From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 09:05:49 -0700 Hello List, I was told this was an active list, been on it for several days and have seen very little on discussions of the fur trade or anything else for that matter. Is everyone at camp's, rendezvous' or on a vacation ? Let discuss some fur trade, rendezvous or ones coming up. Hello, HELLO. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 09:47:16 -0700 > Hello List, > > I was told this was an active list, been on it for several days and have seen very little on discussions of the fur trade or anything else for that matter. Is everyone at camp's, rendezvous' or on a vacation ? > > Let discuss some fur trade, rendezvous or ones coming up. > > Hello, HELLO. > > D. L. Smith > Washington, MO. Hey Concho, Was just replying to Senator Bob Smith, United States Senator (I-NH) - that's been standing up for our gun rights in the US Senate. Happened to check my mail and see you HELLO message, it does get real silent at times on some of these lists - probably like you said with other activities. Let me give you and those out there something to read - a reply from Senator Bob Smith on an e-mail I sent him on him making a "stand" for us. > Mr. Conner, > > I want you to know of my strong opposition to S. 254, the Violent > and Repeat Juvenile Offender Accountability and Rehabilitation Act of > 1999. I voted against that bill because I believe that the gun > control amendments to it that were adopted by the Senate will do > lasting damage to the fundamental right to keep and bear arms, which > is guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the > United States. > > I filibustered against this bill being sent to a Senate-House > conference committee. If the final version of the bill still includes > gun control, then I will filibuster it again. I thought you would > appreciate knowing this in view of your previously-expressed concerns. > > I am outraged that the gun control lobby in this country took > advantage of the tragedy earlier this year at Littleton, Colorado, to > mount an unprecedented assault on the Second Amendment rights of > law-abiding gun owners. They cast blame on law-abiding gun owners, > while leaving the movie moguls and video game makers who promote > wanton violence to children virtually unscathed. > > I am also disappointed by some of my conservative colleagues here > in the Senate. I spent a great deal of time, over the two weeks that > the Senate debated S. 254, arguing privately with these colleagues and > trying to persuade them to hold the line against this onslaught of gun > control amendments. Sadly, I was not successful. Nevertheless, I am > proud to have stood up for the Second Amendment, even, in one case, > when I was only one of two Senators to vote against a gun control > amendment to S. 254. > > I am particularly angered by what the Senate voted to do with > respect to gun shows. Sadly, it seems evident to me that the > practical effect of the Lautenberg Amendment, adopted when Vice > President Gore cast the tie-breaking vote, will be effectively to ruin > gun shows -- to put them out of business. This, unfortunately, seems > to me to be the aim of the Lautenberg Amendment. > > I am also deeply concerned about the effects of the so-called > "trigger lock" amendment. Even though the amendment appears only to > require trigger locks to be sold with guns, the legal effect of the > amendment may well be to do great damage to the Second Amendment > rights of law-abiding gun owners. This is because courts may construe > the amendment as creating a new civil negligence standard under > which gun owners will be seen as having a legal obligation to use their > trigger locks or face legal liability if their gun is misused by some > third party. > > If, in fact, the law develops such that gun owners have a legal > obligation to use trigger locks, these law-abiding gun owners may be > forced to put their safety, and that of their families, at risk. It > is certainly not unreasonable to imagine a single mother of small > children, depending on her gun for safety, panic-stricken as she > struggles unsuccessfully with her trigger lock in the middle of the > night after hearing a burglar break into her home. > > These are but two examples of the grave harm that the gun control > amendments adopted to this bill by the Senate have done to the > Second Amendment rights of Americans. When the heat of this moment > is gone, and the passions so shamelessly stirred up by the gun control > lobby have subsided, I am afraid that many of those who supported > these amendments will realize that they have done the Second > Amendment serious and lasting harm. Sadly, though, it will be too late. > > Thanks again for the concerns you have expressed. I am pleased to > stand up for the rights of law-abiding gun owners. > > Sincerely yours, > > BOB SMITH > United States Senator (I-NH) We always think that writing these people goes to deaf ears, well look's like we have one that pays attention to what we say - with this Senator. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Jackson" Subject: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 09:47:57 PDT Hello camp, can I get some info on how the mountain man carried his salt and spices?? and what kind of containers. Bill "MadJack" Jackson _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:56:26 -0500 DL You will find that weekends are pretty slow and the volume of = discussions during the week will fluctuate a lot, particularly in the = summer months....too many things to do, presumably. Don't be shy, throw = out something for discussion. A bone to the dogs, so to speak......the = meatier the better. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:05 AM > Hello List, >=20 > I was told this was an active list, been on it for several days and = have seen very little on discussions of the fur trade or anything else = for that matter. Is everyone at camp's, rendezvous' or on a vacation ? >=20 > Let discuss some fur trade, rendezvous or ones coming up. >=20 > Hello, HELLO. >=20 > D. L. Smith > Washington, MO. > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 10:05:45 -0700 "The meatier the better" - how's your face and the straight razor skills doing Lanney !!! Hope OK after a few weeks of practice, have you learned anything that a new comer to this thing called "shaving" could be told. Pulling the skin tight - etc !! You have become the subject matter expert bud. > > DL > You will find that weekends are pretty slow and the volume of discussions during the week will fluctuate a lot, particularly in the summer months....too many things to do, presumably. Don't be shy, throw out something for discussion. A bone to the dogs, so to speak......the meatier the better. > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:05 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Hello List > > > > Hello List, > > > > I was told this was an active list, been on it for several days and have seen very little on discussions of the fur trade or anything else for that matter. Is everyone at camp's, rendezvous' or on a vacation ? > > > > Let discuss some fur trade, rendezvous or ones coming up. > > > > Hello, HELLO. > > > > D. L. Smith > > Washington, MO. > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List WARNING NO PERIOD REFERENCES! Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:08:01 -0400 Buck, Saw Dem. Bill Bradley on tv thismorning. Was asked about gun control, he said the ALL hanguns AND their owners should be registered AND licensed. And was going to ban all "Saturday night specials" whatever the hell those are.. He didn't elaborate... Scary stuff. Our two "Conservitive Rebublican" Senators from here in Ohio have sided with the Dems on ALL gun control issues. DeWine and Vionivich. I have written & called them numerous times with no answers whatsoever... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cherokeoil@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: tarps Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:20:58 EDT I would like to know if a tarp with grommets in it would work if i sewed some leather over them? If not does anyone have any idea`s where i could get a tarp without grommets around KC area or any mail order places? Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 12:29:13 -0700 Bill, The trappers carried their salt for personal use in horn containers, since these were the only waterproof containers they had. A question I have, is how did the trappers carry larger quanities of salt, such as the amount needed to supply a whole party ? There are accounts of groups of trappers carrying " gallons " of salt to be used by parties. I am not sure this was a common practice of the mountain men, but it is well documented that the longhunters of the 18th century certainly did. The reason I am not certain if the mountain men carried such quanities of salt is that in doing the reasearch for the sign language tape, I found that according to W. P. Clark the plains Indians did not use salt. In fact the sign for salt is " taste , bad, white. " Does anyone have any further info ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Hello camp, can I get some info on how the mountain man carried his salt and >spices?? and what kind of containers. >Bill "MadJack" Jackson > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 10:29:42 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, "Bill Jackson" wrote: > > Hello camp, can I get some info on how the mountain man carried his salt and > spices?? and what kind of containers. > Bill "MadJack" Jackson > MadJack, In Washington's "kitchen mess kit", they stored salt, Havana Brown sugar and spices in metal tin containers that where tinned on the inside, the outside had turned a dark gray color from age, but the tinned inside was dull but not really discolored for it's age. Had a chance to examine the complete "mess" years ago when a friend of the family was working there at Valley Forge PA. There were samples of home spun cloth that had lined the spice and sugar containers, so apparently the spices, sugar and maybe even the salt where wrapped in cloth - then stored in the containers. With the high moisture rate back there and being near the coast, I would think the items would stick to the cloth if not used daily, that's just a guess - nothing documented. ____________________________________ We have tried this method here in the rockies, seems to work fine, but we are dryer than some areas and this may have helped. I used small tin containers (originally had candy in them 30-40 years ago), removed the painted advertising with a small bead blaster and let them bare metal on the outside (have a nice grayish color) tinned the inside like Washington's. DON'T USE COPPER CONTAINERS - I have done this one and within a few months they turn a nice green and so do your spices. ALSO USE container with rounded corners - helps from cutting through a haversack or bedroll. The tinned ones (containers) mentioned have served us nicely in all four seasons, if your using them 4-6 times a year, your stored items should be fine - because your refilling them. I don't think they would store for extended lengths of time, probably draw moisture and soil. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List WARNING NO PERIOD REFERENCES! Date: 01 Aug 1999 10:52:32 -0700 > > Buck, > Saw Dem. Bill Bradley on tv thismorning. Was asked about gun control, he said the ALL hanguns AND their owners should be registered AND licensed. And was going to ban all "Saturday night specials" whatever the hell > those are.. He didn't elaborate... Scary stuff. > Our two "Conservitive Rebublican" Senators from here in Ohio have sided with the Dems on ALL gun control issues. DeWine and Vionivich. I have written & called them numerous times with no answers whatsoever... > D > That's why we have to "hound' our rep's with e-mail and letters, bury their asses until they start answering the folks that voted them into those job, or vote them out and let them know why they lost, because they go off doing their own thing, not what they campained for when voted in. Was at an NRA meeting back in the early sixies after Nam, this ex. pres. of the NRA was asked to come up on stage, took a little while to get him there, everyone settled down. He got ready to speak and said "Shoot the lawyers and elected ones will quit", the crowd when nuts and he went and sat back down. Think about it, many of these elected officals have that back ground, so they know what they can get away with right from the start. Take it easy Cuttleg, your a skinner not a skin headed offical. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:02:53 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > > Bill, > The trappers carried their salt for personal use in horn containers, since > these were the only waterproof containers they had. A question I have, is > how did the trappers carry larger quanities of salt, such as the amount > needed to supply a whole party ? There are accounts of groups of trappers > carrying " gallons " of salt to be used by parties. I am not sure this was > a common practice of the mountain men, but it is well documented that the > longhunters of the 18th century certainly did. The reason I am not certain > if the mountain men carried such quanities of salt is that in doing the > reasearch for the sign language tape, I found that according to W. P. Clark > the plains Indians did not use salt. In fact the sign for salt is " taste , > bad, white. " Does anyone have any further info ? > Pendleton Larry & Bill, For large quanities I read some where of traders carrying "caked" salt in wooden buckets to settlements from the Mississippi River east. Didn't Clymer or another artist do research on the salt operation in southern Utah - painted a picture of such activity with whites and Indians, cooking salt and salt stored in wooden buckets. In one issue of Muzzleloader there was an article about the salt operation in Kent or Virgina, showed a couple of men each carrying wooden buckets on a yoke, I guess they had salt ? Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tarps Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:05:43 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, Cherokeoil@aol.com wrote: > > I would like to know if a tarp with grommets in it would work if i sewed some > leather over them? If not does anyone have any idea`s where i could get a > tarp without grommets around KC area or any mail order places? Thanks. Look in the Yellow Pages under "Tent & Awning" or "fabric", usually you can find "sail cloth" or canvas. For a supplier try Panther Primitives. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:09:21 -0700 > > Hello List, > > > > I was told this was an active list, been on it for several days............. HELP, I have orders to fill, don't have all day entertaining the likes of "Concho". Will someone answer some of these questions and add to the questions -thanks. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:13:11 -0500 Buck I shave every day with the straight razor and found out right away that = it is a matter of getting better quickly or else. I seem to have a = knack for it because as the number and size of the nicks decrease, the = quality of the shave increases. Several guys have told me tales of = bloody cuts that practically needed sutureing, including one who threw = the razor across the bathroom in disgust, ruining the razor and putting = himself in no little danger. Let me get a few years experience before = burdening me with Subject Matter Expert title. There are tons of = guys....many on this list.....who are truly the experts. I am still the = trainee. =20 The sense of satisfaction derived from the ritual of shaving with a = straight razor has made the few nicks seem cheap at the price. The = first time you touch your face with the razor is a little scary, but = good technique (largely common sense, really) and good tools will help = you get past that. I recommend that anybody who ever thought they = wanted to use a straight razor should find somebody who uses one = regularly and talk to him about it. Some guys might actually allow you = to use their razor.....some won't.=20 Do you have the photo of the razor I bought from you posted to your web = site? If not I will post it to you, or anyone else, as a jpg image. = It is a great looking razor and, even more importantly, it is a very = good razor. =20 YMOS Lanney=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 12:05 PM > "The meatier the better" - how's your face and the straight razor = skills doing Lanney !!! >=20 > Hope OK after a few weeks of practice, have you learned anything that = a new comer to this thing called "shaving" could be told. Pulling the = skin tight - etc !! >=20 > You have become the subject matter expert bud. >=20 > >=20 > > DL > > You will find that weekends are pretty slow and the volume of = discussions during the week will fluctuate a lot, particularly in the = summer months....too many things to do, presumably. Don't be shy, throw = out something for discussion. A bone to the dogs, so to speak......the = meatier the better. > > YMOS > > Lanney Ratcliff > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:05 AM > > Subject: MtMan-List: Hello List > >=20 > >=20 > > > Hello List, > > >=20 > > > I was told this was an active list, been on it for several days = and have seen very little on discussions of the fur trade or anything = else for that matter. Is everyone at camp's, rendezvous' or on a = vacation ? > > >=20 > > > Let discuss some fur trade, rendezvous or ones coming up. > > >=20 > > > Hello, HELLO. > > >=20 > > > D. L. Smith > > > Washington, MO. > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net > > >=20 >=20 > Later, > Buck Conner=20 > dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. > AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory=20 > _____________________________________ > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade=20 > and early history of the times, the one the=20 > American Mountain Men read and write: =20 > =20 > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires *=20 > Conklin, MI 49403 =20 > ATTN: Jon Link =20 > =20 > The subscription for the journal is $20 for a=20 > year or $35 for two years. You will receive=20 > quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. =20 > _____________________________________ > =20 > =20 >=20 > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:23:08 -0700 > Do you have the photo of the razor I bought from you posted to your web site? If not I will post it to you, or anyone else, as a jpg image. It is a great looking razor and, even more importantly, it is a very good razor. > YMOS > Lanney Lanney, send it again, told Wendy to put it on site - she got Larry and his tape up, but not the razor. send it to my business e-mail at : buck.conner@worldnet.att.net Thanks again, and I have saved what you just wrote, good straight forward information for a new straight razor shaver. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:32:21 -0700 I don't have my books at hand, being at work, but IIRC there were some well-known salt-works around the Great Salt Lake and north of there that are mentioned in accounts of the era. Osborne Russell perhaps? I am sure that salt was one of the commodites packed into rendezvous and also remember reading of a reference to a salt mill, presumably used to grind caked salt for use. Salt and hunters went hand in hand through history, as natural salt licks are the great "singles bars" of mother nature. So woodsmen kept an eye peeled for salt-making spots and also used them for meat-making. Sorry for lacking references, but maybe someone with books at hand will remember where to find the items I refer to. B'str'd larry pendleton wrote: > > Bill, > The trappers carried their salt for personal use in horn containers, since > these were the only waterproof containers they had. A question I have, is > how did the trappers carry larger quanities of salt, such as the amount > needed to supply a whole party ? There are accounts of groups of trappers > carrying " gallons " of salt to be used by parties. I am not sure this was > a common practice of the mountain men, but it is well documented that the > longhunters of the 18th century certainly did. The reason I am not certain > if the mountain men carried such quanities of salt is that in doing the > reasearch for the sign language tape, I found that according to W. P. Clark > the plains Indians did not use salt. In fact the sign for salt is " taste , > bad, white. " Does anyone have any further info ? > Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 14:31:27 -0400  
All this straight razor talk is almost enough to make me want to take up shaving again...
Imagine me with no hair at all on my face.. A pretty sight to behold, one of near Angelic perfection, if I do say so myself..<G>
D
 
 

Buck wrote:

> Do you have the photo of the razor I bought from you posted to your web site?  If not I will post it to you, or anyone else, as a jpg image.   It is a great looking razor and, even more importantly, it is a very good razor.
> YMOS
> Lanney

Lanney, send it again, told Wendy to put it on site - she got Larry and his tape up, but not the razor.

send it to my business e-mail at : buck.conner@worldnet.att.net

Thanks again, and I have saved what you just wrote, good straight forward information for a new straight razor shaver.

Later,
Buck Conner
dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory
_____________________________________
Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade
and early history of the times, the one the
American Mountain Men read and write:

The Tomahawk & Long Rifle  * 3483 Squires  *
Conklin, MI  49403
ATTN: Jon Link

The subscription for the journal is $20 for a
year or $35 for two years. You will receive
quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,.
_____________________________________
 
 

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

--

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:37:00 -0700 > DL > You will find that weekends are pretty slow and the volume of discussions during the week will fluctuate a lot, particularly in the summer months....too many things to do, presumably. Don't be shy, throw out something for discussion. A bone to the dogs, so to speak......the meatier the better. > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff Looks like things are pickin' up Lanney. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List WARNING NO PERIOD REFERENCES! Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:38:58 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, "Buck" wrote: > > > > > Buck, > > Saw Dem. Bill Bradley on tv thismorning. Was asked about gun control, he said the ALL hanguns AND their owners should be registered AND licensed. And was going to ban all "Saturday night specials" whatever the hell > > those are.. He didn't elaborate... Scary stuff. > > Our two "Conservitive Rebublican" Senators from here in Ohio have sided with the Dems on ALL gun control issues. DeWine and Vionivich. I have written & called them numerous times with no answers whatsoever... > > D > > > That's why we have to "hound' our rep's with e-mail and letters, bury their asses until they start answering the folks that voted them into those job, or vote them out and let them know why they lost, because they go off doing their own thing, not what they campained for when voted in. Amen brothers. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:45:36 -0700 Buck, Your right, I seem to remember an artist's rendition of someone cooking salt, possibly in Utah. I also read that Lewis and Clark carried a large quanity of salt and if memory serves me correctly, they cooked a large amount of salt on the west coast. I'm not sure this was a common practice with The Rocky Mountain Fur Trappers. Did the traders carry salt to the mountains to be traded or sold ? Or did they cook it themselves or just made do without it ? I don't know. Me thinks we need more info. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >On Sun, 01 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > >> >> Bill, >> The trappers carried their salt for personal use in horn containers, since >> these were the only waterproof containers they had. A question I have, is >> how did the trappers carry larger quanities of salt, such as the amount >> needed to supply a whole party ? There are accounts of groups of trappers >> carrying " gallons " of salt to be used by parties. I am not sure this was >> a common practice of the mountain men, but it is well documented that the >> longhunters of the 18th century certainly did. The reason I am not certain >> if the mountain men carried such quanities of salt is that in doing the >> reasearch for the sign language tape, I found that according to W. P. Clark >> the plains Indians did not use salt. In fact the sign for salt is " taste , >> bad, white. " Does anyone have any further info ? >> Pendleton > >Larry & Bill, > >For large quanities I read some where of traders carrying "caked" salt in wooden buckets to settlements from the Mississippi River east. > >Didn't Clymer or another artist do research on the salt operation in southern Utah - painted a picture of such activity with whites and Indians, cooking salt and salt stored in wooden buckets. > >In one issue of Muzzleloader there was an article about the salt operation in Kent or Virgina, showed a couple of men each carrying wooden buckets on a yoke, I guess they had salt ? > > >Later, >Buck Conner >dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory >_____________________________________ >Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade >and early history of the times, the one the >American Mountain Men read and write: > >The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * >Conklin, MI 49403 >ATTN: Jon Link > >The subscription for the journal is $20 for a >year or $35 for two years. You will receive >quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. >_____________________________________ > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:45:52 -0700 __________________________________ > We have tried this method here in the rockies, seems to work fine, but we are dryer than some areas and this may have helped. I used small tin containers (originally had candy in them 30-40 years ago), removed the painted advertising with a small bead blaster and let them bare metal on the outside (have a nice grayish color) tinned the inside like Washington's. > > DON'T USE COPPER CONTAINERS - I have done this one and within a few months they turn a nice green and so do your spices. ALSO USE container with rounded corners - helps from cutting through a haversack or bedroll. > I believe Buck wrote an article years ago about this in the Buckskin Report, did as he has stated and have had good results Mad Jack, give it a whirl. I talked to Crosby Brown (MO Historian) he said that small crock jars where used on early wagon trains and several journals state there use as part of the inventory when carried on "red river carts" on several trade routes. I personally like the tin ones Buck mentioned, they are light and don't break. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:52:32 -0700 Back to the original question, if they did cook salt, how did they carry large amounts of it and keep it semi-dry and usable ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Buck, > Your right, I seem to remember an artist's rendition of someone cooking >salt, possibly in Utah. I also read that Lewis and Clark carried a large >quanity of salt and if memory serves me correctly, they cooked a large >amount of salt on the west coast. I'm not sure this was a common practice >with The Rocky Mountain Fur Trappers. Did the traders carry salt to the >mountains to be traded or sold ? Or did they cook it themselves or just >made do without it ? I don't know. Me thinks we need more info. >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: Buck >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:03 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices > > >>On Sun, 01 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: >> >>> >>> Bill, >>> The trappers carried their salt for personal use in horn containers, >since >>> these were the only waterproof containers they had. A question I have, >is >>> how did the trappers carry larger quanities of salt, such as the amount >>> needed to supply a whole party ? There are accounts of groups of >trappers >>> carrying " gallons " of salt to be used by parties. I am not sure this >was >>> a common practice of the mountain men, but it is well documented that the >>> longhunters of the 18th century certainly did. The reason I am not >certain >>> if the mountain men carried such quanities of salt is that in doing the >>> reasearch for the sign language tape, I found that according to W. P. >Clark >>> the plains Indians did not use salt. In fact the sign for salt is " >taste , >>> bad, white. " Does anyone have any further info ? >>> Pendleton >> >>Larry & Bill, >> >>For large quanities I read some where of traders carrying "caked" salt in >wooden buckets to settlements from the Mississippi River east. >> >>Didn't Clymer or another artist do research on the salt operation in >southern Utah - painted a picture of such activity with whites and Indians, >cooking salt and salt stored in wooden buckets. >> >>In one issue of Muzzleloader there was an article about the salt operation >in Kent or Virgina, showed a couple of men each carrying wooden buckets on a >yoke, I guess they had salt ? >> >> >>Later, >>Buck Conner >>dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory >>_____________________________________ >>Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade >>and early history of the times, the one the >>American Mountain Men read and write: >> >>The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * >>Conklin, MI 49403 >>ATTN: Jon Link >> >>The subscription for the journal is $20 for a >>year or $35 for two years. You will receive >>quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. >>_____________________________________ >> >> >> >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:48:03 -0700 > Didn't Clymer or another artist do research on the salt operation in southern Utah - painted a picture of such activity with whites and Indians, cooking salt and salt stored in wooden buckets. Yes, John Clymer's work "Salt Flats" or something close to that shows what is stated. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:57:33 -0700 Ok guys, looks like I'm lagging behind on this subject. Is Buck saying that they carried large amounts of salt in tin containers ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Back to the original question, if they did cook salt, how did they carry >large amounts of it and keep it semi-dry and usable ? >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: larry pendleton >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:41 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices > > >>Buck, >> Your right, I seem to remember an artist's rendition of someone cooking >>salt, possibly in Utah. I also read that Lewis and Clark carried a large >>quanity of salt and if memory serves me correctly, they cooked a large >>amount of salt on the west coast. I'm not sure this was a common practice >>with The Rocky Mountain Fur Trappers. Did the traders carry salt to the >>mountains to be traded or sold ? Or did they cook it themselves or just >>made do without it ? I don't know. Me thinks we need more info. >>Pendleton >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Buck >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:03 AM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices >> >> >>>On Sun, 01 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>> The trappers carried their salt for personal use in horn containers, >>since >>>> these were the only waterproof containers they had. A question I have, >>is >>>> how did the trappers carry larger quanities of salt, such as the amount >>>> needed to supply a whole party ? There are accounts of groups of >>trappers >>>> carrying " gallons " of salt to be used by parties. I am not sure this >>was >>>> a common practice of the mountain men, but it is well documented that >the >>>> longhunters of the 18th century certainly did. The reason I am not >>certain >>>> if the mountain men carried such quanities of salt is that in doing the >>>> reasearch for the sign language tape, I found that according to W. P. >>Clark >>>> the plains Indians did not use salt. In fact the sign for salt is " >>taste , >>>> bad, white. " Does anyone have any further info ? >>>> Pendleton >>> >>>Larry & Bill, >>> >>>For large quanities I read some where of traders carrying "caked" salt in >>wooden buckets to settlements from the Mississippi River east. >>> >>>Didn't Clymer or another artist do research on the salt operation in >>southern Utah - painted a picture of such activity with whites and Indians, >>cooking salt and salt stored in wooden buckets. >>> >>>In one issue of Muzzleloader there was an article about the salt operation >>in Kent or Virgina, showed a couple of men each carrying wooden buckets on >a >>yoke, I guess they had salt ? >>> >>> >>>Later, >>>Buck Conner >>>dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >>>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory >>>_____________________________________ >>>Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade >>>and early history of the times, the one the >>>American Mountain Men read and write: >>> >>>The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * >>>Conklin, MI 49403 >>>ATTN: Jon Link >>> >>>The subscription for the journal is $20 for a >>>year or $35 for two years. You will receive >>>quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. >>>_____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 14:00:43 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BEDC26.3EDEA840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dennis, You and I barefaced, that is a mental image I can do without. Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Miles To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List =20 =20 =20 All this straight razor talk is almost enough to make me want to = take up shaving again...=20 Imagine me with no hair at all on my face.. A pretty sight to = behold, one of near Angelic perfection, if I do say so myself..=20 D=20 =20 =20 Buck wrote:=20 > Do you have the photo of the razor I bought from you posted to = your web site? If not I will post it to you, or anyone else, as a jpg = image. It is a great looking razor and, even more importantly, it is a = very good razor.=20 > YMOS=20 > Lanney=20 Lanney, send it again, told Wendy to put it on site - she got = Larry and his tape up, but not the razor.=20 send it to my business e-mail at : buck.conner@worldnet.att.net=20 Thanks again, and I have saved what you just wrote, good = straight forward information for a new straight razor shaver.=20 Later,=20 Buck Conner=20 dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc.=20 AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory=20 _____________________________________=20 Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade=20 and early history of the times, the one the=20 American Mountain Men read and write:=20 The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires *=20 Conklin, MI 49403=20 ATTN: Jon Link=20 The subscription for the journal is $20 for a=20 year or $35 for two years. You will receive=20 quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,.=20 _____________________________________=20 =20 =20 Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net --=20 "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"=20 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements=20 http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BEDC26.3EDEA840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dennis,
  You and = I barefaced,=20 that is a mental image I can do without.  <G>
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
To:= =20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Hello List

 
All this straight razor = talk is=20 almost enough to make me want to take up shaving again... =
Imagine=20 me with no hair at all on my face.. A pretty sight to behold, one of = near=20 Angelic perfection, if I do say so myself..<G> =
D=20
 
 =20

Buck wrote:=20

> Do you have the photo of the razor I = bought=20 from you posted to your web site?  If not I will post it to = you, or=20 anyone else, as a jpg image.   It is a great looking = razor=20 and, even more importantly, it is a very good razor.
> = YMOS=20
> Lanney=20

Lanney, send it again, told Wendy to put it on site - she got = Larry=20 and his tape up, but not the razor.=20

send it to my business e-mail at : = buck.conner@worldnet.att.net=20

Thanks again, and I have saved what you just wrote, good = straight=20 forward information for a new straight razor shaver.=20

Later,
Buck Conner
dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, = Inc.=20
AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory=20
_____________________________________
Get a subscription = to a=20 journal of the fur trade
and early history of the times, the = one the=20
American Mountain Men read and write:=20

The Tomahawk & Long Rifle  * 3483 Squires  *=20
Conklin, MI  49403
ATTN: Jon Link=20

The subscription for the journal is $20 for a
year or $35 = for two=20 years. You will receive
quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, = Nov,.=20
_____________________________________
 
 =20

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

--=20

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"=20
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1=20
 

------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BEDC26.3EDEA840-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 11:57:42 -0700 > Back to the original question, if they did cook salt, how did they carry > large amounts of it and keep it semi-dry and usable ? > Pendleton > >>For large quanities I read some where of traders carrying "caked" salt in > >wooden buckets to settlements from the Mississippi River east. > >southern Utah - painted a picture of such activity with whites >>and Indians, cooking salt and salt stored in wooden buckets. > >in Kent or Virgina, showed a couple of men each carrying >>wooden buckets on a yoke, I guess they had salt ? > >> Larry, I think Buck answered it "WOODEN BUCKETS" and it would be "CAKED" - not sure how you would go about doing this operation, unless just adding moisture to the top layer with water ? What do you think ! D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 12:08:00 -0700 > On Sun, 01 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > > Dennis, > > You and I barefaced, that is a mental image I can do without. > > Pendleton > > From: Dennis Miles > All this straight razor talk is almost enough to make me want to take up shaving again... > > Imagine me with no hair at all on my face.. A pretty sight to behold, one of near Angelic perfection, if I do say so myself.. > > D Well boys, Turtle just wrote me off_list, see his reply: > >Buck, >These two are like the old joke about, "if my dog looked like that I'd >shave his butt and making them walk backwards." > >Turtle. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:18:44 -0400 > Well now, Ain't that some....Shaaame on you Turtle...For Shaaame... > And behind our backs on top of that.....Tsk..Tsk... D > Well boys, > > Turtle just wrote me off_list, see his reply: > > > >Buck, > >These two are like the old joke about, "if my dog looked like that I'd > >shave his butt and making them walk backwards." > > > >Turtle. > > Later, > Buck Conner > dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. > AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory > _____________________________________ > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade > and early history of the times, the one the > American Mountain Men read and write: > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * > Conklin, MI 49403 > ATTN: Jon Link > > The subscription for the journal is $20 for a > year or $35 for two years. You will receive > quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. > _____________________________________ > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning recipes Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:23:58 -0600 Scott, We offer a home tanning kit based on our 11 years of hair on tanning. Works great. Cost is $39.95 plus shipping. will tan 2-3 deer skins or about 4-5 furs Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 12:28:29 -0700 > > On Sun, 01 August 1999, "Concho" wrote: > > DL > > You will find that weekends are pretty slow and the volume of discussions during the week will fluctuate a lot, particularly in the summer months....too many things to do, presumably. Don't be shy, throw out something for discussion. A bone to the dogs, so to speak......the meatier the better. ______________________________________________ Are you happy Concho, now you have gone and woke all these guys up. I had a couple of e-mails about two hours ago and just checked and found 31 of which 29 where new and a bunch from you. 1. You have started a discussion on storing salt, containers, etc. 2. Insulted me, Buck and my dog. 3. And started a pissing contest between several others. I told you guys about him, and you still left him stay on the list and he's only been on a few days, give him a few months and Dean will kick us all off. You should believe me, he got thrown out of the northwest territory, that's why he's back. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:30:09 -0400 Y'know, anyone that can stir that much, that fast.. I like.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:34:38 EDT I am doing this from memory, so bear with me. Just west of Danville, Illinois, the Big Vermilion River forms at the confluence of three tributaries, the North Fork, the Middle Fork, and the Salt Fork. The big Vermilion continues into Indiana and dumps into the Wabash about 5 miles over the IL/IN border. This is an old mining area with coal and zinc deposits. The Vermilion part came from the red shale deposits, and it is evident everywhere there are strip mines and in heaps from deep shaft mines. From earliest times, salt was obtained by the Indians from deposits on the Salt Fork. Sometime before the permanent trading post in Chicago was established, two men had a trading post at Danville. I don't remember their names. Salt was one of the commodities which they traded. Slightly later, a salt works was established on this sight. Large kettles were brought in for the purpose of evaporating the briny water. Since Gurdon Hubbard was the chief trader for the American Fur Co. during this same time, and since his main outpost was in Danville, it is safe to assume that he had his hands in this kettle. I can't remember the specifics, but there is a monument there today with one of the original salt kettles. This salt could have gone in several directions....... By water to the Wabash, and upstream toward Northern Indiana and Western Ohio. By water to the Wabash, and downstream to the Ohio, where it could have gone upstream and back East, or it could have gone downstream to the Mississippi. From there it could have gone North to Ft. DesChartres and St. Louis for use in the western fur trade, or it could have gone South downstream toward New Orleans and points in between. Thirdly, and highly likely, it could have gone overland, North to Chicago. As I mentioned in earlier postings, Hubbard often transported goods overland both by foot and on horseback. From here, the salt could have gone down the Illinois by boat, or back to the main factory at Ft. Mackinaw. At some time, the operation ceased to be profitable and went under. I read the documentation for this many years ago in papers written and stored in Vermilion County and compiled into the "History of Vermilion Country." Had I been as engrossed in history back then as I am now, I would have paid closer attention to the details. My mother-in-law has a copy of the book, and next time down, I will obtain and reread it. Sorry for all the assumptions, but some of the facts may help clarify salt operations in the fur trade. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 12:38:49 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > I am doing this from memory, so bear with me. Just west of Danville, > Illinois, the Big Vermilion River forms at the confluence of three > tributaries, the North Fork, the Middle Fork, and the Salt Fork. The big > Vermilion continues into Indiana and dumps into the Wabash about 5 miles over > the IL/IN border. > > This is an old mining area with coal and zinc deposits. The Vermilion part > came from the red shale deposits, and it is evident everywhere there are > strip mines and in heaps from deep shaft mines. > > From earliest times, salt was obtained by the Indians from deposits on the > Salt Fork. Sometime before the permanent trading post in Chicago was > established, two men had a trading post at Danville. I don't remember their > names. Salt was one of the commodities which they traded. Slightly later, a > salt works was established on this sight. Large kettles were brought in for > the purpose of evaporating the briny water. > > Since Gurdon Hubbard was the chief trader for the American Fur Co. during > this same time, and since his main outpost was in Danville, it is safe to > assume that he had his hands in this kettle. I can't remember the specifics, > but there is a monument there today with one of the original salt kettles. > > This salt could have gone in several directions....... > By water to the Wabash, and upstream toward Northern Indiana and Western Ohio. > > By water to the Wabash, and downstream to the Ohio, where it could have gone > upstream and back East, or it could have gone downstream to the Mississippi. > From there it could have gone North to Ft. DesChartres and St. Louis for use > in the western fur trade, or it could have gone South downstream toward New > Orleans and points in between. > > Thirdly, and highly likely, it could have gone overland, North to Chicago. > As I mentioned in earlier postings, Hubbard often transported goods overland > both by foot and on horseback. From here, the salt could have gone down the > Illinois by boat, or back to the main factory at Ft. Mackinaw. > > At some time, the operation ceased to be profitable and went under. I read > the documentation for this many years ago in papers written and stored in > Vermilion County and compiled into the "History of Vermilion Country." Had I > been as engrossed in history back then as I am now, I would have paid closer > attention to the details. My mother-in-law has a copy of the book, and next > time down, I will obtain and reread it. Sorry for all the assumptions, but > some of the facts may help clarify salt operations in the fur trade. > > Dave Kanger Hey, Now we're cooking, thanks Dave that's the stuff we want. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 12:40:08 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: > > Y'know, anyone that can stir that much, that fast.. I like.. > D > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 WHY, THANK YOU DENNIS. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 12:41:40 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > On Sun, 01 August 1999, "Concho" wrote: > > > DL > > > You will find that weekends are pretty slow and the volume of discussions during the week will fluctuate a lot, particularly in the summer months....too many things to do, presumably. Don't be shy, throw out something for discussion. A bone to the dogs, so to speak......the meatier the better. > ______________________________________________ > > Are you happy Concho, now you have gone and woke all these guys up. I had a couple of e-mails about two hours ago and just checked and found 31 of which 29 where new and a bunch from you. > > 1. You have started a discussion on storing salt, containers, etc. > > 2. Insulted me, Buck and my dog. > > 3. And started a pissing contest between several others. > > I told you guys about him, and you still left him stay on the list and he's only been on a few days, give him a few months and Dean will kick us all off. You should believe me, he got thrown out of the northwest territory, that's why he's back. > > Turtle. Cry baby, should have been Turtle Droppin's. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 12:44:01 -0700 > On Sun, 01 August 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: > > > Well now, Ain't that some....Shaaame on you Turtle...For Shaaame... > > > And behind our backs on top of that.....Tsk..Tsk... > > D > > Well boys, > > > > Turtle just wrote me off_list, see his reply: > > > > > >Buck, > > >These two are like the old joke about, "if my dog looked like that I'd > > >shave his butt and making them walk backwards." > > > > > >Turtle. Turtle I'm ashamed of such. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning recipes Date: 01 Aug 1999 14:45:30 -0500 For what it's worth, I had the great pleasure to meet Jo Brandl and his wife this summer at = their tannery and retail store in Wyoming and bought a buffalo robe = while I was there. I don't know anything about the tanning kit, but I = was very impressed with the Brandls, both as people and as experts on = tanning hides. If he says that the kit works great then my guess is that it works great, just like he says, and I wouldn't = hesitate to buy one if I needed it. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 2:23 PM > Scott, > We offer a home tanning kit based on our 11 years of hair on tanning. = Works > great. Cost is $39.95 plus shipping. will tan 2-3 deer skins or about = 4-5 > furs > Joe >=20 > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery > check out our NEW WEB SITE: > http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html > Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 > Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes > Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts >=20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Powderhawk" Subject: MtMan-List: Hey List Date: 01 Aug 1999 12:53:24 -0700 I'm afraid Turtle is right Concho, your back a few days and got all these guys taking cheap shots at each other (I know it's only because they're bored). Dave, Buck and Larry are the only ones that have given a straight answer that I can use, liked Lanney's information - don't shave like Dennis. But Concho and Turtle, what can be said about you two, other than the last time we where in a camp together (about 8 years ago) I know it was one of you that loaded the camp pot with Exlax and I will get way past even one day. Keep your powder dry Powderhawk Historian-Reenacter-Writer Lake Mills, IA Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:11:38 -0700 Yeah, I'm impressed ! Is this guy a fellow Texican ? If he ain't he ought to be. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Y'know, anyone that can stir that much, that fast.. I like.. >D > > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:11:49 -0700 You know, sometime back I suggested to Lanney that " in an effort to beautify America, he ought to consider growing the beard back ." Pendleton -----Original Message----- >> On Sun, 01 August 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: >> >> > Well now, Ain't that some....Shaaame on you Turtle...For Shaaame... >> >> > And behind our backs on top of that.....Tsk..Tsk... >> >> D >> > Well boys, >> > >> > Turtle just wrote me off_list, see his reply: >> > > >> > >Buck, >> > >These two are like the old joke about, "if my dog looked like that I'd >> > >shave his butt and making them walk backwards." >> > > >> > >Turtle. > >Turtle I'm ashamed of such. > >D. L. Smith >Washington, MO. >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey List Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:08:16 -0500 Powderhawk I didn't shave for the best part of 30 years but last year I whacked it = all off except for my moustaches. Never say never.....like I used to. = Shaving made me look a little younger, but I still get called "sir" by = grown women and get asked about Senior Citizen Discounts by resturant = cashiers. Waugh!! Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 2:53 PM > I'm afraid Turtle is right Concho, your back a few days and got all = these guys taking cheap shots at each other (I know it's only because = they're bored). >=20 > Dave, Buck and Larry are the only ones that have given a straight = answer that I can use, liked Lanney's information - don't shave like = Dennis. >=20 > But Concho and Turtle, what can be said about you two, other than the = last time we where in a camp together (about 8 years ago) I know it was = one of you that loaded the camp pot with Exlax and I will get way past = even one day.=20 >=20 >=20 > Keep your powder dry > Powderhawk > Historian-Reenacter-Writer > Lake Mills, IA > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:12:03 -0500 Larry, if he were a Texican he would have said so by now.... you should = know this. Lanney ----- Original Message ----- > Yeah, I'm impressed ! Is this guy a fellow Texican ? If he ain't he = ought > to be. > > > > > > > > >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:23:45 -0700 Oh no ! I'm sorry ! I guess I offended him. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Larry, if he were a Texican he would have said so by now.... you should know this. Lanney ----- Original Message ----- > Yeah, I'm impressed ! Is this guy a fellow Texican ? If he ain't he ought > to be. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey List Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:18:16 -0700 > > But Concho and Turtle, what can be said about you two, other than the last time we where in a camp together (about 8 years ago) I know it was one of you that loaded the camp pot with Exlax and I will get way past even one day. > > Hawk, If you remember you where on that grapefruit diet and then you guys made the camp stew, that would have wrecked all the grapefruit you ate. So we where just thinking of you, didn't know you invited the whole damn camp for dinner. Be happy there was a fast running stream that everyone could clean up in the next morning. Wow, what a mess !!! Couldn't stop laughing for several days. D. L. Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:23:07 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > Larry, if he were a Texican he would have said so by now.... you should know this. > Lanney > > Yeah, I'm impressed ! Is this guy a fellow Texican ? If he ain't he ought > > to be. > > Larry He isn't from any state, none of the lower 48 will lay claim to this one boys, I feel kind of sick that I know him and the trouble he has gotten me into over the years. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey List Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:25:29 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > Powderhawk > I didn't shave for the best part of 30 years but last year I whacked it all off except for my moustaches. Never say never.....like I used to. Shaving made me look a little younger, but I still get called "sir" by grown women and get asked about Senior Citizen Discounts by resturant cashiers. Waugh!! > Lanney He shave once, but ended up in jail for walking around backwards bent over with his drawers down - think he believed Concho ! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 16:24:27 -0400 > > >WHY, THANK YOU DENNIS. > > D. L. Smith > Washington, MO. >>Don't mention it, Sir... You can trust me for a straight, honest answer each & every time.. Unlike allot of the rabble that inhabit this list. D -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: Storing Salt Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:32:08 -0700 Wooden buckets. Ok, but is that a logical way for the men in the mountains on horseback to carry it ? Would they have taken the time to make new buckets when their's broke or wore out ? What about leather bags ? I know leather deteriates pretty quick in the presence of salt. What about it ? Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Sep 1999 01:02:23 +0000 4:00 p.m. EST This "list" looks like a chat room today. What's the matter trappers? Too hot for a campfire? It certainly is here in Georgia! Laura Lost Texas Girl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:40:26 -0700 Yes ma'am it is a might tepid today. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >4:00 p.m. EST > >This "list" looks like a chat room today. What's the matter trappers? >Too hot for a campfire? It certainly is here in Georgia! > >Laura >Lost Texas Girl > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey List Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:35:40 -0700 > > But Concho and Turtle, what can be said about you two, other than the last time we where in a camp together (about 8 years ago) I know it was one of you that loaded the camp pot with Exlax and I will get way past even one day. > > > > > Hawk, > If you remember you where on that grapefruit diet and then you guys made the camp stew, that would have wrecked all the grapefruit you ate. > > So we where just thinking of you, didn't know you invited the whole damn camp for dinner. > ________________________________ Pwdhwk, It was an accident, we where just looking at that boxes of chocolate, or we though it was chocolate, and Buck pushed me and - well the rest is history. God what a mess, all the port-johns where full and the lines where unbelieveable. Sorry, it was a mistake and Concho tried to get the four boxes out. If you want to get even, he was really laughting all the way home. Your close friend and brother. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 16:37:36 EDT small tin tins with a bit of beeswax around the outer edge works real fine. also, a short horn with a divider put up the center before its plugged, and dowels (or piano tuning keys) to plug the holes at the top has kept salt AND pepper in the same container (VERY CONVENIENT) perfectly dry while sitting out on the table in storms. IIRC, wax or pitch lined kegs were used to transport large quantities of salt in times gone bye. Barn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:51:39 -0500 Maybe this will answer your question: I have a laboratory themometer = with a 550 f maximum reading attached to the top of the visor in my = pickup and it reads 150....in the shade, not in direct sunlight. The = outside temp is about 105 and the wind is coming straight down. Wish I = were in Wyoming right now. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Friday, August 31, 1956 8:02 PM > 4:00 p.m. EST >=20 > This "list" looks like a chat room today. What's the matter trappers? = > Too hot for a campfire? It certainly is here in Georgia! >=20 > Laura > Lost Texas Girl >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:54:51 -0700 > This "list" looks like a chat room today. What's the matter trappers? > Too hot for a campfire? It certainly is here in Georgia! > Laura, I think who ever said "Concho" should have never been left on this list is pretty close to correct, that goes for most encampments - also, and if "Turtle" is with him - just call the police and have their butts locked up before they do some off the wall deal like what was mentioned earlier. they're damn lucky that one went away without any further problems. That whole deal is a story in it's self. As for the salt and carrying it any distance: I agree the wood buckets or iron pots would work for processing it. But for moving any distance, probably like anything else, wrapped in cloth or blanket material - then some kinds of water proof covering like greased leather or rawhide, just a guess - anyone have any documentations after being processed and "caked". I wonder how it would be stored after reaching a large camp or settlement for a long period of time - their conditions where not the best for such items. This is a subject that you can find bits and pieces, and not a clear picture of the complete operation. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 13:57:35 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > > small tin tins with a bit of beeswax around the outer edge works real fine. > also, a short horn with a divider put up the center before its plugged, and > dowels (or piano tuning keys) to plug the holes at the top has kept salt AND > pepper in the same container (VERY CONVENIENT) perfectly dry while sitting > out on the table in storms. IIRC, wax or pitch lined kegs were used to > transport large quantities of salt in times gone bye. Barn problem is if left in a damp area for a period of time the salt get's hard and can't be removed from the horn. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 14:11:02 -0700 Sorry to hear that you got the too hots. It's beautifully comfortable out here on the left coast. Has been for weeks. Just right for sitting back in the evening and watching the sun set. B'str'd Laura Rugel Glise wrote: some ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: new e-mail address Date: 01 Aug 1999 16:04:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0128_01BEDC37.98E04860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a new e-mail address effective asap. The addresss rat@htcomp.net = will be invalid very soon. Lanney Ratcliff The new address is: lratcliff@exprestel.net note: that is a lower case "L", not an = upper case "i" ------=_NextPart_000_0128_01BEDC37.98E04860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lanney Ratcliff
The new address is:
 
lratcliff@exprestel.net =     =20 note: that is a lower case "L", not an upper case = "i"
------=_NextPart_000_0128_01BEDC37.98E04860-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 01 Aug 1999 16:21:41 -0500 Now Concho, see what you stirred up! On Caking the salt. we boiled some from sea water once and scraped it out of the pots into a wooden bowl, and being hygroscopic, it picked up water from the air, and caked overnight. If you leave a bag of salt open in the barn, it will cake in a few days or weeks to where you have to break it up to feed it. Seems to take care of itself. Now......are there any records of carrying maple sugar to Rendezvous??? Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey List Date: 01 Aug 1999 17:17:47 EDT Buck writes: > He shaved once, but ended up in jail for walking around backwards bent over > with his drawers down - think he believed Concho ! The story I heard was that he got carried away with that new straight razor and decided to use it all over his body. He shaved his legs and wrecked em....(say it fast a few times, you'll get it) Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Brooks" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: [Fwd: How to make a submission.] Date: 02 Aug 1999 21:17:04 +1200 Just come through from Cutfinger, thought i would pass it on. Some of you may be interested in what is happening on the firearms front in New Zealand. Kia Ora, Big Bear. In just as many gun antis Marlborough New Zealand. >>You will just LOVE the part that authorises the authorities to IMPLANT CHIPS >>in YOUR guns!!! [I kid you not - incredible........] Do you still think >>this is nothing serious????? http://www.clerk.parliament.govt.nz/publications/submission/contents.html >>JohnH >>"If tough gun laws work - why does crime increase?" >>"ACT to maintain your rights" >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 14:24:42 -0700 Do without? Don't think so. Hard to choke down that made meat without it, it seems. Most of the first hand accounts seem to consider it right up there with powder and ball, and a carrot of leaf. Lewis and Clark went to a lot of trouble to replenish their supply, even dividing their force with a two-man detachment for saltworks, which they generally tried not to do. Since the usage of salt was pretty regular it was usually bought in trade as making salt was not a profitable venture for an on-the-move hunter.=20 B'st'rd larry pendleton wrote: > mountains to be traded or sold ? Or did they cook it themselves or jus= t > made do without it ? I don't know. Me thinks we need more info. > Pendleton=D5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new e-mail address Date: 01 Aug 1999 17:23:04 EDT In a message dated 99-08-01 17:12:51 EDT, you write: > I have a new e-mail address effective asap. The addresss rat@htcomp.net = > will be invalid very soon. > Lanney Ratcliff Lanney, Looks like you have a new computer and email software too. You need to go in and configure it to turn off this flamin' red background. It can't be that much hotter out your way. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 17:29:49 -0400 Lanny wrote: >Do you have the photo of the razor I bought from you posted to your web >site? If not I will post it to you, or anyone else, as a jpg image. I've posted a photo of an early razor at: http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/razor.jpg This is the personal razor of Isaac Shelby. Shelby was a participant in the American Revolution, especially at Kings Mountain, was then the first Governor of Kentucky, also the fifth governor and active in the War of 1812. Don't know the exact date of the razor, but 1775-1815 is a reasonable estimate. Bob Bob Spencer Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hard Tack, Pilot Bread Date: 01 Aug 1999 17:31:30 EDT To All that asked: I don't have a scanner but will gladly mail a copy to anyone who sends an address. Can also fax a copy if number is provided. The article is from Mother Earth News, Vol. 21, page 72-73. And I was way off on the number of recipes I remembered. There are only 7. (sorry about that, hadn't looked at it in a long time) I apologize for taking so long to get back with the info. My son got married yesterday and I've been a wee bit preoccupied. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. box 1228 Quincy, Ca 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 18:16:52 EDT Howdy D. L. Smith from Washington Mo. Longshot here from just up the road in St. Louis. You make the rondy circuit around these parts? If so what's yer camp name so i might recognise ye. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hard Tack, Pilot Bread Date: 01 Aug 1999 15:17:16 -0700 Jimmy, Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!! John ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 2:31 PM > To All that asked: > > I don't have a scanner but will gladly mail a copy to anyone who sends an > address. Can also fax a copy if number is provided. The article is from > Mother Earth News, Vol. 21, page 72-73. And I was way off on the number of > recipes I remembered. There are only 7. (sorry about that, hadn't looked at > it in a long time) > > I apologize for taking so long to get back with the info. My son got > married yesterday and I've been a wee bit preoccupied. > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 > P.O. box 1228 > Quincy, Ca 95971 > (530)283-4566 (H) > (530)283-3330 (W) > (530)283-5171 FAX > Casapy123@aol.com. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: More On Illinois Salines Date: 01 Aug 1999 18:45:47 EDT I just did a little web search on the Vermilion Salines which I mentioned earlier. There is an historical marker there with this info on it. Salt Kettle At the Salt Kettle Rest Area off I-74 East Monument recognizes the Salines of the Vermilion, Vermilion County's first industry, referred to in French records as early as 1706. This definitely bears digging into now. I hadn't recalled the documentation of the site as reaching back that far. That makes it almost certain that salt from here was transported down the Wabash (Ouibache) to Ft. Ouitenon and some of the other early French outposts along that river. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 20:08:39 EDT alright DL. one post and you got half the list out from under their rocks... way to go. Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Brooks" Subject: MtMan-List: salt Date: 03 Aug 1999 00:32:20 +1200 I live just a few miles from a salt works.Solar style. Salt is evaporated from sea water in ponds. I can get salt in crystal form and that is how it comes ..in lumps from 1 to 7 inch thick. Salt as we know it has been ground.It can be crushed between stones on the trail .I have tried the back of a hawk but it leaves a metal taste. The best way is to carry a small lump of rock salt and a piece of old file. Just rub the rock salt over the file over the meal. Salt drops where you want it. Somehow the metal taste isn't transferred from the file.Wash file after use when you rinse utensils.DON"T use soap on it.You only do that once..... Kia Ora Big Bear In cool ..so cool sunny Marlborough New Zealand. >> Back to the original question, if they did cook salt, how did they carry >> large amounts of it and keep it semi-dry and usable ? >in Kent or Virgina, showed a couple of men each carrying >>wooden buckets on a yoke, I guess they had salt ? > >I think Buck answered it "WOODEN BUCKETS" and it would be "CAKED" - not sure how you would go about doing this operation, unless just adding moisture to the top layer with water ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Brooks" Subject: MtMan-List: salt Date: 03 Aug 1999 00:46:11 +1200 > >As for the salt and carrying it any distance: I agree the wood buckets or iron pots would work for processing it. But for moving any distance, probably like anything else, wrapped in cloth or blanket material - then some kinds of water proof covering like greased leather or rawhide, just a guess - anyone have any documentations after being processed and "caked". I wonder how it would be stored after reaching a large camp or settlement for a long period of time - their conditions where not the best for such items. Buck, In NZ up until about 30years ago ,until the advent of plastic containers salt was shipped around the country in wooden kegs like wine barrels or powder kegs. They were about 18 inch in Diameter and about 2 foot high. I have one here I use as a rubbish bin in the office. The wooden lids were nailed on. Sugar, flour etc were all shipped the same way. When it got to the trader it was weighed out as required. We used to bust them up for kindling wood. Wish I had kept some. If salt gets wet no harm comes to it. It can be still used..unlike flour. If salt gets dirty it can be washed in a very salty brine solution and dried and powdered or ground.Thats what used to happen here for what it is worth Kia Ora Big Bear In still cool Overcast Marlborough New Zealand. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Brooks" Subject: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 03 Aug 1999 00:53:36 +1200 Re salt going hard in horns. Try putting some rice in the horn with the salt. The Rice is supposed to soak up any moisture that gets in. Have never tried it so can't speak from experience.Try it and see what happens Kia Ora Big Bear In cool overcast Marlborough New Zealand. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 18:57:52 -0700 > On Mon, 02 August 1999, "The Brooks" wrote: > Re salt going hard in horns. Try putting some rice in the > horn with the salt. The Rice is supposed to soak up any > moisture that gets in. Have never tried it so can't speak > from experience.Try it and see what happens > Kia Ora > Big Bear > In cool overcast Marlborough New Zealand. Had done this for years, using a little white rice and pepper and salt mix, worked very nicely as long as it was kept fairly dry - could handle a little moisture. But you have to check it because the rice will swell and slow down - or stop the flow of the salt from exiting the hole. That's when we started using a small tin container (tinned inside) with a greased leather bag, if it get moisture it's no big deal as it can be broken up from it's "caked" state and still used. There's probably a dozen different ways to carry small amounts, each a little different - depending on the area and the situtations you become involved with water, in the form of moisture to a complete dunking. I would think the early natives that grew gourds had a good container and as a last resort could dig the salt out with a stick if the mouth of the gourd was large enough. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 20:11:16 -0600 From Deans page Journal of a Trapper: "Here are some fine Salt Springs the Salt forms on the pebbles by evaporation to the depth of 5 or 6 inch in a short time after the snow has dissappeared 11th May After gathering a Supply of Salt we travelled down the river about 15 miles and encamped near the mouth of a stream on the west side called Gardners Fork. " As to containers it doesn't say, but they obviousily gathered their own from salt springs (mentioned several times in the journal). York Boat Bill of lading 1803 "Kegs or Casks of Salt" Ron -----Original Message----- >Buck, > Your right, I seem to remember an artist's rendition of someone cooking >salt, possibly in Utah. I also read that Lewis and Clark carried a large >quanity of salt and if memory serves me correctly, they cooked a large >amount of salt on the west coast. I'm not sure this was a common practice >with The Rocky Mountain Fur Trappers. Did the traders carry salt to the >mountains to be traded or sold ? Or did they cook it themselves or just >made do without it ? I don't know. Me thinks we need more info. >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: Buck >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 11:03 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices > > >>On Sun, 01 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: >> >>> >>> Bill, >>> The trappers carried their salt for personal use in horn containers, >since >>> these were the only waterproof containers they had. A question I have, >is >>> how did the trappers carry larger quanities of salt, such as the amount >>> needed to supply a whole party ? There are accounts of groups of >trappers >>> carrying " gallons " of salt to be used by parties. I am not sure this >was >>> a common practice of the mountain men, but it is well documented that the >>> longhunters of the 18th century certainly did. The reason I am not >certain >>> if the mountain men carried such quanities of salt is that in doing the >>> reasearch for the sign language tape, I found that according to W. P. >Clark >>> the plains Indians did not use salt. In fact the sign for salt is " >taste , >>> bad, white. " Does anyone have any further info ? >>> Pendleton >> >>Larry & Bill, >> >>For large quanities I read some where of traders carrying "caked" salt in >wooden buckets to settlements from the Mississippi River east. >> >>Didn't Clymer or another artist do research on the salt operation in >southern Utah - painted a picture of such activity with whites and Indians, >cooking salt and salt stored in wooden buckets. >> >>In one issue of Muzzleloader there was an article about the salt operation >in Kent or Virgina, showed a couple of men each carrying wooden buckets on a >yoke, I guess they had salt ? >> >> >>Later, >>Buck Conner >>dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory >>_____________________________________ >>Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade >>and early history of the times, the one the >>American Mountain Men read and write: >> >>The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * >>Conklin, MI 49403 >>ATTN: Jon Link >> >>The subscription for the journal is $20 for a >>year or $35 for two years. You will receive >>quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. >>_____________________________________ >> >> >> >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 19:21:51 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > > alright DL. one post and you got half the list out > from under their rocks... way to go. Barney Fife "Honest Officer I was just standing there and this ....." Let me clear up a few things, I moved from ILL about 12-13 years ago and moved to Canada to teach Junior High - was a 5 year contract in a private school, got extended for a total of 12 years. I decided to move back to the MO / ILL area because of relations in both states. Don't believe Buck, Turtle or Powderhawk - I wasn't tarred or feathered and the rope burns weren't that bad - only kidding. Many of the boys years back in and around the Ft. Osage to Ft.deChartre have camped, canoed or rode with us at one time or another. Old Ron Hacker, Frenchy and Fellows probably remember some good parties at deChartre. The lines at the john's weren't that long Buck and many said the stew had a sweet taste !!! Just thought it didn't agree with them, darnest thing. If your in the area at Ft. Osage to Ft.deChartre give a camp yell for "Concho" and listen up, ye will yell back. I can see you ladies and gentlemen have a good sense of humor, sound like my kind of folk. Thank you for your time. D. L. "Concho" Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 01 Aug 1999 19:25:39 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > > Now Concho, see what you stirred up! > > On Caking the salt. we boiled some from sea water once and scraped it > out of the pots into a wooden bowl, and being hygroscopic, it picked up > water from the air, and caked overnight. If you leave a bag of salt > open in the barn, it will cake in a few days or weeks to where you have > to break it up to feed it. Seems to take care of itself. Folks, This be a "salty" list - anbody got a drink. > > Now......are there any records of carrying maple sugar to Rendezvous??? > > Rock D. L. "Concho" Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 19:32:01 -0700 > > small tin tins with a bit of beeswax around the outer edge works real fine. > > also, a short horn with a divider put up the center before its plugged, and > > dowels (or piano tuning keys) to plug the holes at the top has kept salt AND > > pepper in the same container (VERY CONVENIENT) perfectly dry while sitting > > out on the table in storms. IIRC, wax or pitch lined kegs were used to > > transport large quantities of salt in times gone bye. Barn > > problem is if left in a damp area for a period of time the salt get's hard and can't be removed from the horn. > > Later, > Buck Conner I remember seeing Buck stepping out of a canoe at Ft. Osage (the Corp of Engr. had just work the sides over), I was in water to my knees (on the shelf). He missed the shelf and disappeared (about 15 foot down) darn - he got his salt wet, along with everything he had on. Buck do you remember, your little greased bag didn't help. D. L. "Concho" Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 01 Aug 1999 22:33:41 -0400 > >>>>>> > > I remember seeing Buck stepping out of a canoe at Ft. Osage (the Corp of Engr. had just work the sides over), I was in water to my knees (on the shelf). He missed the shelf and disappeared (about 15 foot down) darn - he got his salt wet, along with everything he had on. Buck do you remember, your little greased bag didn't help. Tell us more, will you?? D Doc Newell, Ohio Party AMM "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 19:36:01 -0700 > This "list" looks like a chat room today. > Laura, > > I think who ever said "Concho" should have never > been left on this list is pretty close to correct, > Buck Conner "unfair and unjust treatment" from a little lady I haven't had the pleasure of meeting, as for the other one - should have left him drawn at Osage. D. L. "Concho" Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bvannoy Subject: MtMan-List: salt Date: 01 Aug 1999 21:30:51 -0500 Boy, you aren't kidding, there, "Concho". A woman doesn't need to come in after being out in the garden to all this talk about salt! I need a beer! Badger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hey List Date: 01 Aug 1999 19:40:48 -0700 > It was an accident, we where just looking at that boxes of chocolate, or we though it was chocolate, and Buck pushed me ... Now who the bad butt here, we where just looking. > God what a mess, all the port-johns where full and the lines where unbelieveable..... Seen longer at a PX on two for one sales. > Sorry, it was a mistake and Concho tried to get the four boxes out....... What a guy, tried to get that nasty cardboard out. D. L. "Concho" Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 19:45:17 -0700 On Sun, 01 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > > Oh no ! I'm sorry ! I guess I offended him. > Pendleton > Larry, if he were a Texican he would have said so by now.... you should know > this. > Lanney What's wrong with Texican's, you guys look like you like to have fun, where do I sign up at boys. D. L. "Concho" Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 19:47:34 -0700 > He isn't from any state, none of the lower 48 will lay claim to this one boys, I feel kind of sick that I know him and the trouble he has gotten me into over the years. > > Who wrote this, they're low to the ground and crawl on their belly - Turtle did you do this. D. L. "Concho" Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 22:46:39 -0400 I think to become a Texiacan, ya gotta sign in blood and it don't really gotta be yours... D concho@uswestmail.net wrote: > On Sun, 01 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > > > > > Oh no ! I'm sorry ! I guess I offended him. > > Pendleton > > Larry, if he were a Texican he would have said so by now.... you should know > > this. > > Lanney > > What's wrong with Texican's, you guys look like you like to have fun, where do I sign up at boys. > > D. L. "Concho" Smith > Washington, MO. > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 20:06:11 -0700 > On Sun, 01 August 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: > > I think to become a Texiacan, ya gotta sign in blood and it don't really gotta be yours... > D > > > > Oh no ! I'm sorry ! I guess I offended him. > > > Pendleton > > > Larry, if he were a Texican he would have said so by now.... you should know > > > this. > > > Lanney > > > > What's wrong with Texican's, you guys look like you like to have fun, where do I sign up at boys. > > > > D. L. "Concho" Smith Dennis if that's the case and your sure "it don't really gotta be yours...", does Buck still drink. Oh, he wasn't drinking the evening to took a swim at Osage, poor Old Grady's (Ft. Capt.) eye's where bigger than Buck's. Tell you what, "quill work" sure don't do good in Missouri River water, made some good repair work for Jan Zelter - so at least one person was happy. The boys that dug the river where lucky to not be around, Buck would have warmed some tails with Mrs. Jager (his new shootin iron)if he could have stood up while treading water. Can still see his face, I still laugh about that Buck. Folks, I had better get off, seems I have opened a large can of worms with a few members of this list, and a butt chewing is probably real close by now. HE HE D. L. "Concho" Smith Washington, MO. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 20:31:22 -0700 > Folks, I had better get off, seems I have opened a large can of worms with a few members of this list, and a butt chewing is probably real close by now. HE HE > Say good night, old friend Sorry for not signing, and stop saying I craw. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: GW's kitchen mess kit - metal tin containers Date: 01 Aug 1999 23:34:03 -0400 (EDT) "the outside had turned a dark gray color from age" --- wonder if it could have been pewtered [tin-lead alloy] with maybe some silver added ? - are ye originally from near the Musselshell? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 23:57:49 -0400 Great idea :) I'll be going to the NMLRA Eastern in Sept in West Va, so if any of you are there, look for thje sign "MOUSE HOUSE" and stop by. There is always something in the pot (not sure what kinda meat) and the coffee is always hot... Would love to meet some of you face to face... Addison and Vicki Miller Little Wolf and Mouse >Let discuss some fur trade, rendezvous or ones coming up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 01 Aug 1999 22:05:14 -0500 We DO manage to have a good time occasionally. Maybe you could come = down an visit sometime. Lanney=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 9:45 PM > On Sun, 01 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: >=20 > >=20 > > Oh no ! I'm sorry ! I guess I offended him. > > Pendleton > > Larry, if he were a Texican he would have said so by now.... you = should know > > this. > > Lanney >=20 > What's wrong with Texican's, you guys look like you like to have fun, = where do I sign up at boys.=20 >=20 >=20 > D. L. "Concho" Smith > Washington, MO. > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Ferris on Salt Date: 01 Aug 1999 22:37:27 -0600 Hello the list, Interesting discussion on salt. In Life in the Rocky Mountains, Ferris wrote: Page 128 "At the mouth of Beaver Creek the mountains retire apart leaving a beautiful valley fifteen miles long, and six to eight broad, watered by several small streams which unite and form "Salt River", so called from the quantity of salt, in a crystalized form, found upon most of it's branches.." On page 266 he continues to talk about the same area; "The salt found in the country is, however, more commonly found attached to stones, in the bottoms of dried up pools, like ice, and requires a hard blow, in most cases, to separate them. Breaking from the strata as much salt as we coud conveniently carry, we collected the fragments and put them into bags, which we lashed to our saddles, and sallied out into the prairie on our return to camp." Yet more on page 346. "We passed three miles down the river, and found the salt in a slough on the west side of it. It was found on the surface of a black stinking mire, fifty or sixty paces in circuit; the upper stata was fine, and white as snow, to the depth of two inches; beneath which, was a layer of beautiful crystals, to the depth of five or six inches, that rested on the surface of the mire. We slowly sank into the latter to our knees, whilst scooping up the salt, and then changed places, for we could scarcely extricate ourselves at the depth; and concluded that if we should remain long enough in the same spot, we would at length disappear entirely. This opinion was coroborated by thrusting down a stick four feet in length, without meeting any resistance, more than at the surface. I gathered about half a bushel in a few minutes, and returned with my companions, who were equally fortunate, to camp." Osborne Russell talked about Salt River area on page 12; "On the 10th of May we moved down the river about 12 miles to a stream running into it on the west side called Scotts Fork. Here are some fine Salt Springs the Salt forms on the pebbles by evaporation to the depth of 5 or 6 inches in a short time after the snow has disappeared 11th May After gathering a Supply of Salt we traveled down the river 15 miles....." On page 96 Russell talks about returning to the salt springs to gather salt. Charles Larpenteur on page 48 of his book said; " I had a partner, a German, and we could together purchase a bladder (of pemmincan); but as to salt and pepper, which we had to buy-salt $1 a pint, pepper $2-we were not in partnership. each had his small sach containing pepper and salt mixed, and used it as he thought proper." With all this salt around, I wouldn't be inclined to think that too much of it was hauled all the way out to rendezvous from St. Louis. Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James A Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tarps Date: 02 Aug 1999 08:26:49 -0500 You might look for a heavy painters cloth, some are pretty good canvas. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Buck" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GW's kitchen mess kit - metal tin containers Date: 02 Aug 1999 06:32:44 -0700 > On Sun, 01 August 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > "the outside had turned a dark gray color from age" --- wonder if it > could have been pewtered [tin-lead alloy] with maybe some silver added ? > ------------------------------------------------------nickname of Concho > - are ye originally from near the Musselshell? Jon, That's a good point, I will contact a friend that is still involved with the Valley Forge Historical Society and ask him your question. That was a fashionable thing in Washington's Day and seeing how the "kitchen mess" belonged to him that could be, it's been at least 15 years since I looked at the set and can't remember now. I'll get back with an answer Jon. As far as D.L. "Concho" Smith, I believe he was raised in southern CA - but moved around the country - military brat. As this past weekend has shown, he can sure stir things up: at a camp, while traveling period, even at a 7-11 when stopping for gas, and now the internet. Like someone said, lock your daughters and small animals up - he's back. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory _____________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning recipes Date: 02 Aug 1999 09:07:13 -0600 Ah, Thanks Lanney Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: White Women in the West (was: Women at Rendezvous) Date: 02 Aug 1999 09:12:33 -0600 "Kurt Westenbarger" wrote: >>Just to clear up the white women in the west story a little: Narcissa Whitman and Eliza Spaulding traveled west together with their missionary husbands in 1836<<. Here are some other white women involved in the fur trade, when they were out west, & where (gleaned from Sylvia Van Kirk's _Many Tender Ties_; I've left out all the white settlers in Red River/Winnipeg): Marie-Anne Lajimoniere nee Gaboury 1806-1850's until 1812, just about anywhere in Manitoba & Saskatchewan! After 1812(?), Red River area Jane Barnes 1813-1815? Ft. George (Astoria) Eliza Tod nee Waugh 1835?-1838? Bas de la Riviere, then Oxford House (she had a nervous breakdown & had to go back east) Catherine McTavish nee Turner 1830-? Moose Factory Mary Ross nee McBeath 1813-1838? Red R., Norway House Christy McVicar nee McBeath 1813-early 1830's Ft. Chipewyan, Red River Jane Beaver (wife of Rev. Beaver) 1836-1838 Ft. Vancouver Narcissa Whitman 1836-1847 Ft. Vancouver, Walla Walla The last two items make me really wonder--did Jane Beaver and Narcissa Whitman meet at Fort Vancouver? Does anyone know? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 02 Aug 1999 09:13:18 -0600 On the Swan River (W. Manitoba), there was a salt spring whose waters NW Co. voyageurs boiled to make salt. "It is not so strong, as that wich comes from Canada, but it preserves Meat &c. well." 1804, IIRC (Harmon, 34) Salt was also made by boiling water from "the saline Brooks of the Red River". (Thompson, _Narrative_, 151) As Ron pointed out, salt was shipped in kegs. (Why carry it in open wooden pails when a cooper can make a keg with only a little more effort?) Some folks may recall that I said I was pretty sure that "York Boat Bill of Lading" was actually for a North West Company Montreal Canoe. Well, have a look at www.civilization.ca/membrs/canhist/canoe/can07eng.htm (the Canadian Museum of Civilization's website) for a Montreal Canoe bill of lading to compare for yourselves. It's part of a great new virtual exhibit on the history of canoes; well worth checking out! Finally, some people _did_ manage to get by without salt. Midshipman Hood was wintering at the HBC's Cumberland House in 1819 when he wrote "The Indians do not use salt, and the Europeans indulge a little indolence at the expence of living without it; for though it is found in many parts of the country, in springs and on the earth, they eat fish the whole year improvided with it..." (Hood, 47) In other words, making salt for their food wasn't worth the effort! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Darwin Subject: MtMan-List: Santa Fe Hawkin Rifle Date: 02 Aug 1999 11:49:24 -0500 I've been reading this site for a couple of weeks now. I have a Santa Fe Hawken (the old Santa Fe Arms Co.) kit I purchased in 1981. It has never been finished. Does anyone have any recommendations on a good stockman or builder who could do this work? Also I'm looking for a CVA Trapper or Skinner knife. I know they don't make them any more. I am hoping to find one or both completed or still in kit form. Thanks for everyone's help. -- John Darwin JCPenney jdarwin@jcpenney.com 972-431-4804 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Salt Date: 02 Aug 1999 10:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Hello the list: Just got back from a week Vacation, on "Grand Lake" in N.E. Oklahoma. Returned to 186 messiges (1) off list. You folks were busy last week! In the days of the Roman Empire, salt, being important in preserving food was used to [pay] the men in the army (so many bags per month). They could "barter" the salt for other goods. Hence the terms "Not worth his salt"and "Salary" from saline or salt. I cannot track this statement, but I taught science for 29 years and remember it from somewhere. === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: Please forgive me. Date: 02 Aug 1999 12:21:18 -0700 Ladies & Gentlemen, Please forgive the number of e-mail's I was responsible for on Sunday, seems to have gotten out of hand for several of us. I usually don't do things as such, maybe it was the moon, being bored, or a very small chance that others tricked me into running off at the mouth. Mr. Miles tells me this is an old Texas trick that has been used on him several times over the years. Even Miss Laura has questioned who I am, why my location is one place, my e-mail another, so on and so on. I'm just a victim of a friend, one could say - he set me up in more than one way, thanks for getting me this e-mail Buck and I'm glad I told them about you taking a swim in the Missouri. That makes it all worthwhile old friend, I think others will agree if they know you. Dennis tells me he now owns Mrs. Jager, that's a suprise - the way she would shoot, didn't think she would ever leave home ! Need to get ready for several job interviews for tomorrow, if I'm working I'll not be bothering everyone on this list, have to admit yesterday was fun and everyone seemed to enjoy it. Thank you folks for your time. D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + "One who favors the finer things in life" Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: MtMan-List: North Star West Date: 02 Aug 1999 12:40:21 -0700 Anybody know the phone # for North Star West in Glencoe, Cal? I had it but it's gone now. Thanks in advance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GW's kitchen mess kit - metal tin containers Date: 02 Aug 1999 12:46:22 -0700 On Mon, 02 August 1999, "Buck" wrote: > > > On Sun, 01 August 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > > > "the outside had turned a dark gray color from age" --- wonder if it > > could have been pewtered [tin-lead alloy] with maybe some silver added ? Buck - sometimes it's hard to see if it's been "washed" as Jon has mentioned, not like the stuff from the 30's that peels. Usually has a light blue modeled tint to the appearance under direct sunlight (in several places - like the bottom, or behind a handle where its protected from handling. > ------------------------------ > As far as D.L. "Concho" Smith, I believe he was raised in southern CA - but moved around the country - military brat........... Several location in CA, what do you mean "brat" ????? D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + "One who favors the finer things in life" Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: MtMan-List: Ph # for North Star Date: 02 Aug 1999 12:59:12 -0700 Nevermind, my decrepit old eyes see it here now. Thanks in reverse. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Powderhawk" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Please forgive me. Date: 02 Aug 1999 13:55:46 -0700 > Please forgive the number of e-mail's I was responsible for on Sunday, ...... > Even Miss Laura has questioned who I am, why my ..... SHE REALLY DOESN'T WANT TO KNOW > thanks for getting me this e-mail Buck and I'm glad I told them about you ....... YOU OL HOSS YOU HAVE BLAMED EVERYONE FOR YOUR DOIN'S > "One who favors the finer things in life" SOME OF THE LADIES WHERE JUST THAT, BUT NOW DO WHAT WE KNOW YOU CAN DO - LET'S TALK HISTORY D.L. - THAT'S WHAT THIS LIST IS ALL ABOUT. YOU SAID YOUR SORRY, LET IT LAY AND NOBODY GET HIM STARTED AGAIN. HAWK Keep your powder dry Powderhawk Historian-Reenacter-Writer Lake Mills, IA Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: SPICES available in North America. Date: 02 Aug 1999 18:14:05 -0700 > On Mon, 02 August 1999, "Powderhawk" wrote: > > Please forgive the number of e-mail's I was responsible for on Sunday, ...... > > > Even Miss Laura has questioned who I am, why my ..... > SHE REALLY DOESN'T WANT TO KNOW > > > thanks for getting me this e-mail Buck and I'm glad I told them about you ....... > YOU OL HOSS YOU HAVE BLAMED EVERYONE FOR YOUR DOIN'S > > > "One who favors the finer things in life" > SOME OF THE LADIES WHERE JUST THAT, BUT NOW DO WHAT WE KNOW YOU CAN DO - LET'S TALK HISTORY D.L. - THAT'S WHAT THIS LIST IS ALL ABOUT. > > YOU SAID YOUR SORRY, LET IT LAY AND NOBODY GET HIM STARTED AGAIN. > > HAWK Leave the ladies out of it, for once in your life settle down and be cool, Hawk. Yes, I have had some times, and plan on many more once employed. Looking for a brainless type of job for a change, no pressure this time. Hey Hawk, these guys have a good discussion on salt going, like how Dave K. writes and researches, and the others also - sorry don't have your names in front of me, but this is a good group that really pull together on a subject, that's great. Hey what about the types of spices available, we got a good start on salt, come on Buck - stop filling orders and get in here with us SPICES AVAILABLE in North America. What do you guys think, we could get Buck to build us a shopping list, he don't need much sleep the honey moon is over brother. D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + "One who favors the finer things in life" Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 02 Aug 1999 20:32:20 -0700 Kegs, blankets, bags. Well yeah. DUH ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- >On the Swan River (W. Manitoba), there was a salt spring whose waters NW Co. >voyageurs boiled to make salt. "It is not so strong, as that wich comes from >Canada, but it preserves Meat &c. well." 1804, IIRC (Harmon, 34) >Salt was also made by boiling water from "the saline Brooks of the Red >River". (Thompson, _Narrative_, 151) >As Ron pointed out, salt was shipped in kegs. (Why carry >it in open wooden pails when a cooper can make a keg with only a little more >effort?) Some folks may recall that I said I was pretty sure that "York Boat >Bill of Lading" was actually for a North West Company Montreal Canoe. Well, >have a look at www.civilization.ca/membrs/canhist/canoe/can07eng.htm (the >Canadian Museum of Civilization's website) for a Montreal Canoe bill of >lading to compare for yourselves. It's part of a great new virtual exhibit >on the history of canoes; well worth checking out! >Finally, some people _did_ manage to get by without salt. Midshipman Hood >was wintering at the HBC's Cumberland House in 1819 when he wrote "The >Indians do not use salt, and the Europeans indulge a little indolence at the >expence of living without it; for though it is found in many parts of the >country, in springs and on the earth, they eat fish the whole year >improvided with it..." (Hood, 47) In other words, making salt for their food >wasn't worth the effort! > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ferris on Salt Date: 02 Aug 1999 20:32:30 -0700 Allen, Thanks for the info. Looks like my ignorance is showing. I have Russell's and Leonard's journals puchased but have not picked them up yet. I'm looking forward to reading them. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Hello the list, > >Interesting discussion on salt. In Life in the Rocky Mountains, Ferris wrote: > >Page 128 "At the mouth of Beaver Creek the mountains retire apart leaving a >beautiful valley fifteen miles long, and six to eight broad, watered by >several small streams which unite and form "Salt River", so called from the >quantity of salt, in a crystalized form, found upon most of it's branches.." > >On page 266 he continues to talk about the same area; "The salt found in the >country is, however, more commonly found attached to stones, in the bottoms >of dried up pools, like ice, and requires a hard blow, in most cases, to >separate them. Breaking from the strata as much salt as we coud >conveniently carry, we collected the fragments and put them into bags, which >we lashed to our saddles, and sallied out into the prairie on our return to >camp." > >Yet more on page 346. "We passed three miles down the river, and found the >salt in a slough on the west side of it. It was found on the surface of a >black stinking mire, fifty or sixty paces in circuit; the upper stata was >fine, and white as snow, to the depth of two inches; beneath which, was a >layer of beautiful crystals, to the depth of five or six inches, that rested >on the surface of the mire. We slowly sank into the latter to our knees, >whilst scooping up the salt, and then changed places, for we could scarcely >extricate ourselves at the depth; and concluded that if we should remain >long enough in the same spot, we would at length disappear entirely. This >opinion was coroborated by thrusting down a stick four feet in length, >without meeting any resistance, more than at the surface. I gathered about >half a bushel in a few minutes, and returned with my companions, who were >equally fortunate, to camp." > >Osborne Russell talked about Salt River area on page 12; "On the 10th of May >we moved down the river about 12 miles to a stream running into it on the >west side called Scotts Fork. Here are some fine Salt Springs the Salt >forms on the pebbles by evaporation to the depth of 5 or 6 inches in a short >time after the snow has disappeared 11th May After gathering a Supply of >Salt we traveled down the river 15 miles....." > >On page 96 Russell talks about returning to the salt springs to gather salt. > >Charles Larpenteur on page 48 of his book said; " I had a partner, a German, >and we could together purchase a bladder (of pemmincan); but as to salt and >pepper, which we had to buy-salt $1 a pint, pepper $2-we were not in >partnership. each had his small sach containing pepper and salt mixed, and >used it as he thought proper." > >With all this salt around, I wouldn't be inclined to think that too much of >it was hauled all the way out to rendezvous from St. Louis. > >Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SPICES available in North America. Date: 02 Aug 1999 18:36:16 -0700 > Hey what about the types of spices available, we got a good start on salt, come on Buck - stop filling orders and get in here with us SPICES AVAILABLE in North America. What do you guys think, we could get Buck to build us a shopping list, he don't need much sleep the honey moon is over brother. > "Concho" _____________________________________ Just copied this from Clark & Sons Mercantile web site, Buck won't mind - he always says he would rather see us use correct items and not junk foods. _____________________________________ Herbs These herbs are used as medicine, seasonings or just for decoration, all have been dated earlier than 1800. Agronomy/American Pennyroyal: Listed in history as an American Indian herb, used for insect repellent. Basil/Brunet: A well known pair of herbs, known to provide a aromatic relief for the nose. Butterfly Weed: Same as above. Caraway: Has some medical uses, licorice taste used on rye bread by early colonists. Chives: A flavoring for soups, breads, salads, etc. by native Americans and colonists. Coriander, Dill: Flavoring or seasoning. Garlic Chives: Member of the onion family, used for seasoning in soups and salads. Horehound: Used in teas, candy for sore throat problems. Sweet Cicely: Licorice flavor used in cooking for seasoning. Sweet Marjoram: Old medical herb, used for colds in soup and stews. Columbine, elecamane, feverfew, hollyhock, job’s tear, larkspur, lunaria, thin-leafed coneflower, these are all decoration plants and not to be used internally by all means. LEGEND Approximate documented and dated items grown or traded in North America, we have found something’s earlier than listed, but not that common for the working class or local trade. Pa. German - before 1750 * Before 1800 - trade item ** Northeast - before 1820 @ Southwest - before 1830 # Herbs & Spices Basil * Bay leaves * Cayenne pepper * Cinnamon sticks * Cloves-whole * Garlic-granules * Nutmeg-whole * Pepper-crushed red * Rose hips-seedless * Ginger root-dried * Mustard seed-whole * Remember the local natives had many more not listed, but hard to document as there are few records, just passed down word of mouth, generation to generation. _____________________________________ We got a pretty good start on our shopping list with out to much effort, thanks to Buck. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tanning recipes Date: 02 Aug 1999 21:17:21 -0500 It was simply the unvarnished truth. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 10:07 AM > Ah, Thanks Lanney > Joe >=20 > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery > check out our NEW WEB SITE: > http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html > Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 > Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes > Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts >=20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 02 Aug 1999 21:44:58 -0700 So you folks won't misunderstand my previous post, I hadn't even thought of wooden kegs. Oh well ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Kegs, blankets, bags. Well yeah. DUH ! >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: Angela Gottfred >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 8:14 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices > > >>On the Swan River (W. Manitoba), there was a salt spring whose waters NW >Co. >>voyageurs boiled to make salt. "It is not so strong, as that wich comes >from >>Canada, but it preserves Meat &c. well." 1804, IIRC (Harmon, 34) >>Salt was also made by boiling water from "the saline Brooks of the Red >>River". (Thompson, _Narrative_, 151) >>As Ron pointed out, salt was shipped in kegs. (Why carry >>it in open wooden pails when a cooper can make a keg with only a little >more >>effort?) Some folks may recall that I said I was pretty sure that "York >Boat >>Bill of Lading" was actually for a North West Company Montreal Canoe. Well, >>have a look at www.civilization.ca/membrs/canhist/canoe/can07eng.htm (the >>Canadian Museum of Civilization's website) for a Montreal Canoe bill of >>lading to compare for yourselves. It's part of a great new virtual exhibit >>on the history of canoes; well worth checking out! >>Finally, some people _did_ manage to get by without salt. Midshipman Hood >>was wintering at the HBC's Cumberland House in 1819 when he wrote "The >>Indians do not use salt, and the Europeans indulge a little indolence at >the >>expence of living without it; for though it is found in many parts of the >>country, in springs and on the earth, they eat fish the whole year >>improvided with it..." (Hood, 47) In other words, making salt for their >food >>wasn't worth the effort! >> >>Your humble & obedient servant, >>Angela Gottfred >>agottfre@telusplanet.net >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tarps Date: 02 Aug 1999 19:43:42 -0700 (PDT) On Sun, 1 Aug 1999 Cherokeoil@aol.com wrote: > I would like to know if a tarp with grommets in it would work if i sewed some > leather over them? If not does anyone have any idea`s where i could get a > tarp without grommets around KC area or any mail order places? Thanks. Hallo As a part-time chimney sweep, I go through a lot of tarps... your local paint store/hardware store should have them in all different sizes. One of the things to avoid when picking up tarps there is that some of the tarp companys put their very bright, very large logos on them in bright red (etc). These tarps are generally untreated, so if your looking for a "waterproof" canvas, you'll have to treat it with something... however, a tightly stretched canvas of good quality should shed water pretty well. Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 02 Aug 1999 20:19:59 -0700 (PDT) On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Angela Gottfred wrote: > Some folks may recall that I said I was pretty sure that "York Boat > Bill of Lading" was actually for a North West Company Montreal Canoe. Well, > have a look at www.civilization.ca/membrs/canhist/canoe/can07eng.htm Smallish correction... put an "l" on the end of the URL to get to that page..... i.e... http://www.civilization.ca/membrs/canhist/canoe/can07eng.html Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Canoes and such Date: 02 Aug 1999 20:31:54 -0700 (PDT) I was just checking out the page that Angela posted (about canoes and the bill of lading), really enjoyed the paintings of the canoe shooting the rapids.... We tried that this weekend in our 30' dugout with seven paddlers. Not recommended for the faint of heart. We actually didna mean too, but got caught in the current on the wrong side of an island on the Clearwater. I didna think much of it until our steersman, in talking with the bowman, stated.... "Dave... were not gonna make the good side". That kinda crystalized the situation to us poor oarsman/grunts... particularly when I looked up from my labors to see the rocks flip by. Pretty amazing watching the banks flash by in a blur while sitting in a hollowed out 800 lb log... and did you know that half submerged logs "whistle" as the water roars through them? Alls well that ends well however, and we managed to keep it sunny side up. Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Bill of Lading Date: 02 Aug 1999 20:59:25 -0700 (PDT) the canoe lists a "macaron of High Wines" What, may I ask, is a macaron? Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bill of Lading Date: 02 Aug 1999 23:22:03 -0500 Good question. Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary does not define the word, = nor is it used in any way in the dictionary. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 10:59 PM > the canoe lists a "macaron of High Wines" >=20 > What, may I ask, is a macaron? >=20 > Regards >=20 > Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho > NMLRA member 058863 > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: MtMan-List: Need Wood Date: 03 Aug 1999 12:43:47 -0400 I am doing a Kiowa cradle board and need Osage orange wood for the planks. Anyone know a source???? Help. Linda Holley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 03 Aug 1999 12:54:32 -0400 Unless I can sneak in, I have to stay home. You lucky duck to have the time to go. I may go in on one weekend if I can get away from school. Call in sick or so. I am getting very antsy here. The computer is going off and on and in the shop every day or so, and I want to go camping in COLD weather. It is dang HOT up here in Jax. Has to accidentally fall in my pond to get cool. The big koi fish were not impressed. Boy can they nibble. So maybe I will get to Eastern to say hello at the Mouse House, if not, see you at British Night Watch or the Alafia. Linda Holley ad.miller@mindspring.com wrote: > Great idea :) I'll be going to the NMLRA Eastern in Sept in West Va, so if > any of you are there, look for thje sign "MOUSE HOUSE" and stop by. There > is always something in the pot (not sure what kinda meat) and the coffee is > always hot... Would love to meet some of you face to face... > > Addison and Vicki Miller > Little Wolf and Mouse > > >Let discuss some fur trade, rendezvous or ones coming up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BucK" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SPICES available in North America. Date: 03 Aug 1999 10:56:32 -0700 On Mon, 02 August 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > Hey what about the types of spices available, we got a good start on salt, come on Buck - stop filling orders and get in here with us SPICES AVAILABLE in North America. What do you guys think, we could get Buck to build us a shopping list, he don't need much sleep the honey moon is over brother. > > "Concho" > _____________________________________ > Just copied this from Clark & Sons Mercantile web site, Buck won't mind - he always says he would rather see us use correct items and not junk foods. > _____________________________________ > Herbs > These herbs are used as medicine, seasonings or just for decoration, all have been dated earlier than 1800. > > Agronomy/American Pennyroyal: Listed in history as an American > Indian herb, used for insect repellent. > > Basil/Brunet: A well known pair of herbs, known to provide a > aromatic relief for the nose. > > Butterfly Weed: Same as above. > > Caraway: Has some medical uses, licorice taste used on rye bread > by early colonists. > > Chives: A flavoring for soups, breads, salads, etc. by native > Americans and colonists. > > Coriander, Dill: Flavoring or seasoning. > > Garlic Chives: Member of the onion family, used for seasoning > in soups and salads. > > Horehound: Used in teas, candy for sore throat problems. > > Sweet Cicely: Licorice flavor used in cooking for seasoning. > > Sweet Marjoram: Old medical herb, used for colds in soup and stews. > > Columbine, elecamane, feverfew, hollyhock, job?s tear, larkspur, > lunaria, thin-leafed coneflower, these are all decoration plants > and not to be used internally by all means. > > LEGEND > Approximate documented and dated items grown or traded in North > America, we have found something?s earlier than listed, but > not that common for the working class or local trade. > > Pa. German - before 1750 * > Before 1800 - trade item ** > Northeast - before 1820 @ > Southwest - before 1830 # > > Herbs & Spices > Basil * > Bay leaves * > Cayenne pepper * > Cinnamon sticks * > Cloves-whole * > Garlic-granules * > Nutmeg-whole * > Pepper-crushed red * > Rose hips-seedless * > Ginger root-dried * > Mustard seed-whole * > > Remember the local natives had many more not listed, but hard to document as there are few records, just passed down word of mouth, generation to generation. > _____________________________________ Tonight I will look in "Jefferson's Garden Book" this a great source book on cultivated edibles from his time to now. I use this book over and over again, it's amazing how many different vegetables, seeds and fruits he collected from around the world in his travels as a leader or advisor for this country in his life time. We would be very limited if it wasn't for TJ and his interest of cultivated and foraged edibles, the arts, books, etc., probably the father of research for the United States. He sold his first collection of books, around 7000 titles to the US Congress (now the Library of Congress Collection) after the British burned the original library. If your looking for various items that pretain to our history, a search on Jefferson will surprise you much of the time, as he will probably had his hand in one part or the other in the area your looking at. If your building a shopping list like one of you mentioned, I'll give you a fair listing of edibles that covers, vegetables, fruits, etc. - if enough want such a list. I would rather see you use correct items than not junk foods. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello List Date: 03 Aug 1999 16:01:32 -0400 HEY LINDA!!!! {{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}} Good to hear from you again dear :) We are pulling out of here on 20 Sept heading to the Eastern. MY daughter and son-in-law were at the last Alafia with us and got bit BAD by the Ronnyvous bug. They are going with us too... Ya know you always got a spot by the fire at the Mouse House and whatever is in the pot yer welcome to.... heh... just don't ask what it is... ya may not want to know. I promise if its road kill, it was fairly fresh... honest... *grins* Look forward to seein you there and at British Night Watch and the Alafia.... RONNY TIME!!!!!!! Tex and Mouse So maybe I will get to Eastern >to say hello at the Mouse House, if not, see you at British Night Watch or the >Alafia. > >Linda Holley > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SPICES available in North America. Date: 03 Aug 1999 17:31:41 -0400 >> > Hey what about the types of spices available, Mark Baker provides an excellent reference to such things in his book, "Sons of a Trackless Forest". There are many invoices or orders in the records of Baynton, Wharton and Morgan, doing business in Kaskaskia, Ill., in 1767-70. Bob Bob Spencer Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rob Voyles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Wood Date: 03 Aug 1999 15:18:48 -0700 -- On Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:43:47 Linda Holley wrote: >I am doing a Kiowa cradle board and need Osage orange wood for the planks. Anyone know a source???? Help. > >Linda Holley > > > > Linda, I don't know how cost effective this will be, but many primitive archery supply houses carry for it in raw stave form for making bows out of. You could use that as a source if need be. Rob Voyles (CA) HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Wood Date: 03 Aug 1999 18:42:08 EDT >I am doing a Kiowa cradle board and need Osage orange wood for the planks. >Anyone know a source???? Help Linda, Don't remember where you live, or if it grows there. Back here in Illinois it grows wild along the fencerows between farm fields. Any source for it would have to be hand cut and hand sawn. It's tolerable nasty stuff to work with and exceeds hickory in its hardness and resiliency. It is full of resin and eats saw blades, and the dust from it has toxic characteristics if inhaled. I have some small pieces, but not any planks. They would probably have to be custom cut by a bandsaw mill. How many do you need and what are the dimensions? Also, could you modify the pattern to substitute some of the wood for another kind, thus cutting back on the quantity required. I may or may not be able to help you depending on the size and quantity. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Wood Date: 03 Aug 1999 18:26:20 -0500 Dimensioned osage stock is available from suppliers like MacBeath Hardwoo= d in SLC. I don't recommend its use. Sawn lumber doesn't follow the grain. For Linda's project the wood should be rived (split with the grain) and scraped to final dimension (broken glass works well for a scraper). What she nee= ds is a section without knots (sometimes difficult to find with hedge apple). = A froe would be best for riving though the work could be done with wedges and gl= uts.=20 Knotty wood can be split just not easily. It used to be grown as thorny fence rows throughout the mid-west and sout= h.=20 The largest remaining stands I am aware of are in Texas. In Misery most = of it has been cut and burned. Burns well in a closed stove lousy in an open f= ire due to extreme popping with hot embers landing where you don't need them. If someone is replacing an ancient fence often the never rotting posts ar= e well seasoned bow d'arc and excellent for bows, cradle boards, striking tool handles and such. It's easy to identify they are usually black from the weather = and weigh about 50 lbs. each. The wood will still be a nice orange color ins= ide. John... At 06:42 PM 8/3/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I am doing a Kiowa cradle board and need Osage orange wood for the plan= ks.=A0=20 >>Anyone know a source????=A0=A0 Help > >Linda, >Don't remember where you live, or if it grows there.=A0 Back here in Ill= inois=20 >it grows wild along the fencerows between farm fields.=A0 Any source for= it=20 >would have to be hand cut and hand sawn.=A0 It's tolerable nasty stuff t= o work=20 >with and exceeds hickory in its hardness and resiliency.=A0 It is full o= f resin=20 >and eats saw blades, and the dust from it has toxic characteristics if=20 >inhaled.=A0 I have some small pieces, but not any planks.=A0 They would = probably=20 >have to be custom cut by a bandsaw mill. > >How many do you need and what are the dimensions?=A0 Also, could you mod= ify the=20 >pattern to substitute some of the wood for another kind, thus cutting ba= ck on=20 >the quantity required.=A0 I may or may not be able to help you depending= on the=20 >size and quantity. > >Dave Kanger >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SPICES available in North America. Date: 03 Aug 1999 16:49:52 -0700 On Tue, 03 August 1999, Bob Spencer wrote: > > >> > Hey what about the types of spices available, > > Mark Baker provides an excellent reference to such things in his book, > "Sons of a Trackless Forest". There are many invoices or orders in the > records of Baynton, Wharton and Morgan, doing business in Kaskaskia, Ill., > in 1767-70. > > Bob Haven't heard from Buck yet on this, but I know that Clark & Sons Mercantile furnished Mark Baker and Wes Houser with all their edibles, sweets, etc. for their last tapes they put out. I saw Mark had given C&SM credit in several of his articles for their research on same items over the last 3-4 years. They are the biggest and Goose Bay Workshops is starting to grow in the same direction behind Buck, Peter of GBW said that the two of them have been working together on cookwares and edibles for the last couple of years now. That's all they are looking at - in camp items, or edibles, cultivated and foraged. This is great for us that someone will take the time to work on these areas. Bill Gorbey that writes for "On The Trail", John Curry "Smoke & Fire", Brook Elliott "Smoke & Fire" and Mark Baker "Muzzleloader" also work with Buck in researching edibles, field testing new items and as seen in their columns in those journals covering foods and drinks, along with trekking. This sure gives us a good source, with foods, etc., plus articles, tapes and such from good documentation. We all need to thank these people for adding to our needs from time to time. Thanks Clark & Sons, Goose Bay,(suppliers) Mark Baker, John Curry, Bill Gorbey and Brook Elliott (articles and columns) for the support. See you down the trail. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Wood Date: 03 Aug 1999 20:06:45 -0500 -----Original Message----- >>I am doing a Kiowa cradle board and need Osage orange wood for the planks. Anyone know a source???? Help. Linda Holley<< Linda, Here are some sources. Hope you find what you are looking for. Good luck, Tony Clark Appalachian Millwork & Lumber Company: Exotic Woods www.erinet.com/hardwood/exotics.html Hardwoods and exotic woods www.northlandcorp.com/index.html EXOTIC WOODS SCOTT LUMBER CALIFORNIA www.scottlumber.com/s-exo.htm exotic woods www.schulercue.com/exoticwoods/exotic.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Wood Date: 03 Aug 1999 21:29:09 EDT In a message dated 99-08-03 19:28:15 EDT, you write: << If someone is replacing an ancient fence often the never rotting posts are well seasoned bow d'arc and excellent for bows, cradle boards, striking tool handles and such. >> I was just remembering Dad's post pile -- nearly all Osage orange - hedge - bo darc -- whatever you call it. Like John sail, each post weighed about 50 lbs. I know a lot of the posts from that pile have been in the ground for nearly 50 years & will still turn a cow. Unfortunately when I last visited the farm, the pile was down to the "culls" with nothing left that was suitable for bows. Would have been suitable for this cradle board project, but alas, Dad sold the farm last year. 8( I remember a lot of sweat & blood went into splitting out those posts -- that was before the modern invention of log splitters. Even they wouldn't have helped much splitting the 6' - 8' lengths, so it was all done with sledge & wedge. I know the stuff is realy hard to work with -- it cuts as hard as western misquite -- think they're related from the way they work. As for burning them in a stove, we had a neighbour who heated his house with bo dark -- turned his roof orange afound the chimney! Also burned out the coal rated grates in his furnace every 5 years -- the stuff burns HOT!! NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: felting Date: 03 Aug 1999 19:41:58 -0600 Question, when did fur felt hats first come about and who started it? When was wool added? How was the old process done? by hand, any machinery used? Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SPICES available in North America. Date: 03 Aug 1999 19:32:16 -0700 On Tue, 03 August 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > This sure gives us a good source, with foods, etc., plus articles, tapes and such from good documentation. We all need to thank these people for adding to our needs from time to time. Thanks Clark & Sons, Goose Bay,(suppliers) Mark Baker, John Curry, Bill Gorbey and Brook Elliott (articles and columns) for the support. > > See you down the trail. > Turtle. Turtle are you getting a cut from C&S, only kidding. Mark told me a while back at one of the eastern events he was getting his supplies and field testing some stuff for C&S, so was John Curry. Mark also mentioned that the foods in the last video #4 Buck furnished, and in the credits of Wes and Jeff's second video it shows Clark & Sons Mercantile as their food source. The old buck is getting around, bad back and all, folks that's really nice of these guys mentioned for the service they're providing to us the re-enacters, sure saves us time doing research, when all we have to do is pickup a magazine these guys write in. Turtle like you said, "thanks a bunch for your efforts guys". ___________________________________ Take care, folks D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + "One who favors the finer things in life" ___________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: felting Date: 04 Aug 1999 00:32:05 EDT Joe, Felting has been arond for centuries. Chaucer refers to the "Flemish beaver hat" as early as 1386. Tradition has it that St. Clement, fourth Bishop of Rome, invented felt by putting woold between his feet and sandals for added comfort. The combined force of warmth and moisture (read sweat) coupled with the pressure of his body weight as he walked transfomred the wool into a new material. There's an article in the January 1999 issue of MuzzleBlasts, the NMLRA magazine, called "From Pelt to Felt" which I humbly direct you to for more info and references. If you don't have access to that issue, I'd be happy to mail or fax a copy of the article. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-456 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huber Subject: Re: MtMan-List: White Women in the West (was: Women at Date: 03 Aug 1999 22:07:16 -0700 Angela, You are a God-send to this site. Heavy on the information and light on the chat. We could all well to stand by your example. "Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber At 09:12 AM 8/2/99 -0600, Angela Gottfred wrote: >"Kurt Westenbarger" wrote: >>>Just to clear up the white women in the west story a little: Narcissa >Whitman and >Eliza Spaulding traveled west together with their missionary husbands in 1836<<. > >Here are some other white women involved in the fur trade, when they were >out west, & where (gleaned from Sylvia Van Kirk's _Many Tender Ties_; I've >left out all the white settlers in Red River/Winnipeg): > >Marie-Anne Lajimoniere nee Gaboury > 1806-1850's until 1812, just about anywhere >in Manitoba & Saskatchewan! After 1812(?), Red River area >Jane Barnes 1813-1815? Ft. George >(Astoria) >Eliza Tod nee Waugh 1835?-1838? Bas de la >Riviere, then Oxford House (she had a nervous breakdown & had to go back east) >Catherine McTavish nee Turner 1830-? Moose Factory >Mary Ross nee McBeath 1813-1838? Red R., Norway House >Christy McVicar nee McBeath 1813-early 1830's Ft. Chipewyan, Red River >Jane Beaver (wife of Rev. Beaver) 1836-1838 Ft. Vancouver >Narcissa Whitman 1836-1847 Ft. >Vancouver, Walla Walla > >The last two items make me really wonder--did Jane Beaver and Narcissa >Whitman meet at Fort Vancouver? Does anyone know? > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: TVM Pistol Date: 03 Aug 1999 23:23:56 -0600 Hello the list, Just wanted to let you guys know about a great pistol (and also to keep Larry, Lanny, and Dennis from starting something....). I ordered a Tennessee flinter pistol in .54 from TVM (Jack Garner), and just got back in from sighting it in. Gun shoots and looks good. It's styled very much like the one on the old AMM logo. Mine is a 10" barrel. It hit good at 25 yards after filing down the front sight and adding a little windage. If you're in the market for a pistol of this nature, take a look at TVM. Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Shootin' Bags Date: 03 Aug 1999 23:23:59 -0600 Hello the List, I'm always interested in what other folks are using for equipment, so here's a question for those who'll answer. What's in your shootin' bag? Also details of the bag, if you want to add it in. My bag is black cowskin, about 8" wide by 7" deep with a 2" gusset. It has kind of a beaver tail flap that is secured by a button. I made it, and it's sewn with linen thread. Inside the bag is: bag with about 25 .520 balls. small tin with patches small tin with grease firestarting kit in oiled cloth bag vent pick and brush antler powder measure (60 grains) .520 bullet mold small lead ladle bar of lead flint wallet folding knife strip of rolled pillow ticking ram rod puller/screwdriver cleaning kit rolled in leather "wallet" containing: tow, tow worm, ball puller, cleaning jag, flint knapping tool. Looking forward to the responses. Thanks ahead for the ideas YMOS, Allen Hall, from Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Pistol Date: 04 Aug 1999 02:34:22 EDT Allen, et al: I have found the same as you... TVM (Jack Garner) makes a fine product. I have both the Kentucky Pistol and Southern Poor Boy Rifle in .54, and the rifle took 1st in a trail walk the first time out. Pistol needed a bit of sighting but is VERY accurate at 25 yds. I would highly recommend all of Jacks products. My shooting bag is a double pocketed elk hide about 9 x 10, with a red wool heart inset in the flap. Its contents vary with the gun(s) I'm carrying. For my TVM Rifle / Pistol I carry about 30 balls in .530, tin can full of .010 patches soaked in Moose Milk and a small corked tin bottle of Moose Milk for lubing and swabbing, along with a set of flinters tools, ram rod attachments and small flints pouch. The strap holds my patch knife, powder measure and ball starter. Barney Fife "GIVE a man a fish and he'll eat for a day; TEACH a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer for the rest of his life." Book of Fish 24:7 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shootin' Bags Date: 04 Aug 1999 04:25:35 -0400 (EDT) My shooting bag is made from a dark brown 13" wide snapping turtle shell. I have lined it with red flannel and put a large pocket in it. The strap is a braided leather that comes off quickly since I like to wear the bag on my belt. Inside is my flint & steel can, mag.glass, and my rifle tools. Thats it, when I am in the woods I will put my patches/tickling, small tin of ball lube, an old pocket knife and cleaning cloth and thats about it. I keep my round balls in a small pouch on the belt which also has my powder measurer in it. I know the shell is not to authentic but it has two big pros over the badger bag I use to use. One, it's waterproof and two I don't have to worry about ripping it I can pack it full. At 11:23 PM 8/3/99 -0600, you wrote: >Hello the List, > >I'm always interested in what other folks are using for equipment, so here's >a question for those who'll answer. > >What's in your shootin' bag? Also details of the bag, if you want to add it >in. > >My bag is black cowskin, about 8" wide by 7" deep with a 2" gusset. It has >kind of a beaver tail flap that is secured by a button. I made it, and it's >sewn with linen thread. > >Inside the bag is: > >bag with about 25 .520 balls. small tin with patches >small tin with grease firestarting kit in oiled cloth bag >vent pick and brush antler powder measure (60 grains) >.520 bullet mold small lead ladle >bar of lead flint wallet >folding knife strip of rolled pillow ticking >ram rod puller/screwdriver > >cleaning kit rolled in leather "wallet" containing: tow, tow worm, ball >puller, cleaning jag, flint knapping tool. > >Looking forward to the responses. Thanks ahead for the ideas > >YMOS, > >Allen Hall, from Fort Hall country > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bill of Lading Date: 04 Aug 1999 08:55:35 -0600 Lee Newbill writes: >the canoe lists a "macaron of High Wines" >What, may I ask, is a macaron? Here's the entry for maccaron from _A Dictionary of Canadianisms on Historical Principles_, by the Lexicographal Centre for Canadian English (Gage Educational Publishing, 1991): "These provisions were put in two gallon kegs, four of which were laced together and called a maccaron." (citing The Beaver magazine, vol. 9, April 1922, p. 1) The word maccaron was used in the fur trade as early as 1797, and (apparently) as late as 1929. Thanks for the correction to the web address for the canoe site, Lee. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bvannoy Subject: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 13:35:09 -0500 Allen, I carry the usual stuff in a large oiltan double pouch with a few additions. A pair of handforged pliers ( good for pulling thorns to holding balls to trim sprues), a handforged screwdriver, a horn funnel, and a hide glue stick for repairs. In my bad's divider I've sewn loops for my tools and such. Much easier to find in the dark and beats digging at the bottom of my bag. No telling what resides down there! Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 12:15:02 -0700 On Wed, 04 August 1999, bvannoy wrote: > > Allen, > > I carry the usual stuff in a large oiltan double pouch with a few > additions. A pair of handforged pliers ( good for pulling thorns to > holding balls to trim sprues), a handforged screwdriver, a horn funnel, > and a hide glue stick for repairs. In my bad's divider I've sewn loops > for my tools and such. Much easier to find in the dark and beats > digging at the bottom of my bag. No telling what resides down > there! > Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy This is part of an article that will appear in T&LR in the near future. I now have a small bag copied from one a hunter from Pottstown PA carried as part of his profession for a 28 years career from 1787 to 1815. For contents, I found his wares to be very interesting, knowing it belonged and was designed by one that worked with it every day as a tool of his trade. Lets start with the small tin containers; 1-3/4 X 4-1/2 X 1-1/4 inches, hinged on the end with a simple pressurer clip to keep the lid secured. Inside - container #1: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items from making noise, (1) combination screwdriver-knapper, (1) vent pick-handforged, (1) iron ball jag, (1) tow worm, (1) handforged small nail used to insert in small hole in ramrod if rod became stuck, (1) small folding pocket knife, (2) flicker feathers used to plug vent hole in bad weather, (1) small brass bell with leather thong-apparently this hunter had a dog for his companion. Oh, almost forgot (1) small round tin container apprx. 7/8 dia. X 3/4 inches deep-used for patch lube and lip baum. Inside - container #2: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items from making noise, (6) small handforged fishing hooks with tappered end, (4) small [.29 cal.] round balls-weights, (2) corncob floats, (2) 6 foot pieces of linen thread, (4) horsehair leaders, (1) small round tin 3/4 X 3/4 inches-bees wax, (2) handmade sewing needles, (3) thin leather thongs, and (2) iron blanket pins 1-1/2 inches in dia. Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow ticking-.012 thickness, small handmade bottle of cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with small turn screw and vent pick, brained deer hide ball bag-20 /.435 round balls. On the back of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 inch overall length butcher knife. Contents in front pocket: (1) 3 hole bullet board with thong attached to an adjustable powder measurer, (1) small oval tin 3 X 4 X 3/4 inches with 3-1/2 X 1 inch striker, (3) flint flakes, tow, tin of char, and (6) sulfer matches, container again lined with brained deer hide. (1) small handforged single jaw trap [muskrat], wooden cased compass 2 X 2 X 7/8 inches, (3) bees wax candles wrapped in linen cloth, (1) small wooden salt barrel 3/4 X 2 inches, and (1) 2 piece turkey wing bone call. This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 to 1815 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are used, every item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. Note things like bullet molds, ladels, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are items cached or left at his residents in the settlements. Something we found interesting in his journal was the mention of not using tobacco, feeling that the odor from such activity would hamper his ability to get close to game. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 12:24:06 -0700 Buck, Fascinating !!!! What were the dimensions of the bag? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:15 PM > On Wed, 04 August 1999, bvannoy wrote: > > > > > Allen, > > > > I carry the usual stuff in a large oiltan double pouch with a few > > additions. A pair of handforged pliers ( good for pulling thorns to > > holding balls to trim sprues), a handforged screwdriver, a horn funnel, > > and a hide glue stick for repairs. In my bad's divider I've sewn loops > > for my tools and such. Much easier to find in the dark and beats > > digging at the bottom of my bag. No telling what resides down > > there! > > Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy > ---------------------------------------- > This is part of an article that will appear in T&LR in the near future. > ---------------------------------------- > I now have a small bag copied from one a hunter from Pottstown PA carried as part of his profession for a 28 years career from 1787 to 1815. > > For contents, I found his wares to be very interesting, knowing it belonged and was designed by one that worked with it every day as a tool of his trade. > > Lets start with the small tin containers; 1-3/4 X 4-1/2 X 1-1/4 inches, hinged on the end with a simple pressurer clip to keep the lid secured. > > Inside - container #1: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items > from making noise, (1) combination screwdriver-knapper, (1) vent pick-handforged, (1) iron ball jag, (1) tow worm, (1) handforged small nail used to insert in small hole in ramrod if rod became stuck, (1) small folding pocket knife, (2) flicker feathers used to plug vent hole in bad weather, (1) small brass bell with leather thong-apparently this hunter had a dog for his companion. Oh, almost forgot (1) small round tin container apprx. 7/8 dia. X 3/4 inches deep-used for patch lube and lip baum. > > Inside - container #2: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items from making noise, (6) small handforged fishing hooks with tappered end, > (4) small [.29 cal.] round balls-weights, (2) corncob floats, (2) 6 foot pieces of linen thread, (4) horsehair leaders, (1) small round tin 3/4 X 3/4 inches-bees wax, (2) handmade sewing needles, (3) thin leather thongs, and (2) iron blanket pins 1-1/2 inches in dia. > > Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow ticking-.012 thickness, small handmade bottle of cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with small > turn screw and vent pick, brained deer hide ball bag-20 /.435 round balls. > > On the back of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 inch overall length butcher knife. > > Contents in front pocket: (1) 3 hole bullet board with thong attached to an adjustable powder measurer, (1) small oval tin 3 X 4 X 3/4 inches with 3-1/2 X 1 inch striker, (3) flint flakes, tow, tin of char, and (6) sulfer matches, container again lined with brained deer hide. (1) small handforged single jaw trap [muskrat], wooden cased compass 2 X 2 X 7/8 > inches, (3) bees wax candles wrapped in linen cloth, > (1) small wooden salt barrel 3/4 X 2 inches, and (1) 2 piece turkey wing bone call. > > This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 to > 1815 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are used, every item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. > > Note things like bullet molds, ladels, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are items cached or left at his residents in the settlements. > > Something we found interesting in his journal was the mention of not using tobacco, feeling that the odor from such activity would hamper his ability to get close to game. > ----------------------------------- > > Later, > Buck Conner > dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > _____________________________________ > NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade > and early history of the times. AMM journal > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * > Conklin, MI 49403 > ATTN: Jon Link > > The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - > quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. > _____________________________________ > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 12:36:39 -0700 On Wed, 04 August 1999, "john c. funk,jr" wrote: > > Buck, > > Fascinating !!!! What were the dimensions of the bag? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:15 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag > > > > On Wed, 04 August 1999, bvannoy wrote: > > > > > > > > Allen, > > > > > > I carry the usual stuff in a large oiltan double pouch with a few > > > additions. A pair of handforged pliers ( good for pulling thorns to > > > holding balls to trim sprues), a handforged screwdriver, a horn funnel, > > > and a hide glue stick for repairs. In my bad's divider I've sewn loops > > > for my tools and such. Much easier to find in the dark and beats > > > digging at the bottom of my bag. No telling what resides down > > > there! > > > Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy > > ---------------------------------------- > > This is part of an article that will appear in T&LR in the near future. > > ---------------------------------------- > > I now have a small bag copied from one a hunter from Pottstown PA carried > as part of his profession for a 28 years career from 1787 to 1815. > > > > For contents, I found his wares to be very interesting, knowing it > belonged and was designed by one that worked with it every day as a tool of > his trade. > > > > Lets start with the small tin containers; 1-3/4 X 4-1/2 X 1-1/4 inches, > hinged on the end with a simple pressurer clip to keep the lid secured. > > > > Inside - container #1: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items > > from making noise, (1) combination screwdriver-knapper, (1) vent > pick-handforged, (1) iron ball jag, (1) tow worm, (1) handforged small nail > used to insert in small hole in ramrod if rod became stuck, (1) small > folding pocket knife, (2) flicker feathers used to plug vent hole in bad > weather, (1) small brass bell with leather thong-apparently this hunter had > a dog for his companion. Oh, almost forgot (1) small round tin container > apprx. 7/8 dia. X 3/4 inches deep-used for patch lube and lip baum. > > > > Inside - container #2: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items > from making noise, (6) small handforged fishing hooks with tappered end, > > (4) small [.29 cal.] round balls-weights, (2) corncob floats, (2) 6 foot > pieces of linen thread, (4) horsehair leaders, (1) small round tin 3/4 X 3/4 > inches-bees wax, (2) handmade sewing needles, (3) thin leather thongs, and > (2) iron blanket pins 1-1/2 inches in dia. > > > > Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow ticking-.012 thickness, small > handmade bottle of cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with small > > turn screw and vent pick, brained deer hide ball bag-20 /.435 round balls. > > > > On the back of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 inch overall > length butcher knife. > > > > Contents in front pocket: (1) 3 hole bullet board with thong attached to > an adjustable powder measurer, (1) small oval tin 3 X 4 X 3/4 inches with > 3-1/2 X 1 inch striker, (3) flint flakes, tow, tin of char, and (6) sulfer > matches, container again lined with brained deer hide. (1) small handforged > single jaw trap [muskrat], wooden cased compass 2 X 2 X 7/8 > > inches, (3) bees wax candles wrapped in linen cloth, > > (1) small wooden salt barrel 3/4 X 2 inches, and (1) 2 piece turkey wing > bone call. > > > > This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 to > > 1815 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are > used, every item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. > > > > Note things like bullet molds, ladels, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are > items cached or left at his residents in the settlements. > > > > Something we found interesting in his journal was the mention of not using > tobacco, feeling that the odor from such activity would hamper his ability > to get close to game. > > ----------------------------------- > > > > Later, > > Buck Conner John, Your going to have me end up putting the whole article on here. His bag small by some folks standards, 8-1/2 X 9 inches made of commerical cow hide, dark brown in color with a wide strap of 1-1/2 inches with a handforged buckle for adjustment of the length and made of tightely woven linen in forest colors, now dull from useage and age. The bag has a 2" gusset with a divider making two compartments (lined with linen material), there are to small leather pockets attached to the back of the bag - used to hold to small tin containers. All seams are welted, even the edge of the flap that is covered with linen on the inside and having a narrow welted slit to make a storage area for patching material. A clever idea that one should consider when building his next pouch, making easy access to your shooting and cleaning material, as well as adding weight to the flap to keep it in place - flap has a tong used to sucure it to the pewter button attached at the bottom of the bag. This will give you a pretty good idea of the appearance and how this bag is set up. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Women in the West Date: 04 Aug 1999 14:47:58 -0500 Actually, Narcissa was not the first white Anerican woman to visit the Rockies. Mary Donoho came down the Santa Fe Trail in 1833, and is considered the first Anglo American woman to do so. Since Santa Fe is technically in the Southern Rockies, she predates the Whitmans by three years. Narcissa may still be the first to attend a Rendezvous, but not the first to visit the Rockies. A recent biography called _Mary Donoho: First Lady of the Santa Fe Trail_ or something to that effect, sheds new light on Anglo women in the west. I wish I could remember the author. Cheers, HBC >Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:17:11 -0700 >From: "Kurt Westenbarger" >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous > >Just to clear up the white women in the west story a little: Narcissa >Whitman and >Eliza Spaulding traveled west together with their missionary husbands in 1836. >The Spauldings established thier mission at Lapwai and the Whitmans at Walla >Walla. These are the earliest white women in the rocky mountain west that >I've >come upon. >Kurt > **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SPICES available in North America. Date: 04 Aug 1999 12:47:56 -0700 > On Tue, 03 August 1999, concho@uswestmail.net wrote: > > On Tue, 03 August 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > This sure gives us a good source, with foods, etc., plus articles, tapes and such from good documentation. We all need to thank these people for adding to our needs from time to time. Thanks Clark & Sons, Goose Bay,(suppliers) Mark Baker, John Curry, Bill Gorbey and Brook Elliott (articles and columns) for the support. > > > > See you down the trail. > > Turtle. > ------------------------------------------ > Turtle are you getting a cut from C&S, only kidding. Mark told me a while back at one of the eastern events he was getting his supplies and field testing some stuff for C&S, so was John Curry. Mark also mentioned that the foods in the last video #4 Buck furnished, and in the credits of Wes and Jeff's second video it shows Clark & Sons Mercantile as their food source. > > The old buck is getting around, bad back and all, folks that's really nice of these guys mentioned for the service they're providing to us the re-enacters, sure saves us time doing research, when all we have to do is pickup a magazine these guys write in. > > Turtle like you said, "thanks a bunch for your efforts guys". > ___________________________________ Hey guys thanks for all the kind remarks, sent a copy to Baker, Curry, Gorby, Elloitt and Gobel - know they will thank you also. John Curry told me he wondered if anyone ever read or listen to what they write, or where they just another "middle of the road group" for writers. "It's nice to know that one's efforts where not spent in vain." Thomas Jefferson 1811. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: MtMan-List: Shooting Bab Date: 04 Aug 1999 12:50:13 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BEDE77.E4C765A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Buck, Many thanks. Very informative article. Time to make some changes. John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BEDE77.E4C765A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Buck,
Many thanks.  Very informative article.  Time to = make some=20 changes.
John Funk
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BEDE77.E4C765A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Women in the West Date: 04 Aug 1999 16:18:14 -0600 Reply to: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Women in the West Mary Donoho - New First Lady of the Santa Fe Trail written by Marian = Meyer with a forward by Marc Simmons. Ancient City Press Santa Fe, = NM One really good book,. especially for the women and tears up some of the = widely held beliefs that have turned out to be erronious. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Henry B. Crawford wrote: > > >Actually, Narcissa was not the first white Anerican woman to visit the >Rockies. Mary Donoho came down the Santa Fe Trail in 1833, and is >considered the first Anglo American woman to do so. Since Santa Fe is >technically in the Southern Rockies, she predates the Whitmans by three >years. Narcissa may still be the first to attend a Rendezvous, but not = the >first to visit the Rockies. > >A recent biography called _Mary Donoho: First Lady of the Santa Fe Trail_ >or something to that effect, sheds new light on Anglo women in the west. = I >wish I could remember the author. > >Cheers, >HBC > > >>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:17:11 -0700 >>From: "Kurt Westenbarger" >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous >> >>Just to clear up the white women in the west story a little: Narcissa >>Whitman and >>Eliza Spaulding traveled west together with their missionary husbands in = 1836. >>The Spauldings established thier mission at Lapwai and the Whitmans at = Walla >>Walla. These are the earliest white women in the rocky mountain west = that >>I've >>come upon. >>Kurt >> > >**************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 >Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 >806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** > > > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A8FD636008C; Wed, 04 Aug 1999 13:48:13 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 11C71A-0003U8-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:48:04 -0600 > Received: from [129.118.1.21] (helo=3DTTACS2.ACS.TTU.EDU) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 11C717-0003Tg-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:48:01 -0600 > Received: from [129.118.47.140] by TTACS.TTU.EDU (PMDF V5.2-31 #32556) > with ESMTP id <01JEDG7BDHCA91WTE5@TTACS.TTU.EDU> for > hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:48:07 CST > Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 14:47:58 -0500 > From: "Henry B. Crawford" > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Women in the West > In-reply-to: > X-Sender: mxhbc@pop.ttu.edu > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Message-id: > MIME-version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1217 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 16:18:11 -0600 Reply to: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag Hide glue stick? How did you make that and how do you use it? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants bvannoy wrote: >Allen, > > I carry the usual stuff in a large oiltan double pouch with a few >additions. A pair of handforged pliers ( good for pulling thorns to >holding balls to trim sprues), a handforged screwdriver, a horn funnel, >and a hide glue stick for repairs. In my bad's divider I've sewn loops >for my tools and such. Much easier to find in the dark and beats >digging at the bottom of my bag. No telling what resides down >there! > Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id AA198C600B4; Wed, 04 Aug 1999 12:44:41 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 11C61Y-000142-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:44:24 -0600 > Received: from [208.159.126.149] (helo=3Dpm13sm.pmm.mci.net) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 11C61V-00013k-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:44:21 -0600 > Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mail-relay.mciworld.com > (PMDF V5.2-32 #38415) id <0FFY00501EO9I4@mail-relay.mciworld.com> for > hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:43:21 +0000 (GMT) > Received: from mciworld.com ([153.36.201.241]) by mail-relay.mciworld.= com > (PMDF V5.2-32 #38415) with ESMTP id <0FFY000PTEO4B7@mail-relay.mciworld.= com> > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:43:19 +0000 (GMT) > Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 13:35:09 -0500 > From: bvannoy > Subject: MtMan-List: shooting bag > To: MtMan-List > Message-id: <37A887DD.512002D1@mciworld.com> > MIME-version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-CCK-MCD {MCIWORLDV2} (Win95; U) > Content-type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > X-Accept-Language: en > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1213 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Wood Date: 04 Aug 1999 18:27:57 -0400 I want to thank all the great responses I received on the board. You guys are a wealth of knowledge and materials. I will be contacting a few of you wonderful people to see about the wood. What I am looking for is 4"X 1/2" X4 feet, split if possible. I know Osage Orange is VERY hard, but it is the correct wood for these Period Pieces I want to do for myself. Also need smaller pieces for smaller cradle boards. So thanks again, You wonderful lovely, grizzly, faced nicked, contrary gentleman. Linda Holley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 04 Aug 1999 20:28:32 -0500 Larry Pendleton, film star!! Larry, I just got the wonderful tape and don't know what else to say. Clear, well done, and way too short. Eating popcorn and talking sign don't mix :). Great job, and all you guys, he did it RIGHT. When is the Sequel, Sign II coming out?? Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 21:14:17 -0700 Guys, This discussion on shooting bags is great ! My gear inside the bag hasn't changed much in the last few years, but I seem to build a new bag every years or so. The bag I am currently using is made of braintan deeskin, which was not broken quite as well as it should have been. It is still quite soft but has more body to it than braintan that is done really well. The bag is a simple single pouch with no gusset, but it is sewn with a welt. It measures 8 1/2 X 9 inches. The flap is double thickness of the braintan with a button to hold it closed. It has a single small pocket which carries a cleaning jag, an extra flint, a few patches, and a small oak twig that is whittled to fit as a plug for the touch hole which is used when I wash the bore of my rifle. In the main part of the bag there is a small bag that holds about ten round balls. I carry a separate bullet pouch for the bulk of my amunition. It either hangs from a separate strap or from my belt. I find I can load faster with this arrangement. The rest of the gear includes : forged pliers, forged screwdriver-flint knapper, fire steel, flint, bag of tow, bag of extra gun flints, deerskin wallet that holds extra jags a tow worm and ball puller, folding knife, rolls of ticking strips used for patching, a can of grease used for lubing patches and the bore of my rifle, and a small brass tube that contains bear oil for oiling the lock. My powder measure hangs from the neck of my powder horn, and the vent pick is carried in the patchbox. My patch knife is attached to the back of the bag. I carry the bullet mold, ladle, and lead in my haversack. Where to carry these items has always been somewhat of a dilema. It seems the bullet mold was most often carried in the shooting bag, but it is of no use without the ladle and lead and that is more weight than I want to carry in the shooting bag. What to do ? This how I carry my stuff, and it works pretty well for me. How one uses a shooting bag and other accoutrements is a very individual thing. What works for one person may or may not work for the next. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >On Wed, 04 August 1999, "john c. funk,jr" wrote: > >> >> Buck, >> >> Fascinating !!!! What were the dimensions of the bag? >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:15 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag >> >> >> > On Wed, 04 August 1999, bvannoy wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > Allen, >> > > >> > > I carry the usual stuff in a large oiltan double pouch with a few >> > > additions. A pair of handforged pliers ( good for pulling thorns to >> > > holding balls to trim sprues), a handforged screwdriver, a horn funnel, >> > > and a hide glue stick for repairs. In my bad's divider I've sewn loops >> > > for my tools and such. Much easier to find in the dark and beats >> > > digging at the bottom of my bag. No telling what resides down >> > > there! >> > > Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy >> > ---------------------------------------- >> > This is part of an article that will appear in T&LR in the near future. >> > ---------------------------------------- >> > I now have a small bag copied from one a hunter from Pottstown PA carried >> as part of his profession for a 28 years career from 1787 to 1815. >> > >> > For contents, I found his wares to be very interesting, knowing it >> belonged and was designed by one that worked with it every day as a tool of >> his trade. >> > >> > Lets start with the small tin containers; 1-3/4 X 4-1/2 X 1-1/4 inches, >> hinged on the end with a simple pressurer clip to keep the lid secured. >> > >> > Inside - container #1: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items >> > from making noise, (1) combination screwdriver-knapper, (1) vent >> pick-handforged, (1) iron ball jag, (1) tow worm, (1) handforged small nail >> used to insert in small hole in ramrod if rod became stuck, (1) small >> folding pocket knife, (2) flicker feathers used to plug vent hole in bad >> weather, (1) small brass bell with leather thong-apparently this hunter had >> a dog for his companion. Oh, almost forgot (1) small round tin container >> apprx. 7/8 dia. X 3/4 inches deep-used for patch lube and lip baum. >> > >> > Inside - container #2: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items >> from making noise, (6) small handforged fishing hooks with tappered end, >> > (4) small [.29 cal.] round balls-weights, (2) corncob floats, (2) 6 foot >> pieces of linen thread, (4) horsehair leaders, (1) small round tin 3/4 X 3/4 >> inches-bees wax, (2) handmade sewing needles, (3) thin leather thongs, and >> (2) iron blanket pins 1-1/2 inches in dia. >> > >> > Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow ticking-.012 thickness, small >> handmade bottle of cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with small >> > turn screw and vent pick, brained deer hide ball bag-20 /.435 round balls. >> > >> > On the back of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 inch overall >> length butcher knife. >> > >> > Contents in front pocket: (1) 3 hole bullet board with thong attached to >> an adjustable powder measurer, (1) small oval tin 3 X 4 X 3/4 inches with >> 3-1/2 X 1 inch striker, (3) flint flakes, tow, tin of char, and (6) sulfer >> matches, container again lined with brained deer hide. (1) small handforged >> single jaw trap [muskrat], wooden cased compass 2 X 2 X 7/8 >> > inches, (3) bees wax candles wrapped in linen cloth, >> > (1) small wooden salt barrel 3/4 X 2 inches, and (1) 2 piece turkey wing >> bone call. >> > >> > This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 to >> > 1815 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are >> used, every item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. >> > >> > Note things like bullet molds, ladels, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are >> items cached or left at his residents in the settlements. >> > >> > Something we found interesting in his journal was the mention of not using >> tobacco, feeling that the odor from such activity would hamper his ability >> to get close to game. >> > ----------------------------------- >> > >> > Later, >> > Buck Conner >----------------------------------- >John, >Your going to have me end up putting the whole article on here. > >His bag small by some folks standards, 8-1/2 X 9 inches made of >commerical cow hide, dark brown in color with a wide strap of 1-1/2 >inches with a handforged buckle for adjustment of the length and made of >tightely woven linen in forest colors, now dull from useage and age. The >bag has a 2" gusset with a divider making two compartments (lined with >linen material), there are to small leather pockets attached to the back >of the bag - used to hold to small tin containers. > >All seams are welted, even the edge of the flap that is covered with >linen on the inside and having a narrow welted slit to make a storage >area for patching material. A clever idea that one should consider when >building his next pouch, making easy access to your shooting and >cleaning material, as well as adding weight to the flap to keep it in >place - flap has a tong used to sucure it to the pewter button attached >at the bottom of the bag. This will give you a pretty good idea of the >appearance and how this bag is set up. >----------------------------------- > > >Later, >Buck Conner >dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ >_____________________________________ >NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade >and early history of the times. AMM journal > >The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * >Conklin, MI 49403 >ATTN: Jon Link > >The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - >quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. >_____________________________________ > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 04 Aug 1999 21:17:03 -0700 Mike at this point I don't know. Thanks for the kind words. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Larry Pendleton, film star!! >Larry, I just got the wonderful tape and don't know what else to say. >Clear, well done, and way too short. Eating popcorn and talking sign >don't mix :). Great job, and all you guys, he did it RIGHT. When is >the Sequel, Sign II coming out?? > >Rock > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Women in the West Date: 04 Aug 1999 22:31:29 EDT Henry--- two things: 1. Great photo of you last weekiend on front page of Rocky Mtn News at Bent's. 2. Mary Donoho, New first Lady of the Santa Fe Treail, by Marian Meyer, Forward by Marc Simmons, Ancient city Press, Santa Fe, NM, 1991. Regards, Pat Surrena, #1449 Jim Baker Party, Colorado ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shootin' Bags Date: 04 Aug 1999 20:25:09 -0700 Hi Allen, I prefer a belt bag. Mine is a Moose hide bag measuring roughly 7" x 7". There is a large silver concho on the flap, which a thong from the base of the bag wraps around for secure closure. I tend to load it lightly, carrying the rest of my truck in my pack. I carry a flint wallet which contains spare flints, tow worm, ball screw, and a multi functional tool made by Dave Conte of Ca.. This tool is made from a file. It has a hole in it for use as a rod puller. It is a screw driver, short starter, flint striker/knapper and makes a handy tack hammer as well. I carry a roll of greased ticking for patch material. I carry a small french folding knife, as seen in Russels book. The knife is attached via a thong. My vent pick and pan brush is attached via a small linked chain. I carry a small quantity of balls in a small leather pouch. I also carry a 6 holed loading block made from a piece of oak, just big enough for this. I have a small metal tin for grease. There is also a brass adjustable powder measure attached by a thong. depending one wether I am carrying one of my 'smoothies' or my rifle, contents may vary. I have a small wad dispenser and small bag of swan shot, if carrying a smooth bore. I may also carry my fire tin, compass, spy glass, etc.. depending on the activity. On treks I found that too many shoulder straps were a nuisance, hence my preference for a belt bag. If need be, I can run better with a belt bag, also. As for my 'pack'... I have recently been carrying a set of saddle bags with detachable pommel bags. I coppied a set of bags that 'Short Step' has. I find that the 4 seperate bags, 2 big- 2 small, are good for keeping my gear organized. I carry them over my shoulder. If any one should ask... those *%#@!~+!!!! Crows stole my horse, and left me afoot. My ladle, lead, spare stuff, bullet mold, etc... are stashed in the saddle bags, depending on what is expected. I appreciate your question. It has generated some good responses, which I find educational. YMHS, Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Macaron Date: 04 Aug 1999 23:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Lee Newbill wrote: the canoe lists a "macaron of High Wines" What, may I ask, is a macaron? Lee, Lanney: macaron or macaronic means "a mixture" like a mixture of languages. It is derived from the Italian "maccarone" from where the term macaroni comes from [per Random House College Dictionary, 1975 ed.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: N Central Idaho Rendezvous 7-8 Aug Date: 04 Aug 1999 21:11:55 -0700 (PDT) High Country Muzzleloaders, Inc. Annual Rendezvous When: Aug 7-8 Where: SW of Grangeville, Idaho Details: Details: Trail walk, Pistol trail walk, Hawk and knife. Paper shoot, Jackpot shoot, reentry, Seneca Run, Peewee events. Bring water, shovel, ax, bucket. Fees: Singles $10, Family $15, Traders $20 value blanket prize. Non-particpants camp fee $5. More Info? Contact Kevin Asker at 208-983-0583 or Del Houger at 208-983-1932 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: maccaron Date: 05 Aug 1999 00:22:26 -0400 (EDT) thanks Angela for the excellent research and correct definition! lee, lanney - I apologize for posting up incorrect information (blooper). buck - without TJ purchasng that Louisiana Territory there probably would have been no American fur trade - was 100 years ahead of his time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ian Small" Subject: MtMan-List: Books Date: 05 Aug 1999 07:05:20 GMT Hello, I am a new member to the list and a very new student to Mountain Man History. My name is Ian Small and I was wondering if those of you on the list could suggest some good books on the subject for me. Thank you very much. Ian Small "From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put."-Winston Churchill _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Books Date: 05 Aug 1999 06:35:26 -0500 Hello Ian, I would recommend reading: Life in the Far West by Ruxton and Wah To Yah and the Taos Trail by Lewis Garrard for starters. Either of these books should be easy to find. If you would like read them I have multiple copies of both. I am sure other list members will have many suggestions. Good Luck, Tony Clark -----Original Message----- >Hello, > >I am a new member to the list and a very new student to Mountain Man >History. My name is Ian Small and I was wondering if those of you on the >list could suggest some good books on the subject for me. Thank you very >much. > >Ian Small > >"From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is >something up with which I will not put."-Winston Churchill > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Storing salt and spices Date: 05 Aug 1999 07:23:02 -0600 Here are some spices & other foodstuffs which were available to David Thompson when he placed his order for supplies for the North West Company's Columbia Department for 1807 & 1808 (from Dempsey, _Rocky Mountain House_, 37-41). To give an idea of the amounts available, I've noted the units he was ordering in : Chocolate (for partners & clerks), coffee (for partners & clerks), cinnamon (lbs.), cloves (lbs.), flour (bags), lemon essence (bottles), nutmegs (dozens), pepper (lbs.), Hyson tea (lbs., for partners & clerks), vinegar (gallons), high wines, Madeira wine (kegs). Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 05 Aug 1999 06:41:48 -0700 Larry, The bag Buck mentioned (the original of William Potts), I got to copy and have used for about 12 years now. I guess Buck was right in copying one that was used as a daily tool for the man's livelyhood. For years I carried a number of extra items, then it was suggested to make a list on a 10 day canoe trip of everything I used - anything that was not listed was left at home from then on, funny after a few years I traded much of that stuff off. In this hobby it seems we get into gathering gadgets, and neat items, then half of them just sit around. When Buckhorn Rendezvous was still operating, they would have a garage sale once a year of new items, Buck said they where things that him and Ben thought where great, but turned out they where the only ones that thought so. They would have tables full of stuff from local buckskinners that decided they no longer needed items once carried in their haversacks or shooting bags. We all need to do as I was told, "make a list of what you use, and how often, then can one item be used for several jobs - if so leave the dupliate at home". Turtle. > On Wed, 04 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > Guys, > This discussion on shooting bags is great ! My gear inside the bag hasn't > changed much in the last few years, but I seem to build a new bag every > years or so. The bag I am currently using is made of braintan deeskin, > which was not broken quite as well as it should have been. It is still > quite soft but has more body to it than braintan that is done really well. > The bag is a simple single pouch with no gusset, but it is sewn with a welt. > It measures 8 1/2 X 9 inches. The flap is double thickness of the braintan > with a button to hold it closed. It has a single small pocket which carries > a cleaning jag, an extra flint, a few patches, and a small oak twig that is > whittled to fit as a plug for the touch hole which is used when I wash the > bore of my rifle. In the main part of the bag there is a small bag that > holds about ten round balls. I carry a separate bullet pouch for the bulk > of my amunition. It either hangs from a separate strap or from my belt. I > find I can load faster with this arrangement. The rest of the gear includes > : forged pliers, forged screwdriver-flint knapper, fire steel, flint, bag of > tow, bag of extra gun flints, deerskin wallet that holds extra jags a tow > worm and ball puller, folding knife, rolls of ticking strips used for > patching, a can of grease used for lubing patches and the bore of my rifle, > and a small brass tube that contains bear oil for oiling the lock. My > powder measure hangs from the neck of my powder horn, and the vent pick is > carried in the patchbox. My patch knife is attached to the back of the > bag. > I carry the bullet mold, ladle, and lead in my haversack. Where to carry > these items has always been somewhat of a dilema. It seems the bullet mold > was most often carried in the shooting bag, but it is of no use without the > ladle and lead and that is more weight than I want to carry in the shooting > bag. What to do ? > This how I carry my stuff, and it works pretty well for me. How one uses > a shooting bag and other accoutrements is a very individual thing. What > works for one person may or may not work for the next. > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:37 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag > > > >On Wed, 04 August 1999, "john c. funk,jr" wrote: > > > >> > >> Buck, > >> > >> Fascinating !!!! What were the dimensions of the bag? > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:15 PM > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, 04 August 1999, bvannoy wrote: > >> > > >> > > > >> > > Allen, > >> > > > >> > > I carry the usual stuff in a large oiltan double pouch with a few > >> > > additions. A pair of handforged pliers ( good for pulling thorns to > >> > > holding balls to trim sprues), a handforged screwdriver, a horn > funnel, > >> > > and a hide glue stick for repairs. In my bad's divider I've sewn > loops > >> > > for my tools and such. Much easier to find in the dark and beats > >> > > digging at the bottom of my bag. No telling what resides down > >> > > there! > >> > > Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy > >> > ---------------------------------------- > >> > This is part of an article that will appear in T&LR in the near future. > >> > ---------------------------------------- > >> > I now have a small bag copied from one a hunter from Pottstown PA > carried > >> as part of his profession for a 28 years career from 1787 to 1815. > >> > > >> > For contents, I found his wares to be very interesting, knowing it > >> belonged and was designed by one that worked with it every day as a tool > of > >> his trade. > >> > > >> > Lets start with the small tin containers; 1-3/4 X 4-1/2 X 1-1/4 inches, > >> hinged on the end with a simple pressurer clip to keep the lid secured. > >> > > >> > Inside - container #1: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items > >> > from making noise, (1) combination screwdriver-knapper, (1) vent > >> pick-handforged, (1) iron ball jag, (1) tow worm, (1) handforged small > nail > >> used to insert in small hole in ramrod if rod became stuck, (1) small > >> folding pocket knife, (2) flicker feathers used to plug vent hole in bad > >> weather, (1) small brass bell with leather thong-apparently this hunter > had > >> a dog for his companion. Oh, almost forgot (1) small round tin container > >> apprx. 7/8 dia. X 3/4 inches deep-used for patch lube and lip baum. > >> > > >> > Inside - container #2: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items > >> from making noise, (6) small handforged fishing hooks with tappered end, > >> > (4) small [.29 cal.] round balls-weights, (2) corncob floats, (2) 6 > foot > >> pieces of linen thread, (4) horsehair leaders, (1) small round tin 3/4 X > 3/4 > >> inches-bees wax, (2) handmade sewing needles, (3) thin leather thongs, > and > >> (2) iron blanket pins 1-1/2 inches in dia. > >> > > >> > Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow ticking-.012 thickness, small > >> handmade bottle of cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with small > >> > turn screw and vent pick, brained deer hide ball bag-20 /.435 round > balls. > >> > > >> > On the back of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 inch > overall > >> length butcher knife. > >> > > >> > Contents in front pocket: (1) 3 hole bullet board with thong attached > to > >> an adjustable powder measurer, (1) small oval tin 3 X 4 X 3/4 inches with > >> 3-1/2 X 1 inch striker, (3) flint flakes, tow, tin of char, and (6) > sulfer > >> matches, container again lined with brained deer hide. (1) small > handforged > >> single jaw trap [muskrat], wooden cased compass 2 X 2 X 7/8 > >> > inches, (3) bees wax candles wrapped in linen cloth, > >> > (1) small wooden salt barrel 3/4 X 2 inches, and (1) 2 piece turkey > wing > >> bone call. > >> > > >> > This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 to > >> > 1815 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are > >> used, every item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. > >> > > >> > Note things like bullet molds, ladels, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. > are > >> items cached or left at his residents in the settlements. > >> > > >> > Something we found interesting in his journal was the mention of not > using > >> tobacco, feeling that the odor from such activity would hamper his > ability > >> to get close to game. > >> > ----------------------------------- > >> > > >> > Later, > >> > Buck Conner > >----------------------------------- > >John, > >Your going to have me end up putting the whole article on here. > > > >His bag small by some folks standards, 8-1/2 X 9 inches made of > >commerical cow hide, dark brown in color with a wide strap of 1-1/2 > >inches with a handforged buckle for adjustment of the length and made of > >tightely woven linen in forest colors, now dull from useage and age. The > >bag has a 2" gusset with a divider making two compartments (lined with > >linen material), there are to small leather pockets attached to the back > >of the bag - used to hold to small tin containers. > > > >All seams are welted, even the edge of the flap that is covered with > >linen on the inside and having a narrow welted slit to make a storage > >area for patching material. A clever idea that one should consider when > >building his next pouch, making easy access to your shooting and > >cleaning material, as well as adding weight to the flap to keep it in > >place - flap has a tong used to sucure it to the pewter button attached > >at the bottom of the bag. This will give you a pretty good idea of the > >appearance and how this bag is set up. > >----------------------------------- > >Later, > >Buck Conner Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shootin' Bags Date: 04 Aug 1999 15:41:27 -0400 If anyone wants to post a pix of their favorite shootin bag, email ( or snail mail) it to me with a bit of data on it and I will create a special web page on my site so you can show them off... :)) It can be a simple picture, or you can have your possibles laid out with it, etc... Let me know if anyone wants to... It will be accessable only to members of this list. Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 16:05:51 -0400 Last year goin to tha Alafia, I committed a MORTAL SIN!!! Somehow my "halfhimers" caught up with me, and I FORGOT my possibles bag!!! Everyting else made it in tha big metal covered wagon I haul all this stuff with, but my possibles bag got left on the wall..... Bein the resourceful person that I am, I done got me a moccasin grade side of elk and commenced to workin on it. In a couple of hours (I'm slow when I want it done right) I hade a right passable possible bag. It's about 7" by 9", double pocket with 2 smaller pockets sewn inside, and a large over flap. For weight to keep the flap shut, I sewed a pewter Ronnyvous medallion on it. In it is my forged pliers, 50 - .50 cal ball, forged knapper and screw driver, 4 pre-lubed rolls of patching, worm and etc..., flint wallet, a few extra hide thongs, spring clamp, a plaion old rag, a small vial of gun oil, plain dry patches fer swabbin, a small vial of bore cleaner, a patch knife, and hangin on a thong are my pan primer and a vent pick/brush combo. I'm gonna use your idea and sew some loops on the inside to hold the tools instead of letting them just lay in the bottom of the bag... Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 16:19:25 -0400 They would have tables full of stuff from local buckskinners that decided they no longer needed items once carried in their haversacks or shooting bags. We all need to do as I was told, "make a list of what you use, and how often, then can one item be used for several jobs - if so leave the dupliate at home". > Turtle. > That would be a heck of an idea for the list.... Put our "extra stuff" up for sale, trade, whatever... Again, if anyone would like, I'll make a page on my site, accessable by this list only, and you can put a pix and a description with the price and your email address. No charge... just trying to help everyone out... Let me know what you think... Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lewis Kevin Raper" Subject: MtMan-List: Kings Mountain Old Timer Days Date: 05 Aug 1999 10:59:56 -0400 How many on the list are coming up to the shoot at Kings Mountain State Park in South Carolina? As always it will be on the third weekend of September. Iffin ya come, go by The K Company and holler "Possum Hunter". I might even come out of hiding! Although they are not period-correct, it is a good ideer to bring some rubber boots in case some Texicans or New Zealanders show up! Watch yer top knot - Possum Hunter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: extra items for sale Date: 04 Aug 1999 17:08:50 -0400 What I'll do is place any item on the page, a pictue, a description, price, and email of seller. After that, everything is done through the buyer and the seller. I don't want a commission or anything. I maintain my own site, its a freebie on on geocities. Rules will be simple... You deal direct with the seller, and anything will be put up on the page so long as it is within our time period. It can be for sale, trade, barter, whatever. I assume no liability for the transaction or offer any warranty. I am doing this strictly as a service for others and expect no commission, or renumeration of any kind. My intent is to help others get rid of "extra stuff" ... *chuckles* probably so they can buy more. Sounds kinda simple to me... I'll work on the page tonite and post the address for all to see tomorrow... Addison Miller -----Original Message----- > > Mr. Miller: > > I for one think it big hearted of you to offer to set up a sale page >for others to use to sell unwanted items. After 20yrs many of us have many >items to get rid of, early mistakes, incorrect items. Many things could help >other beginners to get started. If you set this up I would like to know >rules and regulations you`ll use, number of items to post and anything else. >I`m interested. I would be willing to send you a percentage of what I sell. >You have to pay to maintain your site, it`s only fair if we use we should >share expenses. > > Thank you for your consideration. > > >John (BIG JOHN) Hunt jhunt1@one.net >Longhunter >Mountainman >southwest Ohio > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: extra items for sale Date: 05 Aug 1999 09:40:10 -0700 > On Wed, 04 August 1999, ad.miller@mindspring.com wrote: > What I'll do is place any item on the page, a pictue, a description, price, > and email of seller. After that, everything is done through the buyer and > the seller. I don't want a commission or anything. I maintain my own site, > its a freebie on on geocities. > > Rules will be simple... You deal direct with the seller, and anything will > be put up on the page so long as it is within our time period. It can be > for sale, trade, barter, whatever. I assume no liability for the > transaction or offer any warranty. I am doing this strictly as a service > for others and expect no commission, or renumeration of any kind. > My intent is to help others get rid of "extra stuff" ... *chuckles* probably > so they can buy more. Sounds kinda simple to me... > > I'll work on the page tonite and post the address for all to see > tomorrow... > > Addison Miller > > > Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 11:33 AM > >You have to pay to maintain your site, it`s only fair if we use we should > >share expenses. > > > > Thank you for your consideration. > >John (BIG JOHN) Hunt jhunt1@one.net ________________________________ Hey "Ad", I'm sure that most would agree a ?? % of the sale for your efforts like John has mentioned would be fair. If they take their sellable items to a dealer they would pay a 20% for items under $500 and 10% for items above - this seems to be standard anymore, of course your using their space and they have overhead. You said your overhead is nothing, but you still have time invested and should get something for your efforts, whatever is fair to you. Even 5% not much when you think of the savings to the seller, when compared to going to a dealer, would help you buy a new toy, and that's the bottom line "we all need our toys". I will look tonight and gather up some items, it's been about two years since doing this. Use to take the funds from our sale table when we still had the store, then donate it to "Children's Hospital" here in Denver. It would surprise you how much stuff you can move, many newcomers need everything and aren't into the reenactment stuff yet. Thank you for the offer. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ian Small" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Books Date: 05 Aug 1999 17:20:25 GMT Tony, Thank you for the suggestions I shall look for those books. I have just returned from the library, I took a list of books that I found on the Mountain Man Web Site unfortunately my search came up unsuccessfully. I did find one book which interested me though, it is called The Death of the Bravos, by John Myers Myers. It seems to have some Mountain Man History in it anyway. Much Thanks. Ian _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: extra items for sale Date: 05 Aug 1999 10:55:02 -0700 > > I am doing this strictly as a service for others and expect no commission, > > or renumeration of any kind. > > > > Addison Miller > > ----------------------- > > >You have to pay to maintain your site, it`s only fair if we use we should > > >share expenses. ----------------------- > Even 5% not much when you think of the savings to the seller, when compared to going to a dealer, would help you buy a new toy, and that's the bottom line "we all need our toys". ---------------------- Hey Addison, Like mentioned take a percentage and you go buy some new goodies, that's fair for your trouble. I'll see what I have laying around no longer used. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bvannoy Subject: MtMan-List: Books Date: 05 Aug 1999 12:51:01 -0500 Hello, list: Since the subject of books has been brought up, I have a question as well. Was going through Jas Townsend recently and looking at cookbooks. Can anyone recommend any or give critiques? Specifically: "Cast Iron Cooking" ; "Dutch Oven Cooking" ; "Buckskinner's Cookbook" ; "The Backcountry Housewife". Thanks much, Badger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Books Date: 05 Aug 1999 14:37:00 EDT > Was going through Jas Townsend recently and looking at cookbooks. > Can anyone recommend any or give critiques? Specifically: "Cast Iron > Cooking" ; "Dutch Oven Cooking" ; "Buckskinner's Cookbook" ; "The > Backcountry Housewife". Badger, The only things those books really tell you is what to cook. They aren't really necessary for someone who knows how to cook. Anything you can make at home on your stove can be made in a Dutch oven. I taught Dutch oven cooking to Boy Scout leaders for a zillion years. All you need is a common sense approach. You can bake, broil, or stew in one. You can turn the lid upside down and use it as a griddle. Everything you cook in a Dutch oven tastes good. It is near impossible to ruin food. If it's cooking too fast., remove coals. If it's cooking to slow, add coals. The heavy lid makes it function like a pressure cooker. You can use the cheapest cuts of meat and they will come out tender. Other than common sense, there is really no big secret to Dutch oven cooking. Much to do is made about putting X number of coals on top, and X number of coals on the bottem to maintain X degrees of temperature. Hooey. Just cook your vittles and keep a wary eye on them once in a while. If you don't know what to put in the pot, then the books will give you some ideas. If you know what you like, save the money and buy a cast iron skillet with it. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: extra items for sale Date: 04 Aug 1999 20:22:24 -0400 *GRINS* Thanks for the kind offer, but I really do not want any thing for doing this. I love BP shooting, the Ronnys, etc... and if this helps others, or newbies getting started... then I am more than glad to do it. Tell ya what, if you see the "Mouse House" at a Ronny, then buy me a cup of coffee or something :) Addison Miller aka SeanBear.... (heh... don't ask) -----Original Message----- >> On Wed, 04 August 1999, ad.miller@mindspring.com wrote: >> What I'll do is place any item on the page, a pictue, a description, price, >> and email of seller. After that, everything is done through the buyer and >> the seller. I don't want a commission or anything. I maintain my own site, >> its a freebie on on geocities. >> >> Rules will be simple... You deal direct with the seller, and anything will >> be put up on the page so long as it is within our time period. It can be >> for sale, trade, barter, whatever. I assume no liability for the >> transaction or offer any warranty. I am doing this strictly as a service >> for others and expect no commission, or renumeration of any kind. >> My intent is to help others get rid of "extra stuff" ... *chuckles* probably >> so they can buy more. Sounds kinda simple to me... >> >> I'll work on the page tonite and post the address for all to see >> tomorrow... >> >> Addison Miller >> >> >> Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 11:33 AM >> >You have to pay to maintain your site, it`s only fair if we use we should >> >share expenses. >> > >> > Thank you for your consideration. >> >John (BIG JOHN) Hunt jhunt1@one.net >________________________________ >Hey "Ad", > >I'm sure that most would agree a ?? % of the sale for your efforts like John has mentioned would be fair. If they take their sellable items to a dealer they would pay a 20% for items under $500 and 10% for items above - this seems to be standard anymore, of course your using their space and they have overhead. You said your overhead is nothing, but you still have time invested and should get something for your efforts, whatever is fair to you. > >Even 5% not much when you think of the savings to the seller, when compared to going to a dealer, would help you buy a new toy, and that's the bottom line "we all need our toys". > >I will look tonight and gather up some items, it's been about two years since doing this. Use to take the funds from our sale table when we still had the store, then donate it to "Children's Hospital" here in Denver. It would surprise you how much stuff you can move, many newcomers need everything and aren't into the reenactment stuff yet. > >Thank you for the offer. > > > >Later, >Buck Conner >dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ >_____________________________________ >NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade >and early history of the times. AMM journal > >The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * >Conklin, MI 49403 >ATTN: Jon Link > >The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - >quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. >_____________________________________ > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Selling stuff Date: 05 Aug 1999 16:44:38 -0400 For those who are interested and responded, here is the address of the TRADERS ROW page I added to my site. Take a look at it, read it, and let me know what you think. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/trader.htm This will be a service ONLY for those on this list and not shared with 3rd party individuals. Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Books Date: 05 Aug 1999 17:13:57 EDT Ian, Welcome to the incredible family of buckskinning. Some of my favorite books are: "A Life Wild and Perilous" by Robert M. Utley; "Firearms, Traps & Tools Of The Mountain Men" by Carl P. Russell and the entire "Book Of Buckskinning" Series (Vol 1-7) by William H. Scurlock. Also the "Foxfire" series is a great resource. All are available online through amazon.com, and others. Other useful items are the Dixie Gun Works and Track Of The Wolf catalogs. Enjoy. Barney Fife. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Books Date: 05 Aug 1999 18:29:27 EDT Badger, I have eaten vittles from all of those and they were great. I also have the "Buffalo Cookbook" by Kim Dowling, published by the National Buffalo Association; the Original Cowboy Cookbook (recipes from the 1840's) by 'Wild Wes' Medley published by Record Printing Company and the WABUHA Boy Scout District 'Midwest Dutch Oven Cookoff' by Bill Randall and Duane Reiter. They also have some really fine recipes. If you or anyone else wants more contact info, please let me know. Barney Fife "GIVE a man a fish and he'll eat for a day; TEACH a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer every day" Book of Fish 24:7 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Selling stuff Date: 05 Aug 1999 15:59:03 -0700 On Thu, 05 August 1999, ad.miller@mindspring.com wrote: > > For those who are interested and responded, here is the address of the > TRADERS ROW page I added to my site. Take a look at it, read it, and let me > know what you think. > > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/trader.htm > > This will be a service ONLY for those on this list and not shared with 3rd > party individuals. > > Addison Miller Addison, Looks good to me, how do we get to post our wares, etc. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Books Date: 05 Aug 1999 16:02:34 -0700 On Thu, 05 August 1999, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > Was going through Jas Townsend recently and looking at cookbooks. > > Can anyone recommend any or give critiques? Specifically: "Cast Iron > > Cooking" ; "Dutch Oven Cooking" ; "Buckskinner's Cookbook" ; "The > > Backcountry Housewife". > > Badger, > The only things those books really tell you is what to cook. They aren't > really necessary for someone who knows how to cook. Anything you can make at > home on your stove can be made in a Dutch oven. > > I taught Dutch oven cooking to Boy Scout leaders for a zillion years. All > you need is a common sense approach. You can bake, broil, or stew in one. > You can turn the lid upside down and use it as a griddle. Everything you > cook in a Dutch oven tastes good. It is near impossible to ruin food. If > it's cooking too fast., remove coals. If it's cooking to slow, add coals. > > The heavy lid makes it function like a pressure cooker. You can use the > cheapest cuts of meat and they will come out tender. Other than common > sense, there is really no big secret to Dutch oven cooking. Much to do is > made about putting X number of coals on top, and X number of coals on the > bottem to maintain X degrees of temperature. Hooey. Just cook your vittles > and keep a wary eye on them once in a while. If you don't know what to put > in the pot, then the books will give you some ideas. If you know what you > like, save the money and buy a cast iron skillet with it. > > Dave Kanger Dave I have an article done by Brook Ellitt on "care of cast iron cookware", very well done - ran it in one of our cataolgs a few years ago. Can post it on this hist_list if interested. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shootin' Bags Date: 05 Aug 1999 18:14:06 -0600 Randy, >As for my 'pack'... I >have recently been carrying a set of saddle bags with detachable pommel >bags. I coppied a set of bags that 'Short Step' has. I find that the 4 >seperate bags, 2 big- 2 small, are good for keeping my gear organized. I >carry them over my shoulder. If any one should ask... those *%#@!~+!!!! >Crows stole my horse, and left me afoot. My ladle, lead, spare stuff, >bullet mold, etc... are stashed in the saddle bags, depending on what is >expected. I appreciate your question. It has generated some good >responses, which I find educational. YMHS, Hardtack > I have begun carrying my stuff in saddlebags as well. I'm mounted when possible, but sometimes it's not. Saddlebags go over the shoulder fine and carry gear well. It's sure worked for me. Hey everyone, thanks again for the letters. Like Jon said, it's time to reconsider a couple of things for improvement! Allen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 05 Aug 1999 18:14:08 -0600 Has anyone got or seen a TVM trade gun? I'm thinking real serious about getting one. Based on their other stuff, I will, but I'd like the input. Thanks ahead of time, Allen Hall in Fort Hall country Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bvannoy Subject: MtMan-List: Glue stick Date: 05 Aug 1999 19:48:29 -0500 I took a 1/4" stick and dipped it in warm hide glue then lightly dusted with powdered charcoal. Then I dipped it again and powdered again and so on and so on etc...etc.. letting it dry partially after about 10 or so dippings. Build up a large ball of the mixture so it looks like a mutated Q-tip. Let dry completely. A large amount of shrinkage will occur. The charcoal adds some tooth to the glue for adhesion. Simply place the glue stick in a very small amount of warm water to reconstitute and use for minor glue repairs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bvannoy Subject: MtMan-List: Rice Date: 05 Aug 1999 19:55:22 -0500 Does anyone have information on the documentation of rice usage in the Spanish Borderlands. How about the by the Mountaineers of the Southern Rockies?? Chases Hawks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Books Date: 05 Aug 1999 21:15:30 EDT > Dave I have an article done by Brook Ellitt on "care of cast iron cookware", > very well done - ran it in one of our cataolgs a few years ago. Can post it > on this hist_list if interested. Buck, Brook and I are on a couple of other lists together. We generally agree to disagree with one another. Seriously though, Brook has written some good stuff which I imagine others would be interested in and some might learn from it. Maybe I'll dig out my infamous Peanut Butter and Jelly Cobbler recipe and post it. Trouble is, most of my recipes are done on the spur of the moment and then I fergit to write em down. Everybody raves about my cooking and when they want to know what's in it, I usually don't have a clue. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 05 Aug 1999 20:55:12 -0700 Turtle, Your exactly right about carrying only what you use. Every year or so, I empty out my shooting bag and haversack, scatter out the contents in the living room floor, and go through them one by one and say " When was the last time I used that ? " When I first did that it was amazing how much stuff I was carrying that I never used. The only issue with the bullet mold is, in our historical time period, it was most often carried in the shooting bag, probably because it was an item that could not be replaced very easily. The bags I have been making the last few years have been recreations of bags that are illustrated in Madison Grant's book. I learned a long tome ago that when you stray from the designs and the dimensions of the originals, you are making a large mistake. Those guys did this stuff for a living, and their gear had to work for them. I would love to see a picture or sketch of the bag that Buck mentioned. I never miss the chance to look at original bags and powder horns. YMOS, Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Larry, > The bag Buck mentioned (the original of William Potts), I got to copy and have used for about 12 years now. I guess Buck was right in copying one that was used as a daily tool for the man's livelyhood. For years I carried a number of extra items, then it was suggested to make a list on a 10 day canoe trip of everything I used - anything that was not listed was left at home from then on, funny after a few years I traded much of that stuff off. In this hobby it seems we get into gathering gadgets, and neat items, then half of them just sit around. > > When Buckhorn Rendezvous was still operating, they would have a garage sale once a year of new items, Buck said they where things that him and Ben thought where great, but turned out they where the only ones that thought so. They would have tables full of stuff from local buckskinners that decided they no longer needed items once carried in their haversacks or shooting bags. We all need to do as I was told, "make a list of what you use, and how often, then can one item be used for several jobs - if so leave the dupliate at home". > Turtle. > > >> On Wed, 04 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: >> Guys, >> This discussion on shooting bags is great ! My gear inside the bag hasn't >> changed much in the last few years, but I seem to build a new bag every >> years or so. The bag I am currently using is made of braintan deeskin, >> which was not broken quite as well as it should have been. It is still >> quite soft but has more body to it than braintan that is done really well. >> The bag is a simple single pouch with no gusset, but it is sewn with a welt. >> It measures 8 1/2 X 9 inches. The flap is double thickness of the braintan >> with a button to hold it closed. It has a single small pocket which carries >> a cleaning jag, an extra flint, a few patches, and a small oak twig that is >> whittled to fit as a plug for the touch hole which is used when I wash the >> bore of my rifle. In the main part of the bag there is a small bag that >> holds about ten round balls. I carry a separate bullet pouch for the bulk >> of my amunition. It either hangs from a separate strap or from my belt. I >> find I can load faster with this arrangement. The rest of the gear includes >> : forged pliers, forged screwdriver-flint knapper, fire steel, flint, bag of >> tow, bag of extra gun flints, deerskin wallet that holds extra jags a tow >> worm and ball puller, folding knife, rolls of ticking strips used for >> patching, a can of grease used for lubing patches and the bore of my rifle, >> and a small brass tube that contains bear oil for oiling the lock. My >> powder measure hangs from the neck of my powder horn, and the vent pick is >> carried in the patchbox. My patch knife is attached to the back of the >> bag. >> I carry the bullet mold, ladle, and lead in my haversack. Where to carry >> these items has always been somewhat of a dilema. It seems the bullet mold >> was most often carried in the shooting bag, but it is of no use without the >> ladle and lead and that is more weight than I want to carry in the shooting >> bag. What to do ? >> This how I carry my stuff, and it works pretty well for me. How one uses >> a shooting bag and other accoutrements is a very individual thing. What >> works for one person may or may not work for the next. >> Pendleton >> -----Original Message----- >> From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:37 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag >> >> >> >On Wed, 04 August 1999, "john c. funk,jr" wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> Buck, >> >> >> >> Fascinating !!!! What were the dimensions of the bag? >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:15 PM >> >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Wed, 04 August 1999, bvannoy wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > Allen, >> >> > > >> >> > > I carry the usual stuff in a large oiltan double pouch with a few >> >> > > additions. A pair of handforged pliers ( good for pulling thorns to >> >> > > holding balls to trim sprues), a handforged screwdriver, a horn >> funnel, >> >> > > and a hide glue stick for repairs. In my bad's divider I've sewn >> loops >> >> > > for my tools and such. Much easier to find in the dark and beats >> >> > > digging at the bottom of my bag. No telling what resides down >> >> > > there! >> >> > > Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy >> >> > ---------------------------------------- >> >> > This is part of an article that will appear in T&LR in the near future. >> >> > ---------------------------------------- >> >> > I now have a small bag copied from one a hunter from Pottstown PA >> carried >> >> as part of his profession for a 28 years career from 1787 to 1815. >> >> > >> >> > For contents, I found his wares to be very interesting, knowing it >> >> belonged and was designed by one that worked with it every day as a tool >> of >> >> his trade. >> >> > >> >> > Lets start with the small tin containers; 1-3/4 X 4-1/2 X 1-1/4 inches, >> >> hinged on the end with a simple pressurer clip to keep the lid secured. >> >> > >> >> > Inside - container #1: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items >> >> > from making noise, (1) combination screwdriver-knapper, (1) vent >> >> pick-handforged, (1) iron ball jag, (1) tow worm, (1) handforged small >> nail >> >> used to insert in small hole in ramrod if rod became stuck, (1) small >> >> folding pocket knife, (2) flicker feathers used to plug vent hole in bad >> >> weather, (1) small brass bell with leather thong-apparently this hunter >> had >> >> a dog for his companion. Oh, almost forgot (1) small round tin container >> >> apprx. 7/8 dia. X 3/4 inches deep-used for patch lube and lip baum. >> >> > >> >> > Inside - container #2: brained deer hide liner used to keep other items >> >> from making noise, (6) small handforged fishing hooks with tappered end, >> >> > (4) small [.29 cal.] round balls-weights, (2) corncob floats, (2) 6 >> foot >> >> pieces of linen thread, (4) horsehair leaders, (1) small round tin 3/4 X >> 3/4 >> >> inches-bees wax, (2) handmade sewing needles, (3) thin leather thongs, >> and >> >> (2) iron blanket pins 1-1/2 inches in dia. >> >> > >> >> > Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow ticking-.012 thickness, small >> >> handmade bottle of cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with small >> >> > turn screw and vent pick, brained deer hide ball bag-20 /.435 round >> balls. >> >> > >> >> > On the back of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 inch >> overall >> >> length butcher knife. >> >> > >> >> > Contents in front pocket: (1) 3 hole bullet board with thong attached >> to >> >> an adjustable powder measurer, (1) small oval tin 3 X 4 X 3/4 inches with >> >> 3-1/2 X 1 inch striker, (3) flint flakes, tow, tin of char, and (6) >> sulfer >> >> matches, container again lined with brained deer hide. (1) small >> handforged >> >> single jaw trap [muskrat], wooden cased compass 2 X 2 X 7/8 >> >> > inches, (3) bees wax candles wrapped in linen cloth, >> >> > (1) small wooden salt barrel 3/4 X 2 inches, and (1) 2 piece turkey >> wing >> >> bone call. >> >> > >> >> > This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 to >> >> > 1815 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are >> >> used, every item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. >> >> > >> >> > Note things like bullet molds, ladels, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. >> are >> >> items cached or left at his residents in the settlements. >> >> > >> >> > Something we found interesting in his journal was the mention of not >> using >> >> tobacco, feeling that the odor from such activity would hamper his >> ability >> >> to get close to game. >> >> > ----------------------------------- >> >> > >> >> > Later, >> >> > Buck Conner >> >----------------------------------- >> >John, >> >Your going to have me end up putting the whole article on here. >> > >> >His bag small by some folks standards, 8-1/2 X 9 inches made of >> >commerical cow hide, dark brown in color with a wide strap of 1-1/2 >> >inches with a handforged buckle for adjustment of the length and made of >> >tightely woven linen in forest colors, now dull from useage and age. The >> >bag has a 2" gusset with a divider making two compartments (lined with >> >linen material), there are to small leather pockets attached to the back >> >of the bag - used to hold to small tin containers. >> > >> >All seams are welted, even the edge of the flap that is covered with >> >linen on the inside and having a narrow welted slit to make a storage >> >area for patching material. A clever idea that one should consider when >> >building his next pouch, making easy access to your shooting and >> >cleaning material, as well as adding weight to the flap to keep it in >> >place - flap has a tong used to sucure it to the pewter button attached >> >at the bottom of the bag. This will give you a pretty good idea of the >> >appearance and how this bag is set up. >> >----------------------------------- >> >Later, >> >Buck Conner > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Farseer" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 05 Aug 1999 20:49:38 -0500 This is a great thread!!!! Gotta admit, as a greenhorn, I'm still picking up on tips and tricks, and this has been fascinating. Todd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Farseer" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 05 Aug 1999 20:52:01 -0500 What do most folks use as vials for holding gun oil, and I saw someone said cleaner as well? Like to find something authentic, and leakproof, yet small enough to carry. I have a Ted Cash one drop oiler I keep in the my gun box, but I'm pretty certain that o-ring sealed cans are a little late for the time period I'm wanting to play in. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > ad.miller@mindspring.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:06 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag > > > Last year goin to tha Alafia, I committed a MORTAL SIN!!! Somehow my > "halfhimers" caught up with me, and I FORGOT my possibles bag!!! > Everyting > else made it in tha big metal covered wagon I haul all this stuff > with, but > my possibles bag got left on the wall..... > > Bein the resourceful person that I am, I done got me a moccasin grade side > of elk and commenced to workin on it. In a couple of hours (I'm > slow when I > want it done right) I hade a right passable possible bag. It's > about 7" by > 9", double pocket with 2 smaller pockets sewn inside, and a large > over flap. > For weight to keep the flap shut, I sewed a pewter Ronnyvous medallion on > it. In it is my forged pliers, 50 - .50 cal ball, forged knapper > and screw > driver, 4 pre-lubed rolls of patching, worm and etc..., flint > wallet, a few > extra hide thongs, spring clamp, a plaion old rag, a small vial > of gun oil, > plain dry patches fer swabbin, a small vial of bore cleaner, a > patch knife, > and hangin on a thong are my pan primer and a vent pick/brush combo. > > I'm gonna use your idea and sew some loops on the inside to hold the tools > instead of letting them just lay in the bottom of the bag... > > Addison Miller > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Farseer" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 05 Aug 1999 20:53:42 -0500 I think it's a great idea. I've worked at a local Rennaissance Festival for 14 years now (finally got tired of it, and workin my way forward a bit in time as it were), and the Rennie Rummage Sale always is welcome. One mans castoffs are anothers treasure, and I've found some wonderful bits at those sales. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > ad.miller@mindspring.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:19 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag > > > > They would have tables full of stuff from local buckskinners that decided > they no longer needed items once carried in their haversacks or shooting > bags. We all need to do as I was told, "make a list of what you > use, and how > often, then can one item be used for several jobs - if so leave > the dupliate > at home". > > Turtle. > > > > That would be a heck of an idea for the list.... Put our "extra stuff" up > for sale, trade, whatever... Again, if anyone would like, I'll > make a page > on my site, accessable by this list only, and you can put a pix and a > description with the price and your email address. No charge... > just trying > to help everyone out... > > Let me know what you think... > > Addison Miller > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Farseer" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: TVM Pistol Date: 05 Aug 1999 21:01:16 -0500 Sorry to ask dumb questions, but where can you get moose milk, besides Friendship (leastwise, I saw it there). Is Thompson Centers No 13 at all comparable? I use it for cleaning and swabbing, but not for a lube. Will it even work as a lube? Reckon I can try it out tomorrow evening instead of asking dumb questions, huh? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of RR1LA@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 1:34 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Pistol > > > Allen, et al: I have found the same as you... TVM (Jack Garner) > makes a fine > product. I have both the Kentucky Pistol and Southern Poor Boy > Rifle in .54, > and the rifle took 1st in a trail walk the first time out. > Pistol needed a > bit of sighting but is VERY accurate at 25 yds. I would highly > recommend all > of Jacks products. > > My shooting bag is a double pocketed elk hide about 9 x 10, with > a red wool > heart inset in the flap. Its contents vary with the gun(s) I'm > carrying. For > my TVM Rifle / Pistol I carry about 30 balls in .530, tin can > full of .010 > patches soaked in Moose Milk and a small corked tin bottle of > Moose Milk for > lubing and swabbing, along with a set of flinters tools, ram rod > attachments > and small flints pouch. The strap holds my patch knife, powder > measure and > ball starter. Barney Fife > > "GIVE a man a fish and he'll eat for a day; TEACH a man to fish > and he'll sit > in a boat and drink beer for the rest of his life." Book of Fish 24:7 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 05 Aug 1999 23:05:30 -0400 I use a Sargents bottle from Pete Gobel to keep a little whale oil in. Has worked for years without complaint. D Farseer wrote: > What do most folks use as vials for holding gun oil, and I saw someone said > cleaner as well? Like to find something authentic, and leakproof, yet > small enough to carry. I have a Ted Cash one drop oiler I keep in the my > gun box, but I'm pretty certain that o-ring sealed cans are a little late > for the time period I'm wanting to play in. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > > ad.miller@mindspring.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:06 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag > > > > > > Last year goin to tha Alafia, I committed a MORTAL SIN!!! Somehow my > > "halfhimers" caught up with me, and I FORGOT my possibles bag!!! > > Everyting > > else made it in tha big metal covered wagon I haul all this stuff > > with, but > > my possibles bag got left on the wall..... > > > > Bein the resourceful person that I am, I done got me a moccasin grade side > > of elk and commenced to workin on it. In a couple of hours (I'm > > slow when I > > want it done right) I hade a right passable possible bag. It's > > about 7" by > > 9", double pocket with 2 smaller pockets sewn inside, and a large > > over flap. > > For weight to keep the flap shut, I sewed a pewter Ronnyvous medallion on > > it. In it is my forged pliers, 50 - .50 cal ball, forged knapper > > and screw > > driver, 4 pre-lubed rolls of patching, worm and etc..., flint > > wallet, a few > > extra hide thongs, spring clamp, a plaion old rag, a small vial > > of gun oil, > > plain dry patches fer swabbin, a small vial of bore cleaner, a > > patch knife, > > and hangin on a thong are my pan primer and a vent pick/brush combo. > > > > I'm gonna use your idea and sew some loops on the inside to hold the tools > > instead of letting them just lay in the bottom of the bag... > > > > Addison Miller > > > > > > -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Containing liquids Date: 05 Aug 1999 20:35:57 -0700 A small corked bottle works well, but create a small, tieable, leather cover for it to keep the cork from working loose. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Garber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: osage orange Date: 05 Aug 1999 22:52:23 +0100 Linda, Splitting @ 16 or so bow staves next week, most will not be suited for a bow, will keep the rejects, they are 5 or 6 feet long and might make your dimemsions. Contact off list, I'll just build a fire with the rest, We have lots of it here in Mo. Hear It came from Texas, We at times do cuss it. Howdy ,Henry B. Thanks for the tour of Bents Fort Sunday,, hope the rain stopped for your doo there, Keith Garber, Keith G. S.W. Missouri ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 00:02:43 -0400 >What do most folks use as vials for holding gun oil, and I saw someone said >cleaner as well? Like to find something authentic, and leakproof, yet >small enough to carry I use a small brass, one drop oiler. Might be a Cash... not sure... heh... leave my possibles bag in the tin covered wagon so I don't forget it again... You only make that mistake once!! I guess "vial" can bring all sorts of things to mind, mainly glass... One is brass (oil) and the other is tin with a cork stopper... The oiler holds about 1/4 ounce, and the tin one holds about 2 ounces... Tin is the one I use for cleaner... ITs a simple mixture of water, dawn (I know, not period... but it works), and a bit of olive oil. Addison ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glue stick Date: 05 Aug 1999 23:04:01 -0500 An 1820's receipt. _______________________________________ "TO MAKE PORTABLE GLUE Take 1 lb of the best glue, boil and strain it very clear; boil likewise = 4 oz. of isinglass, put it in a double glue-pot, with =BD lb. of fine brown sugar, and boil it pretty thick; then pour it into moulds; when cold, cut and dry them in small pieces. This glue is very useful to draughtsmen, architects, etc., as it immediately dilutes in warm water, and fastens th= e paper without the process of damping." ___________________________________________ This could also be called mouth glue. Will fasten more than paper. John... At 07:48 PM 8/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >I took a 1/4" stick and dipped it in warm hide glue then lightly dusted >with powdered charcoal. Then I dipped it again and powdered again and >so on and so on etc...etc.. >letting it dry partially after about 10 or so dippings. Build up a >large ball of the mixture so it looks like a mutated Q-tip. Let dry >completely. A large amount of shrinkage will occur. The charcoal adds >some tooth to the glue for adhesion. Simply place the glue stick in a >very small amount of warm water to reconstitute and use for minor glue >repairs. >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan R Macready Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 19:08:59 +1200 Farseer wrote: I have a Ted Cash one drop oiler I keep in the my >gun box, but I'm pretty certain that o-ring sealed cans are a little late >for the time period I'm wanting to play in. I have a one drop oiler (with a leather seal ) and I know that it is at least 120 years old.It is german silver made in England YMOS CUTFINGER Friendships made. Problems shared. Campfires across the Wilderness Auckland ,New Zealand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glue stick Date: 06 Aug 1999 06:51:51 -0500 John Great receipt. Sounds like my ex-wife's gravy...don't ask about her = biscuits. I have always been told that isinglass is the mineral mica, = but in the Noah Webster 1828 dictionary we find this entry: I'SINGLASS, n. i'zinglass. [that is, ise or ice-glass.] A substance consisting chiefly of gelatin, of a firm texture and whitish = color, prepared from the sounds or air-bladders of certain fresh water = fishes, particularly of the huso, a fish of the sturgeon kind, found in = the rivers of Russia. It is used as an agglutinant and in fining wines. I wonder what available substance would substitute? The word = "I'SINGLASS" is used elsewhere in the dictionary in the following = entries: (note the mention of fish glue) ICHTHYOCOL'LA, n. [Gr. a fish, and glue.] Fish-glue; isinglass; a glue = prepared from the sounds of fish. BIRDS'NEST, n. [bird and nest.] The nest in which a bird lays eggs and = hatches her young. 1. A plant, a species of Ophrys or twyblade; also a species of Orchis. 2. In cookery, the nest of a small swallow, of China, and the = neighboring countries, delicately tasted,and mixed with soups. This nest = is found in the rocks; it is of a hemispherical figure, of the size of a = goose egg, and in substance resembles isinglass. In the East, these = nests are esteemed a great luxury, and sell at a very high price. BLANC-MANGER, pron. blomonge. In cookery, a preparation of dissolved = isinglass, milk, sugar, cinnamon, &c., boiled into a thick = consistence,and garnished for the table with blanched almonds. CARLOCK, n. A sort of isinglass from Russia, made of the sturgeons = bladder, and used in clarifying wine. CLARIFIER, n. 1. That which clarifies or purifies; as, whites of eggs, blood and = isinglass are clarifiers of liquors. COLLIGATE, v.t. To tie or bind together. The pieces of isinglass are colligated in rows. HU'SO, n. A fish of the genus Accipenser, whose mouth is in the under = part of the head; the body is naked, or without prickles or = protuberances. It grows to the length of twenty four feet, and its skin = is so tough that it is used for ropes in drawing wheel-carriages. It = inhabits the Danube and the rivers of Russia, and of its sounds is made = isinglass. WAFER, n. 1. A thin cake or leaf; as a wafer of bread given by the Romanists in = the Eucharist. 2. A thin leaf of paste, or a composition of flour, the white of eggs, = isinglass and yeast, spread over with gumwater and dried; used in = sealing letters. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 11:04 PM An 1820's receipt. _______________________________________ "TO MAKE PORTABLE GLUE Take 1 lb of the best glue, boil and strain it very clear; boil likewise = 4 oz. of isinglass, put it in a double glue-pot, with =BD lb. of fine = brown sugar, and boil it pretty thick; then pour it into moulds; when cold, = cut and dry them in small pieces. This glue is very useful to draughtsmen, architects, etc., as it immediately dilutes in warm water, and fastens = the paper without the process of damping." ___________________________________________ This could also be called mouth glue. Will fasten more than paper. John... At 07:48 PM 8/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >I took a 1/4" stick and dipped it in warm hide glue then lightly dusted >with powdered charcoal. Then I dipped it again and powdered again and >so on and so on etc...etc.. >letting it dry partially after about 10 or so dippings. Build up a >large ball of the mixture so it looks like a mutated Q-tip. Let dry >completely. A large amount of shrinkage will occur. The charcoal adds >some tooth to the glue for adhesion. Simply place the glue stick in a >very small amount of warm water to reconstitute and use for minor glue >repairs. >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 05:47:00 -0700 On Thu, 05 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: The only issue with the bullet mold is, in our historical time period, it was most often carried in the shooting bag, probably because it was an item that could not be replaced very easily. The bags I have been making the last few years have been recreations of bags that are illustrated in Madison Grant's book. I learned a long tome ago that when you stray from the designs and the dimensions of the originals, you are making a large mistake........... ...................................... Larry, Right after Grant's pouch book came out I was up visiting Charlie at the museum in Chardon, we where cleaning display cases I think was the reason I went up. Anyway we got to looking at Madison's book one evening, of which many have bullet molds, but only a few have lead bar. Charlie started shaking his head in the direction of a "NO", this happens several times within a few pages. I asked what's the problem, his reply is "very seldom did he ever find reference to a bullet mold carried in the shooting pouch in all his years of research." He felt yes the mold and lead was there, but cached at camp, in the bedroll, pack or the haversack, not in the shooting bag. The reason you see them in the bags today (collections) is they where placed there years later to keep everything together my family or dealers, he said he had done the same thing himself for years. Now everyone sees them in the bag and now that's where they should be. Charlie brought up a good point, "why would you carry a mold and several pieces of lead bar (considering the weight) when you could have something useable like round ball - half the weight and half the bulk !" When you give this some thought and consider everything Charlie mentioned, many of us believe he's probably correct in his thinking on these two items. So, put the mold and lead bar in the bed roll, haversack, pack, etc. they wouldn't help in a fight or killing game, yes a valuable item, just stored in the wrong location. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 08:59:39 -0400 Buck, Charlie will be missed for sure.. I had more than one $20 phone call show up on my bill due to a question I asked during the course of conversation with him. I carry my ball mould and a couple a small "fingers" of lead wrapped in the middle of my bedroll. For what it is worth. I have a few ball in my bag, enough for a couple of days. Think of when you are going to find time to "run ball" anyway...At camp, in the evening, or morning over a nice glowing bed of coals. BTW. I have a nice reworked .600 Rapine that I want to trade for a .570.. Can't hardly beat them damned .600's in the rifle-gun.....Right tight fit though... D buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > Larry, > Right after Grant's pouch book came out I was up visiting Charlie at the museum in Chardon, we where cleaning display cases I think was the reason I went up. Anyway we got to looking at Madison's book one evening, of which many have bullet molds, but only a few have lead bar. > > Charlie started shaking his head in the direction of a "NO", this happens several times within a few pages. I asked what's the problem, his reply is "very seldom did he ever find reference to a bullet mold carried in the shooting pouch in all his years of research." He felt yes the mold and lead was there, but cached at camp, in the bedroll, pack or the haversack, not in the shooting bag. > > The reason you see them in the bags today (collections) is they where placed there years later to keep everything together my family or dealers, he said he had done the same thing himself for years. Now everyone sees them in the bag and now that's where they should be. > > Charlie brought up a good point, "why would you carry a mold and several pieces of lead bar (considering the weight) when you could have something useable like round ball - half the weight and half the bulk !" > > When you give this some thought and consider everything Charlie mentioned, many of us believe he's probably correct in his thinking on these two items. So, put the mold and lead bar in the bed roll, haversack, pack, etc. they wouldn't help in a fight or killing game, yes a valuable item, just stored in the wrong location. > > Later, > Buck Conner > dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > _____________________________________ > NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade > and early history of the times. AMM journal > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * > Conklin, MI 49403 > ATTN: Jon Link > > The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - > quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. > _____________________________________ > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 06:14:47 -0700 On Fri, 06 August 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: > > Buck, > Charlie will be missed for sure.. I had more than one $20 phone call show up on my bill due to a question I asked during the course of conversation with him. > I carry my ball mould and a couple a small "fingers" of lead wrapped in the middle of my bedroll. For what it is worth. I have a few ball in my bag, enough for a couple of days. Think of when you are going to find time to "run ball" anyway...At camp, in the evening, or morning over a nice glowing bed of coals. > BTW. I have a nice reworked .600 Rapine that I want to trade for a .570.. Can't hardly beat them damned .600's in the rifle-gun.....Right tight fit though... > D > > > buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > Larry, > > Right after Grant's pouch book came out I was up visiting Charlie at the museum in Chardon, we where cleaning display cases I think was the reason I went up. Anyway we got to looking at Madison's book one evening, of which many have bullet molds, but only a few have lead bar. > > > > Charlie started shaking his head in the direction of a "NO", this happens several times within a few pages. I asked what's the problem, his reply is "very seldom did he ever find reference to a bullet mold carried in the shooting pouch in all his years of research." He felt yes the mold and lead was there, but cached at camp, in the bedroll, pack or the haversack, not in the shooting bag. > > > > The reason you see them in the bags today (collections) is they where placed there years later to keep everything together my family or dealers, he said he had done the same thing himself for years. Now everyone sees them in the bag and now that's where they should be. > > > > Charlie brought up a good point, "why would you carry a mold and several pieces of lead bar (considering the weight) when you could have something useable like round ball - half the weight and half the bulk !" > > > > When you give this some thought and consider everything Charlie mentioned, many of us believe he's probably correct in his thinking on these two items. So, put the mold and lead bar in the bed roll, haversack, pack, etc. they wouldn't help in a fight or killing game, yes a valuable item, just stored in the wrong location. > > > > Later, > > Buck Conner .............................................. If you close your eyes and let your mind wonder, you too may see what many can invision, a camp fire with figures sitting around, a closer look at this scene, the faces become clearer and right in the middle sits Old Charley asking questions, taking notes and living on every word of passed adventures, as names of men and their deeds come together. AND PROBABLY A FEW ARE CASTING BALL ALONG WITH THE STORY TELLING. God Bless these men of adventure. “Waugh” Dennis you paid attention to the old man, and placed your mold in the right place, alright. I'll give it some thought on that mold and will look up that information on "Fawn Killer" today. Worked last weekend, "weekend from hell" reason for being off today, went in last night and told my V.P. to stick the job - half an hour later I"m back at my desk and get a call and job offer to work for another V.P. - now waiting for a release date from the asshole I work for at the moment. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 08:17:20 -0600 Ho the List, Lots of great stuff in this thread. Most everything mentioned seems pretty standard as they are requirements for shooting and cleaning any charcoal burner. One thing I carry that I have not seen mentioned is a cow's knee. I find that it is usually rainy here during muzzleloading elk season, especially in the Bayou Salade. I credit this item with more than one year of feasting on FAT COW. As of yet, I do not cast my own balls, but I can see the historical correctness and esthetic pleasure it must bring while yarnin around the fire. My question, are the Rapine molds the ones to buy, or are there better ones to be had? Thanks in advance, Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Farseer [SMTP:farseer@swbell.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 7:50 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag > > This is a great thread!!!! Gotta admit, as a greenhorn, I'm still > picking > up on tips and tricks, and this has been fascinating. > > Todd > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 21:41:53 -0400 One thing I carry that I have not seen mentioned is a cow's knee. I find that it is usually rainy here during muzzleloading elk season, especially in the Bayou Salade. I credit this item with more than one year of feasting on FAT COW. ========================== Ok, I gotta ask...... What is a Cows Knee? I am aware of what the joint looks like, if you are refering to the actual knee of a cow... If so, what or how is it used?? Addison ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 07:43:10 -0700 > > > When you give this some thought and consider everything Charlie mentioned, many of us believe he's probably correct in his thinking on these two items. So, put the mold and lead bar in the bed roll, haversack, pack, etc. they wouldn't help in a fight or killing game, yes a valuable item, just stored in the wrong location. > > > > > > Later, > > > Buck Conner > > .............................................. > If you close your eyes and let your mind wonder, you too may see what many can invision, a camp fire with figures sitting around, a closer look at this scene, the faces become clearer and right in the middle sits Old Charley asking questions, taking notes and living on every word of passed adventures, as names of men and their deeds come together. > > AND PROBABLY A FEW ARE CASTING BALL ALONG WITH THE STORY TELLING. > > God Bless these men of adventure. “Waugh” > Buck, I have always liked the statement above that you wrote at the time of Charley's passing, brother I bet he's getting an ear full from those that where there. You can bet he's documenting every little item these guys used and carried. Thanks for sharing that part of his "tribute" from the past. I wish we would have done as you, and spent as much time as possible at the museum - again you where right, and I couldn't hear what you where telling me, and now "THE MAN" is gone. ___________________________________ Take care, folks D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + "One who favors the finer things in life" ___________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 07:52:16 -0700 On Wed, 04 August 1999, ad.miller@mindspring.com wrote: > > > > One thing I carry that I have not seen mentioned is a cow's knee. I > find that it is usually rainy here during muzzleloading elk season, > especially in the Bayou Salade. I credit this item with more than one year > of feasting on FAT COW. > > ========================== > > Ok, I gotta ask...... What is a Cows Knee? I am aware of what the joint > looks like, if you are refering to the actual knee of a cow... If so, what > or how is it used?? > > Addison A cow's knee son, Is a leather cover that cover's the lock area of you gun, many old one's where made from the back leg of a cow - thus the name "cow's knee". They are held in place with a thong or two and well greased to provide a waterproof cover - keeping this area clean and function ready. A gentlemen(one of wealth)would have a fancy tooled one made of commerical tanned leather, use to be a real nice one at the museum in Chardon, NE. ___________________________________ Take care, folks D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + "One who favors the finer things in life" ___________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 08:59:57 -0600 Addison, Sorry for not being more explicit, thought everyone would know what I was talking about. I should know better than to ASSume. A cow's knee is a heavily greased leather device that is shaped to conform to the lock area of a flinter (or capgun). The shape IS reminiscent of the real thing when it's all done. It can be tied, buttoned or whatever to cover the lock area to keep out moisture. I think I copied the one in George Laycock's book, The Mountain Men. A simple pattern can be made by laying your rifle on a piece of brown wrapping paper and roughly tracing around the lock area and down wide enough to wrap almost all the way around the stock. This should cover your lock and extend toward wrist and forearm an inch or two either side.Then cut two pieces of leather from this pattern and sew together. You'll now see the cow's knee shape. I put two antler tips on one side and two loops on the other to kind of button the bottom together, but still be able to remove quickly if the aforementioned FAT COW shows herself. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: ad.miller@mindspring.com [SMTP:ad.miller@mindspring.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 7:42 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag > > > > One thing I carry that I have not seen mentioned is a cow's knee. I > find that it is usually rainy here during muzzleloading elk season, > especially in the Bayou Salade. I credit this item with more than one year > of feasting on FAT COW. > > ========================== > > Ok, I gotta ask...... What is a Cows Knee? I am aware of what the joint > looks like, if you are refering to the actual knee of a cow... If so, what > or how is it used?? > > Addison > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 04 Aug 1999 22:11:01 -0400 DOH!! Thanks Concho :) I have seen these but never knew what they were called. We don't use them much here in South Florida because the rainy season is in the Summer, and its just too darned hot down here then to go out and do anything... Ad Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Books Date: 06 Aug 1999 09:45:15 -0600 Ian, You mentioned looking for the books on Dean's web page. Aside from looking at the library, my suggestion is to read the documents in Dean's LIBRARY section. I quote "Most of these are either primary or secondary historical sources; that is, either written by, or as told by those who were actually there." You couldn't ask for a better place to start, should keep you busy for many years, and I do mean years. I've been trying to learn all I can for almost 10 years now, and I feel I don't hold a candle to the likes of some on this list. But keep after it, it's the BEST way to occupy yourself and the people you'll meet on the trail are like no other. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Small [SMTP:ismall@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 1:05 AM > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Books > > Hello, > > I am a new member to the list and a very new student to Mountain Man > History. My name is Ian Small and I was wondering if those of you on the > list could suggest some good books on the subject for me. Thank you very > much. > > Ian Small > > "From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is > something up with which I will not put."-Winston Churchill > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 06 Aug 1999 10:01:14 PDT I'm interested in finding out what the average number of beaver pelts taken during the fall and spring hunts was, per trapper. What was considered a poor year, and what was considered a good year? Was there a quota, that company men were expected to meet? Any and all responses appreciated. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rice Date: 06 Aug 1999 10:18:33 -0700 "Edward Warren" (Drummond Stewart's recollections in semi-novel form) mentioned a "pilaff" which a footnote identified as a rice dish, prepared some days after leaving the settlements for the Rockies (from St Louis area) which presumably used up supplies brought at the start. Not relevant to the Southern Rockies as requested, but I thought I'd throw it in. Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 5:55 PM Does anyone have information on the documentation of rice usage in the Spanish Borderlands. How about the by the Mountaineers of the Southern Rockies?? Chases Hawks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glue stick Date: 06 Aug 1999 12:11:18 -0500 Lanney, It is true that thin sheets of mica when used as windows in carriages and stoves were called isinglass. The more common usage and probably older u= se was in reference to the glue made from the air bladder of sturgeons. I am not aware of a current source for isinglass. The last industry I kn= ow to use it on a regular basis was for the manufacture of split tonkin cane fl= y rods. The Leonard Rod Company was the last to convert to modern glue so = they may have a source. As so much trade is presently coming from Russia and = they have so many sturgeon maybe one of the importers is bringing some in. You might try using rabbit skin glue (from an artist supply house) in combination with ground or pearled hide glue and see what happens. =20 John... At 06:51 AM 8/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >John >Great receipt.=A0 Sounds like my ex-wife's gravy...don't ask about her biscuits.=A0=A0 I have always been told that isinglass is the mineral mic= a, but in the Noah Webster 1828 dictionary we find this entry: > >I'SINGLASS, n. i'zinglass. [that is, ise or ice-glass.] >A substance consisting chiefly of gelatin, of a firm texture and whitish color, prepared from the sounds or air-bladders of certain fresh water fi= shes, particularly of the huso, a fish of the sturgeon kind, found in the river= s of Russia.=A0 It is used as an agglutinant and in fining wines. > >I wonder what available substance would substitute?=A0=A0 The word "I'SI= NGLASS"=A0 is used elsewhere in the dictionary in the following entries: (note the mention of fish glue) > >ICHTHYOCOL'LA, n. [Gr. a fish, and glue.]=A0 Fish-glue; isinglass; a glu= e prepared from the sounds of fish. > >BIRDS'NEST, n. [bird and nest.]=A0 The nest in which a bird lays eggs an= d hatches her young. >1.=A0 A plant, a species of Ophrys or twyblade; also a species of Orchis. >2.=A0 In cookery, the nest of a small swallow, of China, and the neighbo= ring countries, delicately tasted,and mixed with soups. This nest is found in = the rocks; it is of a hemispherical figure, of the size of a goose egg, and i= n substance resembles isinglass.=A0 In the East, these nests are esteemed a= great luxury, and sell at a very high price. > >BLANC-MANGER, pron. blomonge.=A0 In cookery, a preparation of dissolved isinglass, milk, sugar, cinnamon, &c., boiled into a thick consistence,an= d garnished for the table with blanched almonds. > >CARLOCK, n.=A0 A sort of isinglass from Russia, made of the sturgeons bl= adder, and used in clarifying wine. > >CLARIFIER, n. >1.=A0 That which clarifies or purifies; as, whites of eggs, blood and is= inglass are clarifiers of liquors. > >COLLIGATE, v.t.=A0 To tie or bind together. >The pieces of isinglass are colligated in rows. > >HU'SO, n. A fish of the genus Accipenser, whose mouth is in the under pa= rt of the head; the body is naked, or without prickles or protuberances. It gro= ws to the length of twenty four feet, and its skin is so tough that it is used = for ropes in drawing wheel-carriages. It inhabits the Danube and the rivers o= f Russia, and of its sounds is made isinglass. > >WAFER, n. >1. A thin cake or leaf; as a wafer of bread given by the Romanists in th= e Eucharist. >2. A thin leaf of paste, or a composition of flour, the white of eggs, isinglass and yeast, spread over with gumwater and dried; used in sealing letters. > >YMOS >Lanney Ratcliff > > > >----- Original Message -----=20 >From: John Kramer >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 11:04 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glue stick > > >An 1820's receipt. >_______________________________________ >"TO MAKE PORTABLE GLUE > >Take 1 lb of the best glue, boil and strain it very clear; boil likewise= 4 >oz. of isinglass, put it in a double glue-pot, with =BD lb. of fine brow= n >sugar, and boil it pretty thick; then pour it into moulds; when cold, cu= t >and dry them in small pieces.=A0 This glue is very useful to draughtsmen= , >architects, etc., as it immediately dilutes in warm water, and fastens t= he >paper without the process of damping." >___________________________________________ > >This could also be called mouth glue.=A0=A0 Will fasten more than paper. > >John... > >At 07:48 PM 8/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >>I took a 1/4" stick and dipped it in warm hide glue then lightly dusted >>with powdered charcoal.=A0 Then I dipped it again and powdered again an= d >>so on and so on etc...etc.. >>letting it dry partially after about 10 or so dippings.=A0 Build up a >>large ball of the mixture so it looks like a mutated Q-tip.=A0 Let dry >>completely.=A0 A large amount of shrinkage will occur.=A0 The charcoal = adds >>some tooth to the glue for adhesion.=A0 Simply place the glue stick in = a >>very small amount of warm water to reconstitute and use for minor glue >>repairs. >>=20 >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer=A0 >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rice Date: 06 Aug 1999 10:30:53 -0700 On Fri, 06 August 1999, Pat Quilter wrote: > "Edward Warren" (Drummond Stewart's recollections in semi-novel form mentioned a "pilaff" which a footnote identified as a rice dish, prepared some days after leaving the settlements for the Rockies (from St Louis area) which presumably used up supplies brought at the start. Not relevant to the Southern Rockies as requested, but I thought I'd throw it in. Pat Quilter > > -----Original Message----- > From: bvannoy [mailto:bvannoy@mciworld.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 5:55 PM > To: MtMan-List > Subject: MtMan-List: Rice > > > Does anyone have information on the documentation of rice usage in the > Spanish Borderlands. How about the by the Mountaineers of the Southern > Rockies?? > Chases Hawks ............................................... The source material was taken from a : DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE REPORT, 1870. WASHINGTON,D.C. This report represents native products important to Indian economy and often used as a source of supply by government agents, merchants, fur traders and travelers across North America. Wild rice called pshu by the Sioux, and the Chippewas refer to it as man-om-in. It is a constant article of food with the Northern Indians of the lakes and rivers between the Mississippi and Lake Superior. This plant delights in mud and water five to twenty feet deep. When ripe the slightest wind shakes off the grains. After being gathered it is laid on scaffolds about four feet high, eight wide, and twenty to fifty long, covered with reeds and grass, and a slow fire is maintained beneath for thirty-six hours, so as to parch slightly the husk, that it may be removed easily. Its beard is tougher than a rye. To separate it from the chaff or husk, a hole is made in the ground a foot wide and one deep, and lined with skins; about a peck of rice is put in at a time; an Indian steps in, with a half jump, on one foot, then on the other, until the husk is removed. After being cleaned the grain is stored in bags. It is darker than the Caroline rice. The hull adheres tightly, and is left on the grain, and gives the bread a dark color when cooked. The husk is easily removed, after being exposed to heat. In Dakota the men gather this grain, but all other grain the women collect. An acre of rice is nearly or quite equal to an acre of wheat in nutriment. It is very palatable, when roasted and eaten dry. ............................................ And like most government reports it's at least 40 years late, so the date is probably later than the information gathered. Rice like many other items was used for trade on most of the trade routes, haven't been able to find a report that was from Bent's Fort mentioning "wild brown rice being not the quality of the imported Mexican rice", will keep looking. Don Keas may have this report or know what book it was in ! Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rice Date: 06 Aug 1999 10:45:03 -0700 Between John K., Dave K. and Buck C. to name a few, all I do is file their information - what the hell will we do when these guys and gals are retired and put all their time to this list !!! I'll have to get a new computer with one heck of a memory bank. You guys are great for a resource with your knowledge and Mr. Hanson's and others information. Thanks Turtle. > > On Fri, 06 August 1999, Pat Quilter wrote: > > "Edward Warren" (Drummond Stewart's recollections in semi-novel form mentioned a "pilaff" which a footnote identified as a rice dish, prepared some days after leaving the settlements for the Rockies (from St Louis area) which presumably used up supplies brought at the start. Not relevant to the Southern Rockies as requested, but I thought I'd throw it in. > Pat Quilter > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bvannoy [mailto:bvannoy@mciworld.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 5:55 PM > > To: MtMan-List > > Subject: MtMan-List: Rice > > > > > > Does anyone have information on the documentation of rice usage in the > > Spanish Borderlands. How about the by the Mountaineers of the Southern > > Rockies?? > > Chases Hawks > ............................................... > On Fri, 06 August 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > The source material was taken from a : > DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE REPORT, 1870. WASHINGTON,D.C. > > This report represents native products important to Indian economy and often used as a source of supply by government agents, merchants, fur traders and travelers across North > America. > > Wild rice called pshu by the Sioux, and the Chippewas refer to it as man-om-in. It is a constant article of food with the Northern Indians of the lakes and rivers between the > Mississippi and Lake Superior. This plant delights in mud and water five to twenty feet deep. When ripe the slightest wind shakes off the grains. > > After being gathered it is laid on scaffolds about four feet high, eight wide, and twenty to fifty long, covered with reeds and grass, and a slow fire is maintained beneath for thirty-six hours, so as to parch slightly the husk, that it may be removed easily. Its beard is tougher than a rye. To separate it from the chaff or husk, a hole is made in the ground a foot wide and one deep, and lined with skins; about a peck of rice is put in at a time; an Indian steps in, with a half jump, on one foot, then on the other, until the husk is removed. > > After being cleaned the grain is stored in bags. It is darker than the Caroline rice. The hull adheres tightly, and is left on the grain, and gives the bread a dark color when cooked. The husk is easily removed, after being exposed to heat. In Dakota the men gather this grain, but all other grain the women collect. An acre of rice is nearly or quite equal to an acre of wheat in nutriment. It is very palatable, when roasted and eaten dry. > ............................................ > > And like most government reports it's at least 40 years late, so the date is probably later than the information gathered. > > Rice like many other items was used for trade on most of the trade routes, haven't been able to find a report that was from Bent's Fort mentioning "wild brown rice being not the quality of the imported Mexican rice", will keep looking. Don Keas may have this report or know what book it was in ! > > > > Later, > Buck Conner > dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > _____________________________________ > NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade > and early history of the times. AMM journal > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * > Conklin, MI 49403 > ATTN: Jon Link > > The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - > quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. > _____________________________________ > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 14:26:53 -0400 > Ok, I gotta ask...... What is a Cows Knee? I am aware of what the joint > looks like, if you are refering to the actual knee of a cow... If so, what > or how is it used?? Not actually a cow's knee, just resembles one. There are some pictures of a cow's knee and some of my thoughts about flintlocks in wet weather at: http://members.aye.net/~bspen/wetflints.html Bob Bob Spencer Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Klesinger Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glue stick Date: 06 Aug 1999 14:10:27 -0600 John you lost me on all of the ingredients ? is this a fur trade item? would it or could it have been used by the trappers? your recipe looks good but is it something I would use in the field? I make hide glue sticks, much the same way as outlined in the original po= st, just dip a stick in warm glue, cool and redip.. I have never had a need f= or it but they make interesting trinkets to give away ! Another method is to just pour warm glue on a piece of tin (with a light = oil wiped on it) let cool and wrap up put in bag. Bill Klesinger _________________________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. = Give it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk foo= d. ________________________________________________________ John Kramer wrote: > An 1820's receipt. > _______________________________________ > "TO MAKE PORTABLE GLUE > > Take 1 lb of the best glue, boil and strain it very clear; boil likewis= e 4 > oz. of isinglass, put it in a double glue-pot, with =BD lb. of fine bro= wn > sugar, and boil it pretty thick; then pour it into moulds; when cold, c= ut > and dry them in small pieces. This glue is very useful to draughtsmen, > architects, etc., as it immediately dilutes in warm water, and fastens = the > paper without the process of damping." > ___________________________________________ > > This could also be called mouth glue. Will fasten more than paper. > > John... > > At 07:48 PM 8/5/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I took a 1/4" stick and dipped it in warm hide glue then lightly duste= d > >with powdered charcoal. Then I dipped it again and powdered again and > >so on and so on etc...etc.. > >letting it dry partially after about 10 or so dippings. Build up a > >large ball of the mixture so it looks like a mutated Q-tip. Let dry > >completely. A large amount of shrinkage will occur. The charcoal add= s > >some tooth to the glue for adhesion. Simply place the glue stick in a > >very small amount of warm water to reconstitute and use for minor glue > >repairs. > > > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. > John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glue stick Date: 06 Aug 1999 17:34:37 EDT another method... 'flaked' dehydated hide glue is easy to carry in a small tin; it stays dry and when needed just mix some flakes in the top of the tin with a bit of water and voila'.... Barn. "Let us be thankful for fools. But for them, the rest of us could not succeed" - Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Rice Date: 06 Aug 1999 04:30:42 -0500 Washtahay- seriously considered doing some research on this for an extra credit hour or two this session. If you want a real eye opener, take a look at the supply lists for various forts-not what was ordered but what was received. I've run across several accounts of rice being substituted for macaroni. In the early post War of 1812 days, the tobacco market had collapsed-until cotton became king, one of the few commodities the south was finding a market for was rice. If it was at the forts, it was in the commercial markets either legitimately or via the black market. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Pistol Date: 06 Aug 1999 17:44:01 EDT I found Moose Milk at a sutler by the name of Otter, out of Oregon IIRC. I think he does do Friendship, so that mighta been him. Some guys on the list will freak when I mention this BUT... Macs Radiator Lube as recommended by someone else on the list last year DOES work great. Lotsa shots between swabs, and a perfectly clean barrel after a swab with the stuff and a water rinse. Its milky white, and sure looks like Moose Milk to me. Barn. "It's too bad youth is wasted on the young" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: rice Date: 06 Aug 1999 17:30:01 -0500 > >Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 19:55:22 -0500 >From: bvannoy >Subject: MtMan-List: Rice > >Does anyone have information on the documentation of rice usage in the >Spanish Borderlands. How about the by the Mountaineers of the Southern >Rockies?? >Chases Hawks > There is good documentation on rice being used at Bent's Fort (1833-1849) as well as being carried on SF Trail freight wagons and traded at the Fort. Source is a collection of research papers and summaries written by Bill Gwaltney, and others who worked for the NPS at the Fort at one time or another. The body of research constitutes the bulk of the interpretation guidelines edited by Gwaltney and still used for the training of Fort interpreters and volunteers. Rice, grown on the South Atlantic and Gulf coasts as well as parts of the Caribbean, was pretty common during most of the Rocky Mountain fur trade era, and certainly during the Rendezvous period. Journals often indicate rice being packed along with other foodstuffs, tools, and equipment. Cheers, HBC Cheers, HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 19:38:08 -0700 Buck, Great info ! Thanks ! I guess I haven't been too far off base all along since I have been carrying the bullet mold, ladle, and lead in the haversack for years. I wish I had known the gentleman you spoke of. Too often I look back and think " If Mr. or Mrs. _______ were just here he or she would know the answer " . Pendleton -----Original Message----- >On Thu, 05 August 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: >The only issue with the bullet mold is, in our historical time period, it was most often carried in the shooting bag, probably because it was an item that could not be replaced very easily. > >The bags I have been making the last few years have been recreations of bags that are illustrated in Madison Grant's book. I learned a long tome ago that when you stray from the designs and the dimensions of the originals, you are making a large mistake........... >...................................... >Larry, >Right after Grant's pouch book came out I was up visiting Charlie at the museum in Chardon, we where cleaning display cases I think was the reason I went up. Anyway we got to looking at Madison's book one evening, of which many have bullet molds, but only a few have lead bar. > >Charlie started shaking his head in the direction of a "NO", this happens several times within a few pages. I asked what's the problem, his reply is "very seldom did he ever find reference to a bullet mold carried in the shooting pouch in all his years of research." He felt yes the mold and lead was there, but cached at camp, in the bedroll, pack or the haversack, not in the shooting bag. > >The reason you see them in the bags today (collections) is they where placed there years later to keep everything together my family or dealers, he said he had done the same thing himself for years. Now everyone sees them in the bag and now that's where they should be. > >Charlie brought up a good point, "why would you carry a mold and several pieces of lead bar (considering the weight) when you could have something useable like round ball - half the weight and half the bulk !" > >When you give this some thought and consider everything Charlie mentioned, many of us believe he's probably correct in his thinking on these two items. So, put the mold and lead bar in the bed roll, haversack, pack, etc. they wouldn't help in a fight or killing game, yes a valuable item, just stored in the wrong location. > > >Later, >Buck Conner >dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ >_____________________________________ >NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade >and early history of the times. AMM journal > >The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * >Conklin, MI 49403 >ATTN: Jon Link > >The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - >quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. >_____________________________________ > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 06 Aug 1999 19:45:43 -0700 Louis, I didn't mention a cow's knee, but if I'm going out for an extended time, I also carry one. As far as bullet molds, the quality of Rapine's can vary quite a bit. A friend of mine who is a dealer, bought a large number of them and some were perfect and some were pretty bad. Actually I have had better luck with the brass molds that Dixie sells. I am looking for someone who builds handforged bullet molds at a fairly reasonable price. Come to think of it , it wouldn't have to be real reasonable. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Ho the List, Lots of great stuff in this thread. Most everything mentioned seems pretty standard as they are requirements for shooting and cleaning any charcoal burner. One thing I carry that I have not seen mentioned is a cow's knee. I find that it is usually rainy here during muzzleloading elk season, especially in the Bayou Salade. I credit this item with more than one year of feasting on FAT COW. As of yet, I do not cast my own balls, but I can see the historical correctness and esthetic pleasure it must bring while yarnin around the fire. My question, are the Rapine molds the ones to buy, or are there better ones to be had? Thanks in advance, Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Farseer [SMTP:farseer@swbell.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 7:50 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: shooting bag > > This is a great thread!!!! Gotta admit, as a greenhorn, I'm still > picking > up on tips and tricks, and this has been fascinating. > > Todd > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 06 Aug 1999 18:47:00 -0700 (PDT) On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Chance Tiffie wrote: > I'm interested in finding out what the average number of beaver pelts taken > during the fall and spring hunts was, per trapper. What was considered a > poor year, and what was considered a good year? Was there a quota, that > company men were expected to meet? Any and all responses appreciated. Alexander Ross's Snake River Brigade of 1823-24 netted approximately 5000 beaver, using about 20 trappers, which more or less comes up to 250 beaver per trapper. If you figure they trapped for four months, it comes up to about 2 beaver per trapper per day. Some days were much better, some days the traps held only legs. While the whole outfit was comprised of 55 men, 24 wifes and 64 children, about half of the men were considered "untrustworthy" or "unsuitable" for trapping, and another portion of the "trustworthy" men were used to guard the camp and the horses. This was considered a very successful trip. Reference: Alexander Ross, Fur Hunters of the Far West Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glue stick Date: 06 Aug 1999 20:55:03 -0500 Bill, The recipe was published in the 1820's the ingredients were available lon= g before that. Earlier life experience and/or apprenticeship would likely = have caused one to carry the items he knew best how to work with. Each probab= ly had a few personal indispensables. In learning a trade they learned to use t= he tools of that trade to maximum benefit. A lot of trades knew a lot about= the uses and the formulation of many & various glues to specific purpose. On= e purpose is often good for another, many trades had similar formulations o= f varying names. It certainly could have been used by trappers to stick together all those little things that need sticking together. Repair of a stock before rawh= ide bandage, binding sinew into cord, holding leather together for stitching, sealing whatever. I can think of a lot of uses for someone who's only ho= me is the fire they're sitting at. Did everybody carry it? Probably not. Did some one carry some form of portable glue? Just as likely. How prevalent? Who knows? I've seen se= veral receipts over the years in relation to differing trades. Oxblood is a prime ingredient in coppersmith and other glue formulae. If= you happen to have any dead animal you have glue of several types available.=20 Simple to make around a campfire. What kind of glue would have been comm= on to your personae and whole life experience? That would be the one you'd be = most likely to work with. In the early nineteenth century folks knew a lot mo= re about making the things that eased & comforted their lives from the resou= rces available. They only spent real gold money, fur or metal, when there wa= s no other option. Its easy to spend funny money on foofaraw you don't really need. That's why we now only have funny money. The advantage of a mouth glue over just repackaging plain hide glue; is y= ou can wet it with saliva and use without having to bring it to the hotter temperature. =20 If you are making glue blocks by pouring out on tin it would be better to= coat the tin with beeswax rather than oil for less risk of spoiling the glue. I have other recipes for mouth/portable/& several other appellations for = glue; made usable without heating. I'm sort of keeping my eye out for where th= ey are. I'll let you know when I find where I put them. It's a matter as t= o which of the many and varied piles. Liquid hide glue is fairly easy to m= ake.=20 Franklin has eliminated the traditional, strong vinegar, aroma in their commercial offering. begin rant_________ Ain't got time to dig for recipes right now I'm rearranging a couple of hundred tons of dirt and rocks in the gully out back into a creek I hope will hel= p control erosion. Erosion has increased because the neighbors have lawns = not woods like the area was up till 30 or so years ago. Lawns are an abomination.=20 A complete waste of resources to grow what should at least be a food crop= for some critter on the planet. Instead fossil fuels, burned in stinky expen= sive machines, are wasted chopping it down. In the burbs people actually pay = money for a chemical company to come by with a tanker truck and hose down the p= lace, regularly, -- with a witch's brew of noxious and deadly chemicals. We ar= e a decadent society. Our forefathers would be appalled at our wastrel ways.= =20 Flowers and trees are beautiful, lawns are not. Fields of tall grass mak= e fine fodder for a mule that provides free non-toxic fertilizer to grow more. Zoning laws frown on mules here so I grow trees. Dad used to raise hogs in that= back holler. end rant______ If you are making up any glue which could conceivably stay in a possibles= sack for years it wouldn't hurt to add a little preservative. While the glue = is cooking float a bark-on-stick or two of willow in the glue. It helps kee= p the glue fresh over long storage. =20 If anyone is really interested I may have found a source for isinglass. =20 As to Lanney's ex-wife's cooking; perhaps her gravy could improve the biscuits modernist woodworkers are so fond of. Nothing else seems to. John... At 02:10 PM 8/6/99 -0600, you wrote: >John > >you lost me on all of the ingredients ? > >is this a fur trade item? > >would it or could it have been used by the trappers? > >your recipe looks good but is it something I would use in the field? > > > >I make hide glue sticks, much the same way as outlined in the original p= ost, >just dip a stick in warm glue, cool and redip.. I have never had a need for it >but they make interesting trinkets to give away ! > >Another method is to just pour warm glue on a piece of tin (with a light= oil >wiped on it) let cool and wrap up put in bag. > >Bill Klesinger >________________________________________________________________________= _ >Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of th= e >times, the one the American Mountain Men >read and write: > >The Tomahawk & Long Rifle >3483 Squires >Conklin, MI=A0 49403 >ATTN: Jon Link > >The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years.= Give >it a try, you'll blow that much in a couple of stops at 7-11 for junk fo= od. >________________________________________________________ > >John Kramer wrote: > >> An 1820's receipt. >> _______________________________________ >> "TO MAKE PORTABLE GLUE >> >> Take 1 lb of the best glue, boil and strain it very clear; boil likewi= se 4 >> oz. of isinglass, put it in a double glue-pot, with =BD lb. of fine br= own >> sugar, and boil it pretty thick; then pour it into moulds; when cold, = cut >> and dry them in small pieces.=A0 This glue is very useful to draughtsm= en, >> architects, etc., as it immediately dilutes in warm water, and fastens= the >> paper without the process of damping." >> ___________________________________________ >> >> This could also be called mouth glue.=A0=A0 Will fasten more than pape= r. >> >> John... >> >> At 07:48 PM 8/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >> >I took a 1/4" stick and dipped it in warm hide glue then lightly dust= ed >> >with powdered charcoal.=A0 Then I dipped it again and powdered again = and >> >so on and so on etc...etc.. >> >letting it dry partially after about 10 or so dippings.=A0 Build up a >> >large ball of the mixture so it looks like a mutated Q-tip.=A0 Let dr= y >> >completely.=A0 A large amount of shrinkage will occur.=A0 The charcoa= l adds >> >some tooth to the glue for adhesion.=A0 Simply place the glue stick i= n a >> >very small amount of warm water to reconstitute and use for minor glu= e >> >repairs. >> > >> Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >> John Kramer=A0 >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 06 Aug 1999 21:19:23 -0500 The rice thread leads to another.....rolled oats, crushed oats or ground oats, and oatmeal....How was it made..the rolled kind....I have a very old set of 'rolls' that mesh like five tooth gears and have almost zero clearance. I thought they were for crushing cane sorghum, but they are too close for even that. They were fitted with a hopper, and sit on rails, like over a barrel or bag. Date from just after Civil War...Found in Tennessee. Now, the Scottish were big on oats in the Carolina highlands, are these oat rolls?? Did the fur trade use 'oat' meal? Buck???????? Mike Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 06 Aug 1999 19:34:36 -0700 (PDT) On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Chance Tiffie wrote: > I'm interested in finding out what the average number of beaver pelts taken > during the fall and spring hunts was, per trapper. What was considered a > poor year, and what was considered a good year? Was there a quota, that > company men were expected to meet? Any and all responses appreciated. Peter Skene Ogden's 1825-26 expedtion. The party appears to number about 20 more men than Ross's 1823 expedition, or about 70 men, around 50 women, and Lord knows how many kids. The party also traded for beaver as they went, including the payment of some debts owed by former company men (read deserters), that they encountered along the way. Take was 2740 large beaver, 837 small beaver, 114 large Otter, 9 small Otter, 3 Misquash (whaterever the heck that is), and 12 Beaver coats (?) The calculator sez that a total of 3577 beaver were taken. Here, it gets shaky since we don't know who was doing what in the party... If we assume that about the same ratio of men trapped in this party as in Ross's party (about 36%), then that means that about 25 trappers took 3577 beaver. That makes about 143 beaver per man... or about 1.2 beaver per day per man if we assume the four month season. Thar' a lot of assumptions in there mind you. References: My notes say this came from the Oregon Historical Society Quarterly, Vol X.. that would be in the 1930's or so. Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Oatmeal Date: 07 Aug 1999 01:59:14 -0500 On the previous post about oats..my desire is to be able to 'roll my own', oats, that is....anyone who knows a reference, or how, holler, please! Mike Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (no subject) -- Oat rolls Date: 07 Aug 1999 09:17:49 EDT In a message dated 99-08-06 22:14:35 EDT, you write: << They were fitted with a hopper, and sit on rails, like over a barrel or bag. Date from just after Civil War...Found in Tennessee. >> Sounds like a good description of the rolls Grandad had. Pour the oats in the hopper, turn the crank & the rolled oats came out the bottom. We used to do this on a day with a light wind so the hulls would blow off to the side of the catch basket. The rolls were set up at about 3' off the ground & the catch basket was placed on the ground underneath leaving about 30" between for the wind to blow out the "chaff". We lost a small portion of the oats with the chaff, but that was better than hulls in the oats. The chickens appreciated oat rolling day, so the oats that missed the basket weren't wasted. Grandad also had a "burr mill" we used to grind our own "cream of wheat", corn meal & grits. He used an old steel wheel 4 wheel drive Massy Harris tractor from back in the '30's to power the mill -- IF he could get it started! That tractor was a real piece of work! It was designed to pull the origional M/H "combine". It was set up for remote controls so it could be opertated from the combine platform -- remote steering, clutch, throttle, & gear shifts. Wonder whatever happened to that old tractor. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting bag Date: 07 Aug 1999 09:23:37 -0400 And if you locate said maker of handforged bullet molds, please post it. Tom larry pendleton wrote: > Louis, > I didn't mention a cow's knee, but if I'm going out for an extended time, > I also carry one. > As far as bullet molds, the quality of Rapine's can vary quite a bit. A > friend of mine who is a dealer, bought a large number of them and some were > perfect and some were pretty bad. Actually I have had better luck with the > brass molds that Dixie sells. I am looking for someone who builds > handforged bullet molds at a fairly reasonable price. Come to think of it , > it wouldn't have to be real reasonable. > Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Date: 07 Aug 1999 08:30:38 -0700 -----Original Message----- >I am not able to connect to the History List for some reason. > >Would you kindly post the following for me. > >Paul Jones has a substantial collection of buckskinning magazines for sale >to the highest bidder(s) You can make an offer on some or all of what he >has. He has THE BUCKSKIN REPORT (June 77 through 86--when it "went under"), >MUZZLELOADER (84 through 97). Not all the issues, but most. He also has >some 1980's issues of THE BACKWOODSMAN and a number of the early issues of >THE TOMAHAWK & LONGRIFLE available. If interested, contact him at >pwjones@excelonline.com and he will send you a complete listing as to >whatever you may be interested in obtaining. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: moose milk Date: 07 Aug 1999 11:25:41 -0700 Most people should be able to get moose milk at any place that has machine shop tools, lathe, milling machine, end mills. Most factorys, or machine shops have some. It`s the white liquid used to cool and lube the machines as they cut, drill, grind ect. It is an oil that is water solible, will mix with water. My employer uses an oil that is "brand name" J-sol You will be surprised how long a qt. will last you. Also ask for the mixing ratio for water to oil. Keep a close friendship with the machanics or maintance people you work with. a deer steak or two will get lots of usful things John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 06, 1999 2:44 PM > I found Moose Milk at a sutler by the name of Otter, out of Oregon IIRC. I > think he does do Friendship, so that mighta been him. Some guys on the list > will freak when I mention this BUT... Macs Radiator Lube as recommended by > someone else on the list last year DOES work great. Lotsa shots between > swabs, and a perfectly clean barrel after a swab with the stuff and a water > rinse. Its milky white, and sure looks like Moose Milk to me. Barn. > > "It's too bad youth is wasted on the young" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 07 Aug 1999 12:49:18 EDT 24 wifes? All of mixed blood or indain, some have said on this list? Seems doutful. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 07 Aug 1999 12:52:20 EDT "Beaver coats" is a term still used today. It refers to a really large beaver. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moose milk Date: 07 Aug 1999 11:10:14 -0700 The original "Moose Milk" was more involved than what has been mentioned, "Powder Hawk" Trustem now in IA (seen on this list at times)produced a product called "Powderhawk"s Pride" that was from the original recipe of Don Davis when he was shooting and winning everything at Friendship in the '50's. Curly G. and Charley H. got the recipe from Don. Hawk and several of us where at the Museum of the Fur Trade, helping with some project Charley had, and he gave the recipe to Hawk to reproduce. If Hawk is listing lets hear how far off these ideas are. .................................. > Most people should be able to get moose milk at any place > that has machine shop tools, lathe, milling machine, end > mills. Most factorys, or machine shops have some. My > employer uses an oil that is "brand name" J-sol You > will be surprised how long a qt. will last you. .................................. > Macs Radiator Lube as recommended > by someone else on the list last year DOES work great. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo dung in tobacco Date: 07 Aug 1999 12:30:14 -0600 A while back there was discussion on what was added to tobacco. I finally had some time to look in some books of mine. George Catlin, noted, "the use of finely pulverized buffalo dung, used by all Indian Epicures in smoking, to facilitate the lighting of the pipe. The Indians, who have now lucifer matches, generally light their pipes with flint and steel; and the pipe being charged with k'nick-k'neck, a small quantity of the buffalo dung is placed on top, which like tinder, catches the spark an comunicates it rapidly to the k'nick-k'neck, and as they all contend, gives to the fumes an agreeable flavour." Indian art in pipestone, by John Ewers I have seen several examples of using a circle of buffalo dung for an altar for pipe. some are wrapped in intestine and rubbed with red ochre or vermillion. Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 07 Aug 1999 13:08:12 PDT Lee, Thanks for you great response!! I have done some calculating of my own over the last few months, and had set the numbers at 80 per man for a poor season and 120 per man for an exceptional season. Of course most of my information was based on the later years of the rendezvous era of the fur trade. As furs were trapped more often than they were traded for, and beaver became more scarce, the take was reduced. Whether or not these numbers are accurate, I have no way of knowing, but the information you posted helps. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred A. Miller Subject: MtMan-List: REMOVE Date: 07 Aug 1999 17:51:55 -0400 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moose milk Date: 07 Aug 1999 18:57:09 -0700 Buck, The formula we use for moose milk is as follows : 1 qt. 409 household cleaner 6 to 12 ounces of water soluable oil I cup household amonia [ optional, I don't like to use it. ] Pour the above ingredients in a clean plastic jug and finish filling it with water. [ You'll need to only partially fill with water and then shake it to dissolve the water soluable oil. Then finish filling with water. ] If you're going to use a solvent this is a pretty good one. Without the amonia it's about as mild as you can get. I personally prefer to use just plain water to clean my gun as our forefathers did. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >The original "Moose Milk" was more involved than what has been mentioned, "Powder Hawk" Trustem now in IA (seen on this list at times)produced a product called "Powderhawk"s Pride" that was from the original recipe of Don Davis when he was shooting and winning everything at Friendship in the '50's. Curly G. and Charley H. got the recipe from Don. > >Hawk and several of us where at the Museum of the Fur Trade, helping with some project Charley had, and he gave the recipe to Hawk to reproduce. > >If Hawk is listing lets hear how far off these ideas are. > >.................................. >> Most people should be able to get moose milk at any place >> that has machine shop tools, lathe, milling machine, end > mills. Most factorys, or machine shops have some. My >> employer uses an oil that is "brand name" J-sol You >> will be surprised how long a qt. will last you. >.................................. > >> Macs Radiator Lube as recommended >> by someone else on the list last year DOES work great. > >Later, >Buck Conner >dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ >_____________________________________ >NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade >and early history of the times. AMM journal > >The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * >Conklin, MI 49403 >ATTN: Jon Link > >The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - >quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. >_____________________________________ > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: MtMan-List: Was moosemilk now cleaning solution Date: 07 Aug 1999 19:37:03 -0700 > If you're going to use a solvent this is a pretty good one. Without the > amonia it's about as mild as you can get. I personally prefer to use just > plain water to clean my gun as our forefathers did. I mix: 1/3 Murphy's oil soap 1/3 glass plus (ammonia-free window cleaner) 1/3 water This is a great black powder solvent and is truly friendly to steel. I tested it by putting an 8-penny nail in the mixture for a week, and there was no sign of corrosion at all. I put other nails in each separate ingredient of the mixture for the same length of time. The nails that were placed in the water and the glass plus were both corroded badly. The Murphy's oil soap must be the protecting agent in this mixture because the nail that was placed in it was also free of corrosion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moose milk Date: 08 Aug 1999 12:39:02 -0700 > On Sat, 07 August 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > The original "Moose Milk" was more involved than what has > been mentioned, "Powder Hawk" Trustem now in IA (seen on this > list at times)produced a product called "Powderhawk"s Pride" > that was like the original recipe of Don Davis when he was > shooting and winning everything at Friendship............ Buck, I think the patch lube/cleaner that Hawk made "Powerhawks Pride" was a little different than the original "Moose Milk". It seemed to let you get more shots between cleaning because it self cleaned with each shot. I still have a little left from the Gun Shop in Ft.Collins, I think they we're telling customers it was the same as Davis' "Moose Milk" ! Keep your weapon clean. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oatmeal Date: 08 Aug 1999 12:46:19 -0700 > On Fri, 06 August 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > On the previous post about oats..my desire is to be able to >'roll my own', oats, that is....anyone who knows a reference, > or how, holler, please! > > Mike Rock Mike, I called Buck's house this morning, his wife said he got called into work, so I grabbed what was on his web site under: CEREALS AND MEALS blue corn meal, blended meal, barley grits, rye-rolled, corn grits, oats-rolled, oats-steel cut, wheat-coarse, corn meal, millet meal. Nothing shown for oat meal, but does show oats-rolled, oats-steel, I'll try him later to night. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mkDragon Subject: MtMan-List: nuff said Date: 08 Aug 1999 14:13:01 -0700 > > Darwin Awards > The Darwin nominees are in again. (This is the award bestowed upon > the > people who have helpfully removed themselves from the gene pool by their own efforts. > NOMINEE No. 6: [The Indianapolis Star]: A cigarette lighter may have > trig- > gered a fatal explosion. A Jay County man, using a lighter to check > the > barrel of a muzzleloader, was killed when the weapon discharged in > his > face. > Sheriff investigators said Gregory David Pryor died in his parents' > rural Dunkirk home while cleaning a 54-caliber muzzleloader that had > not > been firing properly. He was using the lighter to look into the > barrel > when the > gunpowder ignited. Butch -- Sometimes the need to mess with their heads outweighs the millstone of humiliation. -Fox Mulder ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: gun document "off topic" Date: 08 Aug 1999 13:23:28 -0700 Fellow list members; The recent burglary of a coworkers home in which several guns were stolen prompted me to make a document of information about my guns. He didn`t have serial numbers or good identification on his stolen guns. They are probably unrecoverable. This document is intended for the owners information. Upon a theft it could be given to law enforcement officials, along with a picture stapled to it for hopeful recovery. If people are interested in it I could send as an attachment and you can print as many copies as are needed. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 08 Aug 1999 18:04:38 EDT A correction from my response earlier. A coat beaver was not a very large beaver, they are referred to as blankets. A coat is fur that is less than prime. Sorry I gave the bad infro. Getting older I guess. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 08 Aug 1999 18:45:11 EDT Trap'r, Welcome to the ranks of those of us ENTITLED to have a 'Senior Moment' every now and then Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Cover Date: 08 Aug 1999 21:16:55 -0400 After searching the E-mail archives, my meager library, and a few other sources and coming up empty, I pose this question: Is there any correct style, construction, color, etc for a gun cover made from a wool blanket, or is this something that has too many possible variations to be wrong. I suspect there are probably no originals around to see. Any ideas or thoughts before I put the knife to this old moth-eaten dirty red blanket? Thanx, Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reworked Raphine Date: 08 Aug 1999 20:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Dennis, Don't know if you would want to sell it, but I have been looking for a good .600 Raphine. If not, maybe I could locate a .570 to trade you. Either e-mail me or call me at home at (805) 581-4717. Thanks, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ > BTW. I have a nice reworked .600 Rapine that I want to trade for a .570.. Can't hardly beat them damned .600's in the rifle-gun.....Right tight fit though... >D > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: musquash, misquash.etc Date: 08 Aug 1999 22:53:13 -0500 musquash, misquash = muskrats ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial Reenactment Date: 09 Aug 1999 01:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Is anything like this remotely possible? Are any of the 500 or so active AMM brothers exploring this? Maybe give guided tours of the most important sections of the trails? Are any of the trails currently marked in any manner? C-SPAN is currently doing a series on The 41 U.S. Presidents - travelling to all the historic places associated with each - interviewing their descendants - having historical scholars answer phoned-in questions. Maybe C-SPAN and the AMM could work together on something similar for the Corps of Discovery Bicentennial? Can't think of another group that has any more practical experience and knowledge of these events than those on this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 02:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Heard a man in Montana say the other day that in 40 years of trapping he has only snared 3 wolverines - extremely cunning animals. Also heard a Sami reindeer herder (the Sami are the Aborigines of the northernmost regions of Norway, Sweden, and Finland) say that the wolverine is the only animal that will torture its prey before it dies - by severing the neck tendons leading to a slow death several days later. He also said that a wolverine can wipe out a herd - extremely ferocious critter. The most ferocious animal pound per pound of any animal? That being said - are there any fur trade era or modern day experiences of the camp to back these stories up? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Frontier Periods Date: 09 Aug 1999 02:32:35 -0400 (EDT) About 22 years ago, on an old American Sportsman program, heard a possible AMM member once refer to "The Appalachian Mountain Frontier Period", which preceded the "Rocky Mountain Frontier Period" (1805-1850). Guesstimate that the former would be from 1750-1820???. Any comments or insight would be appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Frontier Periods Date: 09 Aug 1999 04:20:23 -0700 On Sun, 08 August 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > About 22 years ago, on an old American Sportsman program, heard a > possible AMM member once refer to "The Appalachian Mountain Frontier > Period", which preceded the "Rocky Mountain Frontier Period" > (1805-1850). Guesstimate that the former would be from 1750-1820???. > Any comments or insight would be appreciated. ................................... I have read of the western frontier(nw PA into OH) before and after the Rev. War period, see last sentence below. After the Paoli Massacre, General Anthony Wayne aquired a new name (Mad Anthony Wayne), many say this came about for the action he took in fighting the British at Germantown, PA., where he found them sleeping and burned them alive, those coming out of the fire were shot (some believe this was an attempt at getting even after the Paoli affair). I read one account that after the Germantown fight, General Washington sent Wayne and his men to the western frontier (NW PA.). He was now not to be considered a Gentlemen for his actions in war ! Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: musquash, misquash.etc Date: 09 Aug 1999 06:44:38 -0500 Exactly right. The Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary has this entry: MUS'QUASH, n. An American animal of the murine genus, the Muz = zibethicus. It has a compressed, lanceolated tail, with toes separate. = It has the smell of musk in summer, but loses it in winter. The fur is = used by hatters. Its popular name in America is musquash. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 10:53 PM > musquash, misquash =3D muskrats >=20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 08:31:35 -0400 > - extremely ferocious critter. The >most ferocious animal pound per pound of any animal? No documentation, but everything I have ever heard or read said that the Wolverine was by far the most ferocious critter in the woods, bar none. Reports of Grizzs even backing down from a Wolverine were not exaggerated, I am told. My grandfather told me a story that in about 1910 or so, he and some friends were up in the "North Woods" (didn't say where, and I never thought to ask... I was about 8 when he told me) and heard a heck of a commotion... Turned out that apparently a Wolverine wanted some of what the "Bear" had killed... Bear was not to anxious to give up its kill and the Wolverine was tenacious enough to keep at it, and finally after a few rushing in attackes, the bear ran off... Would have loved to have seen that.... Ad Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 06:57:59 -0700 On Mon, 09 August 1999, ad.miller@mindspring.com wrote: > > > > - extremely ferocious critter. The > >most ferocious animal pound per pound of any animal? .............................. I saw a Nat.Geo. series from the '50's that showed a wolverine and a grizzly bear on a trail, the bear was coming down and turned around and went up the bank to let the wolverine pass. According to ? Burnman (can't remember first name) one of the brothers that made all the bear movies in Yellowstone, this wasn't uncommon for any animal to step aside to a wolverine. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 08:57:12 -0600 Based on my wildlife degree and nine years with the Game and Fish and dealing with trappers each year, although wolverine are protected in Wyoming, I would say there is little evidence of wolverines wiping out any herd. They are opportunists and will eat rodents, larvae, eggs, berries and anything else that is easy to obtain, That is why they have a reputation of robbing traps and food caches of trappers and hunters. They are rare in the lower 48. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 08:03:43 -0700 > On Mon, 09 August 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > On Mon, 09 August 1999, ad.miller@mindspring.com wrote: > > > > > - extremely ferocious critter. The > > >most ferocious animal pound per pound of any animal? > .............................. > I saw a Nat.Geo. series from the '50's that showed a wolverine and a grizzly bear on a trail, the bear was coming down and turned around and went up the bank to let the wolverine pass. According to ? Burnman (can't remember first name) one of the brothers that made all the bear movies in Yellowstone, this wasn't uncommon for any animal to step aside to a wolverine. > > > Later, > Buck Conner Another story of wolverines: The guy that sit next to me at work just told me about a story he had just read in one of the hunting magazines. Two professional trappers in the NW one season had problems with a wolverine that moved into their territory. The wolverine would take their food, no matter where the it was cached (even from a tree - hanging on a rope 20' in the air with no limbs for 12' off the ground and wrapped in barbed wire). He climbed another tree then jumed from it into the cach tree. Finally mid season the situtation is so bad the trappers agree everything they could do in trying to trap, kill or out whit the wolverine has failed, he has won and they are down to their last cache of food. The final straw that broke them, the wolverine gets into the last cache in their cabin and eats a little and sprays on the rest. The trappers get to Nome, starved and worn down from the experience of one wolverine. Sounds like wolverines are hell on wheels. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 09:04:08 -0600 Another wide spread story about wolverines. A 45 to 60 lb wolverine would not and could not run off a 500 to 700 lb grizzly or Blk bear if the bear wanted the carcass. If the bear found a carcass being fed on by a wolverine, he may decide the effort of fighting the wolverine vs an extra meal is not worth it. Only if the bear was already fed. Of course there are always exception, especially with younger bears. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oatmeal Date: 09 Aug 1999 08:19:30 -0700 On Sun, 08 August 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > On Fri, 06 August 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > > On the previous post about oats..my desire is to be able to > >'roll my own', oats, that is....anyone who knows a reference, > > or how, holler, please! > > > > Mike Rock > > > Mike, > I called Buck's house this morning, his wife said he got called into work, so I grabbed what was on his web site under: > > CEREALS AND MEALS > blue corn meal, > blended meal, > barley grits, > rye-rolled, > corn grits, > oats-rolled, > oats-steel cut, > wheat-coarse, > corn meal, > millet meal. > > Nothing shown for oat meal, but does show oats-rolled, oats-steel, I'll try him later to night. > > Turtle. > ...................................... Mike and Turtle, What Turtle has shown; is the most common reference found from supply and trade lists; 1750 Pennsylvania German for steel-cut oats, and 1820 northeast lists for rolled oats. Earlier dates have been found on a few lists, but not enough reference to say it was a commonly traded grain. This is not surprising as record keeping was not kept as accurately as in later years when competition had become a factor. When you look at either; steel-cut or rolled oats when boiled, they both look close to a course oat meal, this is probably what you may want Mike. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oatmeal Date: 09 Aug 1999 08:19:30 -0700 On Sun, 08 August 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > On Fri, 06 August 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > > On the previous post about oats..my desire is to be able to > >'roll my own', oats, that is....anyone who knows a reference, > > or how, holler, please! > > > > Mike Rock > > > Mike, > I called Buck's house this morning, his wife said he got called into work, so I grabbed what was on his web site under: > > CEREALS AND MEALS > blue corn meal, > blended meal, > barley grits, > rye-rolled, > corn grits, > oats-rolled, > oats-steel cut, > wheat-coarse, > corn meal, > millet meal. > > Nothing shown for oat meal, but does show oats-rolled, oats-steel, I'll try him later to night. > > Turtle. > ...................................... Mike and Turtle, What Turtle has shown; is the most common reference found from supply and trade lists; 1750 Pennsylvania German for steel-cut oats, and 1820 northeast lists for rolled oats. Earlier dates have been found on a few lists, but not enough reference to say it was a commonly traded grain. This is not surprising as record keeping was not kept as accurately as in later years when competition had become a factor. When you look at either; steel-cut or rolled oats when boiled, they both look close to a course oat meal, this is probably what you may want Mike. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 09 Aug 1999 09:56:04 -0600 Lee Newbill wrote: >[Peter Skene Ogden's party's] take was 2740 large beaver, 837 small beaver, 114 large Otter, 9 small >Otter, 3 Misquash (whaterever the heck that is), and 12 Beaver coats (?) Musquash is the old Canadian term for muskrat, used as far back as 1680, according to the_Dictionary of Canadianisms_--I've also seen it in many fur trade journals. Also according to _Canadianisms_, a beaver coat is a coat "made from 5-8 prime beaver skins, from which the guard hairs had been removed, sewn together to make a robe, worn by the Indians with the fur next to the body". In case someone actually meant to write "Beaver, coats" instead of "Beaver coats", I should add that "coat beaver" are the skins which were used in such a coat . Somewhere, I read (or was told) the following : The coat was made with the guard hairs still on, and they wore off during the winter. This made the coat beaver skins more valuable, since the hatters didn't have to remove the guard hairs before making felt. The beaver coats would be purchased in early spring, before the fur brigades left for the east; since it was still pretty chilly, the Natives needed warm clothing to replace the coats, which started the trade in blankets and capots. At some point, the Europeans invented a process which enabled the guard hairs to be removed quickly and easily , and coat beaver was no longer as desirable. Beaver furs that were not made into coats, but instead prepared in the traditional manner by stretching & drying, were called parchment beaver. I wish I could cite sources for this info, but I absorbed it so long ago that I don't remember where it came from, and so it might be wrong. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 09 Aug 1999 12:08:50 EDT Don't want to argue, but I sell my beaver in Canada and the auction house, North American Fur Exchange, formally Hudson Bay Co. if you go back far enough, grade the nonprime fur as coats. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glue stick Date: 09 Aug 1999 12:18:35 EDT << I'SINGLASS, n. i'zinglass. [that is, ise or ice-glass.] A substance consisting chiefly of gelatin, of a firm texture and whitish color, prepared from the sounds or air-bladders of certain fresh water fishes, particularly of the huso, a fish of the sturgeon kind, found in the rivers of Russia. It is used as an agglutinant and in fining wines. I wonder what available substance would substitute? >> I believe you can still buy it at wine and beer maker shops. It is still used to clarify wine and beer. So you may not need a substitute. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial Reenactment Date: 09 Aug 1999 12:00:11 -0700 > On Sun, 08 August 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > Is anything like this remotely possible? > > Are any of the 500 or so active AMM brothers exploring this? Maybe give > guided tours of the most important sections of the trails? Are any of > the trails currently marked in any manner? > > C-SPAN is currently doing a series on The 41 U.S. Presidents - > travelling to all the historic places associated with each - > interviewing their descendants - having historical scholars answer > phoned-in questions. Maybe C-SPAN and the AMM could work together on > something similar for the Corps of Discovery Bicentennial? > > Can't think of another group that has any more practical experience and > knowledge of these events than those on this list. ........................................................ Jon, Many of the AMM members, as well as other groups and individuals have traveled in the footsteps of the "Corps of Discovery". Some write about their travels, other just talk about their experiences among friends and at party encampments. I'm an AMM member, but have never traveled as a group with the AMM members on these trails. But as a member of a small group of adventures have traveled from Ft. Benton MT to Ft. de Chartres ILL and all points in between. Then in another group years before have traveled from Phila. PA to Ft. Osage, both groups where doing apprx. 1805-1810 time periods, equipage, food, etc. This has taken myself a 30 year period of a few weeks to a month at a time compared to the couple of years of the original adventure. There are several that have done the whole experience from sea to shinging sea in following in the footsteps of L&C or other greats. Have talked to several new groups wanting to start the same trips and have contacted myself and others for advice and what to expect; as original routes have changed in varoius places with river and Corp of Engineer changes, as well as private land and gaining access from owners. Myself I need to do the Columbia River to the coast to have completed the total experience, really don't know if that will ever happen as job, home and age makes a big difference with every year that passes. God Bless anyone following in our forefathers footsteps whether it's Lewis & Clark or another traveler of the past. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial Reenactment Date: 09 Aug 1999 13:41:07 -0700 Jon, I have traveled about 700 miles of the L&C trail by canoe. I have done this in 4 different trips. Work and family only allows for 1 -2 week excursions. I did drive the L & C trail from Ft Benton, MT after completeing a 150 mile canoe trip. It was amazing to see the terrain which my heroes covered. Ft Clatsop was an inspiration to see. There were mostly AMM members, or prospects on these trips. I study the Corps of discovery, but don't feel like an authority. I wish I were independently wealthy , so i could spend as much time as I wanted giving guided tours of the L & C trail. I always can look forward to retirement, but am afraid I won't have what it takes physically to make true my dreams of today. I do what I can now, so I won't say later..."I should have done that....". Much of the roadside part of the trail is marked. The river is just river, you have to know what has transpired there. I just returned from a canoe trip on the lower 100 miles of the Yellowstone River, ending at the confluence of the Missouri river. Interestingly my trip clock showed 1,806 miles home from Ft Union. 1806 was the year that Clark explored the Yellowstone. We do what we can to keep the memory , and the dream, alive. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial Reenactment Date: 09 Aug 1999 16:39:39 -0600 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial = Reenactment Randy - We have be canoeing the Missouri. Would be interested in your = trip on the Yellowstone. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants randybublitz wrote: >Jon, I have traveled about 700 miles of the L&C trail by canoe. I have >done this in 4 different trips. Work and family only allows for 1 -2 >week excursions. I did drive the L & C trail from Ft Benton, MT after >completeing a 150 mile canoe trip. It was amazing to see the terrain >which my heroes covered. Ft Clatsop was an inspiration to see. There >were mostly AMM members, or prospects on these trips. I study the Corps >of discovery, but don't feel like an authority. I wish I were >independently wealthy , so i could spend as much time as I wanted giving >guided tours of the L & C trail. I always can look forward to >retirement, but am afraid I won't have what it takes physically to make >true my dreams of today. I do what I can now, so I won't say later..."I >should have done that....". Much of the roadside part of the trail is >marked. The river is just river, you have to know what has transpired >there. I just returned from a canoe trip on the lower 100 miles of the >Yellowstone River, ending at the confluence of the Missouri river. = >Interestingly my trip clock showed 1,806 miles home from Ft Union. 1806 >was the year that Clark explored the Yellowstone. We do what we can to >keep the memory , and the dream, alive. Hardtack = > > = > = > = >Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give >up your Rights > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id ADCC56900B6; Mon, 09 Aug 1999 14:45:00 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 11DwHO-000737-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:44:22 -0600 > Received: from [205.231.101.196] (helo=3Dm8.boston.juno.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 11DwHL-00072m-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:44:19 -0600 > Received: (from randybublitz@juno.com) > by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EHLXCLNC; Mon, 09 Aug 1999 16:39:= 46 EDT > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 13:41:07 -0700 > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial Reenactment > Message-ID: <19990809.134107.-880051.0.randybublitz@juno.com> > X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 > X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 17-18,23 > X-Juno-Att: 0 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: randybublitz@juno.com > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1372 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 18:21:49 -0500 Reminds me of a story my grandpappy used to tell me about how when he was trapping wolverines, a particularly sly one discovered that when caught in the trap, it was able to unscrew the nuts on the base of the Newhouse traps and get free. After carefully thinking the situation over he sent a request to the company to get a half dozen traps made with left hand threads on the jaw posts. Never had that problem again. Tony Clark -----Original Message----- Heard a man in Montana say the other day that in 40 years of trapping he has only snared 3 wolverines - extremely cunning animals. Also heard a Sami reindeer herder (the Sami are the Aborigines of the northernmost regions of Norway, Sweden, and Finland) say that the wolverine is the only animal that will torture its prey before it dies - by severing the neck tendons leading to a slow death several days later. He also said that a wolverine can wipe out a herd - extremely ferocious critter. The most ferocious animal pound per pound of any animal? That being said - are there any fur trade era or modern day experiences of the camp to back these stories up? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: Hello the list... off topic Date: 09 Aug 1999 18:36:18 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE296.120F0AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ladies, gentlemen and brothers: I have a favor to ask. My boy is = currently serving with the military in the army medical corps. stationed = in Cosivo. He called last night and is very depressed with the = situation there. Wounded, dying etc. I am putting together a 'care = package' of sorts and would like to include some jokes to cheer the = troops. If you have any lying around that you have found funny [racy or = clean] please email them to me at stitchin@techullogy.com Thanks for = your time and any help. Long John ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE296.120F0AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  Ladies, gentlemen and = brothers: I=20 have a favor to ask. My boy is currently serving with the military in = the army=20 medical corps. stationed in Cosivo.  He called last night and is = very=20 depressed with the situation there. Wounded, dying etc. I am putting = together a=20 'care package' of sorts and would like to include some jokes to cheer = the=20 troops.  If you have any lying around that you have found funny = [racy or=20 clean] please email them to me at stitchin@techullogy.com =  =20 Thanks for your time and any help. Long John
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEE296.120F0AA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 17:53:23 -0600 Taken from "Journal of a Trapper" By Osborne Russell THE WOLVERINE, CARCAJOU OR GLUTTON This Species of animals is very numerous in the Rocky Mountains and very mischievous and annoying to the Hunters They often get into the traps setting for Beaver or searching out the deposits of meat which the weary hunter has made during a toilsome days hunt among mountains too rugged and remote for him to bear the reward of his labors to the place of Encampment, and when finding these deposits the Carcajou carries off all or as much of the contents as he is able secreting it in different places among the snow rocks or bushes in such a manner that it is very difficult for man or beast to find it. The avaricious disposition of this animal has given rise to the name of Glutton by Naturalists who suppose that it devours so much at a time as to render it stupid and incapable of moving or running about but I have never seen an instance of this Kind on the contrary I have seen them quite expert and nimble immediately after having carreyd away 4 or 5 times their weight in meat. I have good reason to believe that the Carcajou's appetite is easily satisfied upon meat freshly killed but after it becomes putrid it may become more Voracious but I never saw one myself or a person who had seen one in a stupid dormant state caused by Gluttony altho I have often wished it were the case The body is thick and long the legs short, the feet and Claws are longer in proportion than those of the Black bear which it very much resembles. with the exception of its tail which is 12 inches long and bushy. Its body is about 3 ft long and stands fifteen inches high its colour is black except along the sides which are of a dirty white or light brown - Its movements are somewhat quicker than those of the Bear and it climbs trees with ease. I have never known either by experience or information the Carcajou to prey upon animals of its own killing larger than very young fawns or lambs altho. it has been described by Naturalists and generally believed that it climbs trees and leaps down upon Elk Deer and other large animals and clings to their back till it kills them in spite of their efforts to get rid of it by speed or resistance but we need go no further than the formation of the animal to prove those statements erroneous. Its body legs feet and mouth are shaped similarly to the Black Bear as has been already stated but its claws are somewhat longer and straighter in proportion and like the Bear its claws are somewhat blunted at the points which would render it impossible for them to cling to the back of an Elk or Deer while running. I do not pretend to say however what may be its habits in other countries I only write from Experience. They do not den up like the Bear in winter but ramble about the streams among the high mountains where they find springs open - its hair is 3 inches long and in the Summer is coarse like the Bear but in winter it is near as fine as that of the Red Fox The female brings forth its young in April and generally brings two at a birth -----Original Message----- Heard a man in Montana say the other day that in 40 years of trapping he has only snared 3 wolverines - extremely cunning animals. Also heard a Sami reindeer herder (the Sami are the Aborigines of the northernmost regions of Norway, Sweden, and Finland) say that the wolverine is the only animal that will torture its prey before it dies - by severing the neck tendons leading to a slow death several days later. He also said that a wolverine can wipe out a herd - extremely ferocious critter. The most ferocious animal pound per pound of any animal? That being said - are there any fur trade era or modern day experiences of the camp to back these stories up? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial Reenactment Date: 09 Aug 1999 20:27:09 EDT In a message dated 8/8/99 10:59:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net writes: << Is anything like this remotely possible? >> There is a re-enactment scheduled to start in 2004 that will run from one end of the country to the other keeping as close to the timeline as possible. things the last I heard were getting out of hand with a bunch of rich (so & so's) taking over and really getting things screwed up so as to make sure all the publicity lands in thier direction. I was giving serious thought to getting involved but at this time I'm not too sure I want to. When I get more details on this event I will pass them on. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial Reenactment Date: 09 Aug 1999 17:46:17 -0700 On Mon, 09 August 1999, LODGEPOLE@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 8/8/99 10:59:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net writes: > > << Is anything like this remotely possible? >> > There is a re-enactment scheduled to start in 2004 that will run from one end > of the country to the other keeping as close to the timeline as possible. > things the last I heard were getting out of hand with a bunch of rich (so & > so's) taking over and really getting things screwed up so as to make sure all > the publicity lands in thier direction. I was giving serious thought to > getting involved but at this time I'm not too sure I want to. When I get > more details on this event I will pass them on. > > Longshot ________________________________________ I have done the Phila. Pa. up to the Great Lakes and over to the head waters of the Mississippi with a group of about 20, that many years ago - that's when Buck Conner was young, maybe it was longer ! Have done parts of the Upper Missouri, and like others need to get back at it, the sooner the netter. Like Longshot said I was contacted about the doin's in 2004, then here comes some "hi-rollers" and they are trying to suck up all the credit that everyone else is working toward. It's not so much credit per say, it was to be a large group effort and now it's stalled because of a few. ___________________________________ Take care, folks D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + "One who favors the finer things in life" ___________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Frontier Periods Date: 09 Aug 1999 17:48:41 -0700 On Sun, 08 August 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > About 22 years ago, on an old American Sportsman program, heard a > possible AMM member once refer to "The Appalachian Mountain Frontier > Period", which preceded the "Rocky Mountain Frontier Period" > (1805-1850). Guesstimate that the former would be from 1750-1820???. > Any comments or insight would be appreciated. I have heard as someone said, "western frontier" was nw Pa, and se Ohio during the Rev War, that would fit the time frame mentioned. ___________________________________ Take care, folks D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + "One who favors the finer things in life" ___________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Keith and Linda Lawyer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 20:10:36 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------65EAAA2991B89128A1B92F32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The most ferocious mammal in North America pound for pound is the shrew. --------------65EAAA2991B89128A1B92F32 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="lmlawyer.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Keith and Linda Lawyer Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="lmlawyer.vcf" begin:vcard n:Lawyer;Keith & Linda x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:lmlawyer@disd.net x-mozilla-cpt:;-1 fn:The Lawyers in Denison, Texas end:vcard --------------65EAAA2991B89128A1B92F32-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 09 Aug 1999 19:54:57 -0600 I felt badly about not having sources for my posting on "coat beaver" and "beaver coats". A dip into my library has turned up the following sources, which confirm what I was saying earlier. pp. 76-77, Arthur Ray. "When Two Worlds Met", in _The Illustrated History of Canada_, 1st ed., pp. 16-104, Craig Brown (ed.). Lester & Orpen Dennys : Toronto, 1987. Ray writes, "Two types of beaver pelts were bought from Indians - coat beaver, called 'castor gras' [greasy beaver] by the French, and parchment beaver, or 'castor sec' [dry beaver]. In the sixteenth century, only the Russians had mastered the technique of extracting the long guard hairs from parchment beaver pelts so the under-wool could be separated from the skin...Coat beaver, on the other hand, was second-hand, already worn by the Indians as winter coats. In the course of wearing the furs with the hair side turned inward, and scarping and rubbing them with animal marrow to oil and soften them, the Indians had worn off the guard hairs. The under-wool could now be easily removed from the skins, which meant the pelts could be processed directly by western European feltmakers... By the end of the eighteenth century, western European feltmakers had learned the Russian secret and parchment beaver became the preferred pelt because it was of more even quality than coat beaver. By the middle of the nineteenth century coat beaver was no longer in much demand..." You can find much of the same information in: p. 14, Harold A. Innis. _The Fur Trade in Canada_ University of Toronto Press : Toronto, 1999. Reprint of 1956 edition, with revised foreword from 1962 edition, and a new introductory essay for 1999 by Arthur Ray. pp. 8-9, Daniel A. Francis & Toby Morantz. _Partners in Furs : A History of the Fur Trade in Eastern James Bay_. McGill-Queen's University Press : Montreal, 1983 Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 21:08:32 -0500 I thought it was the Ant Lion...you know, the doodle-bug. ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 8:10 PM > The most ferocious mammal in North America pound for pound is the = shrew. >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mkDragon Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 19:33:32 -0700 Sounds like wolverines are hell on wheels. Buck, you got that right. Take a look at a cache the way they are built in Alaska sometime. They are built that way more to keep wolverines out than bears. This is not easy to do. I would bet you that, pound for pound, wolverines are stronger than even the biggest griz, and they have NO fear of anything on this earth. It is no wonder that a bear will step aside for a wolverine. Take about 50 lbs of pure muscle, bone, teeth, claws and a real bad attitude and there is a wolverine. They can tear up a cabin worse than any bear. I wouldn't even *think* of trying to trap a wolverine with anything short of logging chains and dynamite. A wolverine would be the first to chew off a foot and go its merry way, only meaner than before. I've only seen them at a distance, except in a zoo and I guarantee you I'd step aside! Say, about half a mile aside. I'd take a sow griz with a sore paw any day! Am I a coward? Wanna see my card? :) Butch -- Sometimes the need to mess with their heads outweighs the millstone of humiliation. -Fox Mulder ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: more on wolverine/glutton Date: 09 Aug 1999 21:48:12 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEE2B0.E0A0AB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The notion that a wolverine drops onto its prey from tree limbs is not = new. Here are three entries in the 1828 Webster's dictionary. ymos Lanney R GLUT'TON, n. glut'n. [Low L. gluto.] One who indulges to excess in = eating. 1. One eager of any thing to excess. Gluttons in murder, wanton to destroy. 2. In zoology, an animal of the genus Ursus, found in the N. of Europe = and Siberia. It grows to the length of three feet,but has short legs and = moves slowly. It is a carnivorous animal, and in order to catch its = prey, it climbs a tree and from that darts down upon a deer or other = animal. It is names from its voracious appetite. CARCAJO, n. The glutton, a voracious carnivorous animal. WOLVERIN, WOLVERENE, n. The glutton, a carnivorous animal of voracious = appetite. The name wolverene is applied to an animal of North America, = considered by Linne as a peculiar species, (Ursus luscus, ) but which = has been since regarded as a variety of the glutton, (U. Gulo.) ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEE2B0.E0A0AB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The notion that a wolverine drops onto its prey from tree limbs is = not=20 new.  Here are three entries in the 1828 Webster's = dictionary.
ymos
Lanney R
 
GLUT'TON, n.  glut'n.  [Low L. gluto.]  One who = indulges to=20 excess in eating.
1.  One eager of any thing to=20 excess.
 Gluttons in murder, wanton to destroy.
2.  In = zoology,=20 an animal of the genus Ursus, found in the N. of Europe and Siberia. It = grows to=20 the length of three feet,but has short legs and moves slowly.  It = is a=20 carnivorous animal, and in order to catch its prey, it climbs a tree and = from=20 that darts down upon a deer or other animal.  It is names from its=20 voracious appetite.
CARCAJO, n.  The glutton, a voracious carnivorous = animal.
WOLVERIN, WOLVERENE, n. The glutton, a carnivorous animal of = voracious=20 appetite. The name wolverene is applied to an animal of North America,=20 considered by Linne as a peculiar species, (Ursus luscus, ) but which = has been=20 since regarded as a variety of the glutton, (U. = Gulo.)
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEE2B0.E0A0AB20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 23:11:18 EDT i've also heard that pound for pound the only thing more ferocious than a raccoon is the wolverine. i've seen coons rip open hav-a-heart traps and turn steel to mush. i'd say they are both among the most ferocious critters in north america. never heard anything about the shrew, but the name gives me a clue . Barney ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 09 Aug 1999 22:16:06 -0500 Pound for pound I'm the most ferocious.... Oh, sorry couldn't resist! What's a shrew? You gotta watch them trapped coons! They act all subdued till you get close enough then look-out!!! Dull Hawk ---------- > From: RR1LA@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines > Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 10:11 PM > > i've also heard that pound for pound the only thing more ferocious than a > raccoon is the wolverine. i've seen coons rip open hav-a-heart traps and > turn steel to mush. i'd say they are both among the most ferocious critters > in north america. never heard anything about the shrew, but the name gives me > a clue . Barney > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 09 Aug 1999 20:41:11 -0700 On Thu, 05 Aug 1999 18:14:08 -0600 Allen Hall writes: >Has anyone got or seen a TVM trade gun? I'm thinking real serious >about >getting one. Based on their other stuff, I will, but I'd like the >input. > >Thanks ahead of time, > >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > >Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country > > well here we go. i bought a tvm Virginia style riffle. swamped barrel and iron furniture. it took 41/2 months to get here and when i got it the total price was 946.00 smackers. i like it but i could have got the same quality of workmanship from a kit gun for 1/3 less. i guess i was expecting perfection at that price. i was pretty green at the time, but quality is quality. I'M not saying that jack makes "bad" riffles, just that whoever made mine was not as fully involved as i would be building my own. if you want the full details contact me off list and I'll be happy to tell you about it. YMHS, "Ephraim" Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: nuff said Date: 10 Aug 1999 03:52:45 GMT This is an old one. TTBOMK, this is urban legend. Anybody out there on the list know otherwise? I think I've seen this one about once a year since I got online 5-6 years ago. On Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:13:01 -0700, you wrote: >>=20 >> Darwin Awards=20 >> The Darwin nominees are in again. (This is the award bestowed upon >> the >> people who have helpfully removed themselves from the gene pool by = their own efforts. > >> NOMINEE No. 6: [The Indianapolis Star]: A cigarette lighter may have >> trig-=20 >> gered a fatal explosion. A Jay County man, using a lighter to check >> the >> barrel of a muzzleloader, was killed when the weapon discharged in >> his >> face.=20 >> Sheriff investigators said Gregory David Pryor died in his parents' >> rural Dunkirk home while cleaning a 54-caliber muzzleloader that had >> not >> been firing properly. He was using the lighter to look into the >> barrel >> when the=20 >> gunpowder ignited. > > > Butch Roy Parker We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks = to the internet, we know this is not true. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver?? Date: 09 Aug 1999 21:02:58 -0700 (PDT) On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > 24 wifes? All of mixed blood or indain, some have said on this list? Seems > doutful. Hallo Trapper From my readings, and the information posted by the knowledgable Angela... it was not uncommon at all for trappers to take their Metis/Indian wifes and children with them. After all, they were gone for a year at a crack, and women made life much easier by preparing camps, meals, working hides, etc... additionally, life on the move for a trapping brigade... probably wasn't that different from what the Indian women knew at home (that last is my opinion mind you). My wife, on the other hand, is up in arms because I put a drying braintan project (elk hide) up to dry in our bathroom... seems the apparently strong oder of dead things hadn't quite worn off yet. I will probably be sleeping with the dogs tonight ;-) Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glue stick Date: 10 Aug 1999 04:06:13 GMT Isenglass is still available, although the original isenglass, especially that made (AIR-as I recall) from the sturgeon bladder is quite expensive and hard to get. =20 Substitutes from other fish bladders, and even synthetics are avialable at various home brew and winemaking shops. I've never made a brew or wine bad enough to need it, so I don't know any more than it is commercially available. =20 (Those at the SW in 1996 may recall my efforts at an IPA (which I've won awards at, but not for the batch in the following discussion) and think that that particular brew needed fish bladders to improve it, but the problem was that I got distracted during the hops addition, and ended up with 130 IBU of bitterness instead of 65. I thought it was still pretty good, along about December of the following year, but some of you may be right in that adding a fish to the mug might have cut the tang just a bit. I do know that large additions of tequila helped.) On Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:18:35 EDT, you wrote: ><< I'SINGLASS, n. i'zinglass. [that is, ise or ice-glass.] > A substance consisting chiefly of gelatin, of a firm texture and = whitish=20 >color, prepared from the sounds or air-bladders of certain fresh water=20 >fishes, particularly of the huso, a fish of the sturgeon kind, found in = the=20 >rivers of Russia. It is used as an agglutinant and in fining wines. >=20 > I wonder what available substance would substitute? >> > >I believe you can still buy it at wine and beer maker shops. It is = still=20 >used to clarify wine and beer. So you may not need a substitute. > >Your Humble Servant > >C.T. Oakes Roy Parker We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks = to the internet, we know this is not true. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: musquash, misquash.etc Date: 09 Aug 1999 21:36:33 -0700 (PDT) On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > musquash, misquash = muskrats Ahhhh, I had thought that might be it, but didna wish to show my ignorance any more that I usually do :) Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huber Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cover Date: 09 Aug 1999 22:56:45 -0700 Tom, An article by Gary Mueller in BOOK OF BUCKSKINNING IV indicates that: "Gun cases were also made of wool. Nothing beats wool to repel water and moisture, therefore helping keep you and your gun dry and warm." He cites a lot of works at the end of the article but quotes nothing specific to back up this assumption. I carry my trade gun in a wool case similar to the one pictured in this article. I had heard that new guns were often shipped to a buyer in woolen cases but I can't remember the source I read this in. The article goes into some detail on colors styles and prices paid for point blankets, etc. Worth reading. Shoots-the-Prairie Larry Huber At 09:16 PM 8/8/99 -0400, you wrote: >After searching the E-mail archives, my meager library, and a few other >sources and coming up empty, I pose this question: >Is there any correct style, construction, color, etc for a gun cover >made from a wool blanket, or is this something that has >too many possible variations to be wrong. I suspect there are probably >no originals around to see. Any ideas or thoughts before I put the >knife to this old moth-eaten dirty red blanket? > >Thanx, Tom > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huber Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oatmeal Date: 09 Aug 1999 23:05:02 -0700 I take McCann's Irish Oatmeal with me when I go on the ground. You have to boil the hell out of it to get a meal but the taste is worth it. I prefer them to corn meal mush. These are "cut oats" not rolled. Just chopped kernels. Shoots-the-Prairie Larry Huber At 08:19 AM 8/9/99 -0700, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: >On Sun, 08 August 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > >> >> > On Fri, 06 August 1999, Mike Rock wrote: >> > On the previous post about oats..my desire is to be able to >> >'roll my own', oats, that is....anyone who knows a reference, >> > or how, holler, please! >> > >> > Mike Rock >> >> >> Mike, >> I called Buck's house this morning, his wife said he got called into work, so I grabbed what was on his web site under: >> >> CEREALS AND MEALS >> blue corn meal, >> blended meal, >> barley grits, >> rye-rolled, >> corn grits, >> oats-rolled, >> oats-steel cut, >> wheat-coarse, >> corn meal, >> millet meal. >> >> Nothing shown for oat meal, but does show oats-rolled, oats-steel, I'll try him later to night. >> >> Turtle. >> >...................................... > >Mike and Turtle, > >What Turtle has shown; is the most common reference found from supply and trade lists; 1750 Pennsylvania German for steel-cut oats, and 1820 northeast lists for rolled oats. > >Earlier dates have been found on a few lists, but not enough reference to say it was a commonly traded grain. This is not surprising as record keeping was not kept as accurately as in later years when competition had become a factor. > >When you look at either; steel-cut or rolled oats when boiled, they both look close to a course oat meal, this is probably what you may want Mike. > > > >Later, >Buck Conner >dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ >_____________________________________ >NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade >and early history of the times. AMM journal > >The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * >Conklin, MI 49403 >ATTN: Jon Link > >The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - >quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. >_____________________________________ > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mkDragon Subject: Re: MtMan-List: nuff said Date: 09 Aug 1999 23:32:48 -0700 Roy Parker wrote: > > This is an old one. TTBOMK, this is urban legend. Anybody out there > on the list know otherwise? I think I've seen this one about once a > year since I got online 5-6 years ago. > I expect it is. Who cares? I've known people like this. Besides, it made me laugh. "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." If everything were real, what fun would life be? Butch :) -- "What is a champion? To me, a champion isn't someone who never loses or falls down. It's someone who gets back up. Someone who has heart."-- "Michelle Kwan, refering to Chen Lu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines Date: 10 Aug 1999 06:30:57 -0500 A shrew is a tiny little mouse looking varmit that lives in leaf litter, = etc and has a very high metabolism. This requires that he eat more or = less constantly.....about his body weight each day, if I remember = correctly....and he plays hell with bugs. If it moves, he attacks and = eats it. He would be a dangereous rascal indeed if he were much bigger = than your thumb. Lanney R ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 10:16 PM > Pound for pound I'm the most ferocious.... Oh, sorry couldn't = resist! > What's a shrew? You gotta watch them trapped coons! They act all = subdued > till you get close enough then look-out!!!=20 >=20 > Dull Hawk >=20 > ---------- > > From: RR1LA@aol.com > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping wolverines > > Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 10:11 PM > >=20 > > i've also heard that pound for pound the only thing more ferocious = than a >=20 > > raccoon is the wolverine. i've seen coons rip open hav-a-heart = traps and >=20 > > turn steel to mush. i'd say they are both among the most ferocious > critters=20 > > in north america. never heard anything about the shrew, but the name > gives me=20 > > a clue . Barney > >=20 > >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cover Date: 10 Aug 1999 06:56:02 -0700 On Mon, 09 August 1999, Huber wrote: > > Tom, > An article by Gary Mueller in BOOK OF BUCKSKINNING IV indicates that: "Gun > cases were also made of wool. Nothing beats wool to repel water and > moisture, therefore helping keep you and your gun dry and warm." He cites > a lot of works at the end of the article but quotes nothing specific to > back up this assumption. I carry my trade gun in a wool case similar to > the one pictured in this article. I had heard that new guns were often > shipped to a buyer in woolen cases but I can't remember the source I read > this in. The article goes into some detail on colors styles and prices > paid for point blankets, etc. Worth reading. > > Shoots-the-Prairie Larry Huber > ______________________________ The biggest problem with wool is if moisture gets on the gun and its put in the wool case, the wool will hold the moisture and within 24 hours or less you have a nice rusted gun. We have found when around water, canoe trips, etc. one is better off to remove the weapon and carry it out of the case, before putting it back in the case - make sure case is dry, wipe the gun down with a light coat of oil. Leather cases are worst yet. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 07:02:58 -0700 On Mon, 09 August 1999, terry l landis wrote: > > > > On Thu, 05 Aug 1999 18:14:08 -0600 Allen Hall writes: > >Has anyone got or seen a TVM trade gun? I'm thinking real serious > >about > >getting one. Based on their other stuff, I will, but I'd like the > >input. > > > >Thanks ahead of time, > > > >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > > > >Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country > > > > > well here we go. i bought a tvm Virginia style riffle. swamped barrel and > iron furniture. > it took 41/2 months to get here and when i got it the total price was > 946.00 smackers. > i like it but i could have got the same quality of workmanship from a kit > gun for 1/3 less. > i guess i was expecting perfection at that price. i was pretty green at > the time, but quality is quality. ............... The last smoothbore Jack built me will be the last, period. Poor wood to metal fit, think one of his newbee's did the work, unhappy enough that I glass bedded questionable areas and traded it off. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 10:14:46 -0400 (EDT) I must say I am suprised at TVM's decreasing rep. Although I do not have one of his guns all the old timers I have talked to in the past told me that if I was going to get one custom that Jack was the man and that even his kits are good ones. I am just wondering if any of ya'll that had a bad exp. with his guns or work have asked for him to fix, replace or take care of the problem. This is a small world and an even smaller buckskinning community and a bad rep is not good. I would rather make less money and have an excellant rep than more money and a bad one. Just my thoughts. At 07:02 AM 8/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 09 August 1999, terry l landis wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Thu, 05 Aug 1999 18:14:08 -0600 Allen Hall writes: >> >Has anyone got or seen a TVM trade gun? I'm thinking real serious >> >about >> >getting one. Based on their other stuff, I will, but I'd like the >> >input. >> > >> >Thanks ahead of time, >> > >> >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country >> > >> >Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country >> > >> > >> well here we go. i bought a tvm Virginia style riffle. swamped barrel and >> iron furniture. >> it took 41/2 months to get here and when i got it the total price was >> 946.00 smackers. >> i like it but i could have got the same quality of workmanship from a kit >> gun for 1/3 less. >> i guess i was expecting perfection at that price. i was pretty green at >> the time, but quality is quality. ............... > > The last smoothbore Jack built me will be the last, period. Poor wood to metal fit, think one of his newbee's did the work, unhappy enough that I glass bedded questionable areas and traded it off. > Turtle. > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: MtMan-List: Trading Site Date: 10 Aug 1999 10:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Howdy All, Wondering if any of you know of a good buckskinner trading site. I have come across a couple years of old Muzzle Blasts mags and don't really feel right about selling them but I would trade'm. Any info would be greatley appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 10:30:16 -0400 if you are unhappy with TVM suggest you look at the caywood trade gun---good quality and totally built by him---including all the parts---all investment cast and fully interchangeable in the parts---from gun # 1 to present and he ships 2 or 3 guns a day--- and a but cheeper than the TVM and good quality. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial Reenactment Date: 10 Aug 1999 07:52:43 -0700 On Mon, 09 August 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > On Sun, 08 August 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > > > Is anything like this remotely possible? > > > > Are any of the 500 or so active AMM brothers exploring this? Maybe give > > guided tours of the most important sections of the trails? Are any of > > the trails currently marked in any manner? > > > > C-SPAN is currently doing a series on The 41 U.S. Presidents - > > travelling to all the historic places associated with each - > > interviewing their descendants - having historical scholars answer > > phoned-in questions. Maybe C-SPAN and the AMM could work together on > > something similar for the Corps of Discovery Bicentennial? > > > > Can't think of another group that has any more practical experience and > > knowledge of these events than those on this list. > ........................................................ > Jon, > > But as a member of a small group of adventures have traveled from Ft. Benton MT to Ft. de Chartres ILL and all points in between. Then in another group years before have traveled from Phila. PA to Ft. Osage, both groups where doing apprx. 1805-1810 time periods, equipage, food, etc. > > This has taken myself a 30 year period of a few weeks to a month at a time compared to the couple of years of the original adventure. There are several that have done the whole experience from sea to shinging sea in following in the footsteps of L&C or other greats. > > __________________________________________ Like Buck - several of us have followed the L&C trail, made several of the trips that Buck mentioned over the years, haven't had the time, money or get up and go that he and a few others have had lately. Have really enjoyed the Upper Missouri and Yellowstone rivers over the years. Can't believe what going on the Mississippi would be like in a canoe, but the small groups have done this and more. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trading Site Date: 10 Aug 1999 11:04:03 -0400 adison miller on the mlml chat just opened up a tradeing site---no cost to you or the buyer---he will post your stuff on his board---his e-mail address is ad.miller@mindsprings.com (I hope that is correct)--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:19:23 -0400 (EDT) "Frank V. Rago" writes: >Howdy All, > >Wondering if any of you know of a good buckskinner trading site. I >have >come across a couple years of old Muzzle Blasts mags and don't really >feel >right about selling them but I would trade'm. Any info would be >greatley >appreciated. > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 11:00:57 -0400 turtle and all suggest if you are upset with TVM call jack gardner and discuss the problem with him---(in a cival manner) (VBG) ---explaining what the total problem is and then going into detail---as a maker and as a reputable dealer he will listen and then give you some options---badmouthing a guy before you try to work out a problem is not my way of working but who am i to say how to do things (BG)---I dont own a TVM or have seen one lately but they usto be of pretty good quality and you usually got what you paid for---the price you quoted the gun should be of good quality and I can see how a person could be upset---the usuall problem with most buyers is that the wood is not as figured or as pretty as they think they should be( wood gradeing by the suppliers has changed over the last few years)---if the fit of the components is bad then that can only be fixed by replacement---I am sure he would talk that over with you and ask you to return the gun for exchange or refund as from what i know of he is a reliable dealer---I know my policy on my work is if you dont like it send it back (If you want your money back send it back in the condition recieved by you and I will totally refund ) or if I can fix it for you I will but if you screw with it then it's your problem and I cant help you. quality is quality and what one person believes is good is sometimes only average or below average to another---so the solution I see is the l"lets talk this situation over" then when you open up communications you can get to the total brunt of the problem---had one guy that ordered a gun and said he wanted the wood dark---I did it that way when he got the gun he called me mad as a hornet---said the good wood doesnt have any figure curl or stripe that is noticable. He started out with the fit of the components is terrible, and the quality of workmanship is terrable---then after talking I found out it was just too dark to suit him was in actuality the only real problem--had him ship it back at my expense---redid the finish and shipped it back---he called and thanked me for replacing the wood and that the quality of inletting was outstanding---"same gun and same wood only refinished" I called him after i got his note and explained what i had done and he didnt believe me ---said it was a different gun even wanted to argue over that---finally just agreed with him he did have a new gun "finish that is". the key is to open up a channel to the maker and discuss the problem---if you aint happy then do something about it--- sorry for this disertation but this is a pet peve of mine---talk to me if you are unhappy I try to set the customer first---I believe that TVM would do the same thing---(GBG) now im' off this soapbox---and back to the shop making turkey calls for the fall season and trying to fill back orders and promised calls--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:14:46 -0400 (EDT) "Frank V. Rago" writes: >I must say I am suprised at TVM's decreasing rep. Although I do not >have >one of his guns all the old timers I have talked to in the past told >me that >if I was going to get one custom that Jack was the man and that even >his >kits are good ones. I am just wondering if any of ya'll that had a >bad exp. >with his guns or work have asked for him to fix, replace or take care >of the >problem. This is a small world and an even smaller buckskinning >community >and a bad rep is not good. I would rather make less money and have an >excellant rep than more money and a bad one. Just my thoughts. > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Bicentennial Reenactment Date: 10 Aug 1999 11:12:27 -0400 turtle contact me offline if you were with dan anderson and the rest of the party that did part of the louis and clark treck several years back---dan has a e-mail address now and i can give it to you---and will see him in the next few weeks---he is still canterous as usual but has got some new footwear without the holes in the bottom. still doesnt like to tiptoe thru the tulips (PERSONAL JOKE) from the treck--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 08:22:16 -0700 On Tue, 10 August 1999, Michael Pierce wrote: > > if you are unhappy with TVM suggest you look at the caywood trade > gun---good quality and totally built by him---including all the > parts---all investment cast and fully interchangeable in the parts---from > gun # 1 to present and he ships 2 or 3 guns a day--- > and a but cheeper than the TVM and good quality. > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce __________________________ I agree - got three long guns and a pistol from Caywood in the "white" and would compare them to any custom for style and design. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: steel wool Date: 10 Aug 1999 10:23:08 -0500 Friends, Does anyone out there know when steel wool and sandpaper were invented? TIA, HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trading Site Date: 10 Aug 1999 11:38:04 -0400 Thanks for the plug, Hawk... email is ad.miller@mindspring.com ... no "s"... :) If you get down to naples, look me up... would like to meet you and go to lunch.. Ad -----Original Message----- >adison miller on the mlml chat just opened up a tradeing site---no cost >to you or the buyer---he will post your stuff on his board---his e-mail >address is ad.miller@mindsprings.com (I hope that is correct)--- > "Hawk" >Michael Pierce >854 Glenfield Dr. >Palm Harbor, florida 34684 >1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com > >On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:19:23 -0400 (EDT) "Frank V. Rago" > writes: >>Howdy All, >> >>Wondering if any of you know of a good buckskinner trading site. I >>have >>come across a couple years of old Muzzle Blasts mags and don't really >>feel >>right about selling them but I would trade'm. Any info would be >>greatley >>appreciated. >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 13:33:07 EDT when i got my .54 flint southern poor boy (++wood, brass furniture) about 8 years ago, it came with a hand-poured nose cap that had a couple of pits in it. i called him on it, and jack asked me to send the gun back and replaced the cap without hesitation, and he picked up all the expenses in doing so. since that time, he has expanded his shop, added new people, and we can all hear the result.... sounds like he hired some problems and maybe is spending less time than necessary in the quality control area. my matching kentucky pistol came in perfect, and they are both great shooting guns that are admired my everybody who sees them. barney fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: "Krome-Tan" Believe It or Not !!! Date: 10 Aug 1999 10:56:15 -0700 (PDT) I know ! It's not PEROID !!! But it is forgiving. In the late 1960's early 70's,I tried Taxidermy(got pretty good I thought) When it came to tanning I orderd some "Krome-Tan" and tried it. I tanned several hides and furs(Hair off and on) Then tried some deer hides. Made a vest,and other items. I had several deer hides in the "kroem-Tan" solution in a 30 gal. plastic container. In 1975 I moved from NE Oklahoma to South Central Oklahoma. The hides were moved and stored in a shed.To be worked on when I had time, I checked the water level once in a while and added water to keep the amount about constant. In 1990 we again moved ( about 100 yards), this time no shed. I put the container under an old metal(army surplus)table. In 1995 I purchased a black powder rifle. No shooting bag ??? wonder if those hides out back are any good? I got them out, worked them, Wound up with bag, pants,and sleevless top.( made a set of sleeves like welders sleeves that I can put on over the top of the "shirt" Is this forgiving or not??? 20 + Years In the solution George === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 11:06:50 -0700 I have dealt with Jack for probably 30 years, buying, selling , and when I closed my store sold him all the locks, barrels, stocks and misc. gun parts. Like any business, as you get larger and hire help, sometimes parts of the business may suffer due to being so busy and sometimes can't cover all bases. Jack is like anyone else that cares about his customers and will be more than willing to talk over and take care of the problem. I know in Turtle's case I saw the gun, he should have made the call, but let things go to the point that selling it, and moving on was probably the best for everyone involved. Sometimes one has to just flat ass walk away, no matter what the deal. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 17:54:41 EDT Buck writes: > I have dealt with Jack for probably 30 years, buying, selling , and when I > closed my store sold him all the locks, barrels, stocks and misc. gun parts. I have two guns by Jack....an early Virginia and an Early English fowler. The Virginia was signed on the barrel by Jack, so I assume it was his work. I bought it 2nd hand from a guy who was hard up for money, but the gun had never been fired. It sat in my dry arid closet all winter, and developed a hairline crack down through the wrist. Could have been the wood, could have been cause my house was too dry, or could have been because the guy I bought it from cranked the screws down way too tight. No one knows, but I don't think its anyone's fault. Those things happen. You can view that gun at http://oldfoxtraders.com/garner.thm > Like any business, as you get larger and hire help, sometimes parts of the > business may suffer due to being so busy and sometimes can't cover all bases. Toni runs the front, and a sweeter southern belle you will never meet. Her husband, Matt, does most of the shop work. I don't know how much Jack is involved now. I specifically commissioned Matt to make my English fowler. I spent almost a year traveling around gun shows and such, specifically hand picking all the parts I wanted on the gun, so that it would be a unique, one of a kind gun. I sent all the parts to Matt, along with my specifications. We conversed on the phone several times along the building process to verify exactly what I had in mind. He couldn't use the stock I sent him, and made another one for no extra charge, keeping my wood for a gun that it would fit. I had some fancy carving done on it. All the parts were extremely ornate and required some amount of skill to inlet. It was built to my length of pull. TVM only charged me $250 to make this gun. In my business, that pays for only 5 hours labor, and I know he had a hell of lot more time in it than that. I spent over $700 on the parts alone. Anyone who thinks these gunmakers are getting rich need to reexamine the process. > Jack is like anyone else that cares about his customers and will be more > than willing to talk over and take care of the problem. Anyone who has a problem with any gun should always call the maker and discuss it in a calm rational manner. Most go out of their way to help you. > I know in Turtle's case I saw the gun, he should have made the call, but let > things go to the point that selling it, and moving on was probably the best > for everyone involved. Don't know if Turtle's gun was commissioned or bought as a stock gun. I mentioned that they kept my stock. I'm sure that at some point, they made a gun from it to recoup their losses. Spare things accumulate around the shop and have to be moved out to make some money. I know other gunmakers who routinely take their UPS damaged guns, leftover stocks, and other parts, and use them to put together a gun during the slow time. They sell these guns at Rendezvous and shows for a discount as show guns, or they sell them to beginners who aren't as critical about everything. If you commission a gun, then it should meet certain standards. If you just buy a gun off the rack or from stock, chances are the quality will not be quite as high. However, it takes almost the same amount of work to make a lousy gun as it does a good one. > Sometimes one has to just flat ass walk away, no matter what the deal. Yup, sometimes you gotta do that to. I probably could have called and sqwuaked about the crack in the Virginia and they would have restocked it for me. However, since I bought it second hand, I didn't figure it was there problem. I'll probably take the loss on the gun, but that's the way I think. Others might think otherwise. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cover Date: 10 Aug 1999 17:56:51 -0400 Larry, Thanks for the reply. That article is where I started but I hope to find some more technical details. Thanks, Tom Huber wrote: > Tom, > An article by Gary Mueller in BOOK OF BUCKSKINNING IV indicates that: "Gun > cases were also made of wool. Nothing beats wool to repel water and > moisture, therefore helping keep you and your gun dry and warm." He cites > a lot of works at the end of the article but quotes nothing specific to > back up this assumption. I carry my trade gun in a wool case similar to > the one pictured in this article. I had heard that new guns were often > shipped to a buyer in woolen cases but I can't remember the source I read > this in. The article goes into some detail on colors styles and prices > paid for point blankets, etc. Worth reading. > > Shoots-the-Prairie Larry Huber > > At 09:16 PM 8/8/99 -0400, you wrote: > >After searching the E-mail archives, my meager library, and a few other > >sources and coming up empty, I pose this question: > >Is there any correct style, construction, color, etc for a gun cover > >made from a wool blanket, or is this something that has > >too many possible variations to be wrong. I suspect there are probably > >no originals around to see. Any ideas or thoughts before I put the > >knife to this old moth-eaten dirty red blanket? > > > >Thanx, Tom > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cover Date: 10 Aug 1999 18:13:45 -0400 Excellent point. I have also considered an oiled or painted canvas cover with perhaps a wool lining for those expected times when dry is only a memory. Making one would be easy but authenticating it may prove tough indeed. Does one typically plug the muzzle during times of transport or shall we let it breathe? Tom turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > The biggest problem with wool is if moisture gets on the gun and its put in the wool case, the wool will hold the moisture and within 24 hours or less you have a nice rusted gun. We have found when around water, canoe trips, etc. one is better off to remove the weapon and carry it out of the case, before putting it back in the case - make sure case is dry, wipe the gun down with a light coat of oil. Leather cases are worst yet. > > Turtle. > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trading Site Date: 10 Aug 1999 18:29:38 EDT You might try this site it's another message board message: www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb106703. Been lots of good tips and stuff passed back and forth. Still... YMHS ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ "Sleeps Loudly" Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: MtMan-List: Traders Row Date: 10 Aug 1999 19:47:34 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEE369.312A9CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There has been a posting on the TRADERS ROW site. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/trader.htm Past issues of MUZZLE BLAST magazines from the late 50s on up... email = responses direct to the lister on site... ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEE369.312A9CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There has been a posting on the = TRADERS ROW=20 site.
 
http://= www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/trader.htm
 
Past issues of MUZZLE BLAST = magazines from the=20 late 50s on up... email responses direct to the lister on = site...
 
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEE369.312A9CA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 16:56:23 -0700 > I have two guns by Jack....an early Virginia and an Early English fowler. > The Virginia was signed on the barrel by Jack, so I assume it was his work. > > Dave Kanger ............................ Dave, I see we agree on this subject about dealing with whatever the dealer is selling. Be calm and go easy when trying to get a problem settled, when I still had a retail store - that's what I would preach to anyone behind the counter. To stay in business, and the one Dave is in is tough. Any service type business whether your the May Tag Man or the lock builder, you have to treat the customer just the way you like to be treated. Man I've made some hairy deals in trying to keep a customer happy, and you "Turtle" know how close the profit margain was on some of our dealings. That's why he will make a remark about me or my store, as others have. If I took them down the trail and shorted them, do you think they would even say anything - hell NO. There are a lot of good guys in the gun business and Old Jack is one, I took him on his first buffalo hunt back in the early '80's, with Freddie Harris and some of his other southern buddies, had a heck of a time figuring out what they would say when a buffalo would run at them. I thought they where saying "shoot" - that's what I'm yelling, turned out afterward, they where saying "oh shi...", we where close. I have hunted, camped, got drunk and just had fun with these guys, and Jack never changes, he's just a Southern Gentleman. Thanks for your time. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Repost Date: 10 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0400 (EDT) One or two lists back, someone posted an e-mail address to send encouraging writings to help bolster morale for his son and others in the Armed Forces stationed in Kosovo. Could someone on the list please post it again. forgot to save it - old age creeping up on me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Old Magazines - Buckskin Report, T+LR, Backwoodsman, Date: 10 Aug 1999 22:31:08 -0400 (EDT) This probably is extremely far fetched, but if the Federal Government ever gets the whole country re-wired for Internet-2, all the fantastic golden nuggets of knowledge from these magazines could be downloaded in a few seconds. One of the computer support guys down the hall stated a couple months ago that IF! this ever happens one will be able to download an entire encyclopedia in a matter of a 2-3 seconds. If only the AMM or another such good group had a "cache" or small hut-like storage building where every issue of these magazines could be stored until the Internet-2 happened. Hate to see this knowledge lost. Heard someone once say "never throw anything out - if you throw it out throw it where you can find it" (no doubt a GOOD pack-rat). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lewis Kevin Raper" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cover Date: 10 Aug 1999 23:41:39 -0400 Greetings to the list, I have read Barnett trade guns came in a wool case. Do not ask me where i read this little tid-bit of knowledge as I don't remember! Watch yer top knot, Kevin (PossumHunter) Raper ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TVM Trade Gun? Date: 10 Aug 1999 20:51:18 -0700 first off i didn't mean to bad mouth anybody least of all jack. i just meant to say that the fit wasn't as good as i expected it to be. i was also led to belive in some fable of out of the box accuracy. i like my gun, but when i got it the first thing i noticed was the flaws, and being green as i was i thought there wouldn't be any. as has been said , i doubt jack made this riffle even though his name is on it. i have been able to live with it and i have gotten lot's of compliments on this gun of mine. but for several hundred dollars less i could have gotten a kit and the same quality of workmanship with money left over for accoutrements. over all i give this gun an 8 out of 10 for wood to metal fit, and a 9 for overall looks. i guess i was expecting 10's all the way around for the semi-custom price. hell i might even buy that fowling piece of his my self, but as a kit, it is a fine looking gun. YMHS, "Ephraim" Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James Sullivan" Subject: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 11 Aug 1999 23:19:20 -0500 Hello List and friends, Today I went up to a mailing center to send out a Bess that a brother has purchased from me. The people behind the counter were very interested in the weapon and others in the shop asked about what it was and how it worked. I obliged, of course, and we all had a great few moments. When it was my turn in line, the person behind the counter said they would have to check with UPS about the rules for guns and took down the info. Well, I had it on good advice that there would be no problems. I had already checked this out with others who had sent out guns (black powder) on a regular basis. Would you believe the guy at UPS told me under no circumstances would they send a gun of any...any...kind out to anyone but a licenced gun dealer. We're talking even a B-B gun!! Are we talking agenda? As I said, I checked this out. There are others who send guns out on a regular basis with no license to others with no license. Of course, tomorrow I'm calling and checking with what I hope will be a higher up. Trust me, I don't want to break any rules, but the gun will (!!!) go out to the guy who bought it. (Don't worry, Deane, you'll get Bess by hook or crook.) I just can't believe that things are coming down to this. Maybe I'm just naive by wanting to be law-abiding and all. Maybe the lawyers and politicians do have the right idea (and if one of you just happens to be one of those, I'm not trying to start a fight) and just break or bend the rules to suit themselves. Sorry if some may think this long commentary a little off-topic, but I felt I needed to share my experience with all of you. I truly hope this is just an isolated incident, but you never can tell with the way things are going. OK, now we can get back to business and those who wish may flame away!! James Sullivan ALRA #78, COHT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 11 Aug 1999 22:04:02 -0700 James, I've sent my firelock by UPS several times. When I attend an event, which I will fly to, I send firearms UPS to friends nearby to avoid airline hassles. I insure it, and state that it is a flintlock, muzzle loading, smooth bore. Not,many UPS people have a clue what I am talking about (and I don't smarten up chumps). If someone asks, I just nonchalantley say it's a reproduction antique. The point is; keep them in the dark, and insure it. Don't mention key words; gun-firearm-etc... After a canoe trip to N. Dakota, my partner drove to town from his farm and shipped it back home for me. On his way home he heard on the radio that UPS went on Strike! Too late, he worried about it and called me. I told him, don't worry it's as safe as if they weren't on strike. Sure enough it showed up a few weeks later, after UPS settled the strike. I'm just glad the strike happened after the event...no harm done. We shouldn't have to worry about such things, being 'free' americans...but we do! Motivate, fight back....write letters, etc... or we'll all be without our beloved firelocks at events, because we just 'might' be terrorists, right wing fanatics, ENEMIES OF THE STATE!!!! Instead of freedom loving, history loving educators.... Don't let THEM decide what you are.... I feel your frustration. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 12 Aug 1999 01:27:41 EDT JW, Its pretty bizarre all right. In checking the websites, UPS (www.ups.com) classifies firearms as prohibited goods and apparently will not ship them at all. It was not always this way. FedEx (www.fedex.com) will ship them via priority overnight delivery ONLY, and ONLY if the shipper OR receiver is a LICENSED manufacturer, importer, dealer or collector. It just another example of the ways things are headed. Yesterday here in LA was another perfect example of peoples blindness. Some deranged idiot shoots up a community center, and every politician and law enforcement officer talks about guns and the need to eliminate them from society. NOT ONE talked about the brain-damaged coward that did the shooting being eliminated from society or punishing people (eliminating them from society) for improper use of firearms such as robbery, etc. TEDDY KENNEDY'S CAR AND JFK JR'S AIRPLANE HAVE KILLED MORE PEOPLE THAN MY GUNS but Kennedy wants to ban guns. Go figure. Only thing I can figure is to stockpile all necessary supplies (powder, projectiles and guns while you can, and register the cheap shitty ones so you can turn something in later. Not even sure that will help. Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 11 Aug 1999 22:32:20 -0700 After thought..... this reminds me of when the A.M.M. was published (in the L.A. times) at the end of a long list of "militia" groups. A bunch of us were talking about it , and someone snickered "what are we gonna do, take over the gov't with our flintlocks?" Someone else added "It's happened at least once before!" This is an argument some Liberal may use against us. Sound rediculous? How many other things have transpired that at first sounded ridiculous? Forwarned is forarmed. Our rights are being seriously threatened. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 11 Aug 1999 22:38:42 -0700 Hell, come to think of it, the only guy I know of who has shot someone , did it by accident...... Sorry brother, couldn't resist....Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nelson, R Scott" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 12 Aug 1999 08:59:44 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BEE4C2.8AFB57CE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" James, Since you are required to declare what is inside your package, just say that it is "machined parts". You won't be lying! -----Original Message----- From: James Sullivan [SMTP:jwsullivan@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 11:19 PM To: Native List; hist_text@lists.xmission.com; COHT; ALRA Subject: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! ------_=_NextPart_001_01BEE4C2.8AFB57CE Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe!

James,

   Since you are required to = declare what is inside your package, just say that it is "machined = parts". You won't be lying!

    -----Original = Message-----
    From:   James Sullivan = [SMTP:jwsullivan@home.com]
    Sent:   Wednesday, August 11, 1999 11:19 PM
    To:     Native List; hist_text@lists.xmission.com; COHT; = ALRA
    Subject:       = MtMan-List: You ain't gonna = believe!

------_=_NextPart_001_01BEE4C2.8AFB57CE-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Firearms/building and repair Date: 12 Aug 1999 10:15:30 -0400 A couple of weeks ago someone posted to the list wanting the name of someone to assemble a rifle kit. Steve Zihn repaired a badly damaged double-barrel shotgun for me three years ago at the Riverton, Wyoming 1838 Reenactment. He is reasonable, a fine craftsman and a nice guy. Steve Zihn 112 Riggs Road Shoshoni, WY 82649 307-856-6431 I recommend you send him your "machined parts" as Nelson coined the phrase. Laura Glise Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 12 Aug 1999 08:07:45 -0700 NO!..........NOT "EVERY" LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 10:27 PM > JW, Its pretty bizarre all right. In checking the websites, UPS > (www.ups.com) classifies firearms as prohibited goods and apparently will not > ship them at all. It was not always this way. FedEx (www.fedex.com) will ship > them via priority overnight delivery ONLY, and ONLY if the shipper OR > receiver is a LICENSED manufacturer, importer, dealer or collector. > > It just another example of the ways things are headed. Yesterday here in LA > was another perfect example of peoples blindness. Some deranged idiot shoots > up a community center, and every politician and law enforcement officer talks > about guns and the need to eliminate them from society. NOT ONE talked about > the brain-damaged coward that did the shooting being eliminated from society > or punishing people (eliminating them from society) for improper use of > firearms such as robbery, etc. > > TEDDY KENNEDY'S CAR AND JFK JR'S AIRPLANE HAVE KILLED MORE PEOPLE THAN MY > GUNS but Kennedy wants to ban guns. Go figure. > Only thing I can figure is to stockpile all necessary supplies (powder, > projectiles and guns while you can, and register the cheap shitty ones so you > can turn something in later. Not even sure that will help. Barney Fife > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 12 Aug 1999 12:35:36 -0600 DEPARTMENT OF STATE PUBLICATION 7277 Disarmament Series 5 http://www.he.net/~exclsior/mscott/disarm.html Check out this webpage!!! Every President since this document was formed has backed it up and 'they' are in Stage 2, and getting closer to stage 3 all the time! Ron -----Original Message----- ; COHT ; ALRA >Hello List and friends, >Today I went up to a mailing center to send out a Bess that a brother has >purchased from me. The people behind the counter were very interested in the >weapon and others in the shop asked about what it was and how it worked. I >obliged, of course, and we all had a great few moments. > >When it was my turn in line, the person behind the counter said they would >have to check with UPS about the rules for guns and took down the info. >Well, I had it on good advice that there would be no problems. I had already >checked this out with others who had sent out guns (black powder) on a >regular basis. > >Would you believe the guy at UPS told me under no circumstances would they >send a gun of any...any...kind out to anyone but a licenced gun dealer. >We're talking even a B-B gun!! Are we talking agenda? As I said, I checked >this out. There are others who send guns out on a regular basis with no >license to others with no license. Of course, tomorrow I'm calling and >checking with what I hope will be a higher up. > >Trust me, I don't want to break any rules, but the gun will (!!!) go out to >the guy who bought it. (Don't worry, Deane, you'll get Bess by hook or >crook.) I just can't believe that things are coming down to this. Maybe I'm >just naive by wanting to be law-abiding and all. Maybe the lawyers and >politicians do have the right idea (and if one of you just happens to be one >of those, I'm not trying to start a fight) and just break or bend the rules >to suit themselves. > >Sorry if some may think this long commentary a little off-topic, but I felt >I needed to share my experience with all of you. I truly hope this is just >an isolated incident, but you never can tell with the way things are going. > >OK, now we can get back to business and those who wish may flame away!! > >James Sullivan ALRA #78, COHT > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Shipping of Firearms Date: 12 Aug 1999 15:53:36 EDT JW, Its pretty bizarre all right. In checking the websites, UPS (www.ups.com) classifies firearms as prohibited goods and apparently will not ship them at all. It was not always this way. FedEx (www.fedex.com) will ship them via priority overnight delivery ONLY, and ONLY if the shipper OR receiver is a LICENSED manufacturer, importer, dealer or collector. It just another example of the ways things are headed. Yesterday here in LA was another perfect example of peoples blindness. Some deranged idiot shoots up a community center, and every politician and law enforcement officer talks about guns and the need to eliminate them from society. NOT ONE talked about the brain-damaged coward that did the shooting being eliminated from society or punishing people (eliminating them from society) for improper use of firearms such as robbery, etc. TEDDY KENNEDY'S CAR AND JFK JR'S AIRPLANE HAVE KILLED MORE PEOPLE THAN MY GUNS but Kennedy wants to ban guns. Go figure. Only thing I can figure is to stockpile all necessary supplies (powder, projectiles and guns while you can, and register the cheap shitty ones so you can turn something in later. Not even sure that will help. Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "L. A. Romsa" Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Shipping Of Firearms Date: 12 Aug 1999 16:30:31 -0600 It is my understanding that Blackpowder guns are NOT considered firearms! = That is why you can buy and sell and ship without a licence. L.A. Romsa ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Shipping Of Firearms Date: 12 Aug 1999 16:05:38 -0700 On Thu, 12 August 1999, "L. A. Romsa" wrote: > > It is my understanding that Blackpowder guns are NOT considered firearms! That is why you can buy and sell and ship without a licence. > L.A. Romsa ................................. I receive blackpowder firearms for customers all the time without even using my FFL, and UPS delivers them, boxes show picture of them or labeled on ends with a description. This is from several of the supply houses, who ever has the best price at the time. In fact I have received 2 this week, a long gun with labeling on the end and a Ruger Old Army with the Ruger emblem on the brown box. Just sent Dennis Miles a rifle insured as that, with no problem a few months ago. Find this subject strange as I mentioned this to Elliott Bros, House of Muskets, and several others when ordering parts this week, they have had no problems ???? Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Shipping Of Firearms Date: 12 Aug 1999 19:08:29 -0400 Rifle??? What rifle???? D buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > On Thu, 12 August 1999, "L. A. Romsa" wrote: > > > > > It is my understanding that Blackpowder guns are NOT considered firearms! That is why you can buy and sell and ship without a licence. > > L.A. Romsa > ................................. > I receive blackpowder firearms for customers all the time without even using my FFL, and UPS delivers them, boxes show picture of them or labeled on ends with a description. This is from several of the supply houses, who ever has the best price at the time. > > In fact I have received 2 this week, a long gun with labeling on the end and a Ruger Old Army with the Ruger emblem on the brown box. Just sent Dennis Miles a rifle insured as that, with no problem a few months ago. > > Find this subject strange as I mentioned this to Elliott Bros, House of Muskets, and several others when ordering parts this week, they have had no problems ???? > > Later, > Buck Conner > dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > _____________________________________ > NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade > and early history of the times. AMM journal > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * > Conklin, MI 49403 > ATTN: Jon Link > > The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - > quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. > _____________________________________ > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rob Voyles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shipping of Firearms Date: 12 Aug 1999 16:15:58 -0700 Under Federal Law our muzzleloaders are not considered FIREARMS. They are classified by the government as ANTIQUE REPLICAS....Therefore they are not subject to gun control restrictions (so far). UPS ought to ship it....but I'd just box it up and declare the contents as "ANTIQUE REPLICA" just as our own Government classifies them... You can't get in trouble that way. And your not even bending the truth. Also, next time you call your buddies to go to the range, ask them if they wanna go to the ANTIQUE REPLICA range. See what they say......hehe Rob Voyles (CA) HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Shipping Of Firearms Date: 12 Aug 1999 19:34:59 -0400 *SNIP* < you can buy and sell and ship without a licence. L.A. Romsa I am a licensed firearms dealer, amoung other things... As such, I am NOT required to go thru any of the forms, or to registerr or report the transaction, if someone buys a BP firearm from me. They are exempt (so far) from any of the BATF rules. And, I can ship them to someone who is non FFL holder. Ad Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 12 Aug 1999 20:59:59 -0500 A few folks were having this discussion on the mlml a while back. Seems a particular gentleman was having the same problems you described. If I remember correctly a former U.P.S. employee stated that there are no regs. prohibiting shipping a firearm of the type you described, which is not a firearm as defined by law, but any particular U.P.S. employee who feels the need to be a pain in the arse about it can refuse to. The gentleman who couldn't get his gun shipped at the U.P.S counter just had a friend who had them regularly pickup at his place of business send it. Personally, I would go up the chain of command and politely but persistently let my dissatisfaction be known. Like I said, to my knowledge there are no U.P.S. Regs prohibiting shipping the firearm you mentioned, it was just a case of that particular counterman being a jerk. Good Luck, Tony Clark -----Original Message----- ; COHT ; ALRA >Hello List and friends, >Today I went up to a mailing center to send out a Bess that a brother has >purchased from me. The people behind the counter were very interested in the >weapon and others in the shop asked about what it was and how it worked. I >obliged, of course, and we all had a great few moments. > >When it was my turn in line, the person behind the counter said they would >have to check with UPS about the rules for guns and took down the info. >Well, I had it on good advice that there would be no problems. I had already >checked this out with others who had sent out guns (black powder) on a >regular basis. > >Would you believe the guy at UPS told me under no circumstances would they >send a gun of any...any...kind out to anyone but a licenced gun dealer. >We're talking even a B-B gun!! Are we talking agenda? As I said, I checked >this out. There are others who send guns out on a regular basis with no >license to others with no license. Of course, tomorrow I'm calling and >checking with what I hope will be a higher up. > >Trust me, I don't want to break any rules, but the gun will (!!!) go out to >the guy who bought it. (Don't worry, Deane, you'll get Bess by hook or >crook.) I just can't believe that things are coming down to this. Maybe I'm >just naive by wanting to be law-abiding and all. Maybe the lawyers and >politicians do have the right idea (and if one of you just happens to be one >of those, I'm not trying to start a fight) and just break or bend the rules >to suit themselves. > >Sorry if some may think this long commentary a little off-topic, but I felt >I needed to share my experience with all of you. I truly hope this is just >an isolated incident, but you never can tell with the way things are going. > >OK, now we can get back to business and those who wish may flame away!! > >James Sullivan ALRA #78, COHT > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Shipping Of Firearms Date: 12 Aug 1999 20:55:40 -0700 (PDT) On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, L. A. Romsa wrote: > It is my understanding that Blackpowder guns are NOT considered firearms! That is why you can buy and sell and ship without a licence. > L.A. Romsa I just shipped a 3-banded enfield of the muzzleloading variety about two months ago... no problems on this end.. and it was received by the fella I sent it too. Shipped and tracked by UPS Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 12 Aug 1999 21:30:33 -0500 As someone who ships flammable classification materials daily with UPS ma= ybe I can offer an insight as to what is going on. I ship under hazardous classifications which have many Byzantine twists a= nd turns as to whether it is a whole lot of trouble and extra expense or simple at the regular price. There are volumes of regulations regarding shipping and the counter emplo= yees often are only conversant with the basics. My account representative has= to conference with both me and her regional supervisor to figure it out. Wh= en you say gun you set off warning flags that require special shipping papers an= d requirements. =20 If I remember the original post correctly the shipper was showing it off = to the others standing at the counter. It is a gun. The worker only knows guns can't be shipped without FFL's. Gun can't be shipped! Go away! Folks who don= 't understand get freaky. =20 Technicalities elude the consciousness of many, its just too confusing fo= r those who only know fear and can't differentiate between a matchlock swiv= el gun and an MP-5. They can't comprehend and don't want to try. They have bee= n warned and are really afraid of making a mistake. If the piece was fully packaged and sealed with all labels ready to go.=20 Declare it an Antique Replica , Sporting Goods, or something less descrip= tive than -- gun -- and there should be no problem. The less descriptive the name of what you are shipping the less chance it= will disappear along the way. In the '70s I made custom bamboo, graphite and fiberglass fly fishing rods which never got to their destination unless I shipped them as "display case parts". As the counter worker may remember you from the last time go to one of th= e shipping and mailing service centers, pay a small extra fee and get Bess = on her way. John... At 08:59 PM 8/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >A few folks were having this discussion on=A0 the mlml a while back. See= ms a >particular gentleman was having the same problems you described. If I >remember correctly a former U.P.S. employee stated that there are no reg= s. >prohibiting shipping a firearm of the type you described, which is not a >firearm as defined by law, but any particular U.P.S. employee who feels = the >need to be a pain in the arse about it can refuse to. The gentleman who >couldn't get his gun shipped at the U.P.S counter just had a friend who = had >them regularly pickup at his place of business send it. >Personally, I would go up the chain of command and=A0 politely but >persistently let my dissatisfaction be known. Like I said, to my knowled= ge >there are no U.P.S. Regs prohibiting shipping the firearm you mentioned,= it >was just a case of that particular counterman being a jerk. > >Good Luck, >Tony Clark > > >-----Original Message----- >From: James Sullivan >To: Native List ; hist_text@lists.xmission.com >; COHT ; ALRA > >Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 11:27 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! > > >>Hello List and friends, >>Today I went up to a mailing center to send out a Bess that a brother h= as >>purchased from me. The people behind the counter were very interested i= n >the >>weapon and others in the shop asked about what it was and how it worked= . I >>obliged, of course, and we all had a great few moments. >> >>When it was my turn in line, the person behind the counter said they wo= uld >>have to check with UPS about the rules for guns and took down the info. >>Well, I had it on good advice that there would be no problems. I had >already >>checked this out with others who had sent out guns (black powder) on a >>regular basis. >> >>Would you believe the guy at UPS told me under no circumstances would t= hey >>send a gun of any...any...kind out to anyone but a licenced gun dealer. >>We're talking even a B-B gun!! Are we talking agenda? As I said, I chec= ked >>this out. There are others who send guns out on a regular basis with no >>license to others with no license. Of course, tomorrow I'm calling and >>checking with what I hope will be a higher up. >> >>Trust me, I don't want to break any rules, but the gun will (!!!) go ou= t to >>the guy who bought it. (Don't worry, Deane, you'll get Bess by hook or >>crook.) I just can't believe that things are coming down to this. Maybe= I'm >>just naive by wanting to be law-abiding and all. Maybe the lawyers and >>politicians do have the right idea (and if one of you just happens to b= e >one >>of those, I'm not trying to start a fight) and just break or bend the r= ules >>to suit themselves. >> >>Sorry if some may think this long commentary a little off-topic, but I = felt >>I needed to share my experience with all of you. I truly hope this is j= ust >>an isolated incident, but you never can tell with the way things are go= ing. >> >>OK, now we can get back to business and those who wish may flame away!! >> >>James Sullivan=A0=A0 ALRA #78, COHT >> >> >> >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steel wool Date: 13 Aug 1999 11:18:07 GMT I haven't seen a reply to this, so here's a couple of thoughts. Sandpaper was around at least by the 1700's. It was used in Williamsburg VA prior to the Revolutionary war. A great substitute, so I was told at the furniture maker there was sharkskin. Steel wool was invented much later. I _think_ it is a 20th century invention. I used to work summers at the Brillo factory in London, Ohio helping make tons of the stuff. We were told some of the equipment was from the original factory in Canada. Looking at the hardware I'd guessed it was from 1920-1940 vintage. Sorry, but I wasn't interested in 'old' things at the time. On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:23:08 -0500, you wrote: >Friends, >Does anyone out there know when steel wool and sandpaper were invented? > >TIA, >HBC > >**************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 >Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 >806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** > > Roy Parker We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks = to the internet, we know this is not true. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 13 Aug 1999 09:54:14 EDT In a message dated 99-08-12 00:28:46 EDT, you write: << Would you believe the guy at UPS told me under no circumstances would they send a gun of any...any...kind out to anyone but a licenced gun dealer. We're talking even a B-B gun!! Are we talking agenda >> Last look I had at the Fed Firearms regs said anything built before 1900 or a replica thereof, was considered a "non-gun", therfore no restrictions on shipping. Maybe we need to double check to be sure there hasn't been a change in the last 6 months. We have to be aware there are people who are so afraid or have such a hatred of firearms they ignore the laws, or are simply uninformed. I'd think any supervisor for UPS should know what they can ship & what they can't. I just checked the Fed Motor Carrier (DOT) regs, & there's nothing there on firearms -- lotsa stuff on black powder & caps (explosives), but not firearms. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steel wool Date: 13 Aug 1999 07:12:33 -0700 > On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:23:08 -0500, you wrote: > > >Friends, > >Does anyone out there know when steel wool and sandpaper were invented? > > > >TIA, > >HBC > > > >**************************************** > >Henry B. Crawford Henry, Mr. Vernon Bigsby at the Valley Forge Museum had written a paper probably 15-18 years ago on a coarse sharp edged screen that was used like sand paper in the smoothing of military weapons, could be flushed free of stock finish and reused. They had samples of the wire like material found at this site before the Rev. War. Have read in an old Bannerman Brothers catalog of the use of steel wool being used at or right after the Civil War; from the description it sounded like it was wire-like turnings from a lathes when making barrel, axles, etc. they used it to put a polish on the finished metal parts, like we would do today. Will look for both of these and send you copies of both. Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: Second Amendment web page Date: 13 Aug 1999 10:04:58 -0700 Just received an interesting page with this site on the Second Amendment - check it out. > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb697717 > > Interested in preserving, The Declaration of Independence, The Bill of > Rights, The Constitution of the United States of America, and all it?s > Amendments?? Later, Buck Conner dba / Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _____________________________________ NOW AVAILABLE a journal of the Fur Trade and early history of the times. AMM journal The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for T&LR is $20 for a year - quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. _____________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: MtMan-List: Shot size & small traps Date: 13 Aug 1999 12:19:02 -0600 Hello the list. I just finished boring out my .50 caliber CVA Plains Pitol to a .54 smoothbore. Any ideas what size shot I should use in it for Grouse here in SE Idaho? It has a very short barrel, 6 3/4" so won't be very accurate, but should work for pine hens. Also in BOB VI page 122 (?) it shows a small trap used for trapping small game for food. Has anyone seen any documentation on trappers in the Rockies, carrying a small trap for this use? Thanks in advance! Ron cstmzd@ida.net www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html "What part of: 'Thou Shalt not...' didn't you understand"? GOD ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Klesinger Subject: MtMan-List: Jim Baker Date: 13 Aug 1999 12:39:08 -0600 The Jim Baker Party web site is now open,,, check it out please reply to mailto:bill@klesinger.com http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html If anyone has information on Jim Baker the Mountain man please let me know as I will be glad to post it to the site. anyone that want me to link to their site I will be glad to do so just send the URL (web address) to me at: mailto:bill@klesinger.com thank bill klesinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Baker Date: 13 Aug 1999 20:35:27 -0400 Now Bill, that was a fine a collection of reprobates as I have EVER seen gathered in one place in all my life!! Kinda makes me afeared ta be lettin ma woman out by herself at night!! Ad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Klesinger Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Baker Date: 14 Aug 1999 05:21:56 -0600 You are supposed to put the dog out at night !!!! not the Woman... Or do i have it wrong ;-} ad.miller@mindspring.com wrote: > Now Bill, that was a fine a collection of reprobates as I have EVER seen > gathered in one place in all my life!! Kinda makes me afeared ta be lettin > ma woman out by herself at night!! > > Ad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Baker Date: 14 Aug 1999 12:10:47 -0400 Damn!! I knew I was doin something wrong!! heh... Now I don't have to smell that darn dogs breath at night and can have my woman in bed with me... Makes more sense that way.... Seriously... great site!! Loved all the pix... Sure wish it was still that way.... *sigh* Check my site.... http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216 I'd like to link with yours if thats ok... Ad Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Baker Date: 15 Aug 1999 05:38:59 -0700 On Fri, 13 August 1999, Bill Klesinger wrote: > The Jim Baker Party web site is now open,,, check it out please reply to mailto: bill@klesinger.com > > http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _____________________________________ Bill, Looks like you guys are going to "shine" when the Baker Party page is done, Buck told me it would be Colorado area only, those that came, passed through or had dealings in. That's an excellent idea for each state party to consider,(the Baker Party came up with a good one)it would sure make it much easier down the road for everyone when researching a location as to what went on. This is a neat way of looking at ones own state, thanks. Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Klesinger Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Baker Date: 15 Aug 1999 09:32:25 -0600 Thank you for the compliment. yes the site will feature any trapper, trader that was in the Colorado area during the fur trade. (the Colorado area is going to be ( anyplace South of Ft. Bridger, Ft. Laramie, West of central Kansas, and Northern Mexico) as per the time period 1810 to 1850. If anyone has information (text or picture's) of these people and would like to share it let me know. We will post it to the site and give credit for the information. Thank You Bill Jim Baker Party, AMM 1617 turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > On Fri, 13 August 1999, Bill Klesinger wrote: > > The Jim Baker Party web site is now open,,, check it out please reply to mailto: bill@klesinger.com > > > > http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > > > _____________________________________ > Bill, > > Looks like you guys are going to "shine" when the Baker Party page is done, Buck told me it would be Colorado area only, those that came, passed through or had dealings in. > > That's an excellent idea for each state party to consider,(the Baker Party came up with a good one)it would sure make it much easier down the road for everyone when researching a location as to what went on. This is a neat way of looking at ones own state, thanks. > > Turtle. > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Jackson" Subject: MtMan-List: Free Trappers Date: 15 Aug 1999 20:11:30 GMT Hello to the List. Can I get some info about the mountain men that were Free Trappers with no allegiance to the Fur Companies. Bill "MadJack" Jackson NMLRA # 046729 _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Klesinger Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free Trappers Date: 15 Aug 1999 15:36:08 -0600 That would be tuff to do as a good portion of them switched back and forth are you looking for a list of just free trappers? Bill Jackson wrote: > Hello to the List. > Can I get some info about the mountain men that were Free Trappers with no > allegiance to the Fur Companies. > > Bill "MadJack" Jackson > NMLRA # 046729 > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: You ain't gonna believe! Date: 15 Aug 1999 16:14:12 -0600 In Canada, our firearms laws are much tighter, so when Jeff ordered his North Star West trade gun kit from the Excited States a few years ago, we checked with Canada Customs to see what the procedure would be. They said that UPS would not be able to hand off the gun unless we could show them Jeff's FAC (Firearms Acquisition Certificate), and we'd have to go to the UPS or Customs office (can't recall which) to do that. So, fine, we got everything set & were waiting for the phone call to go in to the office. The kit got delivered right to our door, didn't need to show an FAC, even though we offered! A month or so after the gun was built, Jeff had a problem with the lock, so we shipped it back for repairs. We figured this time we wouldn't have to worry about fussing with the FAC etc. Nope! We had to go to the office, show the FAC, sign all sorts of papers, because a lock is a "receiver" (the part of the gun that makes it go bang), and therefore, all by itself, is considered a firearm. Very strange. BTW, haven't had any problems with the gun since. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Stephens Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Free Trappers Date: 15 Aug 1999 15:24:46 -0700 I believe that you will find that the job description "Free Trapper" then is similar to today's "Consultant": one between permanent employers. B'st'rd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: on the road again Date: 15 Aug 1999 19:31:59 -0500 Well it's that time again. Time to pack the truck and for the wife and I to head out and "get away from it all" for a while. Been lookin forward to this for a while. We will be leaving WI in early September and heading to Glacier Park or thereabouts on U.S. 2, then dropping down through Yellowstone to Jackson Hole or there abouts and heading east back home. Anyone have any suggestions on places to go, things to do,things to see? Thanks, Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Jackson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free Trappers Date: 16 Aug 1999 10:59:17 GMT Yes, I would like to know a few names of the Mountain Men that were Free Trappers. Would like to read their bio's Thanks >From: Bill Klesinger >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free Trappers >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:36:08 -0600 > >That would be tuff to do as a good portion of them switched back and forth > >are you looking for a list of just free trappers? > >Bill Jackson wrote: > > > Hello to the List. > > Can I get some info about the mountain men that were Free Trappers with >no > > allegiance to the Fur Companies. > > > > Bill "MadJack" Jackson > > NMLRA # 046729 > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Klesinger Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free Trappers Date: 16 Aug 1999 07:53:19 -0600 I dont know if you have been to this site ! but it is a good place to start ! http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ,, that is how to start research, find a man of interist, and do some reading. but I think you would enjoy reading Journal of a trapper (Osborne Russell) and about Joe Meek. Bill Jackson wrote: > Yes, I would like to know a few names of the Mountain Men that were Free > Trappers. Would like to read their bio's > Thanks > > >From: Bill Klesinger > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Free Trappers > >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:36:08 -0600 > > > >That would be tuff to do as a good portion of them switched back and forth > > > >are you looking for a list of just free trappers? > > > >Bill Jackson wrote: > > > > > Hello to the List. > > > Can I get some info about the mountain men that were Free Trappers with > >no > > > allegiance to the Fur Companies. > > > > > > Bill "MadJack" Jackson > > > NMLRA # 046729 > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: on the road again Date: 16 Aug 1999 08:06:45 -0700 Make sure when you get to Glacier you go up the west side, pass Polebridge, and camp at Kintla Lake. You shouldn't need or want to go anywhere else after you get there. Stop in Browning and visit Scrivers museum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rob Voyles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: on the road again Date: 16 Aug 1999 17:32:36 -0700 Tony, If I were you I would stop at the "Buffalo Bill Historical Center" about 50 miles from Yellowstone. I love that place!! They have everything from wheelocks to old west guns, And the Boone and Crocket Trophy room (BIGGG GAME!!) and much more. Here's the museums web site: http://www.bbhc.org/index.htm Rob Voyles (CA) -- On Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:31:59 northwoods wrote: >Well it's that time again. Time to pack the truck and for the wife and I to >head out and "get away from it all" for a while. Been lookin forward to this >for a while. We will be leaving WI in early September and heading to Glacier >Park or thereabouts on U.S. 2, then dropping down through Yellowstone to >Jackson Hole or there abouts and heading east back home. >Anyone have any suggestions on places to go, things to do,things to see? > >Thanks, >Tony Clark > > > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello the list... off topic Date: 16 Aug 1999 20:37:55 -0700 (PDT) John, Would like to send you a joke that someone forwarded to me for your son, but when I forwarded it, it came back undeliverable. Maybe I got the address wrong. Please e-mail me the correct address off line @ zaz@pacificnet.net Talk to you soon. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 At 06:36 PM 8/9/99 -0500, you wrote: > Ladies, gentlemen and brothers: I have a favor to ask. My boy is currently serving with the military in the army medical corps. stationed in Cosivo. He called last night and is very depressed with the situation there. Wounded, dying etc. I am putting together a 'care package' of sorts and would like to include some jokes to cheer the troops. If you have any lying around that you have found funny [racy or clean] please email them to me at stitchin@techullogy.com Thanks for your time and any help. Long John > > > > > > > > >
  Ladies, gentlemen and brothers: I >have a favor to ask. My boy is currently serving with the military in the army >medical corps. stationed in Cosivo.  He called last night and is very >depressed with the situation there. Wounded, dying etc. I am putting together a >'care package' of sorts and would like to include some jokes to cheer the >troops.  If you have any lying around that you have found funny [racy or >clean] please email them to me at href="mailto:stitchin@techullogy.com">stitchin@techullogy.com   >Thanks for your time and any help. Long John
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: concho@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Baker Date: 17 Aug 1999 08:46:33 -0700 > > On Fri, 13 August 1999, Bill Klesinger wrote: > > > The Jim Baker Party web site is now open,,, check it out please reply to mailto: bill@klesinger.com > > > > > > http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > > > > > _____________________________________ Wild Bill, What you have up so far really "shines", and what your members are capable of will just add to your site. Haven't seen many of the older ones for a period of time, Blanket Ass, The Capt., Pat or Buck. But know with the younger members and what I've been told by Buck, you got a good group. With writers like Pat, Mike, Stan and Buck - you'll have lots to share with everyone, good luck in a new venture for the Jim Baker Party. Oh, tell Buck to drag out some of the canoe trip pictures and Jim to get some of the horse pictures out - that would be interseting to just look and wish we had shared some of those trips. ___________________________________ Take care, folks D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + "One who favors the finer things in life" ___________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Klesinger Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Baker Date: 17 Aug 1999 10:20:30 -0600 I have been adding new pages all morning, more of a shell of what is to come thanks bill concho@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > On Fri, 13 August 1999, Bill Klesinger wrote: > > > > The Jim Baker Party web site is now open,,, check it out please reply to mailto: bill@klesinger.com > > > > > > > > http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > > > > > > > _____________________________________ > Wild Bill, > > What you have up so far really "shines", and what your members are capable of will just add to your site. > > Haven't seen many of the older ones for a period of time, Blanket Ass, The Capt., Pat or Buck. But know with the younger members and what I've been told by Buck, you got a good group. > > With writers like Pat, Mike, Stan and Buck - you'll have lots to share with everyone, good luck in a new venture for the Jim Baker Party. > > Oh, tell Buck to drag out some of the canoe trip pictures and Jim to get some of the horse pictures out - that would be interseting to just look and wish we had shared some of those trips. > > ___________________________________ > Take care, folks > > D.L."Concho"Smith + Washington, MO. + > "One who favors the finer things in life" > ___________________________________ > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Black reenactor needed Date: 17 Aug 1999 13:17:58 EDT We have a special need for a black reenactor who can portray Jean Baptiste Pointe DuSable at our Illinois and Michigan Canal Rendezvous this year. The dates are the weekend of Sept 11 and 12. A stipend is available. Please have this individual contact me directly at: imcanal@aol.com Thanks, Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Baker Date: 17 Aug 1999 14:35:43 EDT Concho-- Thanks for the kind words on the web site, but it's only just taking shape. At the rocky mtn college rondy this past weekend, we had a Jim Baker Party meeting about the web site. A number of articles and info specific to the "Colorado territory" fur trade will begin appearing. We're not at all competing with Dean's site but being more specific to our geography. Some of the information will show up soon, while others will take awhile to get written, but we're excited about it. Thanks again. Patrick Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Chief Factor William Sinclair Date: 17 Aug 1999 12:45:30 -0600 I'm doing some research into the family tree of NWC wintering partner Jean-Etienne Waden, and have run into a dead end. (Waden's not related, but looking into his descendants has turned up some neat stuff.) I'm looking for information on Chief Factor William Sinclair. He married Mary McKay, the step-daughter of Dr. John McLoughlin, but aside from that I know very little. Since it was quite possibly in Oregon during the Mountain Man era, I though somebody on this list might be able to help. I'd especially like to know when he married Mary, and anything about their children (especially Catharine), but background about his career would also be helpful. I'm also curious about his mother, and where he was born. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen Subject: MtMan-List: Catherine Sinclair/ Francis Ermatinger Date: 17 Aug 1999 13:23:47 -0600 Mrs. Gottfred, It appears that Catherine Sinclair (apparently always called Kate) married Francis Ermatinger. She was 26 years younger than Ermatinger and had been educated at Fort Gary (Winnepeg). They met while Kate was visiting her grandmother in Vancouver. The marriage was a private event and was conducted on 10 August 1841 at the house of James Birnie by a Protestant minister by the name of Frost. "1841 August 12. On the 9th I was very unexpectedly called upon to go to Fort George (Astoria) in order to administer the ordinance of Matrimony. On the 10th Mr. Francis Ermatinger and Miss Catherine Sinclair were married and after dinner of the same day they came down with us and continued here (mission of the Clatsops, near Warrenton) until this morning. Mr. Ermantinger is one of the Chief Traders of the Hudson's Bay Company, and Miss Sinclair is a daughter of a gentleman of the same service and a grand-daughter of John McLoughlin, Esqire. We had a very nice visit with them and hope their union may prove a blessing to them through life." (Oregon Historical Quaterly, XXXVI (1935), 338.) The following June at Fort Vancouver a daughter by the name of Francis Marie Ermatinger was born. She was an only child. "B. 94 Francis Marie Ermatinger, June 18, 1843 Francis Marie Ermatinger, born the 3rd of the present month. Legitimate daughter of Francis Ermatinger, Esq., Chief Trader of the Hon. H.B.Co., and Dame Catherine Sinclair, residents of Vancouver. Godfather, John McLoughlin, Esq., Chief Factor Hon. H.B.Co., and Godmother, Madame Marie Barclay. (signed) Maria Barclay, John McLoughlin, Francis Ermatinger, David McLoughlin, Dugald McTavish, Forbes Barclay. ANT. LANGLOIS, priest. " (Records of the St. James Church, Fort Vancouver) The above information was found in The Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West, Volume VIII, pages 157-173. I hope this information is of some assistance. YMHOS, David Mullen -- David & Evelyn Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 (505) 829-3212 email: dmullen@jemez.com Angela Gottfred wrote: > > I'm doing some research into the family tree of NWC wintering partner > Jean-Etienne Waden, and have run into a dead end. (Waden's not related, but > looking into his descendants has turned up some neat stuff.) > > I'm looking for information on Chief Factor William Sinclair. He married > Mary McKay, the step-daughter of Dr. John McLoughlin, but aside from that I > know very little. Since it was quite possibly in Oregon during the Mountain > Man era, I though somebody on this list might be able to help. I'd > especially like to know when he married Mary, and anything about their > children (especially Catharine), but background about his career would also > be helpful. I'm also curious about his mother, and where he was born. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: slightly off topic...print wanted Date: 17 Aug 1999 16:03:44 -0500 I am looking for a print called Trade from the Monongehela...Muzzle Blasts printed it I think. Shows fellows shooting at a chunk in front of a blacksmith shop. Had a copy and had it framed for 300 and gave it as a prize in a chunk gun match I sponsered. Now I want one for ME. :) Thanks all Mike Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: FWD: [Fwd: Fwd: Fw: Self Administered CPR If you are home alone Date: 17 Aug 1999 18:41:01 -0600 DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants >>> >>> CPR SELF ADMINISTERED >>> You want to pass this on to your family and friends. I sincerely hope = no >>one >>> encounters this situation in their life time but just in case. >>> >>> DO IT YOURSELF CPR >>> Let's say it's 4:17 p.m. and you're driving home, (alone of course) after >>an >>> unusually hard day on the job. Not only was the work load >>extraordinarily >>> heavy, you also had a disagreement with your boss, and no matter how hard >>you >>> tried he just wouldn't see your side of the situation. You're really >>upset >>> and the more you think about it the more up tight you become. >>> >>> All of a sudden you start experiencing severe pain in your chest that >>starts >>> to radiate out into your arm and up into your jaw. You are only about >>five >>> miles from the hospital nearest your home, unfortunately you don't = know >>if >>> you'll be able to make it that far. >>> >>> What can you do? You've been trained in CPR but the guy that taught = the >>> course neglected to tell you how to perform it on yourself. >>> >>> HOW TO SURVIVE A HEART ATTACK WHEN ALONE >>> >>> (Since many people are alone when they suffer a heart attack, this >>article >>> seemed in order.) Without help the person whose heart stops beating >>properly >>> and who begins to feel Faint, has only about 10 seconds left before >>losing >>> consciousness. However, these victims can help themselves by coughing >>> repeatedly and very vigorously. A deep breath should be taken before each >> >>> cough, and the cough must be deep and prolonged, as when producing sputum >> >>> from deep inside the chest. A breath and a cough must be repeated = about >>every >>> two seconds without let up until help arrives, or until the heart is felt >>to >>> be beating normally again. Deep breaths get oxygen into the lungs and >> >>> coughing movements squeeze the heart and keep the blood circulating. = The >>> squeezing pressure on the heart also helps it regain normal rhythm. = In >>this >>> way, heart attack victims can get to a phone and, between breaths, = call >>for >>> help. >>> >>> Tell as many other people as possible about this, it could save their >>lives! >>> >>> From >>> Health Cares, Rochester General Hospital via Chapter 240s newsletter >>> AND THE BEAT GOES ON... >>> (reprint from The Mended Hearts, Inc. publication, Heart Response) >>> >>> [Unable to display image] >>> >> --part4_8d9eb9df.24cbb09c_boundary-- --part3_8d9eb9df.24cbdc47_boundary-- --part2_8d9eb9df.24cbf90e_boundary-- --part1_8d9eb9df.24ce4172_boundary-- --WebTV-Mail-543-5814-- --0-1957747793-934761315=3D:386-- RFC822 header Received: from uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com [209.54.108.174] by mail.market1.= com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A3D918A500F2; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:44:41 -0600 Received: from egate-ut2.uswc.uswest.com (egate-ut2.uswc.uswest.com [148.= 157.122.199]) by uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26964 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:44:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from centhub.mnet.uswest.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by egate-= ut2.uswc.uswest.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA04393 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:44:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from netmail5.uswc.uswest.com (netmail5.uswc.uswest.com [151.= 117.75.71]) by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id = IAA14956 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:44:46 -0600 Received: from uswest.com ([151.116.59.242]) by netmail5.uswc.uswest.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA47E8; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:44:38 -0600 Message-ID: <37B8232D.439CF9BE@uswest.com> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:41:49 -0600 From: "Kristy Hoover" Organization: U S WEST Wireless, LCC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-USWC0820 (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: alan , angie , anne , bev , dad , delevan , corey , erica , jana , jen , jennifer , jocelyn , kat , marshall , mike , missy , noel , phyllis & don , sandy , stephanie , tonia , wendy Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Fw: Self Administered CPR If you are home alone - = Important] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"------------= 51CA691546107B21E09AD927" X-RCPT-TO: X-UIDL: 1536 Status: U = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: slightly off topic...print wanted Date: 17 Aug 1999 18:00:03 -0700 Mike Rock, I have a copy of this print. It is a little faded, I imagine, from years of hanging. If you really want it I would be willing to trade ?. Contact me off line. PS I'm a reasonable guy. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Flint Edge Date: 17 Aug 1999 22:29:34 -0400 Okay, it's time for my next pilgrim question. How does one restore the keen edge of the gunflint? There are many sites on knapping in general but they are aimed at creating points. I know the principal is the same but the process seems much finer for gunflints. The flints I have (English gray) appear cut at first glance but upon close scrutiny are actually split as evidenced by the slightly concave surface indicating a spall. They do not seem to hold up well at all, offering only 20 or so strikes before dull to the point of no sparks. My meager efforts so far, although some edge is restored, result an a flint that is jagged and way too short. When new, the fully seated flint is within 1/16" of the frizzen face at half cock. Any advice besides buying a pile of flints? Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint Edge Date: 17 Aug 1999 22:12:30 -0500 As with most things from Europe the quality is specious at best and often= no more than simple hyperbole. They've refined hornswaggling, what they sti= ll refer to as, Colonists (us) for more than 3 centuries now into a fine art form. I've never been impressed with English black or French brown flint= .=20 Mostly expensive. I use rocks I find on the ground, I've had flints of jasper, chert, Texas= grey and other rocks last for hundreds of sparks without bothering to sharpen = the edge. Making points is much more technical than flints to shoot with. If they= need sharpening block the touchhole, and strike the edge square on with a non- sparking material like a piece of antler, a nifty brass hammer, or anothe= r rock; flaking off slivers to restore the edge. It is more technique than= how hard you hit. Buy flints? Why? There are so many available for free just laying aroun= d.=20 Broken arrowheads work well. Take your striker and find something that t= hrows hot spark then knap off a hunk or several about the right size for your musket. John... At 10:29 PM 8/17/99 -0400, you wrote: >Okay, it's time for my next pilgrim question.=A0 How does one restore th= e >keen edge of the gunflint?=A0=A0 There are many sites >on knapping in general but they are aimed at creating points.=A0 I know >the principal is the same but the process seems much >finer for gunflints.=A0 The flints I have (English gray) appear cut at >first glance but upon close scrutiny are actually split as >evidenced by the slightly concave surface indicating a spall.=A0 They do >not seem to hold up well at all, offering only 20 or >so strikes before dull to the point of no sparks.=A0=A0 My meager effort= s so >far, although some edge is restored, result an a flint >that is jagged and way too short.=A0 When new, the fully seated flint is >within 1/16" of the frizzen face at half cock.=A0=A0 Any advice besides >buying a pile of flints? > >Tom >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint Edge Date: 17 Aug 1999 22:06:42 -0700 > Okay, it's time for my next pilgrim question. How does one restore the > keen edge of the gunflint I'm not a flinlock shooter, but I have seen people cock the hammer while holding the frizzen tight against the flint; in other words, dragging the flint backwards hard against the frizzen face. Doing this a few times seems to break small chips off the top of the flint temporarily restoring a new edge. Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint Edge Date: 18 Aug 1999 11:36:41 -0400 >How does one restore the >keen edge of the gunflint? Tom, you might want to look at the FAQ "Tuning the Flintlock" on the MLML Home Page, URL below. Down near the bottom of the article there is a picture of a simple tool, made from a nail, which will do the sharpening very easily and well. Instructions are there. I've used the tool a fair bit, and would be glad to answer any questions you have about it or its use. Bob Bob Spencer Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James A Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Snake stick game Date: 18 Aug 1999 10:42:55 -0500 Some one on a scout group asked how to play the snake stick game, where there are 5 sticks. I figured someone here would know the rules and scoring. Thanks, Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snake stick game Date: 18 Aug 1999 09:46:10 +0000 James A Lindberg wrote: > Some one on a scout group asked how to play the snake stick game, where > there are 5 sticks. I figured someone here would know the rules and > scoring. Jim, I have a set of "sticks" made of small flat pieces of bone about four fingers wide and the width and thickness of a popsicle stick. This is what is in "Feminine Furtrade Fashions" by K. Wilson and J. Hanson. Wish my scanner was working! First two sticks.......the snake or zigzag (two per set; have blank reverses and a zigzag pattern the length of the face side. Second stick......Chief or "man" - also has four grooves in back. Face side is a string of closely spaced black dots (like dice have) running the length of the stick on the face side with two closely spaced parallel lines of dots running across the width of the face at the mid point (the lengthwise dots run up to these two lines of cross wise dots but not across them.). Third stick.........the "four"- has a blank reverse. The face has five sets of four slashes made across the stick (one at each end of the stick, one in the middle and one set between each end set and the middle set, for a total of five sets) There is a black dot centered between each set of slash marks for a total of four dots. Called the Stave Game: Popular among Northern Plains tribes, there are four bone or wood dice; 2 'snakes', 1 'chief', and 1 'four'. The player throws the dice, held vertically, ahead on a blanket. A game is 12 points. Rules the same as for dice. Scoring is as follows: 3 blank and 1 chief= 6 points; 3 blank and chiefs back= 3 points; 2 snakes, 1 chief, and 1 four= 2 points; 2 blank, 1 four, and chiefs back= 1 point; all other combinations = 0 points. A long but fun game. When no points are scored the next player tosses. There was no reference as to who got to go first but I would think you would make one free toss each and whomever throws the most points with that toss starts off first for the actual game. I don't know of any other game like this that uses 5 sticks so I can only assume this is the one you were referring to. Hope this helps. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > Thanks, > > Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snake stick game Date: 18 Aug 1999 10:13:55 +0000 James A Lindberg wrote: > Some one on a scout group asked how to play the snake stick game, where > there are 5 sticks. I figured someone here would know the rules and > scoring. Jim, I just thought of another game that I am sure the scouts would like as much as the Stave game or stick game. It is a mountain man game that we may have invented in this modern era. The "Hairy Lizards" and the NW Brigade AMM used to play it a lot but I think we may have matured some since then. The "Snort Game"....... Have each player carve a small plug of his or (unlikely it will happen) her own design that will fit up one nostril. I favor a plug that is fairly tight in the "bore" and about 1/2 inch long. Two players set cross legged opposite each other with (preferably) a wide brimmed hat turned upside down between them. Each player in turn puts their plug in a preferred nostril and with an index finger plugging the opposite nostril, "snorts" their plug into the crown of the hat. If both players score a hit, they continue to play but must move back an even amount of distance. The length is not critical but about a foot to 18" at a time seems to work and soon separates the men from the boys, so to speak. Upon a miss by either player, that player gets up and surrenders his/her position to a challenger. Bets may be made by players or bystanders on each "short of the plug". The game can also be played while both players are standing and they may start sitting or standing by mutual agreement but it is more fun to be sitting on the ground unless it is early spring or early winter when the ground is wet. You will find that you may need to make a new snort plug for each outing since they tend to dry out and loose size which tends to make for a loose fit in the bore which of course makes for a loss of accuracy. I also don't think Dutch Shoultz' accuracy system as made famous on the MLML list will work with this game. I also think it helps to train for this game ahead of time by using the snorting method to expel nasal mucus which builds strong lungs and more importantly, muscle control. Using a larger and larger digit to cleans your nostril will help prepare it for heavier plugs and seems to straighten out the passages for better accuracy. Though the scouts would not be able to partake, a good game strategy would include the consumption of just the right amount of "Spiritous Liquors". The amount consumed being the tricky part. One must gage the optimum quantity and I firmly believe too, that type of "Spirits" is important. I have had good results with "Capt. Morgans Spiced Rum" but others have good results with other concoctions. I don't know if one would get any benefit from consuming large quantities of things like "Gator Aid" or "Kool Aid" but if you have a runny sinus infection, I believe you have an edge on the competition.I personally have to stay away from foods of the "pepper family" prior to a game since they make me plug up with a dry congestion resulting in my need to breath through my mouth.. I would try to use the other persons hat though. Well, I would try to use their hat in any case, truth be known. I hope this has been of additional help to you in your task of keeping adolescents entertained in a relatively none destructive way. I would caution you to advise your kids to not take the knowledge of this game home with them if they wish to ever be allowed back. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT Self Administered CPR If you are home alone Date: 18 Aug 1999 13:15:51 EDT not to be contrary, but I was just this morning reading a report that this may be more incorrect information traveling the internet... here's the scoop according to Dr. Mara McErlean, Professor of Emergency Medicine, Albany Medical College, reporting on preliminary results of a study by the AMA.... There is currently NO KNOWN BENEFIT from attempting 'COUGH CPR" and it may actually cause more heart damage. According to the AMA, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO IF ALONE IS TAKE AN ASPIRIN while you are waiting for trained help; they recommend that anybody at risk for heart attack or stroke always carry an aspirin with them... (taken from Bottom Line Personal 9/1/99) Barn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Vince Stevens" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: on the road again Date: 18 Aug 1999 11:01:24 -0700 Tony, If you have the time stop by the new Lewis & Clark Interpretive Center in Great Falls, MT. It's worth the $5 admission fee just to see the movie they show about the expedition. Giant Springs (the spring described by Lewis(?)) is just a short distance down the road. The waters are running a little low this time of year, but the the falls and the reason for the month long portage are still pretty impressive. Vince -- HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint Edge Date: 18 Aug 1999 17:55:10 -0700 Tom, Both John and Bob are right, sorta, If you live in the right part of the country it is real easy to find flints or rocks that will work just fine as gun flints. Unfortunately I don't. Rocks that will throw a spark are real scarce in northeast Texas. You can go 100 to 150 mi. in any direction and find plenty. I buy mine usually from Track of The Wolf, and no, I don't own part of the outfit. I just seem to get better quality from them. By that I mean when I order x number dozen flints, I get more good useable flints and less culls. Another option is to buy them at a rendezvous where you can pick and choose and get nothing but the primo flints that you really like. I prefer the black English flints. It sounds like the ones you have are the sawed flints. Even though there is a concave side to them, the way you describe them as being gray and looking like they were sawed, I'll bet they are sawed flints, or maybe the ones that are partially sawed. I have never had any luck at all with those things. John is right, if you are in the right area you can pickup better flints off the ground than you can buy. I have a friend who goes to west Texas regularly, and he always brings back a pocket full of chert. He can get 50 to a 100 shots easy off of a piece of it. The method of knapping a gun flint that Bob is speaking of works really well for a beginner. A common mistake is to strike the flint at the wrong angle and to hit it too hard, thus chipping off more of the edge than is necessary, but if you use a tool like he is speaking of, it eliminates the problem. You will also end up with a more uniform edge. Another thing to consider is the fact that some locks just eat flints. It has to do with the geometry of the lock. You might want to get a gunsmith or a old hand with flintlocks to take at your lock. There might be something that could be done to it inexpensively that would help. Keep them sparks a flyin ! BE SAFE HAVE FUN Pendleton -----Original Message----- As with most things from Europe the quality is specious at best and often no more than simple hyperbole. They've refined hornswaggling, what they still refer to as, Colonists (us) for more than 3 centuries now into a fine art form. I've never been impressed with English black or French brown flint. Mostly expensive. I use r