amount of work it took to build it, and it is obviously maintained very well..... but.... it almost seems that it was built, and then forgotten. A gem never cut and polished, no curator(?), no knowledgable guides(?). I couldna even find a printed history of the post at the gift/book store. They do have a nice saddle (Shoshone ?) that I took about 100 pictures of. While it fell short of what I had imagined... overall I think it's worth stopping in to see... probably a lot better on the weekends if you can catch some of the local skinners in. The Mountain Man Museum. I was very dissapointed in this museum. It was broad brush at it's best. A video from the 70's with Charlie Hanson was interesting, but the whole thing seemed aimed more at tourists than the scholar... which I suppose it is. They had one of Kit's later guns there, and some other guns... only one of which was flint.. an old beat up british smoothie in about .72 cal (or so). Also had some nice examples of hand forged traps, and some good examples of moccs. They do not allow any photographs inside the museum though. Think I need to head fer the Dakota's next vacation. Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Hall (Idaho) and the Mountain Man Museum Date: 02 Jul 1999 05:36:59 -0700 Lee, Have seen what you mentioned and have never said anything, thinking maybe it was me expecting to much, guess my thoughts were like yours. I thought I was spoiled because of fur trade forts like Bent's Fort, Ft. Union, Ft. deChartre, Ft. Osage, Ft. Charlette and the Museum of the Fur Trade to mention a few, thanks for how you felt on your visits. Our governments will take the time, spend our money and then fall short on the least expensive part, providing educational material and knowledgeable guides. Most folks interested in history, reenactments, etc. would give their "I" teeth to work in these places and have fun doing it. And again we the tax payers take it in the shorts. Later YF&B Buck Conner Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write. The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the bi-monthly journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. ________________________________________________________ > On Thu, 01 July 1999, Lee Newbill wrote: > > Stopped by both Fort Hall and the Mountain Man Museum during my little > 2500 mile odessey of a vacation. Ran out of time to see all the other > places I wanted to.... > > Fort Hall. Interesting place. I'd like to hear other's opinions of the > replica. I was impressed by the amount of work it took to build it, and > it is obviously maintained very well..... but.... it almost seems that it > was built, and then forgotten. A gem never cut and polished, no > curator(?), no knowledgable guides(?). I couldna even find a printed > history of the post at the gift/book store. They do have a nice saddle > (Shoshone ?) that I took about 100 pictures of. While it fell > short of what I had imagined... overall I think it's worth stopping in to > see... probably a lot better on the weekends if you can catch some of the > local skinners in. > > The Mountain Man Museum. I was very dissapointed in this museum. It was > broad brush at it's best. A video from the 70's with Charlie Hanson was > interesting, but the whole thing seemed aimed more at tourists than the > scholar... which I suppose it is. They had one of Kit's later guns > there, and some other guns... only one of which was flint.. an old beat up > british smoothie in about .72 cal (or so). Also had some nice examples > of hand forged traps, and some good examples of moccs. They do not allow > any photographs inside the museum though. > > Think I need to head fer the Dakota's next vacation. > > Regards > > Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho > NMLRA member 058863 > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 02 Jul 1999 08:17:43 -0700 A good way to get to know the AMM - it's values and what to expect is do as Buck Conner has suggested. Turtle. _______________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write. The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the bi-monthly journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. ______________________________ > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:53:36 -0500 Jim Colburn > writes: > >Washtahay- > >At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > >>How does one go about joining the AMM? There's only a handful of > >skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. > > Todd, they don't really exist. > > Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great > >scheme to > >drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding > >organization. When people try to contact us to ask about joining, > >we'll > >send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so > >on > >and so on.... it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making > >a > >lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles > >to > >meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said > >they > >would before I figured that one out. > > I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though. One of > >these days I am > >gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John > >Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have > >some > >clues. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 02 Jul 1999 09:01:52 -0700 The publication is not bi-monthly, it is quarterly: February, May, August, September......more or less. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 8:17 AM > A good way to get to know the AMM - it's values and what to expect is do as Buck Conner has suggested. > Turtle. > _______________________ > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write. > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle > 3483 Squires > Conklin, MI 49403 > ATTN: Jon Link > > The subscription for the bi-monthly journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. > ______________________________ > > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:53:36 -0500 Jim Colburn > > writes: > > >Washtahay- > > >At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > > >>How does one go about joining the AMM? There's only a handful of > > >skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. > > > Todd, they don't really exist. > > > Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great > > >scheme to > > >drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding > > >organization. When people try to contact us to ask about joining, > > >we'll > > >send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so > > >on > > >and so on.... it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making > > >a > > >lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles > > >to > > >meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said > > >they > > >would before I figured that one out. > > > I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though. One of > > >these days I am > > >gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John > > >Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have > > >some > > >clues. > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Cyber-Skinners' Rendezvous '99 Pix Date: 02 Jul 1999 17:31:20 EDT Greetings Folks, I have my pix posted from the Cyber-Skinners' Rendezvous up at Stik Wlaker's. You will find them at: http://metrostlouis.com/stiks/cyber-vous.htm Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Canut Du Nord Web site Date: 02 Jul 1999 14:57:42 -0700 Terry, Yeah, it's a great web site, but where's the sound track of you, Scott and Dave singing the official anthem of the Canut Du Nord? "Men, Men, Men, Men,......" :-) Hope you all had fun at Westerns, put some pix up for us flatlanders, will ya'? YMDS , Tassee (Yer Fort Nisqually Gal) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 02 Jul 1999 23:29:10 -0500 Sorry to disillusion you LongWalker but, AMM has something over 500 membe= rs at present, it began with 5 good men. We are approaching 2000 member number= s issued over the years. =20 The information is free, no fine nor fancy plunder is needed. I am disappointed to hear some didn't keep their commitments to meet you, that= is not what we are about. The only way to join is to be sponsored by a party, two bosslopers or one hiveranno. We take sponsorship very seriously, as we are first a brotherhood.=20 Until we've been on the ground with a prospect in all seasons, it seldom happens. We are each personally responsible to all the other brothers fo= r the people we sponsor.=20 There was a time when most anyone could join by asking and that brought a= few problems. Now sponsorship is the only way to join, it is not problem fre= e. Sometimes it's difficult to make location & schedules coincide to where y= ou become well enough acquainted with one or more of us to be invited to joi= n. In some areas there are very active parties and joining up through one of th= em isn't as difficult as happening to know a member and becoming close enoug= h for them to know you well enough to offer membership, and when necessary find you a second sponsor. The best way that can happen is to spend time together o= n the trail. Dean tries to find someone close by to contact when someone requests information about joining. Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't.=20 It is a group of individualists some of whom are pretty set in their ways= .=20 Some winter alone very nicely. =20 To give you an idea of how we're spread out; there is an active party abo= ut 250 miles East of me, there is one other member within 100 miles North, and o= ne more another 100 miles on up the road. Its 300 miles South and 500 miles= West to find more. I don't get to see any of them often. Joining is often no= t something easily planned, those who belong find their way to us sooner or later. =20 John...=20 Hiveranno, #656 At 09:53 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: >Washtahay- >At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: >>How does one go about joining the AMM?=A0=A0 There's only a handful of >skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. > Todd, they don't really exist.=A0=20 > Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great scheme to >drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding >organization.=A0 When people try to contact us to ask about joining, we'= ll >send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so on >and so on....=A0 it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making= a >lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles to >meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said the= y >would before I figured that one out.=A0=20 > I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though.=A0 One of these days= I am >gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John >Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have s= ome >clues. > Unless you already have those great trade goods to part with, or a lot = of >time to waste trying to find the mythical AMM, read Nasitir and Drummond >and maybe Anderson's journals-still frustrating at times but the results >are likely to be more tangible! >LongWalker c. du B. >=20 If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mountainman333@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 03 Jul 1999 10:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Speaking of the AMM could some one let me know the URL to there web site I seem to have lost it , Im starting a web page and want to add it to my links Thanx in advance. Mike S. http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 03 Jul 1999 08:27:19 -0700 Go to my web site for several links you maybe interested in, including the AMM and others. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Buck Conner On Sat, 03 July 1999, mountainman333@webtv.net wrote: > > Speaking of the AMM could some one let me know the URL to there web site > I seem to have lost it , Im starting a web page and want to add it to > my links Thanx in advance. Mike S. > > > http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 03 Jul 1999 08:28:23 -0700 Go to my web site for several links you maybe interested in, including the AMM and others. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Buck Conner On Sat, 03 July 1999, mountainman333@webtv.net wrote: > > Speaking of the AMM could some one let me know the URL to there web site > I seem to have lost it , Im starting a web page and want to add it to > my links Thanx in advance. Mike S. > > > http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dammiller@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 03 Jul 1999 11:38:47 -0500 Mythocal???? Hmmmmmmmm........ Then I just spent that last few days up in the Tetons with GHOSTS..... Even sat with a founding member (had a mythocal picture taken with him)...... But I'm glad that I have been set straight on this issue........wouldn't want to be associated with hoodoo's...... AND I'm not a member......YET........ just was invited to partake of the festivities and all.......boy them ghosts do know how to party!!!!! Dave ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Any Alabama Brothers out there? Date: 03 Jul 1999 12:45:18 -0700 Dear Sirs, Are there any Brothers here from Alabama? I'd like to hook my dad up with some guys in his area. Mainly, I'd like to tell him about any rendezvous or living history events that he could attend as a flatlander. He's a modern muzzleloader, but has gotten interested in "going primitive" since I've started doing it. He's attended one event at Fort Toulouse, but they wouldn't let him watch the shooting competition since he didn't have period attire. ($%#$@ NMLRA!) I'm making him an outfit so that won't happen again. He's in Mobile, but it's nothing to him to travel to Louisiana or Florida or Georgia. Any info you could provide I would be very grateful for. Your Most Humble Servant, Tassee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Any Alabama Brothers out there? Date: 03 Jul 1999 16:33:18 EDT Tassee (and other interested parties) here are some events in the AL,LA,FL and GA areas, culled from Smoke and Fire News and The Territorial Dispatch: ALABAMA: OCT 1-3 - 6th Annual Colonial Isle Dauphine, Dauphine Island Fort Gaines Historical Site 334/861-6992 NOVEMBER 3-7 - Alabama Frontier Days Fort Toulouse/Jackson Park, Wetumpka, AL, contact Fort Toulouse Foundation, 2521 W. Fort Toulouse Road Wetumpka, AL 36093 FLORIDA: JUNE 18-20 Spanish Night Watch, St. Augustine, Jon Williams 904/797-7217 or Rick or Lee 904/794-7682 GEORGIA: OCTOBER 15-17 - 10th Annual Rendezvous & Fun Shoot, Lexington, GA Sponsored by Beaver Swap Primitives, NO OTHER INFO LISTED SOUNDS LIKE LOTS OF ACTIVITIES FOR EVERYBODY. pan throw, shooting, potluck dinners, wood provided, ice avail. tobacco spitting, etc. contact Smoke & Fire News, maybe they have correct contact info Hope this helps, Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mountainman333@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 03 Jul 1999 21:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Thanx, Buck I ll do just that!!! P.S. I always enjoy the list guys!!! Mike S. http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Any Alabama Brothers out there? Date: 03 Jul 1999 22:06:53 EDT Tassee, Forgot to include this info in the previous post: there are also lots of events in the TN, MO, AR and NM areas. If you think your dad might be interested, let me know off-list and I'll get the info to you. Also, he might be interested in a rag like the Smoke & Fire News. Info on their stuff is available online at The Smoke & Fire Co. Not only a good newspaper, but also good plunder available from them. yhs, Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Happy Birthday Date: 04 Jul 1999 11:21:30 -0600 Happy 223rd birthday, Cousin Jonathan! --Janey Canuck (who just turned 132 a few days ago) agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Tomahawk & Long Rifle journal Date: 04 Jul 1999 12:37:43 -0700 List readers, Have talked to Bill Cunningham (editor of Tomahawk & Long Rifle) and I stand corrected on number of journals published each year, with additional subscriptions of interested parties we may get to be a bi-monthly publication in time. But for now you will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. Later Buck Conner Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. ________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Laughlin" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Happy 4th. Date: 04 Jul 1999 13:07:36 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BEC61E.2FEF8F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward. Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot of what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't just fight the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government! Some of us take these liberties so much for granted...We shouldn't. So, take a couple of minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid . . . LET'S ALL REMEMBER THAT FREEDOM IS "NEVER FREE"!!!! Author unknown. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BEC61E.2FEF8F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Pat Laughlin <pat1@pe.net>
To:=20 <Tom Laughlin <pat1@pe.net>
Date: Sunday, = July 04,=20 1999 12:44 PM
Subject: Happy 4th.

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed=20 the
Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by = the=20 British as traitors, and tortured
before they died.  Twelve had = their=20 homes ransacked and burned.  Two
lost their sons serving in the=20 Revolutionary Army, another had two
sons captured.

Nine of the = 56=20 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the
Revolutionary=20 War.

They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, = and=20 their
sacred honor.  What kind of men were = they?

Twenty-four were=20 lawyers and jurists.  Eleven were merchants, nine
were farmers = and large=20 plantation owners; men of means, well
educated.

But they = signed the=20 Declaration of Independence knowing full well
that the penalty would = be death=20 if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy = planter and=20 trader, saw his
ships swept from the seas by the British Navy.  = He sold=20 his home and
properties to pay his debts, and died in = rags.

Thomas=20 McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to
move his = family=20 almost constantly.  He served in the Congress without
pay, and = his=20 family was kept in hiding.  His possessions were taken
from him, = and=20 poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties = of=20 Dillery, Hall, Clymer,
Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and=20 Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted = that the=20 British
General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for=20 his
headquarters.  He quietly urged General George Washington to = open
fire.  The home was destroyed, and Nelson died=20 bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties = destroyed.  The=20 enemy
jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John = Hart was=20 driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their
13 children = fled for=20 their lives.  His fields and his gristmill were
laid to waste. = For more=20 than a year he lived in forests and caves,
returning home to find his = wife=20 dead and his children vanished.  A
few weeks later he died from=20 exhaustion and a broken heart.

Norris and Livingston suffered = similar=20 fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American=20 Revolution.

These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. = They=20 were
soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but=20 they
valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering,=20 they
pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm = reliance=20 on
the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to=20 each
other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred = honor."

They=20 gave you and me a free and independent America.  The = history
books never=20 told you a lot of what happened in the Revolutionary War.
We didn't = just=20 fight the British. We were British subjects at that
time and we = fought our=20 own government!

Some of us take these liberties so much for = granted...We=20 shouldn't.

So, take a couple of minutes while enjoying your 4th = of July=20 holiday
and silently thank these patriots.  It's not much to ask = for=20 the
price they paid . . .

LET'S ALL REMEMBER THAT FREEDOM IS=20 "NEVER FREE"!!!!

Author = unknown.
------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BEC61E.2FEF8F20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: FWD: Fw: send this on Date: 04 Jul 1999 18:48:10 -0600 DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants < This individual is trying to get one million hits on his web page > > > within 100 days. He is then going to send the address to some > > > legislators to show there are people interested in continuing to > own > > > guns. Just go to his web site to show a hit. > > > > > > http://home.talkcity.com/ArenaBlvd/mar_1/fight_4_2_amnd_rites.html > >> > > Jan and Bill > = > = RFC822 header Received: from smtp2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.32] by mail.market1.com = with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id ABB37120208; Sun, 04 Jul 1999 12:45:07 -0600 Received: from oemcomputer (dal-qbu-zok-vty38.as.wcom.net [216.192.243.38]= ) by smtp2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20828; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907041845.OAA20828@smtp2.mindspring.com> From: "Jan and Bill" To: "Dave VanderKratts" , "Don & Phyllis Keas" , "Gary Hertzog" , "Jeremy Kline" , "John Eastwood" , "Larry Erpenbach" , "Phil & Connie LaLena" Subject: Fw: send this on Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:43:39 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RCPT-TO: X-UIDL: 431 Status: U = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 04 Jul 1999 19:12:01 -0600 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm/index.html -----Original Message----- Speaking of the AMM could some one let me know the URL to there web site I seem to have lost it , Im starting a web page and want to add it to my links Thanx in advance. Mike S. http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mountainman333@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Joining the AMM-get the journal Date: 04 Jul 1999 21:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Thanx Ron, I appreciate the reply !!!!!!! Mike S. http://community.webtv.net/mountainman333/TheBuckskinnersCabin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Answers to: The AMM Journal & Joining Date: 05 Jul 1999 10:43:38 -0700 Thanks to Buck & John - they have given interested parties the resource and general information on the AMM. Turtle. ______________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov. Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk food. Later Buck Conner AMM - Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ______________________________________________________________ AMM has something over 500 members at present, it began with 5 good men. We are approaching 2000 member numbers issued over the years. The only way to join is to be sponsored by a party, two bosslopers or one hiveranno. We take sponsorship very seriously, as we are first a brotherhood. Until we've been on the ground with a prospect in all seasons, it seldom happens. We are each personally responsible to all the other brothers for the people we sponsor. There was a time when most anyone could join by asking and that brought a few problems. Now sponsorship is the only way to join, it is not problem free. Sometimes it's difficult to make location & schedules coincide to where you become well enough acquainted with one or more of us to be invited to join. In some areas there are very active parties and joining up through one of them isn't as difficult as happening to know a member and becoming close enough for them to know you well enough to offer membership, and when necessary find you a second sponsor. The best way that can happen is to spend time together on the trail. Dean Rudy tries to find someone close by to contact when someone requests information about joining. Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't. It is a group of individualists some of whom are pretty set in their ways. Some winter alone very nicely. To give you an idea of how we're spread out; there is an active party about 250 miles East of me, there is one other member within 100 miles North, and one more another 100 miles on up the road. Its 300 miles South and 500 miles West to find more. I don't get to see any of them often. Joining is often not something easily planned, those who belong find their way to us sooner or later. John Kramer If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canut Du Nord Web site Date: 05 Jul 1999 23:00:43 -0700 I'll talk to Dave about that . hey i stared down a bear sat at Nat. 15-20 feet away . what a rush! YMHS, Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canut Du Nord Web site Date: 05 Jul 1999 23:49:39 -0700 Yeah? Think about how the poor bear felt! (sorry, couldn't resist!) Medicine Bear terry l landis wrote: > I'll talk to Dave about that . hey i stared down a bear sat at Nat. 15-20 > feet away . what a rush! > YMHS, > Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canut Du Nord Web site Date: 06 Jul 1999 12:30:37 -0700 terry l landis wrote: > I'll talk to Dave about that . hey i stared down a bear sat at Nat. 15-20 > feet away . what a rush! Moose-Moose, For crying out loud! Are we gona have to wait until it comes out in Field and Stream before we hear the details?! I had a great time up there, kinda sorry I missed the bear. Sure met a lot of nice folks and saw some beautiful scenery anyway. So tell the story! I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 06 Jul 1999 20:44:22 -0600 Dave, Have you developed those pictures yet ??? could be an interesting picture if it turns up showing you with your arm around a tree or something... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: MtMan-List: the bear at Nat. Date: 07 Jul 1999 10:41:22 -0700 Saturday morning we got up and packed out all the gear we wouldn't need for the last day and took it out. a couple of miles away there was a set of teepee rings so we went to investigate them . when we got back it was hot . so i went down to the creek to wash pots and bring up some water to boil. well i got done washing and i stuck my head in the creek for some heat relief. the whole time i was down there i didn't feel right,but i couldn't put my finger on why . so when i stood up and shook the water offin my head i looked over to the other bank and looking at me over a big log was this bear. all i could see at first was the top of it's nose , eyes and ears. my first thought was "thats a bear!"then it was "shit thats a small bear!" so i reached down -never taking my eyes off of that bear- picked up my hat and put it on. i then turned around and got the pots of water i had and stood up and looked at that bear. it was sniffing around right where i first saw it .i walked half way to the hill and turned around still there and no momma yet. i walked up to the bottom of the hill and turned around, still there. this hill is about20-30 ft high and i got up it in 10 steps and didn't spill a drop. my booshway is sitting at the top in the shade and when i got to the top i hollered at him "hey dave f%$&in Ephraim" and he said "huh?" and i said a little louder " f%$&in Ephraim" he said " what?" and i said " a god damned bear" and pointed to the spot . we let the rest of camp know so it could be chased off because of the horses and all. and then Dave says yer name is Ephraim now. you earned it so now you got it. and then he said "what did you learn today?" i said never leave camp with out a loaded gun. what a trip for this pilgrim to his first rocky mountain rendezvous. that bear was down where dirty shirt was camped the day before . stood about 4ft tall and was the most beautiful shade of copper/ blonde. shining times i shall never forget. in those rocky mountains my sense of brotherhood was born. YMHS, " Ephraim" Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the bear at Nat. Date: 07 Jul 1999 15:13:44 EDT Ephraim: Where exactly are these tipi rings? These are the kinds of things I like to seek out and make a vacation of going to see them. We frequently search out petroglyph sites, here in the west and I then bring my family to see them. Tipi rings would be very interesting to us. You can trust us not to molest them in any way and keep them a secret from people who may. If you don't want the whole world to know, contact me off-list, if you don't mind. Thanks, Carp - kc764@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the bear at Nat. Date: 07 Jul 1999 13:35:41 -0700 "Ephraim", Your lucky that this little guy's mamma didn't show or even some of it's friends, I have talked to the US Forestry folks that work the bears in several of the western National Parks, and that type of encounter I'm told can get real nasty - real fast. Personally have never had that experience, but Mike Moore, Buck Conner and Ken "Quill" Smith of the Baker Party have; Ken ran into a mother and her baby just a few weeks ago from what I understand at a party camp in South Park, CO. At the Rocky Mountain College held in this area it's not uncommon for such sightings, as is the area of this years Nationals. Thank you for sharing your story, one that I'm sure will be remembered and told many times in your travels. Turtle. ________________________ > On Wed, 07 July 1999, terry l landis wrote: > Saturday morning we got up and packed out all the gear we wouldn't need > for the last day and took it out. a couple of miles away there was a set > of teepee rings so we went to investigate them . when we got back it was > hot . so i went down to the creek to wash pots and bring up some water to > boil. well i got done washing and i stuck my head in the creek for some > heat relief. the whole time i was down there i didn't feel right,but i > couldn't put my finger on why . so when i stood up and shook the water > offin my head i looked over to the other bank and looking at me over a > big log was this bear. all i could see at first was the top of it's nose > , eyes and ears. my first thought was "thats a bear!"then it was "shit > thats a small bear!" so i reached down -never taking my eyes off of that > bear- picked up my hat and put it on. i then turned around and got the > pots of water i had and stood up and looked at that bear. it was sniffing > around right where i first saw it .i walked half way to the hill and > turned around still there and no momma yet. i walked up to the bottom of > the hill and turned around, still there. this hill is about20-30 ft high > and i got up it in 10 steps and didn't spill a drop. my booshway is > sitting at the top in the shade and when i got to the top i hollered at > him "hey dave f%$&in Ephraim" and he said "huh?" and i said a little > louder " f%$&in Ephraim" he said " what?" and i said " a god damned bear" > and pointed to the spot . we let the rest of camp know so it could be > chased off because of the horses and all. and then Dave says yer name is > Ephraim now. you earned it so now you got it. and then he said "what did > you learn today?" i said never leave camp with out a loaded gun. > what a trip for this pilgrim to his first rocky mountain rendezvous. > that bear was down where dirty shirt was camped the day before . stood > about 4ft tall and was the most beautiful shade of copper/ blonde. > shining times i shall never forget. in those rocky mountains my sense of > brotherhood was born. > YMHS, > " Ephraim" > Terry Landis Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700 I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing it the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the correct way! Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 18:20:55 EDT Munroe: You can make char cloth easily by putting some 100% cotton or flax material in a tight can, like a steel film can, with a small hole in the top from, say, an ice pick, or the tip of a knife. This material can not have fire proof treatment, for obvious reasons. Put the can in a camp fire or a propane bbq, not on your home stove, so your wife doesn't kill you and leave it there until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes or an hour. This "burns" the cloth in an oxygen free environment, thereby not completely consuming the material and making it suseptable to catching a spark. As far as your flint; yes you get the best results from a sharp edge. Use your fire steel to knap the edge of the rock, by striking it and knocking a sharp edge into the rock. By the way, other rocks, besides flint, will create a spark, e.g., quartz, that I pick up out here in the west all the time, sparks very well. Also, you will notice that some rocks have "hot spots" and you will learn to know your rocks. These "hot spots" are where you will want to continue to strike, for best results. Your fire steel needs to be high carbon steel. Anybody who makes them, commercially, will make them from high carbon steel, or they won't sell many, because they won't work. Make a "nest" from dried grass, dead bark from a cedar tree, or something along those lines. Put your rock on top of a piece of your charcloth, strike the rock and catch a spark on it. Then, place the glowing cloth in the middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame and place it in you prepared kindling where you want your fire. OSHA warning; this will be hot so don't hold onto it very long (so we don't get sued). Hope this helps. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 17:35:45 -0500 Monroe, What you are trying to do is scrape off some of the steel with the stone. The steel should be hardened. Some modern tool steels don't spark well. If you sometimes get spark and sometimes don't it is probably more your technique than fault of the stuff you're using. It helps to have a sharp edge though if your technique is good you can get spark from a pretty dull edge. The angle of attack is more important than how hard you hit. Again, think of the stone scraping a layer off the steel. Think of the angles you use when sharpening a knife. I usually hold the flint (more or less) stationary with a tiny piece of char on top and strike the steel against the stone edge. I have used a fifty cent size piece of stone for months at a time when I was a hand rolled cigarette chain smoker and lit every smoke or fire with flint & steel. A good flint doesn't wear out in a few strokes. I have been using the same steel since '76, it's worn but still works. When I was only striking a light I usually caught a spark with a single strike. Now several years later (and out of daily practice) it usually takes a few strokes to do the same. Back in '79 I was on a ride in Wyoming with a large AMM brigade. One of the graybeards was complaining about not being able to strike a spark during a break to rest the horses. First he thought it was his stone so I took it and struck spark, then he figured it was his striker, it too worked for me, then he figured it was his char and that worked for me as well with his stone and striker. The point is I was in practice and he wasn't. Practice makes perfect. Technique will suffer with lack of use. John... At 01:46 PM 7/7/99 -0700, you wrote: >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing it >the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 07 Jul 1999 17:46:33 -0500 John Kramer wrote: > > Sorry to disillusion you LongWalker but, AMM has something over 500 members at > present, it began with 5 good men. We are approaching 2000 member numbers > issued over the years. > > The information is free, no fine nor fancy plunder is needed. I am > disappointed to hear some didn't keep their commitments to meet you, that is > not what we are about. > > The only way to join is to be sponsored by a party, two bosslopers or one > hiveranno. We take sponsorship very seriously, as we are first a > brotherhood. > Until we've been on the ground with a prospect in all seasons, it seldom > happens. We are each personally responsible to all the other brothers for the > people we sponsor. > > There was a time when most anyone could join by asking and that brought a few > problems. Now sponsorship is the only way to join, it is not problem free. > > Sometimes it's difficult to make location & schedules coincide to where you > become well enough acquainted with one or more of us to be invited to join. > In > some areas there are very active parties and joining up through one of them > isn't as difficult as happening to know a member and becoming close enough for > them to know you well enough to offer membership, and when necessary find > you a > second sponsor. The best way that can happen is to spend time together on the > trail. > > Dean tries to find someone close by to contact when someone requests > information about joining. Sometimes that works out and sometimes it > doesn't. > It is a group of individualists some of whom are pretty set in their ways. > Some winter alone very nicely. > > To give you an idea of how we're spread out; there is an active party about > 250 > miles East of me, there is one other member within 100 miles North, and one > more another 100 miles on up the road. Its 300 miles South and 500 miles West > to find more. I don't get to see any of them often. Joining is often not > something easily planned, those who belong find their way to us sooner or > later. > > John... > Hiveranno, #656 > > At 09:53 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Washtahay- > >At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > >>How does one go about joining the AMM? There's only a handful of > >skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. > > Todd, they don't really exist. > > Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great scheme to > >drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding > >organization. When people try to contact us to ask about joining, we'll > >send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so on > >and so on.... it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making a > >lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles to > >meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said they > >would before I figured that one out. > > I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though. One of these days I am > >gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John > >Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have some > >clues. > > Unless you already have those great trade goods to part with, or a lot of > >time to waste trying to find the mythical AMM, read Nasitir and Drummond > >and maybe Anderson's journals-still frustrating at times but the results > >are likely to be more tangible! > >LongWalker c. du B. > > > If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. > john Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 18:00:59 -0700 Not specifically mentioned below is that most people hold the flint in one hand, and strike it with the steel, using a glancing blow, as if you were shaking a fly off the fist holding the steel. This will shave sparks off as noted, which land on the char cloth held either above or below the flint (whatever seems more secure, and after noting where your stroke sends the most sparks). Also, I have made char in a lot less than 45 minutes, I suppose it depends on the heat of the fire. The main amount of smoke gets over with in 5-10 minutes; there is some question whether you can "overcook" the char, but in any case, after the smoke dies away, allow to cool before inspecting. It will probably work if it is dark brown to fully black. If it will not take a spark, test with a match -- if it will not catch, your cloth may have had fire retardent added (washing thoroughly may help). Any amount of synthetic fiber will also gum up the works with a plastic coating. Use a long, slowly building breath of air to nurse your glowing char into a flame -- don't huff and puff. Pat Quilter. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:21 PM Munroe: You can make char cloth easily by putting some 100% cotton or flax material in a tight can, like a steel film can, with a small hole in the top from, say, an ice pick, or the tip of a knife. This material can not have fire proof treatment, for obvious reasons. Put the can in a camp fire or a propane bbq, not on your home stove, so your wife doesn't kill you and leave it there until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes or an hour. This "burns" the cloth in an oxygen free environment, thereby not completely consuming the material and making it suseptable to catching a spark. As far as your flint; yes you get the best results from a sharp edge. Use your fire steel to knap the edge of the rock, by striking it and knocking a sharp edge into the rock. By the way, other rocks, besides flint, will create a spark, e.g., quartz, that I pick up out here in the west all the time, sparks very well. Also, you will notice that some rocks have "hot spots" and you will learn to know your rocks. These "hot spots" are where you will want to continue to strike, for best results. Your fire steel needs to be high carbon steel. Anybody who makes them, commercially, will make them from high carbon steel, or they won't sell many, because they won't work. Make a "nest" from dried grass, dead bark from a cedar tree, or something along those lines. Put your rock on top of a piece of your charcloth, strike the rock and catch a spark on it. Then, place the glowing cloth in the middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame and place it in you prepared kindling where you want your fire. OSHA warning; this will be hot so don't hold onto it very long (so we don't get sued). Hope this helps. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 18:54:03 -0700 Monroe, It is the steel and not the rock that cause the sparks. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:20 PM > Munroe: > You can make char cloth easily by putting some 100% cotton or flax material > in a tight can, like a steel film can, with a small hole in the top from, > say, an ice pick, or the tip of a knife. This material can not have fire > proof treatment, for obvious reasons. Put the can in a camp fire or a > propane bbq, not on your home stove, so your wife doesn't kill you and leave > it there until it stops smoking, about 45 minutes or an hour. This "burns" > the cloth in an oxygen free environment, thereby not completely consuming the > material and making it suseptable to catching a spark. > > As far as your flint; yes you get the best results from a sharp edge. Use > your fire steel to knap the edge of the rock, by striking it and knocking a > sharp edge into the rock. By the way, other rocks, besides flint, will > create a spark, e.g., quartz, that I pick up out here in the west all the > time, sparks very well. Also, you will notice that some rocks have "hot > spots" and you will learn to know your rocks. These "hot spots" are where > you will want to continue to strike, for best results. > > Your fire steel needs to be high carbon steel. Anybody who makes them, > commercially, will make them from high carbon steel, or they won't sell many, > because they won't work. > > Make a "nest" from dried grass, dead bark from a cedar tree, or something > along those lines. Put your rock on top of a piece of your charcloth, strike > the rock and catch a spark on it. Then, place the glowing cloth in the > middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame and place it in > you prepared kindling where you want your fire. OSHA warning; this will be > hot so don't hold onto it very long (so we don't get sued). > > Hope this helps. > > Carp > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 22:16:13 -0500 Munroe To clarify another post, the flint scrapes tiny pieces of steel from = the striker which are rendered essentially molten by the friction of the = scraping action of the flint on the steel. These tiny pieces of hot = steel are the sparks that will ignite charred fabric or wood. A good = sharp flint and a good steel will produce plenty of sparks virtually = every strike if the proper angle and speed are used . Getting a good = shower of sparks is accomplished the same way a musician gets to = Carnegie Hall....practice, practice, practice. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:46 PM > I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of = flint > and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have = been > trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I = get a > shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get = any. I > can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing = it > the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear = out the > edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I = can > find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In > between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the > correct way! >=20 > Munroe Crutchley > Grants Pass, OR >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and steel info Date: 07 Jul 1999 20:29:04 -0700 Thanks everyone for the info on firemaking; sounds like I need to put in some time at it. Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 03:46:19 GMT On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700, you wrote: >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have = been >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get= a >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. = I >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing = it >the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out = the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > Never have had time to finish this darn thing.... This is from March, 1998......just wanted to show Dean I still lurk a lot around here, but don't post much any more. BTW, if anyone wants the pics of the New Orleans price guide from 1831, I finally figured out how to send them in a painless fashion. Several people have asked for this information recently. The following is a reprint of an article I posted in early October. The finished article was lost in a hard disk crash around Thanksgiving, and I have not recreated it. This is based on several years of experience, and an exchange on the Usenet group soc.history.living with several folks who also frequent this mailing list. Scott, see if you can find your own words in this! I'm sorry, but the article is NOT complete. If you've never made a flint and steel fire before, here's the gist of it. The following is a DRAFT copy. The actual article is only about half done. I=92m retaining the copyright for this article, since I hope to have it published for profit and make millions of dollars when Steven Spielberg turns this into a major movie.. The final article had all the contributors listed. I don't have them here, but pulled all the 1996-1997 exchanges off of Deja News by doing a search for "fire starting". When I rewrite this, full credit to all contributors will be given, especially for the info on charwood. The article needs a lot of wordsmithing. I have not done much except spell check it, so it is obviously not ready to go yet. =20 ---------------------------- There=92s a lot of ways to start fires. I=92m going to cover techniques I=92ve used off and on over the last 19 years. I=92ll also cover a few techniques that I do NOT have a lot of experience with, but other folks do I=92ll be straight with you when I report on something someone else recommends, but I=92ve only experimented with. If I don=92t like = the method, I=92ll tell you, but understand it may be because I don=92t have the technique down due to enough experimentation. Try it yourself. =20 We=92re going to cover charcloth making, striker selection, flint selection, proper tinder and then tie all this together into proper flint and steel firestarting. Char is usually made from cloth, but several people I corresponded with have used different natural materials. This will be covered later on. We=92ll also cover how to select and use a firebow, how to use your shootin=92 iron as a fire starter, char wood making and use, the burning lens (aka magnifying glass), and we=92ll end it with what I diplomatically call =93shortcut=94 (others may call it cheating) techniques some scum-sucking weasles use to get an edge on the competition, just so you have an idea of what to look out for. Charcloth Making =46orget all the stuff they told you in Boy Scouts about using dryer lint, picking up a rock and striking sparks, or rubbing two sticks together. It=92s hogwash. If you follow the recommendations in this article, make a batch or two of charcloth so you can see what is =93good=94 versus =93bad=94 select a flint as described, and have a good striker, you=92ll have flame in less than 15 seconds almost every time you try. My personal best at fire starting is 8.1 seconds, and that took third place.=20 Char is important because you need some material that will catch the sparks from your striker. You can have a marvelous striker and flint, and chuck sparks into dryer lint until the cows come home. And they come home about the time you have a spark catch in the dryer lint. =20 The reason you char cloth is to essentially turn it into pure carbon, kinda like a super charcoal briquette. You want a material that chars well, and has a lot of surface roughness to hold the spark from the striker until it can ignite the cloth. Dryer lint, et. al, has a much higher combustion temperature to keep a coal glowing than does char cloth. That=92s why it is so hard to start a fire this way. Good char cloth will grab a spark as soon as it hits. Start with 100 percent cotton or linen fabric. Make absolutely sure there are no synthetics. These will melt and burn and leave a fire-proof coating over what remains of the fabric. It also makes an awful mess of your char tin. Wool has its own fire retardant. Lore has it that you can=92t make char cloth out of wool, and I always believed it until I sat down to write these lines. I=92ve always accepted that wool won=92t work, but you know, I have never tired it. I will have to take a shot at it next time I make up a batch of char. I=92ve heard that using cloth with patterns makes inferior char cloth. In my experience, it doesn=92t seem to matter. New fabric such as left overs from shirt making need to be washed several times before you char them. Most material like this contains a something called a sizing, which is fine clay impregnated in the cloth to make it smoother and easier to cut for patterns. You can make char cloth from it, but the sizing leaves a bit more ash in the tin, and sometimes keeps a spark for catching as it seems to have to burn through the sizing first. Pure canvas from the sewing store works pretty good after being well washed. Flannel works well too if you make sure you do NOT get the flame-retardant kind. All of these things will work. To make char cloth you can=92t put out without water, you have to use a special type of cloth. Forget about blue jeans, cotton scraps, flannel, canvas, etc. The best stuff I have ever found for char cloth is called Monk's Cloth (available at almost any sewing center, at least here in Texas). It has 5-9 threads in the warp and the woof (?) (these are sewing terms I really don't understand, but it means the top layer weaves in and out of the bottom layer {going sideways of course} kinda like the plastic webbing you have on your aluminum framed lawn chairs, except this is all cotton, and is a lot thinner weave. Monks cloth looks a lot like a coarser weave of the gauze you=92d find in a first aid kit. For those of you who are wondering, I=92ve tried using gauze for char also. It crumbles too easily compared to the Monk=92s cloth for my taste, but catches a spark immediately. If I ever get access to a scanner, I=92ll upload a picture to the web. How do you make char cloth? Easy. Get some 100% linen or cotton, or if you=92ve been paying attention, get some Monk=92s cloth ( wash it once or twice first-a yard of this stuff will start hundreds of fires), cut it up into about inch and a half squares, no larger. When you have a decent handful of pieces, put them in your char tin. I fill my tin (one of the old, large shoe polish tins) so that the pile sticks out about three-eighths of an inch before putting the lid on. This compresses the cloth a little, but I=92ve never noticed a problem . If you really stuff the tin full, you=92ll find a lot of the material in the center is not properly charred. A little compression is ok, a lot is bad. A char tin is nothing more than a small metal can that has a tight fitting metal lid. A shoe polish tin or a pint paint can works great. The pint paint can doubles as a container when making char wood. We=92ll cover that later. Clean out all residue from the previous inhabitant of the can before your start. The real secret is to have a very tight fitting lid, and to close it down tight after you put in the cloth. Next, take a small nail, about a one inch finishing nail and poke a hole in the lid. =20 Now, find a small twig and sharpen it until it plugs the hole you just punched in the top as tight as can be. Set the twig aside, as you won=92t need it for a while. Now toss the can, lid up on the fire. I=92ve tried a bunch of different fires. Some work and some don=92t and = I don=92t know why. Campfires seem to make the best char cloth. Set it on the edge of the coals, and plan 2-5 minutes a side for cooking. Good charcoal fires work about the same. I=92ve tried this numerous times on my propane grill in the backyard, and on my coal forge, at both fast and slow heats, and never had any luck with making good char. My best guess is that even on =91slow=92 heat, it is still too = much for propane and coal. Okay, you have your char tin heating on the fire. More and more smoke is coming out the tiny hole you made (that=92s why you made it!). The smoke smells really nasty. Drop a burning twig across the hole to ignite the smoke if you or your neighbors have a sensitive nose. When the smoke trail is almost gone, flip the can over in the fire, wait 1-2 minutes, and flip it back over. If there is no more smoke pull the can out of the fire, and IMMEDIATELY stick the twig into the hole on the top. The twig is to prevent pulling air back into the can as it cools down. =20 This is why it is nice to make char toward nightfall. If the can starts glowing red, it tells you that you do NOT have an airtight seal, and that air is being sucked back into the char tin, setting the char on fire....that=92s why the can is a dull red in color...it=92s hot. If this happens, toss the charcloth out and start over. I once needed to make some char at rendezvous and had stepped on the lid, so couldn=92t get a good seal. Rather than go borrow another tin, I tried making up a thick mud of clay, smeared that around the rim, put on the lid, added a bit more clay to the seam and tossed it in the fire. It worked like a charm. If the char is brown, or even has white spots, it was not on the fire long enough. Put it back in the can and cook it some more. You should see more smoke coming out the hole as you finish charring the cloth. If the char is brittle, it has been overcooked or still had the sizing left in the cloth. Leftover sizing often also leaves a shiny residue in the can. If it is brittle, throw it away and start over. Good char should be bend double without any cracking or crazing while being uniformly black in color. You should be able to bend it in half with no problems. If it can=92t do that, it is overcooked and makes inferior charcloth. Yep, it will still start fires, just not nearly as quickly. Assuming none of these bad things happened, congratulations! You=92ve made your first char cloth! Now what? Selecting a Flint A lot of people think this is a no-brainer, but it is important. There are two things you want in a flint. The first is sharpness, and the second is hardness. A truly sharp flint is like a piece of broken glass. It is one molecule thick on the edge. No steel knife of any type can even begin to approach that sort of sharpness. Learn how to knap a flint for maximum sharpness. It makes a big difference in how strong a string of sparks you can toss from the steel. Some of the best flints I=92ve ever had have been flakes and spalls left around after someone demonstrated arrowhead making. They=92re small and exceedingly sharp. Rule of thumb is that the darker the piece of flint, the harder it is. And the harder the piece of flint, the lower it dulls. But I=92ve seen some awfully light colored flints throw some very impressive sparks. So I give sharpness the nod over the hardness of the flint. If you can find it, get a chunk of red jasper. Some parts of the country it is easy to come by, and others quite difficult. Here in Houston, where we=92re 100 miles or more from the nearest rock at ground level, I cruise gravel parking lots. Much of the gravel we get is flint, and there always seems to be a piece or two of red jasper. Red jasper is 2-3 times as hard as flint, and if sharp will really throw some truly awesome sparks that can still sizzle when they hit the ground.=20 Selecting a Striker There are two types of strikers. Good ones and bad ones. Initially, it can be hard to tell the difference. The best place to get a GOOD striker is at rendezvous from the smith who made it. If you buy it from someone other than the blacksmith who made it, test it out for 10-15 minutes. Rule of thumb is that you should be able to hold the striker at waist level, strike it with the flint, and have sparks burning at the top of your moccasins. When you find a striker that does this, keep striking for about 15 minutes. Some of the strikers available have only a case hardening. Those sparks you see are little bits of burning metal cut off by the flint (see why we want a sharp flint?) and ignited by the friction of the flint hitting the striker.. If you only have a case hardness on the steel the metal is hard for only 2-3 thousands of an inch, and after 10 or so minutes of striking, suddenly quit giving off a spark. You=92ve used up the hardness, and the striker is worthless. You=92ll pay a few bucks more getting a striker from the original smith, but you=92ll also get a lifetime guarantee, most likely. Make sure the striking face is smooth. If it is made from a file, make sure that there are no file marks left on the face of the striker, or near the edges where a flint can hit. Catching one of these defects can snap the striker in half, as it forces it to break along a fault line. Tinder Tinder is made out of dead plants, the finer the better. There=92s a lot of good material out there. Dead grasses rolled through the hands until they become fibers, tow used in taxidermy (the leftovers from the flax plant when the linen is removed), hay, pine needles, cedar bark ground up finely by hand and allowed to dry. You want to keep it fine, but not turn it into a powder. Tinder is the stuff that will take the glowing coal from you char cloth and suddenly burst into flame for building your fire. Get the deadest, driest stuff you can find, dry it some more, and then keep it dry! Making a Fire by Flint and Steel Okay, you now have good charcloth, a good flint, a good steel and some tinder. How do we go about turning this into a conflagration? No problem. First of all, you=92re going to split up some kindling. Then you=92re going to follow the three (3) steps below EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. Once you get these three steps down pay, you can start experimenting to improve your speed. The tender you have will burn for only a few seconds, so you have to get some larger stuff burning during that time. Start by getting some dry wood split into pieces about the size of match sticks, and gradually progressing until you are adding pieces about a half to inch in diameter. At that point there is no way the fire is going out unless the heavens open up. We=92re not going to get into types of fires. I like a tipi style, other like some of the many others. Use what works for you. 1. Strike the spark. If you=92re right-handed, hold the steel in your left hand. Hold the flint/jasper level in your right with 2-3 pieces of char on top of the rock. The sharp edge of the flint must point to yor right.Use your thumb to keep the char from slipping off and position it so that the char is even with the striking edge of the flint. Use the steel to whack the flint in a rather gentle motion. You=92re trying to shave off tiny pieces of burning metal with the flint, not bash down a building. If you have to hit it hard to get a spark, you=92ve got either a lousy striker or a dull flint. Band-Aids may be called for until you get a feel for the proper technique. Keep it up until you get a spark to catch on the char. If you have good equipment and Monk=92s cloth, only one or two whacks will be needed. You can see a small orange glow in the char where the spark has lodged. This glow may only be obvious in the dark unless you shade the cloth. If you can=92t see it and burn your thumb, it=92s lit.. 2. Blow it into flame Blow on it gently to sprea This can cause a massive blowing fit, d the fire and at the same time grab a handful of the tinder you=92ve already made up into a bird=92s nest about the size of a baseball. Tuck the glowing char down into the center of the birdsnest, pinch the birdsnest closed using your thumb and forefinger to compress it around the char cloth, raise it above your head slightly with your back to the wind, and gently blow on it. If your lungs empty, and no flames are in sight, turn your head to 90 degrees, grab a breath of fresh air, and resume blowing. You keep the nest above your head, plus turn it 90 degrees to keep from sucking the unlit smoke back in your lungs, which is detrimental to your Mt. Man image. 3. Starting the Fire When the flames suddenly erupt, drop the birdsnest into your firepit, add the kindling, and gently nurse the blaze into a full conflagration by adding slightly larger pieces of wood to the fire. Make up a pot of coffee, and invite the booshway over. He may not be impressed with your first-ever flint and steel fire, but he always appreciates a pot of coffee. =46irebows I=92ll be the first to admit this is not one of my areas of great expertise. But I have used a couple of systems, and have started a hundred or so fires this way, mainly for the benefit of the public. Roy Parker We've all heared that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks = to the internet, we know this is not true. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 00:02:03 EDT Wrong. It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two are struck together. It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the fire steel, shaved off by the rock. However, not all rocks and steel will spark together. That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we don't necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel. Only high carbon steel will spark, to my knowledge. However, several, different kinds of rock will create a spark, when struck with the right steel. One is no good without the other. So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that much detail. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 23:07:13 -0500 Roy What is the price guide for? Send it along if it isn't painful. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 10:46 PM On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700, you wrote: >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of = flint >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have = been >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I = get a >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. = I >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing = it >the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out = the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I = can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > Never have had time to finish this darn thing.... This is from March, 1998......just wanted to show Dean I still lurk a lot around here, but don't post much any more. BTW, if anyone wants the pics of the New Orleans price guide from 1831, I finally figured out how to send them in a painless fashion. Several people have asked for this information recently. The following is a reprint of an article I posted in early October. The finished article was lost in a hard disk crash around Thanksgiving, and I have not recreated it. This is based on several years of experience, and an exchange on the Usenet group soc.history.living with several folks who also frequent this mailing list. Scott, see if you can find your own words in this! I'm sorry, but the article is NOT complete. If you've never made a flint and steel fire before, here's the gist of it. The following is a DRAFT copy. The actual article is only about half done. I'm retaining the copyright for this article, since I hope to have it published for profit and make millions of dollars when Steven Spielberg turns this into a major movie.. The final article had all the contributors listed. I don't have them here, but pulled all the 1996-1997 exchanges off of Deja News by doing a search for "fire starting". When I rewrite this, full credit to all contributors will be given, especially for the info on charwood. The article needs a lot of wordsmithing. I have not done much except spell check it, so it is obviously not ready to go yet. =20 ---------------------------- There's a lot of ways to start fires. I'm going to cover techniques I've used off and on over the last 19 years. I'll also cover a few techniques that I do NOT have a lot of experience with, but other folks do I'll be straight with you when I report on something someone else recommends, but I've only experimented with. If I don't like the method, I'll tell you, but understand it may be because I don't have the technique down due to enough experimentation. Try it yourself. =20 We're going to cover charcloth making, striker selection, flint selection, proper tinder and then tie all this together into proper flint and steel firestarting. Char is usually made from cloth, but several people I corresponded with have used different natural materials. This will be covered later on. We'll also cover how to select and use a firebow, how to use your shootin' iron as a fire starter, char wood making and use, the burning lens (aka magnifying glass), and we'll end it with what I diplomatically call "shortcut" (others may call it cheating) techniques some scum-sucking weasles use to get an edge on the competition, just so you have an idea of what to look out for. Charcloth Making Forget all the stuff they told you in Boy Scouts about using dryer lint, picking up a rock and striking sparks, or rubbing two sticks together. It's hogwash. If you follow the recommendations in this article, make a batch or two of charcloth so you can see what is "good" versus "bad" select a flint as described, and have a good striker, you'll have flame in less than 15 seconds almost every time you try. My personal best at fire starting is 8.1 seconds, and that took third place.=20 Char is important because you need some material that will catch the sparks from your striker. You can have a marvelous striker and flint, and chuck sparks into dryer lint until the cows come home. And they come home about the time you have a spark catch in the dryer lint. =20 The reason you char cloth is to essentially turn it into pure carbon, kinda like a super charcoal briquette. You want a material that chars well, and has a lot of surface roughness to hold the spark from the striker until it can ignite the cloth. Dryer lint, et. al, has a much higher combustion temperature to keep a coal glowing than does char cloth. That's why it is so hard to start a fire this way. Good char cloth will grab a spark as soon as it hits. Start with 100 percent cotton or linen fabric. Make absolutely sure there are no synthetics. These will melt and burn and leave a fire-proof coating over what remains of the fabric. It also makes an awful mess of your char tin. Wool has its own fire retardant. Lore has it that you can't make char cloth out of wool, and I always believed it until I sat down to write these lines. I've always accepted that wool won't work, but you know, I have never tired it. I will have to take a shot at it next time I make up a batch of char. I've heard that using cloth with patterns makes inferior char cloth. In my experience, it doesn't seem to matter. New fabric such as left overs from shirt making need to be washed several times before you char them. Most material like this contains a something called a sizing, which is fine clay impregnated in the cloth to make it smoother and easier to cut for patterns. You can make char cloth from it, but the sizing leaves a bit more ash in the tin, and sometimes keeps a spark for catching as it seems to have to burn through the sizing first. Pure canvas from the sewing store works pretty good after being well washed. Flannel works well too if you make sure you do NOT get the flame-retardant kind. All of these things will work. To make char cloth you can't put out without water, you have to use a special type of cloth. Forget about blue jeans, cotton scraps, flannel, canvas, etc. The best stuff I have ever found for char cloth is called Monk's Cloth (available at almost any sewing center, at least here in Texas). It has 5-9 threads in the warp and the woof (?) (these are sewing terms I really don't understand, but it means the top layer weaves in and out of the bottom layer {going sideways of course} kinda like the plastic webbing you have on your aluminum framed lawn chairs, except this is all cotton, and is a lot thinner weave. Monks cloth looks a lot like a coarser weave of the gauze you'd find in a first aid kit. For those of you who are wondering, I've tried using gauze for char also. It crumbles too easily compared to the Monk's cloth for my taste, but catches a spark immediately. If I ever get access to a scanner, I'll upload a picture to the web. How do you make char cloth? Easy. Get some 100% linen or cotton, or if you've been paying attention, get some Monk's cloth ( wash it once or twice first-a yard of this stuff will start hundreds of fires), cut it up into about inch and a half squares, no larger. When you have a decent handful of pieces, put them in your char tin. I fill my tin (one of the old, large shoe polish tins) so that the pile sticks out about three-eighths of an inch before putting the lid on. This compresses the cloth a little, but I've never noticed a problem . If you really stuff the tin full, you'll find a lot of the material in the center is not properly charred. A little compression is ok, a lot is bad. A char tin is nothing more than a small metal can that has a tight fitting metal lid. A shoe polish tin or a pint paint can works great. The pint paint can doubles as a container when making char wood. We'll cover that later. Clean out all residue from the previous inhabitant of the can before your start. The real secret is to have a very tight fitting lid, and to close it down tight after you put in the cloth. Next, take a small nail, about a one inch finishing nail and poke a hole in the lid. =20 Now, find a small twig and sharpen it until it plugs the hole you just punched in the top as tight as can be. Set the twig aside, as you won't need it for a while. Now toss the can, lid up on the fire. I've tried a bunch of different fires. Some work and some don't and I don't know why. Campfires seem to make the best char cloth. Set it on the edge of the coals, and plan 2-5 minutes a side for cooking. Good charcoal fires work about the same. I've tried this numerous times on my propane grill in the backyard, and on my coal forge, at both fast and slow heats, and never had any luck with making good char. My best guess is that even on 'slow' heat, it is still too much for propane and coal. Okay, you have your char tin heating on the fire. More and more smoke is coming out the tiny hole you made (that's why you made it!). The smoke smells really nasty. Drop a burning twig across the hole to ignite the smoke if you or your neighbors have a sensitive nose. When the smoke trail is almost gone, flip the can over in the fire, wait 1-2 minutes, and flip it back over. If there is no more smoke pull the can out of the fire, and IMMEDIATELY stick the twig into the hole on the top. The twig is to prevent pulling air back into the can as it cools down. =20 This is why it is nice to make char toward nightfall. If the can starts glowing red, it tells you that you do NOT have an airtight seal, and that air is being sucked back into the char tin, setting the char on fire....that's why the can is a dull red in color...it's hot. If this happens, toss the charcloth out and start over. I once needed to make some char at rendezvous and had stepped on the lid, so couldn't get a good seal. Rather than go borrow another tin, I tried making up a thick mud of clay, smeared that around the rim, put on the lid, added a bit more clay to the seam and tossed it in the fire. It worked like a charm. If the char is brown, or even has white spots, it was not on the fire long enough. Put it back in the can and cook it some more. You should see more smoke coming out the hole as you finish charring the cloth. If the char is brittle, it has been overcooked or still had the sizing left in the cloth. Leftover sizing often also leaves a shiny residue in the can. If it is brittle, throw it away and start over. Good char should be bend double without any cracking or crazing while being uniformly black in color. You should be able to bend it in half with no problems. If it can't do that, it is overcooked and makes inferior charcloth. Yep, it will still start fires, just not nearly as quickly. Assuming none of these bad things happened, congratulations! You've made your first char cloth! Now what? Selecting a Flint A lot of people think this is a no-brainer, but it is important. There are two things you want in a flint. The first is sharpness, and the second is hardness. A truly sharp flint is like a piece of broken glass. It is one molecule thick on the edge. No steel knife of any type can even begin to approach that sort of sharpness. Learn how to knap a flint for maximum sharpness. It makes a big difference in how strong a string of sparks you can toss from the steel. Some of the best flints I've ever had have been flakes and spalls left around after someone demonstrated arrowhead making. They're small and exceedingly sharp. Rule of thumb is that the darker the piece of flint, the harder it is. And the harder the piece of flint, the lower it dulls. But I've seen some awfully light colored flints throw some very impressive sparks. So I give sharpness the nod over the hardness of the flint. If you can find it, get a chunk of red jasper. Some parts of the country it is easy to come by, and others quite difficult. Here in Houston, where we're 100 miles or more from the nearest rock at ground level, I cruise gravel parking lots. Much of the gravel we get is flint, and there always seems to be a piece or two of red jasper. Red jasper is 2-3 times as hard as flint, and if sharp will really throw some truly awesome sparks that can still sizzle when they hit the ground.=20 Selecting a Striker There are two types of strikers. Good ones and bad ones. Initially, it can be hard to tell the difference. The best place to get a GOOD striker is at rendezvous from the smith who made it. If you buy it from someone other than the blacksmith who made it, test it out for 10-15 minutes. Rule of thumb is that you should be able to hold the striker at waist level, strike it with the flint, and have sparks burning at the top of your moccasins. When you find a striker that does this, keep striking for about 15 minutes. Some of the strikers available have only a case hardening. Those sparks you see are little bits of burning metal cut off by the flint (see why we want a sharp flint?) and ignited by the friction of the flint hitting the striker.. If you only have a case hardness on the steel the metal is hard for only 2-3 thousands of an inch, and after 10 or so minutes of striking, suddenly quit giving off a spark. You've used up the hardness, and the striker is worthless. You'll pay a few bucks more getting a striker from the original smith, but you'll also get a lifetime guarantee, most likely. Make sure the striking face is smooth. If it is made from a file, make sure that there are no file marks left on the face of the striker, or near the edges where a flint can hit. Catching one of these defects can snap the striker in half, as it forces it to break along a fault line. Tinder Tinder is made out of dead plants, the finer the better. There's a lot of good material out there. Dead grasses rolled through the hands until they become fibers, tow used in taxidermy (the leftovers from the flax plant when the linen is removed), hay, pine needles, cedar bark ground up finely by hand and allowed to dry. You want to keep it fine, but not turn it into a powder. Tinder is the stuff that will take the glowing coal from you char cloth and suddenly burst into flame for building your fire. Get the deadest, driest stuff you can find, dry it some more, and then keep it dry! Making a Fire by Flint and Steel Okay, you now have good charcloth, a good flint, a good steel and some tinder. How do we go about turning this into a conflagration? No problem. First of all, you're going to split up some kindling. Then you're going to follow the three (3) steps below EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. Once you get these three steps down pay, you can start experimenting to improve your speed. The tender you have will burn for only a few seconds, so you have to get some larger stuff burning during that time. Start by getting some dry wood split into pieces about the size of match sticks, and gradually progressing until you are adding pieces about a half to inch in diameter. At that point there is no way the fire is going out unless the heavens open up. We're not going to get into types of fires. I like a tipi style, other like some of the many others. Use what works for you. 1. Strike the spark. If you're right-handed, hold the steel in your left hand. Hold the flint/jasper level in your right with 2-3 pieces of char on top of the rock. The sharp edge of the flint must point to yor right.Use your thumb to keep the char from slipping off and position it so that the char is even with the striking edge of the flint. Use the steel to whack the flint in a rather gentle motion. You're trying to shave off tiny pieces of burning metal with the flint, not bash down a building. If you have to hit it hard to get a spark, you've got either a lousy striker or a dull flint. Band-Aids may be called for until you get a feel for the proper technique. Keep it up until you get a spark to catch on the char. If you have good equipment and Monk's cloth, only one or two whacks will be needed. You can see a small orange glow in the char where the spark has lodged. This glow may only be obvious in the dark unless you shade the cloth. If you can't see it and burn your thumb, it's lit.. 2. Blow it into flame Blow on it gently to sprea This can cause a massive blowing fit, d the fire and at the same time grab a handful of the tinder you've already made up into a bird's nest about the size of a baseball. Tuck the glowing char down into the center of the birdsnest, pinch the birdsnest closed using your thumb and forefinger to compress it around the char cloth, raise it above your head slightly with your back to the wind, and gently blow on it. If your lungs empty, and no flames are in sight, turn your head to 90 degrees, grab a breath of fresh air, and resume blowing. You keep the nest above your head, plus turn it 90 degrees to keep from sucking the unlit smoke back in your lungs, which is detrimental to your Mt. Man image. 3. Starting the Fire When the flames suddenly erupt, drop the birdsnest into your firepit, add the kindling, and gently nurse the blaze into a full conflagration by adding slightly larger pieces of wood to the fire. Make up a pot of coffee, and invite the booshway over. He may not be impressed with your first-ever flint and steel fire, but he always appreciates a pot of coffee. Firebows I'll be the first to admit this is not one of my areas of great expertise. But I have used a couple of systems, and have started a hundred or so fires this way, mainly for the benefit of the public. Roy Parker We've all heared that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks = to the internet, we know this is not true. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 07 Jul 1999 23:36:26 -0500 Wrong?? Nothing I said was wrong. Do you think the rock sparks? Or = that the spark is spontaneously created when the steel and the rock are = struck together? The sparks come from the steel, not the rock, every time. A poor steel = and/or a poor rock will not create many sparks, as you say. A sharp = flint and a good steel can be used to produce sparks in quantity, and = this is the common way to strike fire. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:02 PM > Wrong. It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two = are=20 > struck together. It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the = fire=20 > steel, shaved off by the rock. However, not all rocks and steel will = spark=20 > together. That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we = don't=20 > necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel. Only high = carbon=20 > steel will spark, to my knowledge. However, several, different kinds = of rock=20 > will create a spark, when struck with the right steel. One is no = good=20 > without the other. So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that = much=20 > detail.=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 09:06:10 -0400 On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700 "Munroe Crutchley" writes: > Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! Munroe Crutchley a flint can be resharpened on ocasions and using the sharpest edge is normally the best---when you strike the steel with your flint it should be a glancing blow just like hitting a flint hammer to a frizzen---what you are doing is shaving off some of the metal in the steel that is where the sparks come from. the way you were talking in your posting I would assume that you may have some soft and hard spots in your steel---most of the guys that have a good fire steel guard them with their life and will use them for a lifetime---everyone likes a certain type of steel as far as shape goes and there are many choices you can make from the forged steel which it sounds like you have---forged steels are sometimes only tempered on the outside and loose their temper---if not done properly as you use it unless the smith was a good one and knew his tempering- I have a steel that was given me by fred printice when i first started skinning back in the early 60's and it is the proper size for my firebox and feels good to me and always gives consistant spark no matter if i use flint or chert or other hard rock---the black english flint chips do the best with it and the sparks will crackel when you hit it a lick with the flint---it is made out of a old used up and rusty horse rasp---with the rough large surfaces ground off a bit so that it will still have a good gripping surface and the edges are ground smooth---the smooth edge is what i strike the flint on or the thinner surface---the rasp was broken into pieces about 4 inches long and it is about 1 1/2 in wide and about 1/4 in thick----all that was done to it was the grinding and it sparks like hell---"there was no tempering involved"---it has temper thru and thru---it has never been retempered or has gone soft and has had the hell used out of it. when i strike the steel it is at a glancing blow of about 10 to 15 degrees and not a banging motion---remember the flint must cut off small minute slivers of the steel each time it is struck that is where the sparks come from--- I have seen people strike the steel to the flint and the flint to the steel ---basicly it is what is comfortable to you and gets the job done---back about a year ago one of the guys posted a article on fire making and went thru the whole process about 6 or seven pages of good information---look in the arcives and see if you can find the posting---it even gives a good and full explination of making char---with a good steel and good char you should be able to have a blaze in less than 10 seconds--one strike with the flint and steel and one blow---I have been to a lot of matches and posted a lot of flint and steel fire times under 5 seconds---from first strike to visible flame--- you might want to case harden the steel that you are using it might help or on the other hand if it is a real low carbon steel then it will loose all its spark and you have to start at SQUARE 1----try making your own steel from a old file and grinding the edges smooth can find lots of old big files at garege sales and in junk stores break it with a hammer and grind smooth to fit ----have seen several people who work in a machine shop take the files and put them on the surface grinder and smooth them out and they make excelent fire steels---have a small one about 2 inched by 1 1/4 by 3/16 that i carry in my shooting bag all the time use for fire making on the treck and for knapping stuborn flints with hard spots in them.. keep making the sparks fly and as you play you will learn what is best for you---REMEMBER A GOOD STEEL IS A TREASURED THING--- YMHOSANT "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 08 Jul 1999 09:30:12 -0400 >We Don't advertise. > >Snakeshot #1593 > the quite professionals---sometimes its difficult to carry a pilgram thru to acceptance---I like to know the guy inside and outside and know his metal before i ask him it took me about 3 years to get my sponcers to ask me if i wanted to join---nuff said--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 09:23:05 -0400 good posting john K. on the fire starting cant emphasise the technique too much as well as practice---it must be done in a way that it is comfortable and natural to you---used some of your finish last week it still works great---going to have to get some more soon---probably my next trip west will drop by and pick some up---best to you--- YMHOSANT "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caren Rago Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 10:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Actually the reason for good sparks from steel and rocks over poor sparks is due to the carbon in the steel or rocks. Low carbon values usually end up in very poor sparks thats why you can have a good steel and poor flint/chert or a poor steel with good flint/chert and get lousy results. I have found that files made in the USA spark great where files from china and korea suck. Now after you get your file and if you want to make a trad. striker you heat, pound and bend until you get the shape and then it needs to be tempered. I just spent the weekend alongside a very informative blacksmith at a rendezvous who explained and showed me how to do this. He also explained the properties of the metal and why today we can not make horse shoes and knives throw sparks. I carry a piece of flint in my pocket and while at flea markets and yard sales I always use it to see if I can get sparks from a variety of old files and tools. You would be amazed at what throws sparks and what does not. For instance I was in the back yard and picked up a piece of granite and wow did it throw sparks with the flint. I will be trying to start a fire with it one day to see if it works. Just my two cents Frank V. Rago At 11:36 PM 7/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >Wrong?? Nothing I said was wrong. Do you think the rock sparks? Or that the spark is spontaneously created when the steel and the rock are struck together? >The sparks come from the steel, not the rock, every time. A poor steel and/or a poor rock will not create many sparks, as you say. A sharp flint and a good steel can be used to produce sparks in quantity, and this is the common way to strike fire. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:02 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel > > >> Wrong. It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two are >> struck together. It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the fire >> steel, shaved off by the rock. However, not all rocks and steel will spark >> together. That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we don't >> necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel. Only high carbon >> steel will spark, to my knowledge. However, several, different kinds of rock >> will create a spark, when struck with the right steel. One is no good >> without the other. So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that much >> detail. >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 08 Jul 1999 12:50:08 EDT In a message dated 7/7/99 5:27:03 PM EST, KC764@aol.com writes: << Then, place the glowing cloth in the middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame >> If you value your facial hair, nose hair, eyes etc. Don't hold the nest below your face and blow. I have seen far to many successful fire starters in competions have the nest flare up beautifuly in their face. Hold it in front of your face not below and down wind is not a bad idea either. If you have to blow on it below your face try using your turkey bone turkey call as a blow tube which works great and gets your face back out of burn distance. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Nationals Date: 08 Jul 1999 13:03:45 EDT Hello all, What a great pleasure it was to have attended the AMM National Rendezvous for the first time. The location was fantastic although had hoped we could have had a view of the Tetons from camp. I think the single greatest impression I have is the camaraderie and friendship displayed by all. Eventhough this was my first National with the AMM, it seemed that just by virtue of being there I was accepted as a brother by all. A heartfelt thanks to you good brothers. I was able to meet many friends from this list. Among them were Capt Lahti, with whom I had the pleasure of studying tracking, Terry Landis, Lanney Ratcliff, Pat Quilter, Don and Phyllis Keas, Jerry Zaslow and Paul Jones. I was able to spend some time with Dean Rudy discussing things before he had to leave. Even had the honor of having Hiverano #1, ole Walt Hayward camped nearby. It was enjoyable spending some time around the fire with him as he reminisced. The colleges were great. I didn't make it to all of them, but I did get in on Winter Camping, Snow Shoe making, Tracking, Horse packing, and Trap making. Another of the highlights was the Buffalo butchering. Inspite of how long it took the poor crittur to die, once he did Rod Douglas, Wes Housler and Doc Ivory (what's his real name?) went to town and had him skinned and butchered in about one hour. Them boys know how to do it right. A hearty chaw of fresh liver with a dose of bile capped off the event. Truly shinin times in the Rocky Mountains! WAUGH!!!! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Weather - this time of the year. Date: 08 Jul 1999 11:05:25 -0700 Hello Camp Just got off the phone with old friend Peter Gobel of "Goose Bay Workshops", seems he has had bad luck again in VA. He had his house "nailed" by a thunder strom a few years ago, did much damage. On July 3rd of this year his shop had the same experience, blow a 2' hole in the roof, split the back of the building, knocked bricks out of the fireplace and fried most of the electrical equipment. While we were talking the insurance people showed up, will let you know the results later. While thinking of Peter's problem, we should think about bad weather when out and about doing our historical events, this could be seriuos if in the wrong place at the right time. The members of this list may enjoy what the weather brought to our forefathers living in St. Louis and surrounding area at the time of the Fur Trade. BAD WEATHER “Suddenly the weather turns bad! Thundershowers, lighting, the sun is blotted out! And there is nothing we can do to warn or prevent this act of mother nature.” These headlines appeared in the St. Louis Messenger on July 27,1837. Then the article goes on about, “the terrible heat wave and drought of 1833-1834 and how the earth was parched, creeks turned into dry rock beds and crops burned in the fields. During the drought the temperature hovered near 100-degrees for the entire growing season and questioned how some families made it with available food supplies! ” This was of coarse, extreme weather seldom seen in the Illinois country, but the threat of changes like this and an earlier period in 1816 had people talking of building food supplies like natures animals do every year. The start of storing grain and other field products was born. Lets get back to the 1816 weather change, reported in Harper’s Magazine, of that following year, “ Both January and February of 1816 were warm and springlike, so much so that settlers let their fireplaces die. The cold started in March, with each day windy and blustery. Despite the weather, spring crops were planted, with vegetation well under way by April when unusual cold moved in. Snow or sleet fell for 17 different days in May, killing the fruit trees. June saw frost and snow for all but 3 days, it lasted through July. August was worse, with ice coating the fields, vegetation was gone, wildlife had moved to distant lands and panic felled upon the people.” This strange change in the weather was caused by a volanco thousands of miles away, that sent so much ash into the heavens it changed lives around the world and was not found out until a few years later. (Several others have written of this unusual condition in North America in later years, Sunshine and Life magazines did several articles in the early 1900’s.) The oldtimers had several weather signs they used, “when cows lie down in the pasture - expect rain”, “spiderwebs on the morning grass with dew - expect rain”, “if birds build their nests close to the trunk - expect a rainy summer - if nests are built low - expect high winds” or “frogs croaking in early spring - expect rain”. Ben Franklin had several similar sayings, as did Thomas Jefferson both interested in growing edibles. These pioneers, as others that followed had weather saying for each cloud formation, wind from different compass points or anything of unsual conditions. In 1839 the Messenger reported, “ We’re predicting the weather more accurately than in the past, but its not harnessed and earthquakes, hurricanes and tornado could happen at anytime.” Dwelling on such predictions, was consid