From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Mr. Rago & how to contact "ole Leon" from ATL Date: 01 Oct 2000 08:45:44 EDT Frank, I appreciate your response. Yours and others like it provide a weath of "how to" to beginners like myself! Thanks. Could you tell me how to contact "ole Leon"..whom you say is agreat source of good information? C. Kent "HikinOnThru" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sashes Date: 01 Oct 2000 07:50:40 -0600 Jim Lindberg wrote: >I always heard the three top killers of voyageurs was drowning, hernias >and emphasema (sp). AAAGH! Sorry, Jim, that's one of my pet peeves. I've seen this claim in many places, too, but my research just doesn't back up hernia as a cause of death in voyageurs. In all my reading, I've come across only two cases of hernias (called 'rupture' back then), both non-fatal. The first was a mangeur du lard, in his first season, just a short distance out of Lachine (near Montreal)--he was sent home. The second was an experienced voyageur, who was strongly suspected by his boss of malingering. The two main causes of death amongst voyageurs seem to have been drowning and starvation, with disease and murder/fatal accidents (not drowning) trailing behind. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Rago & how to contact "ole Leon" from ATL Date: 01 Oct 2000 10:42:54 -0400 C. Kent, Email me off line and I will give you his phone number. As soon as CVA updates their webpage Leon will have a picture and a bio. featured on it. He also writes for a few outdoor mags. He knows his stuff when it comes to blackpowder. Frank V. Rago ikon@mindspring.com > Frank, > > I appreciate your response. Yours and others like it provide a weath of "how > to" to beginners like myself! Thanks. > > Could you tell me how to contact "ole Leon"..whom you say is agreat source of > good information? > > C. Kent > "HikinOnThru" > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Industrial Revolution Date: 01 Oct 2000 16:53:21 EDT harddog@mediaone.net writes: > Yes, you are correct that the Industrial Revolution was underway during the > fur trade era. It spread here from England and Europe. I just took exception > with the old notion that we can credit Eli Whitney with the actual > development of interchangeable parts. Randy, Whitney is credited with the "idea" of a uniformity system, aka the Whitney system. It dealt with much more than just interchangeable parts. Whitney, North, and Hall all achieved parts interchangeability in their military contracts. The title which has been accorded to Whitney is "The Father of our Mass Production Methods." An early writer states........there have not been wanting persons who have endeavored to take from Mr. Whitney, the credit of originating the uniformity system and making it a practical success at the beginning of this century, thus leading the van of progress of the mechanical arts, and laying the foundations for the enormous industry development of the ninteenth century. A letter to Mr. Wolcott, then Sec'y of the Treasury, May, 1798, contains the important paragraph--"I am persuaded that machinery moved by water power adapted to this business would greatly diminish the labor and facilitate the manufacture of this article (muskets). Machines for forging, rolling, floating, boring, grinding, polishing, etc., may all be made use of to advantage." All work prior to that time was achieved by individual gunsmiths handmaking each part, or lots of parts, and hand assembling them into muskets or pistols. Nothing could be interchanged. Up to this point, the manufacture of military firearms in quantity had not been undertaken in this country. The arms used in the Rev. war had been obtained from France. There were no skilled workmen in this country to undertake the task of producing large quantities of firearms. Both North and Hall presented guns with interchangeable parts around 181?. They were jig filed, but made in the conventional manner of the time. They were built from arsenal supplied "pattern" guns, which were not uniform in themselves. A common ploy was to order the pattern guns in lots of ten, so that they could find at least one gun that the parts would interchange with. Whitney's system was not fully implemented in the firearms industry until around 1850, by which time the required machinery which could be operated by unskilled labor was in wide usage. As an aside, concerning the "browning" of Northwest Trade guns, I ran across a blurb which stated that the Model 1822 was the first US musket to be browned, though this browning treatment had been applied to both rifles and pistols prior to its use on this musket. The method was unsuccessful and was discontinued. Those arms made prior to 1831 are referred to as "model 1822 browned" and those made subsequent to 1831 are referred to as "model 1822 bright." Whitney also engineered the brass replacement pan to combat the erosion that was being experienced with those locks using steel pans. For a complete history of early US contract firearms building, and more on Whitney, refer to "The Whitney Firearms" by Claud Fuller including an account of our early contract system, and the other So-called Private Armorers--Simeon North, Lemeul Pomeroy, Nathan Starr, Asa Waters, and Henry Deringer. It was published in 1946, and is rare and pricey now, but it contains tons of facsimiles of original military contracts and letters. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Industrial revolution - interchangeable parts Date: 01 Oct 2000 18:04:43 -0500 Dave, For all that you have said, Eli Whitney did not achieve interchangeability of parts with his government contracts for muskets. Did he institute a method of making musket parts by water powered machines? Yes! Did he make muskets for the government that had interchangeable parts? No! As I said before he talked a good game about interchangeable parts for muskets. This talk and the fact that the Secretary of the Treasury, Oliver Wolcott, was a fellow Yale graduate and personal friend and Thomas Jefferson was a personal friend probably got him the contract to produce 10,000 muskets for the government. This was the largest contract awarded at the time and Whitney had no experience as a gunmaker nor did he have any facility at all to produce muskets. Whitney's "new system", (1799), was based on division of labor and had been used for many years in Europe before Whitney ever mentioned it on this continent. The concept of "division of Labor" was discussed by Adam Smith in his book "Wealth of Nations" published in 1776. Whitneys new system used filing jigs and drilling templates, but did not produce muskets that had interchangeable parts. Tests have shown that if you randomly take 10 muskets produced by Whitney, very few if any of the parts will interchange. Arms historians feel that true interchangeability of parts did not become fact until 1827 at the highly mechanized Harpers Ferry Arsenal. This is two years after Eli Whitney died. True interchangeability of parts depends on percision machines of which Eli Whitney had none. Even the percision Whitney milling machine that he is credited with inventing was not made until after his death and then by his two nephews and his son Eli Whitney II. The whole idea for the percision milling machine was stolen from Simeon North's gun factory and Eli Whitney only made some improvements in design. His whole system should be classified a failure because his contract was for 10,000 muskets to be produced and delivered in 28 months and Whitney finally delivered the final shipment of the 10,000 muskets some ten years after the signing of the contract. The payment for the contract was $134,000.00 of which Whitney profited only $2,500.00. If Whitney hadn't have been personal friends with the Secretary of the Treasurey, Oliver Wolcott and also Thomas Jefferson, he probably would have been thrown in prison for defrauding the government. Randy Hedden ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: RE: MtMan-List: here too Date: 01 Oct 2000 18:23:05 -0700 On Sat, 30 September 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > Hi Lanny what history list in addition to this AMM list are you talking > about? Club membership is one thing. Hawk's experience as you acknowledge > that supercedes that. Are those who went to Fort Union back on the list > yet? Did you go? Understanding the Metis is understanding the cornerstone > of gaining an understanding the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. > > Is Randy from Fort Union Trading Post still on this list? And findly where > is Buck? > > > Old Walt lurking in his Badgerhole _____________________________________________________ I believe Randy is from Ft. Union area, Buck is from Green Mountain Colo. - should have gotten home last night from a long deserved vacation, first one his wife said that they had together in 10 years. I'm surprised he still able to walk being the case, she's a good shot and swings a mean frying pan. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 01 Oct 2000 07:34:51 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C02B7A.15788BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife = should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it to hold it under the = belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep hearing how you can tuck it = under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without = being tied on in some way. =20 =20 To clarify, the knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath = does not stay under a leather belt without a thong or tie worth beans. = As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting = them in a belt. =20 As to the hat I can agree that the fit can make a lot of difference but = my money still goes that anybody who kept their hat long did it with a = stampede strap, whether Miller shows them or not. Call it experimental = history. =20 =20 Regards WY ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C02B7A.15788BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maybe I should leave this alone but = Mike if you=20 agree that the knife should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it = to hold=20 it under the belt you have not agreed with Walt.  I keep hearing = how you=20 can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me = without=20 being tied on in some way.   
 
To clarify, the knife does not fall out = of the=20 sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a = thong =20 or tie worth beans.  As to the Indians I believe they used neck = sheaths as=20 much as putting them in a belt. 
 
As to the hat I can agree that the fit = can make a=20 lot of difference but my money still goes that anybody who kept their = hat long=20 did it with a stampede strap, whether Miller shows them or not.  = Call it=20 experimental history.  
 
Regards
WY
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C02B7A.15788BC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 01 Oct 2000 22:20:53 -0600 --------------C44E3E525B0B0833CBB55921 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn, I guess I tie (pardon the pun) tthe two together. In days past, when I had a knife and the sheath fall out, most of the time the knife came out too. Tension between the body and sash or belt with the shealth is supposed to hold it in place. But bending over, getting on horses and innumerable other situations helps work the shealth free. That is why I use a small tie on sheath, it helps with both problems. A tie is a small detail when it came to water colors and pencil drawings, which I think was just left out or covered up. I guess the assumption that Indians used to keep knives in place without wangs might need more looking into. George Caltin ( "Letters and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of North American Indians" volume one, figure 99) shows a page of detailed drawings of knives, hawks and clubs. One of the few that you will find. He draws two knives at the top of the page and one of them has leather shealth (with the hair still on) and a small tie to the side. My comments were only to be a help with a problem we all face at some time. As far as hats staying on: it has taken me over two years to get my felt, wide brim hat to stay on. And I still haven't figured out if the hat molded to my head or my head to the hat. But I still use a leather wang on that too. Tall horses or sloping hill sides always gets the best of me when it comes to hats and other misc. things. mike. Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife > should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it to hold it under the > belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep hearing how you can tuck > it under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without > being tied on in some way. To clarify, the knife does not fall out of > the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a > thong or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I believe they used neck > sheaths as much as putting them in a belt. As to the hat I can agree > that the fit can make a lot of difference but my money still goes that > anybody who kept their hat long did it with a stampede strap, whether > Miller shows them or not. Call it experimental history. RegardsWY --------------C44E3E525B0B0833CBB55921 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn,
    I guess I tie (pardon the pun) tthe two together. In days past, when I had
a knife and the sheath fall out, most of the time the knife came out
too. Tension between the body and sash or belt with the shealth is supposed
to hold it in place. But bending over, getting on horses and innumerable
other situations helps work the shealth free. That is why I use a small
tie on sheath, it helps with both problems. A tie is a small detail when it came
to water colors and pencil drawings, which I think was just left out or covered
up.
    I guess the assumption that Indians used to keep knives in place
without wangs might need more looking into. George Caltin ( "Letters
and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of North American
Indians" volume one, figure 99) shows a page of detailed drawings of knives,
hawks and clubs. One of the few that you will find. He draws two knives at
the top of the page and one of them has leather shealth (with the hair still on) and a
small tie to the side.
    My comments were only to be a help with a problem we all face at some time.
As far as hats staying on: it has taken me over two years to get my felt, wide brim
hat to stay on. And I still haven't figured out if the hat molded to my head or my
head to the hat. But I still use a leather wang on that too. Tall horses or sloping
hill sides always gets the best of me when it comes to hats and other misc. things.
                                                mike.

Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it to hold it under the belt you have not agreed with Walt.  I keep hearing how you can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without being tied on in some way. To clarify, the knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a thong  or tie worth beans.  As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting them in a belt. As to the hat I can agree that the fit can make a lot of difference but my money still goes that anybody who kept their hat long did it with a stampede strap, whether Miller shows them or not.  Call it experimental history. RegardsWY
--------------C44E3E525B0B0833CBB55921-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 01 Oct 2000 20:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Need to clarify my earlier post. The belt or sash goes through a slit in the rawhide sheath and OVER the sheathed knife. The slit holds the sheath and the belt/sash maintains tension/pressure over the blade. Twarn't a minor detail I left out; sorry. --- Mike Moore wrote: > Wynn, > I guess I tie (pardon the pun) tthe two > together. In days past, when > I had > a knife and the sheath fall out, most of the time > the knife came out > too. Tension between the body and sash or belt with > the shealth is > supposed > to hold it in place. But bending over, getting on > horses and innumerable > > other situations helps work the shealth free. That > is why I use a small > tie on sheath, it helps with both problems. A tie is > a small detail when > it came > to water colors and pencil drawings, which I think > was just left out or > covered > up. > I guess the assumption that Indians used to keep > knives in place > without wangs might need more looking into. George > Caltin ( "Letters > and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of > North American > Indians" volume one, figure 99) shows a page of > detailed drawings of > knives, > hawks and clubs. One of the few that you will find. > He draws two knives > at > the top of the page and one of them has leather > shealth (with the hair > still on) and a > small tie to the side. > My comments were only to be a help with a > problem we all face at > some time. > As far as hats staying on: it has taken me over two > years to get my > felt, wide brim > hat to stay on. And I still haven't figured out if > the hat molded to my > head or my > head to the hat. But I still use a leather wang on > that too. Tall horses > or sloping > hill sides always gets the best of me when it comes > to hats and other > misc. things. > > mike. > > Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > > Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you > agree that the knife > > should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it > to hold it under the > > belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep > hearing how you can tuck > > it under and it will not fall out, but it does not > stay for me without > > being tied on in some way. To clarify, the knife > does not fall out of > > the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a > leather belt without a > > thong or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I > believe they used neck > > sheaths as much as putting them in a belt. As to > the hat I can agree > > that the fit can make a lot of difference but my > money still goes that > > anybody who kept their hat long did it with a > stampede strap, whether > > Miller shows them or not. Call it experimental > history. RegardsWY > ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 01 Oct 2000 22:16:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C02BF5.37124520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it to hold it under the belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep hearing how you can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without being tied on in some way. To clarify, the knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a thong or tie worth beans. As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting them in a belt. As to the hat I can agree that the fit can make a lot of difference but my money still goes that anybody who kept their hat long did it with a stampede strap, whether Miller shows them or not. Call it experimental history. Regards WY No reason to leave this alone. I’m not up to arguing. I have learned over time what it takes to keep my belt knife where I want it. And on a regular everyday basis the knife stays put in raw hide covered with brain tan moose. In wearing a sash over the last ten years or so has given me the time to figure out how to tuck the knife sheath through one of the two wraps around of the sash and twist the knife sheath over the other sash wrap and lock it under the other one. Try running with a neck sheath or up on horse back bouncing around. Could be hard on teeth. I think neck sheaths were tucked inside shirts. When worn on the out side it was parade rest. Rough movement would not swing it up to hit you in the face. Out here we call straps like that chokers. I have been around horsemen all my life and I have never know one to wear one. A good part of keeping your hat on beside a good fit is holding you head right. Mine feels like a helmet. I use it to protect my face. Of course I am talking Montana and Alaska here because I have never ridden in any other place. I don’t doubt that they were never used. Just never did need one. Sometime a feller looses his hat. Most of the time he can go back and get it. Wind and all. Take care if you use one. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C02BF5.37124520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Maybe I should = leave this alone but Mike if you agree that the knife should stay in the belt but = you put a thong on it to hold it under the belt you have not agreed with = Walt.  I keep hearing how you can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but it = does not stay for me without being tied on in some = way.   

 

To clarify, the = knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath does not stay under a = leather belt without a thong  or tie worth beans.  As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting them in a belt.  =

 

As to the hat I = can agree that the fit can make a lot of difference but my money still goes that = anybody who kept their hat long did it with a stampede strap, whether Miller = shows them or not.  Call it experimental history.   =

 

Regards

WY<= font color=3Dnavy>

 

No= reason to leave this alone.  = I’m not up to arguing.  I have learned = over time what it takes to keep my belt knife where I want it.  And on a regular everyday basis the knife stays put = in raw hide covered with brain tan moose.  In wearing a sash over the last ten years or so has given me the = time to figure out how to tuck the knife sheath through one of the two wraps = around of the sash and twist the knife sheath over the other sash wrap and lock it = under the other one.  =

 

Tr= y running with a neck sheath or up on horse back bouncing around.  Could be hard on teeth.  I think neck sheaths were = tucked inside shirts.  When worn on the = out side it was parade rest.  Rough = movement would not swing it up to hit you in the = face.

 

Ou= t here we call straps like that chokers.  I have been around horsemen all my life and I have never know one = to wear one.  A good part of = keeping your hat on beside a good fit is holding you head right.  Mine feels like a helmet.  I use it to protect my = face.  Of course I am talking Montana = and Alaska here because I have never ridden in any other place.  =

 

I = don’t doubt that they were never used.  Just never did need one.  Sometime a feller looses his hat.  Most of the time he can go back and get it.  Wind and all.

 

Ta= ke care if you use one.

 

Wa= lt

Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837

Yellowsto= ne Canoe Camp

On the = Lewis & Clark Trail

Park = City, Montana

<= span class=3DEmailStyle15> 

 <= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C02BF5.37124520-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 02 Oct 2000 07:32:47 -0500 No problemo here. I had thought that this list belonged to the AMM. I was mistaken. First time in my life. My contributions will continue to be few, however, as when it comes to RMFT my knowledge is limited. I do enjoy reading the input and learning. The list has changed some of my opinions on various items. I won't use some of the "trigger" words because of fear of starting another avalanche. When the time comes to attend an r'vous that is strick AMM style juried, I guess I'll have to suffer a tired back without benefit of a chair. But where I won't get my hair lifted for doin' it, I guarantee I will have somethin' to set the old bones in. Regards to this e-campfire, Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HawkerAmm@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe MtMan List Date: 02 Oct 2000 08:45:50 EDT Dean, Please unsubscribe. Thank you. YF&B, Bob ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: TENT FOR SALE Date: 02 Oct 2000 14:46:18 -0400 I have a PANTHER PRIMITIVE 12'x14' wall tent (5' walls) for sale if anyone is interested. It's been used approximately 4 times. Made of SUNFORAGER MARINE CANVASS. In their latest catalog, it lists for $455, plus $38 for the sod cloth. I'm selling mine for $375 plus shipping (approx. 60#). Anyone interested, contact me off list or call me at 304-445.2932. Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 02 Oct 2000 14:36:51 -0500 Why do you think this is off topic?? It's the kind of stuff we like to see. Oh well. OK, my answer is spit. Plain old mouth moisture. I carry a canteen of water with me on the firing line and on survival walks so that my mouth stays moist. The first thing I do is put a patch in my mouth between shots so that it's good and wet when I need it. It also helps to have a cleaning rod with oiled cleaning patch and swab the bore between shots. I use any machine oil (3 in 1, WD-40, or even 2 stroke motor oil.) The only other thing might be to take a bore brush to the bore after maybe 10 shots. Never had a problem. HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: MtMan-List: a contact for John Luzader? Date: 02 Oct 2000 20:22:33 GMT Gentlemen & Ladies, Does anyone out there know how to get ahold of Mr. John Luzader? I worked with him in the trade room at Bent's this summer and wanted to get some info from him...any help is appreciated- Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Fluhmann" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: OT - Muzzleloader Oil-Grease Date: 01 Oct 2000 17:10:23 -0500 Hey Henry ol' friend, I've seen ya shoot and you suck at it....... and I know for a fact that it ain't water in that gourd of yours... just kiddin' Henry, but I just couldn't resist....... BTW...sorry that I missed you Saturday at Fort Concho.... For what it's worth, I use bees wax and olive oil for a lube and don't swab any during a shoot of about 40 shots. "Butt Ugly" John Fluhmann ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 2:36 PM > Why do you think this is off topic?? It's the kind of stuff we like to > see. Oh well. > > OK, my answer is spit. Plain old mouth moisture. I carry a canteen of > water with me on the firing line and on survival walks so that my mouth > stays moist. The first thing I do is put a patch in my mouth between shots > so that it's good and wet when I need it. It also helps to have a cleaning > rod with oiled cleaning patch and swab the bore between shots. I use any > machine oil (3 in 1, WD-40, or even 2 stroke motor oil.) The only other > thing might be to take a bore brush to the bore after maybe 10 shots. > Never had a problem. > > HBC > > ********************************** > Henry B. Crawford > Curator of History > Museum of Texas Tech University > Box 43191 > Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 02 Oct 2000 18:33:00 -0700 On Mon, 02 October 2000, "Frank Fusco" wrote: > No problemo here. > I had thought that this list belonged to the AMM. I was mistaken. First > time in my life. > My contributions will continue to be few, however, as when it comes to > RMFT my knowledge is limited. I do enjoy reading the input and learning. > The list has changed some of my opinions on various items. I won't use some > of the "trigger" words because of fear of starting another avalanche. > When the time comes to attend an r'vous that is strick AMM style juried, > I guess I'll have to suffer a tired back without benefit of a chair. But > where I won't get my hair lifted for doin' it, I guarantee I will have > somethin' to set the old bones in. > Regards to this e-campfire, Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas > ---------------------- Frank, There are several that have the AMM "membership_list" and the "Hist_list" mixed up so do not feel like you where singled out. Lanney was just explaining the two differences to help with the confussion. As far as knowledge, your replies are very interesting and help with adding to the conversations, so please don't feel you lack anything and keep us informed on areas that you feel your expertise excells in. Your reply and attitude is very much needed on this list, some would just come back with off the wall remark and hurt feelings, that usually end up in a pissing contest or some dropping off the list - then everyone suffers. Thanks again Frank, I mean this. Your welcome anytime at my camp, AMM, NRA, or not. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 02 Oct 2000 18:43:25 -0700 On Sun, 01 October 2000, S Jones wrote: > Need to clarify my earlier post. The belt or sash goes > through a slit in the rawhide sheath and OVER the > sheathed knife. The slit holds the sheath and the > belt/sash maintains tension/pressure over the blade. > Twarn't a minor detail I left out; sorry. > > --- Mike Moore wrote: > > I guess the assumption that Indians used to keep > > knives in place > > without wangs might need more looking into. George > > Caltin ( "Letters > > and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of > > North American > > Indians" volume one, figure 99) shows a page of > > detailed drawings of > > knives, > > hawks and clubs. One of the few that you will find. > > He draws two knives > > at > > the top of the page and one of them has leather > > shealth (with the hair > > still on) and a > > small tie to the side....... > > > > Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > > Maybe I should leave this alone but Mike if you > > agree that the knife > > > should stay in the belt but you put a thong on it > > to hold it under the > > > belt you have not agreed with Walt. I keep > > hearing how you can tuck > > > it under and it will not fall out, but it does not > > stay for me without > > > being tied on in some way.......... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What Mike has written can be seen at the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chardon NE, and at the Western Museum in Durango CO, as well as in the book mentioned and in several other sources of which is the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. Have tried as suggested with the slot and finally tried and use a thong as suggested, thong works easier in removing sheath from sash when in camp or when mother nature calls. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 02 Oct 2000 19:29:07 -0700 On Mon, 02 October 2000, Buck Conner wrote: > > On Mon, 02 October 2000, "Frank Fusco" wrote: > > No problemo here. > > I had thought that this list belonged to the AMM. I was mistaken. First > > time in my life. > > My contributions will continue to be few, however, as when it comes to > > RMFT my knowledge is limited. I do enjoy reading the input and learning. > > The list has changed some of my opinions on various items. I won't use some > > of the "trigger" words because of fear of starting another avalanche. > > When the time comes to attend an r'vous that is strick AMM style juried, > > I guess I'll have to suffer a tired back without benefit of a chair. But > > where I won't get my hair lifted for doin' it, I guarantee I will have > > somethin' to set the old bones in. > > Regards to this e-campfire, Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas > > ---------------------- > > Frank, > > There are several that have the AMM "membership_list" and the "Hist_list" mixed up so do not feel like you where singled out. Lanney was just explaining the two differences to help with the confussion. > > As far as knowledge, your replies are very interesting and help with adding to the conversations, so please don't feel you lack anything and keep us informed on areas that you feel your expertise excells in. > > Your reply and attitude is very much needed on this list, some would just come back with off the wall remark and hurt feelings, that usually end up in a pissing contest or some dropping off the list - then everyone suffers. > > Thanks again Frank, I mean this. Your welcome anytime at my camp, AMM, NRA, or not. > > Later, > > Barry "Buck" Conner > --------------- Well put Buck, I enjoy Frank and all the other's comments, interesting to get all the different opinions on the varied subjects. Wouldn't it be a bore if we all agreed. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gail jenner Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Query: Women and guns Date: 03 Oct 2000 10:12:01 -0700 I'm looking into article ideas (on speculation at this point) on Women and Guns. Am looking for first-hand details (modern day) about women and guns, eg: hunting, use of, attitudes about. I think it might be an important kind of input regarding the positive picture of guns and women. If you have any ideas or know of anyone willing to be interviewed or profiled (WOMEN!), please email me! I appreciate it!! Thanks, Gail Gail L. Fiorini-Jenner gfiorini@sisqtel.net ACROSS THE SWEET GRASS HILLS, to be released Winter 2000 ISBN#0-88739-302-0 "Dream lofty dreams -- and as you dream, so shall you become." - John Ruskin difiorini.com - coming soon! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gail jenner Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Query: women and guns, part 2 Date: 03 Oct 2000 10:13:53 -0700 Hi again! Actually, I could look at women in the past as well as present day women and guns. Any favorite women in history, besides the obvious/popular ones always mentioned? Again, thanks!! Gail -- Gail L. Fiorini-Jenner gfiorini@sisqtel.net ACROSS THE SWEET GRASS HILLS, to be released Winter 2000 ISBN#0-88739-302-0 "Dream lofty dreams -- and as you dream, so shall you become." - John Ruskin difiorini.com - coming soon! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Bitterroot Valley Fire pic Date: 03 Oct 2000 13:41:52 -0500 To see an awesome pic of the Bitterroot Fire, go to: http://www.misoulian.com/bonus/elkfire.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Sashes Now Knife Sheaths Date: 03 Oct 2000 17:01:52 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_015C_01C02D5B.A090EC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I keep hearing how you can tuck it under and it will not fall out, but = it does not stay for me without being tied on in some way. =20 =20 To clarify, the knife does not fall out of the sheath but the sheath = does not stay under a leather belt without a thong or tie worth beans. = As to the Indians I believe they used neck sheaths as much as putting = them in a belt. =20 A knife in a braintanned buckskin sheath tucked in a sash will not = normally slip from the sash. I have not found a good proper period way to keep a heavy leather = sheath from falling out from=20 under a leather belt, other than tying it on with a whang.=20 J.D. ------=_NextPart_000_015C_01C02D5B.A090EC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
I keep hearing how you can tuck it = under and it=20 will not fall out, but it does not stay for me without being tied on = in some=20 way.   
 
To clarify, the knife does not fall = out of the=20 sheath but the sheath does not stay under a leather belt without a = thong =20 or tie worth beans.  As to the Indians I believe they used neck = sheaths=20 as much as putting them in a belt. 
 
A knife in a braintanned buckskin = sheath tucked=20 in a sash will not normally slip from the sash.
I have not found a good proper period = way to keep=20 a heavy leather sheath from falling out from
under a leather=20 belt, other than tying it on with a whang. 
J.D.
------=_NextPart_000_015C_01C02D5B.A090EC60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Query: Women and guns Date: 03 Oct 2000 17:09:58 -0500 > I'm looking into article ideas (on speculation at this point) on Women > and Guns. Am looking for first-hand details (modern day) about women and > guns, eg: hunting, use of, attitudes about. I think it might be an > important kind of input regarding the positive picture of guns and > women. If you have any ideas or know of anyone willing to be interviewed > or profiled (WOMEN!), please email me! I appreciate it!! > > There is a book avalalble through the NRA. The entitled "WOMEN AND GUNS" written by a woman, Paxton Quigly. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:37:38 -0500 Chonco Smith wrote, Now jussa minit there, I'll debate that............ :-) Cheers, Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whose list? Date: 03 Oct 2000 19:39:39 -0400 I'll tell you boys how to settle this. Just agree with me, cause I am seldom wrong... Hell, just ask me. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: women and guns Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:53:46 -0500 Gail Since you asked. I'll give you a brief bit about my woman [wife] and her experience with guns. She came from a family that never had contact with firearms or hunting, in fact she was somewhat anti-gun but not overtly. I have always hunted and owned firearms. About 1970 we moved to a town near Friendship, Indiana, the home of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. I had had an interest in old guns before moving there but the opportunity to develop an active interest in muzzle loaders was more than I could resist. Soon after our move we were down at the Friendship range almost every weekend. I would shoot and commiserate with the old timers and ml greats. Wife would sit with other women and wait. That did not last long. One day she asked me to get her a rifle so she could shoot too. I asked why she wanted to get involved in "my" sport. [that was a mistake]. She promptly advised me she was tired of sitting watching me have a good time. Either I got her a rifle or I give up ml shooting and we start doing something else she could participate in. She had her own rifle very soon after that. It was a Hopkins & Allen underhammer buggy rifle. Lots of frustrating times teaching her how to shoot as she was right-handed and left eyed, had a tendency to put her head completely over stock to aim with left eye. That did not work. So we put a patch over left eye and trained on right eye. She would get a lot of kidding for using that short barreled simple rifle.......until the scores got posted. Later we had target rifles made up, one for her and one for me. As the years went by and we competed in numerous shoots around the country, plus the NMLRA championships she picked up tons more trophies and medals than I ever dreamed of. She has won and placed in national matches, I never have. In additon to the target rifles she now has a very fine custom made .40 cal. rifle built to her proportions. We have hunted opening days together for the muzzle loading season for almost 30 years. This year we will break that tradition for a variety of reasons. Last year she got two deer on opening day of the ml season. Proud times here. Though not an active competitor any more she has accomplished a lot on the shooting range and at rendezvous. And I credit family participation in shooting sports [sons included] as a strong factor in more than 35 years of marriage. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bitterroot Valley Fire pic Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:21:15 -0700 (PDT) --- Jim Lindberg wrote: > To see an awesome pic of the Bitterroot Fire, go to: > > http://www.misoulian.com/bonus/elkfire.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html The bottom link has the correct spelling, the missing 's' in missoulian http://www.missoulian.com/bonus/elkfire.html ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Query: Women and guns Date: 03 Oct 2000 20:52:21 -0500 Gail, Click on http://www.gunhoo.com/ Scroll down and click on "For Women" in the right hand column. The For Women web site has many links that promotes women and guns, self defense, shooting sports, etc. There's a link to Paxton Quigley's web page. Mr. Dearing mentioned her in a previous post. Another woman you must check out is Sue King. She received the prestigious Sybil Ludington Award this year from the NRA. Mrs. King is also a member of the Texas State Rifle Association, is very active in educating women about guns, and is a fine writer. Learn more about Mrs. King at http://tsra.com then click on Women's issues. Hope this helps, Victoria On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 10:12:01 -0700 gail jenner writes: > I'm looking into article ideas (on speculation at this point) on > Women > and Guns. Am looking for first-hand details (modern day) about women > and > guns, eg: hunting, use of, attitudes about. I think it might be an > important kind of input regarding the positive picture of guns and > women. If you have any ideas or know of anyone willing to be > interviewed > or profiled (WOMEN!), please email me! I appreciate it!! > > Thanks, > > Gail > > > > Gail L. > Fiorini-Jenner gfiorini@sisqtel.net > ACROSS THE SWEET GRASS HILLS, to be released Winter 2000 > ISBN#0-88739-302-0 > "Dream lofty dreams -- and as you dream, so shall you become." - > John Ruskin > difiorini.com - coming soon! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bitterroot Valley Fire pic Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:19:41 -0700 That is one spectacular fire and picture. Looks like something from the movie "Bambi". Just more frightening. Thanks for the web sight. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "no" Subject: MtMan-List: more knives Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:10:47 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C02D86.C85A42C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To the List I have a knife blade that I picked up, it did not have a = handle, the blade is about 5 inches long and a tapered tang about 2 1/2 = inches.The blade ia stamped W.GREVES & SONS. I was wondering if = W.GREVES&SONS made knives for the fur trade? I tried to send a picture = attachment but it would not go through. Frank N ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C02D86.C85A42C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To the List
          &nbs= p;   =20 I have a knife blade that I picked up, it did not have a handle, the = blade is=20 about 5 inches long and a tapered tang about 2 1/2 inches.The blade ia = stamped=20 W.GREVES & SONS. I was wondering if W.GREVES&SONS made knives = for the=20 fur trade? I tried to send a picture attachment but it would not go=20 through.          Frank=20 N
------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C02D86.C85A42C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: pemmican Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:36:29 MDT angela g. or anyone; looking for date the hudson bay co. started to sell pemmican to europ. armys. also firm up about when hudson bay started useing pemmican in their post systems. this is for news letter for hiverant metis(next) ponyrider preserve-research metis history bring may-tee and friends of metis into traditions of the hiverants _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: hte ol fox Date: 03 Oct 2000 22:50:33 MDT sorry' i have limited space on comput. also handle metis e.mail. i will be back in camp even if only in the shadows. didn.t know i was in camp with a door. ponyrider preserve-research metis history bring may tee and friends of metis into traditions of hiverants metis _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 03 Oct 2000 23:11:32 MDT there are many differant way to slip sheath into a sash. the metis have long .made sheaths for sashs. most of the have drops of beads or quill work for the bottom and space then top, this is to help the balance of sheath also some of the old sheaths withe sash drops also have a loop in back . felt hats with strings to help hold on. the old nick name choke strings has a reason. make sure that the string are brake able if they get caught in trees. there are some drawings (?) of trappers with hate strings.but is this a new comer to our western big winds? how many photo,s of old timers with choke strings on.? iv been around felt all live time and choke strings are for new hats just screw the hat down harder, But then you"ll look like me no hair ponyrider preserve_research metis history bring ma tee and friends into tradiion of the hiverant metis _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 04 Oct 2000 10:13:14 EDT In a message dated 10/4/00 1:12:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, havenotmetis@hotmail.com writes: << the old nick name choke strings has a reason. make sure that the string are brake able if they get caught in trees. >> I put the "choke" string in back of my head for just that reason and it sits under my hair so it really shows vary little. All this talk of knives in sheaths with or without something to tie them in reminds me of a woods walk at an Eastern a few years back. A group of period correct eastern long hunters were in a group one station behind mine group. One of the guys had a good size woodsmans knife in a sheath that was tucked into a belt and secured to the belt. But the knife was not tied or secured to the sheath in anyway. Some how in the process of loading his gun, bending over or done the knife and sheath tilted hilt to ground and as he walked along it feel out of the sheath. The knife hit the ground hilt first blade up with the tip of the blade pointing up at his calf as he took a step forward. Luckily in my group was a paramedic and a Viet Nam trained nurse so all he lost was a day at the event but in the woods away from help that would have been bad. I make sure I always make my knives secure. The same goes for my hawk, one of the only early casualties in Sullivans campaign against the Senecas was a soldier that fell back on the hawk blade he had stuck in his belt. He did not have a sheath. And there is on record an incident where Rogers Rangers got chewed out for not using their sheaths on their hawks for safety during travel, so I always use one. Y.H.O.S. C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Karl Kroll" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #639 Date: 04 Oct 2000 09:17:18 -0500 There is a very good book for beginning buckskinners titled, "Back to Basics" (Readers Digest Books) It is one inch thick and has many pictures/drawings, explaining how to make leather products, raise crops, smoke meats, make wine, cooking, etc. I read and enjoyed this book before I had ever even heard of Buckskinning. Karl ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Billy Corgan" Subject: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 14:13:50 EDT I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though that no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited its resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man naturally throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, pollution from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made technologies. It is impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and other factors, which caused a large increase in population in that area. I hope to discuss as well the positive effects of man, but it is hard to see how building up cities is in any way positive to nature. The fur trade may not be at fault for the cities, but the fur trade was a major part of industry, was it not? I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to determine what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up my mind and have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my general research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the situation from there. Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. Thanks again. -b _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 15:56:25 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 11:13 AM > I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the > situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though that > no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited its > resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man naturally > throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, pollution > from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made technologies. Billy, I think what most of the participants of this list would want to see is fair shake given to how all human inhabitants of this or any continent have impacted their environment. The problem comes from our tendency to believe not only what we want but to believe what we read if it has the flavor of scholastic endevor about it. As in your pharagraph above, it seems to imply that much of what man has done to throw off the cycle of life is connected with "modern" or "white" civilization and technologies. While this is true to a great extent it sanctifies the "First Peoples" beyond their due by not addressing the negative impact those peoples have had on the environment. True, they could not make as great an impact nor as quick an impact as "white" populations and activities have, but they did not practice as good a level of stewardship as past authors have made them out to have done. This needs to be addressed as well, just to put things in a balanced perspective. Neither civilization should be elevated to "sainthood" considering what they have done in the past and to a degree continue to do in some instances. Keeping in mind that there is only archeological evidence to show the probability of it, the Indian may very well have been the force leading to the extinction of the mamoth, camel, horse and several other prey animals on this continent long before the coming of the white man. Indians also practiced some very wasteful hunting techniques such as buffalo drops where hundreds of animals are run off a cliff. With the arrival of the horse, the plains indian may have brought the buffalo close to extinction all by themselves over time had it not been for the added pressure of whites hunting them commercially just as the whites hunted beaver commercially almost to repletion. It is > impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on the Missouri and > Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and other factors, which > caused a large increase in population in that area. There was an eventual increase in population as a result of the path finding that went on during the fur trade heydays. There were never that many non indians involved though. I hope to discuss as > well the positive effects of man, but it is hard to see how building up > cities is in any way positive to nature. The fur trade may not be at fault > for the cities, but the fur trade was a major part of industry, was it not? The fur trade was a major effort to supply a commodity for a world market. It was done in a remote area with very few participants and resulted directly in only a few periferal cities like St. Louis. The goods were sent to other parts of the world. But one of the things that is often missed when considering the impact of man and particularly modern man on the environment and wildlife in particular is that a major turn around in the relative health of game populations throughout Amercia has come directly from Civilized Awareness spear headed by Sportsmen not commercial intrests. A distinction needs to be made. And credit given where due. It is generally recognized by Game Dept.s and similar agencies involved with American Wild Life that there are more animals in many animal populations today than a century or more ago. The exception of coures is the buffalo which has lost not only it's biobase but it's open range to farms in the plains states. There are still many healthy herds out west, just not possible to have the numbers that used to roam free simply from the lack of range to roam in. > I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to determine > what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up my mind and > have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my general > research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the situation > from there. I wish you luck and good hunting on finding the answers to your paper. I would hope that you do not believe everything that someone before you has written but rather find out the truth for yourself. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 19:29:47 -0600 Billy, I agree with the good Captain. Where would the environment be now if the fires of this past summer had run wild?. If there were actualy 60 million Buffalo on the plains in 1808 what would a stampeed have done to the environment?. Most people have forgoten that we are also part of the Environment. One news report about 10 years back reported that Archiologist in central America while excavating in what they thought was Rain Forest dug below the old Growth forest only to discover the remains of an Indian corn field which had been slashed and burned 1800 years ago. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Billy Corgan" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade >Date: Wed, Oct 4, 2000, 12:13 PM > >I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the >situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though that >no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited its >resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man naturally >throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, pollution >from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made technologies. It is >impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on the Missouri and >Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and other factors, which >caused a large increase in population in that area. I hope to discuss as >well the positive effects of man, but it is hard to see how building up >cities is in any way positive to nature. The fur trade may not be at fault >for the cities, but the fur trade was a major part of industry, was it not? >I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to determine >what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up my mind and >have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my general >research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the situation >from there. >Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have >helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to >reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. >Thanks again. >-b >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 23:14:12 -0500 Dear -b, aka Billy Corgan, aka Chris Riddle, aka drownyoursorrows: Who the hell are you anyway??? It seems you have determined that "man" is not part of the natural order: hence, by your reasoning, it must be true; men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Or are we all from Uranus? Nothing you've said so far suggests an open mind. Your broad statements of "fact" are unsupported by evidence. You probably get good grades in school. A know-it-all-already university student without a real email address or name doesn't warrant answers, courtesy or consideration. John... At 02:13 PM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote: >I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the >situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though >that no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited >its resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man >naturally throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, >pollution from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made >technologies. It is impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on >the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and >other factors, which caused a large increase in population in that >area. I hope to discuss as well the positive effects of man, but it is >hard to see how building up cities is in any way positive to nature. The >fur trade may not be at fault for the cities, but the fur trade was a >major part of industry, was it not? >I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to >determine what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up >my mind and have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my >general research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the >situation from there. >Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have >helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to >reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. >Thanks again. >-b "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence." Napoleon Bonaparte. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 04 Oct 2000 22:31:46 -0600 Who the hell are you anyway??? Pull your war club back John. Stand steady. Give the kid a chance to clarify himself. If you have not scared him away already Where are them boys who went off to ft union. Why are they so quiet? Walt out of his badgerhole Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 05 Oct 2000 05:00:34 -0700 On Wed, 04 October 2000, CTOAKES@aol.com wrote: > > I make sure I always make my knives secure. The same goes > for my hawk, one of the only early casualties in Sullivans campaign against > the Senecas was a soldier that fell back on the hawk blade he had stuck in > his belt. He did not have a sheath. And there is on record an incident > where Rogers Rangers got chewed out for not using their sheaths on their > hawks for safety during travel, so I always use one. > > Y.H.O.S. > > C.T. Oakes > ---------------------- If your a student of the Rogers Rangers period you'll find he required sheathes on any edged tool and secured when traveling, time was important and being held up for an injury as discribed earlier was not needed. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 05 Oct 2000 05:08:36 -0700 On Tue, 03 October 2000, "Terrance Luff" wrote: > > there are many differant way to slip sheath into a sash. the metis have long > .made sheaths for sashs. most of the have drops of beads or quill work for > the bottom and space then top, this is to help the balance of sheath also > some of the old sheaths withe sash drops also have a loop in back . felt > hats with strings to help hold on. the old nick name choke strings has a > reason. make sure that the string are brake able if they get caught in > trees. there are some drawings (?) of trappers with hate strings.but is this > a new comer to our western big winds? how many photo,s of old timers with > choke strings on.? iv been around felt all live time and choke strings are > for new hats just screw the hat down harder, But then you"ll look like me no > hair > ponyrider > > preserve_research metis history > bring ma tee and friends > into tradiion of the hiverant metis > _________________________________________________________________________ We have used one method shown below, if this works with lines on e-mail. Top ______________________ of / / sheath / ________________ / /_____\ notch that sits over belt Top ______________________ of / / sheath / ________________ / /____o\ notch that sits over belt Buck use a thong in the hole to secure to his belt Hope this works for an example In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 07:52:37 -0500 A while back on this list and currently on another there has been discussion about what grains were carried 'back then' in Rev. times or the RMFT. A few comments were made that I found confusing about what was and what wasn't. Well, after reading the comments, asking a genuine expert and some reading, I have come to a sorta-conclusion. First off, words and meanings change with time. Ethnic differences and translations can also affect how things are perceived by us looking back. Lots of confusion has revolved around the use of corn. Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants were far less lush than they are now. Bees introduced more vigorous pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. Of course, the bees did not instantly inhabit all of America, it took a great many years for them to become widespread. Thusly, white men traveling from the area of the original colonies most probably carried corn that we would recognize today. But those who spent time west of the big muddy more likely did not have anything so fine and had to use whatever was available. In a way both sides are right. 'They' had corn until it ran out. It may have been called wheat, or the wheat may have been called corn, I dunno. But the RMFT days was a time of change. In fact change is what brought an end to that era. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 07:13:37 -0600 Frank, I will probably be more gentle than others but I am sorry to report that there were bees. No there were not European bees. There were Bumble Bee's and probably in the neighborhood of 50+ native bees. You must also remember that there are other insects that polinate as well as bees. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Frank Fusco" >To: "AMM" >Subject: MtMan-List: corn >Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2000, 6:52 AM > > A while back on this list and currently on another there has been >discussion about what grains were carried 'back then' in Rev. times or the >RMFT. > A few comments were made that I found confusing about what was and what >wasn't. Well, after reading the comments, asking a genuine expert and some >reading, I have come to a sorta-conclusion. > First off, words and meanings change with time. Ethnic differences and >translations can also affect how things are perceived by us looking back. > Lots of confusion has revolved around the use of corn. > Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with >an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. >Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants >were far less lush than they are now. Bees introduced more vigorous >pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better >and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. > Of course, the bees did not instantly inhabit all of America, it took a >great many years for them to become widespread. > Thusly, white men traveling from the area of the original colonies most >probably carried corn that we would recognize today. But those who spent >time west of the big muddy more likely did not have anything so fine and had >to use whatever was available. > In a way both sides are right. 'They' had corn until it ran out. It may >have been called wheat, or the wheat may have been called corn, I dunno. But >the RMFT days was a time of change. In fact change is what brought an end to >that era. >Frank G. Fusco >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Monte Holder Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 08:32:07 -0500 Corn is wind pollenated as well. I don't believe bees have much to do with corn reproduction. As I understand it, the natives in Central America selectively bred a grasslike plant whose name starts with a "t" that ends up as the corn we have today. The corn seed planted by farmers today is technically pollenated by people to get the proper crosses for the hybrids. There are open pollenated varieties still that would be similar to the varieties grown back when. Monte Holder From the "corn belt" Saline Co MO "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Frank, > I will probably be more gentle than others but I am sorry to report that > there were bees. No there were not European bees. There were Bumble Bee's > and probably in the neighborhood of 50+ native bees. > You must also remember that there are other insects that polinate as well as > bees. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: "Frank Fusco" > >To: "AMM" > >Subject: MtMan-List: corn > >Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2000, 6:52 AM > > > > > A while back on this list and currently on another there has been > >discussion about what grains were carried 'back then' in Rev. times or the > >RMFT. > > A few comments were made that I found confusing about what was and what > >wasn't. Well, after reading the comments, asking a genuine expert and some > >reading, I have come to a sorta-conclusion. > > First off, words and meanings change with time. Ethnic differences and > >translations can also affect how things are perceived by us looking back. > > Lots of confusion has revolved around the use of corn. > > Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with > >an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. > >Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants > >were far less lush than they are now. Bees introduced more vigorous > >pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better > >and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. > > Of course, the bees did not instantly inhabit all of America, it took a > >great many years for them to become widespread. > > Thusly, white men traveling from the area of the original colonies most > >probably carried corn that we would recognize today. But those who spent > >time west of the big muddy more likely did not have anything so fine and had > >to use whatever was available. > > In a way both sides are right. 'They' had corn until it ran out. It may > >have been called wheat, or the wheat may have been called corn, I dunno. But > >the RMFT days was a time of change. In fact change is what brought an end to > >that era. > >Frank G. Fusco > >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 09:43:35 EDT > Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with > an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. Frank, Are you sure you asked this expert the proper question? The European honey bee was an introduced specie. There are many kinds of bees, hornets and wasps. They didn't all come over with the Pilgrims. > Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants > were far less lush than they are now. Not even close............you know better than this if you stop and think about it. > Bees introduced more vigorous > pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better > and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. I suggest that you reread how the birds and the bees work in nature. I think you should have had your coffee before sending this post. It requires further thought on your part. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: corn & bees Date: 05 Oct 2000 09:06:14 -0500 Ole' #718 wrote, I know only what my expert told me, and he is a recognized authority. Bumble bees may have been here, he acknowledges that. But they do a very poor job of pollinating. Other insects that may pollinate also do a very poor job. I agree something did some pollinating otherwise life would not exist. Better and more vigorous pollination started when the Mayflower landed. I don't see that we are in disagreement. I jest didn't speeceefi wat kinds of bees. I ain't the eekspurt. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: corn and bees Date: 05 Oct 2000 08:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Frank, your last statement was true enough, crops did get much better after the pilgrims landed [140 years after Columbus]because the native americans were not trained horticulturists, whereas Europeans had been farming for quite a spell, and it was experience that made the difference. Don't know what kinds of bees they brought, but since ol' Chris never landed on our continent, I have no idea what he had to do with their introduction. I sure do enjoy the result though, Dog __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 10:37:06 -0700 Frank, Lots of confusion has revolved around the use of corn. > Here's what I think: According to an early post, which I confirmed with > an expert, bees did not exist in America prior to the time of Columbus. So far your right on target. > Thusly, most of the continent was almost barren plains land and all plants > were far less lush than they are now. That may or may not be true but I don't see it that way. All plants have a unique pollination stratagy special to them. Some plants are pollinated by moths, some by butterflys, some by other indigenous insects and some by birds and mamals. Those plants that depend on an outside agent to assist in the pollination process and were compatible with the honey bee's pollination habits benefited from the introduction of european honey bees. Remember too that there are more than just the european honey bee on this continent. Bumble Bees, leaf cutter bees, etc. It was the european honey bee that was introduced. Bees introduced more vigorous > pollination and made some plants, corn one of them, into something better > and almost unrecognizable from its early scrawny ancestors. I don't know where you got your information but I believe you have been advised wrong. Having been an avid gardener and having lived in an agricultural community with farmer grandfathers, and having had some agricultural training in school I can assure you that corn and most of the other grains do not depend on nor do they utilize insects of any kind to carry out their pollination strategy's. Bee's do not pollinate corn. Corn is pollinated by a wide dispersal of pollen by air currents. The indians were great corn growers long before europeans set foot on this continent. They also had a tradition of growing special strains of corn for different uses and for hardiness in different climates varying from the tropics of South America to the high dry mountains of the west and from the upper plains states across Amercia and south into South America. They also made it a point to not plant one strain next to another one or the result would be serious cross pollination. I have had this problem with my corn growing efforts since my garden is only a 1/4 acre in size and it is hard to separate different strains with enough distance. They discribed it as "the sisters walking in the night" (better known as teepee creaping ). But those who spent > time west of the big muddy more likely did not have anything so fine and had > to use whatever was available. I believe I read where the Wilson Price Hunt expedition/group traveling overland to the mouth of the Columbia for the Astor venture in 1810/11 traded for corn from the Indians in the Snake River plains. Perhaps it was another group but it was done. Corn was and had been a big trade commondity for many thousands of years all over North America. Now wheat is another story. Remember too, that Indians harvested but did not cultivate other grass grains in minor amounts just as they foraged for variously available regional nuts, roots and fibers. The question and thus the argument as to whether ground corn meal was carried, available for trade or, etc. is problematic. The indians certainly had it to trade. They grew or traded for corn and many, though not all tribes, ground it into flour for baking. So why wouldn't it be available to the long hunter along with the RMFT and beyond? That doesn't take away from a person's vow to not use anything not thouroghly documented. That is personal choice. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn and bees Date: 05 Oct 2000 11:47:47 -0600 Dog, Are you comming to the Camp? Ole ---------- >From: Ronald Schrotter >To: hist list >Subject: MtMan-List: corn and bees >Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2000, 9:44 AM > >Frank, your last statement was true enough, crops did >get much better after the pilgrims landed [140 years >after Columbus]because the native americans were not >trained horticulturists, whereas Europeans had been >farming for quite a spell, and it was experience that >made the difference. Don't know what kinds of bees >they brought, but since ol' Chris never landed on our >continent, I have no idea what he had to do with their >introduction. I sure do enjoy the result though, Dog > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! >http://photos.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn & bees Date: 05 Oct 2000 11:10:11 -0700 Thank goodness fo those endo-urapeeing Bees the poor natives could have never made it on their primitive--godless own. Some Phd , some where has set the record straight. Popcorn and tacos to you sir. All you rendevous police take note: no second time around corn will be tolerated in this camp! LOLROTFLMAO ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 7:06 AM > Ole' #718 wrote, > > that > there were bees. No there were not European bees. There were Bumble Bee's > and probably in the neighborhood of 50+ native bees.> > > I know only what my expert told me, and he is a recognized authority. > Bumble bees may have been here, he acknowledges that. But they do a very > poor job of pollinating. Other insects that may pollinate also do a very > poor job. I agree something did some pollinating otherwise life would not > exist. > Better and more vigorous pollination started when the Mayflower landed. > I don't see that we are in disagreement. I jest didn't speeceefi wat kinds > of bees. I ain't the eekspurt. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 13:05:58 -0600 I had a great time at Ft Union and learned a bit while there. Gowen and Hansen had interesting luncheon presentations. Bought a ton of new books. Now just have to find a quiet time in the bathroom to read. Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: corn Date: 05 Oct 2000 15:53:30 EDT In a message dated 10/5/00 9:16:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << there were bees. No there were not European bees >> You can even change that to European Honey Bees which Native Americans called the white mans stining flys. These were imported to have honey and mead and wax which were common back in Europe. <<'They' had corn until it ran out. It may have been called wheat, or the wheat may have been called corn, I dunno>> In the 1700 all grain was (wheat, barley, oats) called corn by Europeans and what we call corn was called maze or indian corn. This can confuse people using early cook books and journals. Indian corn was prolific, if you read the accounts of Sullivans campaign in 1779 against the 6 natiions you will see that maze/corn was grown (along with beans and squash, the three sisters) by the thousands of acres. Sullivan did not defeat the Iroquois in battle, he use a slash and burn warfare (Gen G. Washingtons orders) to reduce the natives to starvation and force them to retreat to Ft. Niagara and north to further drain the British supplies, thereby reducing British attacks from the north. But maze/corn was an extremely viable crop in North America early in the 1700's. It may not have been planted as abundantly in the west but growing grain was practiced by the natives that were forced to relocate time and time again further and further west. YMOS C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 15:46:44 -0700 John, I'm right there with you on this one. I refuse to converse with anyone who chooses to use a bogus name, no name, or doesn't have his or her e-mail address on his or her messages. Just seems kinda rude to me. There seems to be a growing number of folks on this list and others who want to air their opinions, and yet remain totally anonymous. You and I have had rather heated discussions on this list and others, but we always knew who we were talkin to. If you wanted to e-mail me privately or if you wanted to call me up and give me piece of your mind, so be it. I had the same options. That just seems like the right way to carry on a discussion to me. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Dear -b, aka Billy Corgan, aka Chris Riddle, aka drownyoursorrows: Who the hell are you anyway??? It seems you have determined that "man" is not part of the natural order: hence, by your reasoning, it must be true; men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Or are we all from Uranus? Nothing you've said so far suggests an open mind. Your broad statements of "fact" are unsupported by evidence. You probably get good grades in school. A know-it-all-already university student without a real email address or name doesn't warrant answers, courtesy or consideration. John... At 02:13 PM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote: >I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the >situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though >that no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited >its resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man >naturally throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, >pollution from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made >technologies. It is impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on >the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and >other factors, which caused a large increase in population in that >area. I hope to discuss as well the positive effects of man, but it is >hard to see how building up cities is in any way positive to nature. The >fur trade may not be at fault for the cities, but the fur trade was a >major part of industry, was it not? >I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to >determine what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up >my mind and have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my >general research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the >situation from there. >Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have >helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to >reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. >Thanks again. >-b "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence." Napoleon Bonaparte. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 17:07:29 EDT Pendleton, You have a valid point...much like how the ol' coons of yesteryear appreciated a man what would toe up and rassle face-to-face. But some folks is just green to cyber-etiquette. Takes some a while to learn. Give -em time...give 'em time...my granpap used to say. Ignorance can be educated...stupidity-now that's forever. I remain respectfully yours, -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 16:08:56 -0500 Damn, but here I am agreeing 100% with both Larry and John, and in Public! Regards, Paul ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 5:46 PM > John, > I'm right there with you on this one. I refuse to converse with anyone > who chooses to use a bogus name, no name, or doesn't have his or her e-mail > address on his or her messages. Just seems kinda rude to me. There seems > to be a growing number of folks on this list and others who want to air > their opinions, and yet remain totally anonymous. > You and I have had rather heated discussions on this list and others, but > we always knew who we were talkin to. If you wanted to e-mail me privately > or if you wanted to call me up and give me piece of your mind, so be it. I > had the same options. That just seems like the right way to carry on a > discussion to me. > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: John Kramer > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 9:16 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade > > > Dear -b, aka Billy Corgan, aka Chris Riddle, aka drownyoursorrows: > > Who the hell are you anyway??? > > It seems you have determined that "man" is not part of the natural order: > hence, by your reasoning, it must be true; men are from Mars and women are > from Venus. Or are we all from Uranus? > > Nothing you've said so far suggests an open mind. > > Your broad statements of "fact" are unsupported by evidence. > > You probably get good grades in school. > > A know-it-all-already university student without a real email address or > name doesn't warrant answers, courtesy or consideration. > > John... > > At 02:13 PM 10/4/00 -0400, you wrote: > >I was not trying to put forth the idea that I have a negativ view of the > >situation going into the paper which I am writing. It is a fact though > >that no matter what, ever time man has populated a region and exploited > >its resources, something environmentally negative has happened. Man > >naturally throws off the cycle of life due to overhunting, building dams, > >pollution from cities/trade posts, and wastes from man made > >technologies. It is impossible to say that man had no adverse effect on > >the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers as a result of the fur trade, and > >other factors, which caused a large increase in population in that > >area. I hope to discuss as well the positive effects of man, but it is > >hard to see how building up cities is in any way positive to nature. The > >fur trade may not be at fault for the cities, but the fur trade was a > >major part of industry, was it not? > >I am still in the planning stages of this paper, and am trying to > >determine what angle I would be best to take. So far I have not made up > >my mind and have a lot of research to do, obviously. Once I have done my > >general research I plan to formulate my angle of approach and attack the > >situation from there. > >Thank you to those who helped me out with finding information, you have > >helped enlighten me about the realities of the fur trade and when I get to > >reading all the material in full I will hopefully have my ideas straight. > >Thanks again. > >-b > > > "Never ascribe to malice that which is > adequately explained by incompetence." > Napoleon Bonaparte. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 16:36:49 -0700 You have a valid point...much like how the ol' coons of yesteryear appreciated a man what would toe up and rassle face-to-face >> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I figure a person who isn't willing to "toe the line" ain't worth talkin to. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 15:13:34 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 3:46 PM > John, > I'm right there with you on this one. I refuse to converse with anyone > who chooses to use a bogus name, no name, or doesn't have his or her e-mail > address on his or her messages. Pendleton, Sounds like a policy I can live with. No name, no email, bogus name, No Comment! It is just plain rude. Guy or gal like that on the mlml and called himself "me". I tried to tell him it was impolite and he wouldn't listen. No one talks to him as far as I know. Probably a nice fella otherwise. Just seems kinda rude to me. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 18:50:32 EDT Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > Where are them boys who went off to ft union. Why are they so quiet?>> We've been contemplatin' all that we learned and gettin' ready for the fall hunts. I went to Fort Union and had a great time. Best symposium/conference I have attended. Not only did I learn a lot, it got me fired-up for some new projects and interested in some new research. Made many new friends and I also met several good folks from this and other lists. However, there were several who from the list, who said they were coming, but I did not see or get a chance to meet them. There were about 175 paying participants, many presenters, National Park employees from the Fort, plus many from the local Ft. Union Association and area club(s) who stopped in and out of the proceedings. I think they said there were 29 states and 4 countries represented. It was a "jam" packed event with presentations during lunch and up until 10:00 at night. The presentations, vendors, tours, artifacts, and reenactment were all first class. I would highly recommend it. The host committee from Fort Union and all the re-enactors from far and wide should be congratulated. A friend, who is a rendezvous trader, went to the Fort Union Rendezvous on Memorial Day and said it was one of the best he attended. I will definitely put it on my calendar for next year. Only criticism I have is that they raffled the brain tan buffalo robe off to some "dude" from New York City. Tentative schedules for future symposiums (based on who volunteers to host it) are Fort Benton, MT 2003 and Chadron, NE (Museum of the Fur Trade) in 2006. I will not miss either or these. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 05 Oct 2000 19:51:07 -0700 Glad someone had a good time. For those of us who were stuck in the "Sunny" Fla. slaving away with the uneducated children of tomorrow...... But, for those of you who are interested in Native American Material Culture, there is going to be a new seminar in the fall to go to. If anyone is interested, it may be in Sheridan, Great Falls? or somewhere in that area. Many of our " Material Culture" people went to Ft. Union and had such a good time they want to have another type a group gathering. Many of us go to the Plains Symposium in Cody, but that has turned into a Social, economic, modern, why do we hate the indians by the indians or how to be politically correct, bust. Use to be a great place to learn. Any way.....glad to hear the news. Sounds great. Linda Holley GHickman@aol.com wrote: > Wfoster@cw2.com writes: > > > Where are them boys who went off to ft union. Why are they so quiet?>> > > We've been contemplatin' all that we learned and gettin' ready for the fall > hunts. > > I went to Fort Union and had a great time. Best symposium/conference I have > attended. Not only did I learn a lot, it got me fired-up for some new > projects and interested in some new research. Made many new friends and I > also met several good folks from this and other lists. However, there were > several who from the list, who said they were coming, but I did not see or > get a chance to meet them. There were about 175 paying participants, many > presenters, National Park employees from the Fort, plus many from the local > Ft. Union Association and area club(s) who stopped in and out of the > proceedings. I think they said there were 29 states and 4 countries > represented. It was a "jam" packed event with presentations during lunch and > up until 10:00 at night. The presentations, vendors, tours, artifacts, and > reenactment were all first class. I would highly recommend it. The host > committee from Fort Union and all the re-enactors from far and wide should be > congratulated. > > A friend, who is a rendezvous trader, went to the Fort Union Rendezvous on > Memorial Day and said it was one of the best he attended. I will definitely > put it on my calendar for next year. Only criticism I have is that they > raffled the brain tan buffalo robe off to some "dude" from New York City. > Tentative schedules for future symposiums (based on who volunteers to host > it) are Fort Benton, MT 2003 and Chadron, NE (Museum of the Fur Trade) in > 2006. I will not miss either or these. > > YMOS > Ghosting Wolf > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pemmican Date: 05 Oct 2000 19:08:14 -0600 "Ponyrider" wrote: >angela g. or anyone; >looking for date the hudson bay co. started to sell pemmican to europ. >armys. also firm up about when hudson bay started useing pemmican in their >post systems. Sorry, Ponyrider. I thought I knew stuff about pemmican, but I'm afraid I can't help you out with the question of European armies. I'm not sure what you mean by "using pemmican in their post systems"--do you mean sending pemmican to a central provisioning post, or do you mean when they started using pemmican as food? I might be able to find out those answers, but if you meant something else, let me know. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: pemmican Date: 05 Oct 2000 19:38:30 -0600 "Ponyrider" wrote: >angela g. or anyone; >looking for date the hudson bay co. started to sell pemmican to europ. >armys. also firm up about when hudson bay started useing pemmican in their >post systems. Sorry, Ponyrider. I thought I knew stuff about pemmican, but I'm afraid I can't help you out with the question of European armies. I'm not sure what you mean by "using pemmican in their post systems"--do you mean sending pemmican to a central provisioning post, or do you mean when they started using pemmican as food? I might be able to find out those answers, but if you meant something else, let me know. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred Ponyrider and Angela, One of the big items for trade was pemmican. North of the border it was a major trade item back into the trading posts. The Assinaboine and Metis did a lot of trading of pemmican.. Another example of pemmican trade in large amounts was at the Fort Union Trading Post. Is the representative from Fort Union present on the list? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pemmican Date: 05 Oct 2000 22:31:50 EDT > Sorry, Ponyrider. I thought I knew stuff about pemmican, but I'm afraid I > can't help you out with the question of European armies. I'm not sure what > you mean by "using pemmican in their post systems"--do you mean sending > pemmican to a central provisioning post, or do you mean when they started > using pemmican as food? That information should be in the archives. We discussed it several years ago. I remember the thread and I provided substantial information, but it was too long ago and I can't remember the sources. It had to do with the Metis Buffalo hunts and the fact that they made pemmican from the buffalo meat and fat, packed it in the stomachs of the buffalo, carted it back on their Red River carts, and sold it to HBC and others. You just have to dig it out of the archives. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: word-phrase searchable hist-text digest archives Date: 05 Oct 2000 23:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Are there any plans or discussion among the AMM brethren (i.e., Dean & a few brothers) to do this? [too much work - not enough time?] It would make a great web site even greater. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 05 Oct 2000 23:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except for 1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. [non-American Indian civilization]. Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = Lamanite]. Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America have been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will be mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 05 Oct 2000 23:59:11 EDT JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net writes: > Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction....of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C....Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D.....>> What is your documentation for this? Where is the archeological and/or geological evidence? I also think you need to check the dates, from the geological evidence, of when these animals became extinct and compare them to your dates. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 01:19:35 -0600 Jon, since when did the book of Mormon become an ML list as a source of history? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 01:25:04 -0600 Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = Lamanite]. Jon this is a bogus statement. Mammoths food supply as things dried up after the last Ice age. The bow and arrow arrived in what is now called Montana about the time you mention. 421 A. D. About the only thing you said that rings true is more is to be discovered south of the border. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 06:24:57 -0700 Where is the documentation for any of this "Information"?????????? Never heard of this before. Linda Holley Jon Marinetti wrote: > Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as > a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except for > 1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. > [non-American Indian civilization]. > > Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the > Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the > Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = > Lamanite]. > > Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America have > been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will be > mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 07:28:46 -0500 Jon While all of us are free to worship as we choose, many of the "facts" = presented in the texts of the various religions are not facts at all but = are stories that must be accepted as true strictly as a matter of faith. = Your "facts" cannot be supported by any other evidence outside your = faith and should not be presented in any other context. =20 I am sure you have been taught these "history" lessons in your religion = and that you believe them with all your heart, but they cannot be proved = and should not be held out as facts when, in fact, they are only part of = your faith and are not otherwise in the historical record. Quoting from = your religious litterature is not proof of the "facts" just as quoting = from the Bible or any other religious text is not proof of what is said = there either. =20 Of course, your "facts" can no more be disproved than they can be = proved, but accepting that a negative cannot be proved is not "proof" = that the original idea is true.=20 I, for one, would prefer that anything presented here as factual should = be supported by verifiable research, not by stories from one's religion. = cordially Lanney Ratclff =20 Mammoths-Horses > Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent = as > a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except = for > 1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. > [non-American Indian civilization]. >=20 > Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the > Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the > Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = =3D > Lamanite]. >=20 > Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America = have > been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will = be > mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: bees [was corn] Date: 06 Oct 2000 08:12:20 -0500 My comment that most of the continent was plains still stands. Yes, there were vast areas of old forests, that is well known. But much of what we see today as forest was grasslands. It is my understanding that growth of forests and demise of grasslands east of the Mississippi is what eliminated the bison from that part of the country. Life would not exist without pollination. But the imported European [my expert said they were mostly Italian] were far more effective than the native insects and dramatically changed this land. He did qualify what he told me as far as the semi-tropical areas of Florida and such, there were other pollinating factors at work there. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bees [was corn] Date: 06 Oct 2000 06:27:31 -0700 (PDT) The buffalo and the grasses teamed up to expand the grasslands over time; up to 60% of the North American continent was grassland. The symbiotic relationship reclaimed barren/rocky semi-arid wastelands and produced extremely fertile sod. The end of the vast buffalo herds came about due to many factors: the railroads splitting the herds in half, the farmer-settlers busting sod and fencing out bison, buffalo hunters/Natives decimating the herds for hides, bones or just TONGUES!, and last but not least, an epidemic (which dis-ease?) that nearly finished them off in 1884-5. Source: The Ecological Indian: Myth and History, by Shepard Krech III --- Frank Fusco wrote: > My comment that most of the continent was plains > still stands. Yes, > there were vast areas of old forests, that is well > known. But much of what > we see today as forest was grasslands. It is my > understanding that growth of > forests and demise of grasslands east of the > Mississippi is what eliminated > the bison from that part of the country. > Life would not exist without pollination. But > the imported European [my > expert said they were mostly Italian] were far more > effective than the > native insects and dramatically changed this land. > He did qualify what he > told me as far as the semi-tropical areas of Florida > and such, there were > other pollinating factors at work there. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: bear hide Date: 06 Oct 2000 08:30:32 -0500 I'll be hunting with Hawk and others near the Buffalo creek [formerly river] during the muzzle loading season shortly. We 'plan' to harvest us a bar each. Now, I don't have the know-how or facilities to tan a bar hide. Can anyone recommend a reputable place to get a bar hide tanned, fur on? Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear hide Date: 01 Jan 2000 06:54:02 -0600 I can, OK.............it's my business! thanks Joe see our web site Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade Date: 06 Oct 2000 19:15:44 -0500 >it sanctifies the "First Peoples" beyond their due by not addressing the > negative impact those peoples have had on the environment. They >did not practice as good a level of > stewardship as past authors have made them out to have done. This needs to > be addressed as well, just to put things in a balanced perspective. > > Indians also > practiced some very wasteful hunting techniques such as buffalo drops where > hundreds of animals are run off a cliff. Lets not forget fire hunting practiced by most NA societies. Fire was set to the plains and forests to drive animals to the hunters. I have to wonder how much habitat and how many animals were lost each year to these uncontrolled fires. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses Date: 06 Oct 2000 23:08:09 -0400 (EDT) c.f. National Geographic, Dec.1999, GEOGRAPHICA article titled: "More Fossils by a Dam Site" Location: southwest of Palm Springs where the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California is building its Eastside Reservoir. Quantity: 20,000 fossils (such as a huge femur from a Columbian mammoth uncovered in 1993 - photo included) "There are mammoths, mastadons, bison, camels, horses, saber-toothed cats, giant ground sloths, North American lions, black bears, wolves, and small animals like badgers, weasels, rabbits, turtles, mice, frogs, and birds says the San Bernardino County Museum paleontologist Kathleen Springer." USA Today, Tues. 09-26-00, p.3A, article on Kennewick Man: "Professors who studied the bones for the Interior Department have said Kennewick Man appears to be most strongly connected to the people of Polynesia and southern Asia. The find has helped force researchers to consider the possibility that the continent's earliest arrivals came not by a land bridge between Russia and Alaska, a long-held theory, but by boat or some other route." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses Date: 07 Oct 2000 06:05:31 -0700 On Fri, 06 October 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote: > > c.f. National Geographic, Dec.1999, GEOGRAPHICA article titled: "More > Fossils by a Dam Site" > > Location: southwest of Palm Springs where the Metropolitan Water > District of Southern California is building its Eastside Reservoir. > > Quantity: 20,000 fossils (such as a huge femur from a Columbian mammoth > uncovered in 1993 - photo included) > > "There are mammoths, mastadons, bison, camels, horses, saber-toothed > cats, giant ground sloths, North American lions, black bears, wolves, > and small animals like badgers, weasels, rabbits, turtles, mice, frogs, > and birds says the San Bernardino County Museum paleontologist Kathleen > Springer." > ------------------------------------------------ > > USA Today, Tues. 09-26-00, p.3A, article on Kennewick Man: > > "Professors who studied the bones for the Interior Department have said > Kennewick Man appears to be most strongly connected to the people of > Polynesia and southern Asia. The find has helped force researchers to > consider the possibility that the continent's earliest arrivals came not > by a land bridge between Russia and Alaska, a long-held theory, but by > boat or some other route." > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jon, Interesting material but what does it have to do with the history of the Fur Trade 1800-1840 as we see it or was seen in it's hay day ! _____________________________________________________________________________ With the amount of e-mails this has raised, it reminds me of a statement seen years ago from an interview of Sylvian Hart (the modern day mountain man - that lived it). "subjects I don't talk about are politics, religion and sports, fastest way to start a fight". _____________________________________________________________________________ I have seen several others use a like statement claiming it be be theirs also. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses Date: 07 Oct 2000 08:32:49 -0500 Jon if your going to use these sources as references you should consider other information they have gathered because these same folks that made them certainly don't believe any of the things you do. Tell me of one single person in the world who has studied these matters in a professional manner that gives even the slightest amount of credence to anything you have said. I don't read to you about unrelated topics out of my bible on this list I would ask that you do the same. Tony Clark ----- Original Message ----- Sent: October 06, 2000 10:08 PM > c.f. National Geographic, Dec.1999, GEOGRAPHICA article titled: "More > Fossils by a Dam Site" > > Location: southwest of Palm Springs where the Metropolitan Water > District of Southern California is building its Eastside Reservoir. > > Quantity: 20,000 fossils (such as a huge femur from a Columbian mammoth > uncovered in 1993 - photo included) > > "There are mammoths, mastadons, bison, camels, horses, saber-toothed > cats, giant ground sloths, North American lions, black bears, wolves, > and small animals like badgers, weasels, rabbits, turtles, mice, frogs, > and birds says the San Bernardino County Museum paleontologist Kathleen > Springer." > ------------------------------------------------ > > USA Today, Tues. 09-26-00, p.3A, article on Kennewick Man: > > "Professors who studied the bones for the Interior Department have said > Kennewick Man appears to be most strongly connected to the people of > Polynesia and southern Asia. The find has helped force researchers to > consider the possibility that the continent's earliest arrivals came not > by a land bridge between Russia and Alaska, a long-held theory, but by > boat or some other route." > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 07 Oct 2000 08:54:21 -0500 Jon: As you were polite enough to note in the subject listing, this material is off topic. Further, it broaches matters religious, which I, for one, do not care to debate in this forum. I would hope that you will restrict further postings to this list to matters relating to the Mountain Man era and genuinely related topics. However, Mammoths and Mastodons are a subject near and dear to me as I had the opportunity many years ago to work with several groups of paleontologists from assorted Ivy League and other schools who were excavating various fossil remains from my family's ranch in North Texas, and I would therefore like to comment about your assertions as it relates solely to the animal species. My understanding then, and now (from every recognized paleontology textbook I have been able to peruse on the subject), is that there is considerable well-tested scientific evidence that both the Mammoths and the Mastodons died out on this continent no later than about 10,000 years ago, and most certainly were not found anywhere by the 585 B.C. era you cite. As I am sure you know, the mammal population in what is know called North America, suffered a massive die-off in the late Pleistocene, leaving no large mammals (from the horse [so whatever was eliminated from the animal species as a result of the "civil wars" you cited circa 421 A.D. was most certainly not related to horses], saber-toothed tiger, to the Mammoth, and the three species of Mastodon-Columbian, Jefferson [so named after our beloved President] and Woolly) on the continent. The late Pleistocene is an epoch well documented, and very well dated. The challenge of this well documented and dated evidence comes only from matters religious, which brings me back to the fundamental reason it is better to debate such issues either privately or on another list. Regards, Paul W. Jones ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:47 PM > Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as > a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except for > 1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. > [non-American Indian civilization]. > > Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the > Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the > Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = > Lamanite]. > > Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America have > been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will be > mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 08 Oct 2000 03:45:20 EDT Hello in the camp! While I was ridein in I picked up a few things along the trail. I was a wondering if any of it belonged to any of you folks that don't tie your stuff on. I lost my first knife and sheath by just tucking it under my belt and my second knife the sheath was tied in but the knife was not. It fit so tight I would have to turn it up side down and shake it hard to get it out. But there was a lot of handle sticking out of the sheath and my pack horse's lead rope must have hooked it one of those times when it was being #**#%*!!!!! ***#%#!!!!! such a sweet hart. I found this hat too it's a nice one but no wonder they lost it, it has no stampede strap on it. I would keep it but it don't fit it's to tight, I guess I could screw it down on my head good and tight but that would only give me another head ache. The pack horse is a big enough one at times. So if you don't want to sacrifice your gear to the trail gods you had better tie it in or on. Or keep a good close eye on your back trail and get good at picking things up off the ground from off the top of your horse. Cause getting on and off that horse is going to get old. You were a talkin about sashes bein used by Rocky Mountain trappers. I have not came a cross any in any of the trade lists or journals that I have read. But leather for belts was available in old saddle leather. For as much as their saddle gear got used things like surcingles, stirrups straps and depending on how the saddle was rigged ether girth or cinch straps all wore out with time. Any one of these Items would make more then one belt. Well, it's time to ride so......... See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 08 Oct 2000 08:12:05 -0600 Hello Crazy Coyt, Must be some other lost pilgrim's stuff. We are gathered in here during this fine Month of October to spend the winter of what will be called the Original Rocky Mountain College. Plenty of Metis in camp. They pretty much seem to be wearing sashes. Some of our boys like to wear a leather War Belt over the top of the sash. I been told that 40 50 years from now the likes of Charlie Russell will wear a sash and show how it was worn among horse men he was among. Sorry to hear about your loses. None of that stuff belongs to anyone in this camp. Sorry to hear you hat don't fit real good either. I hain't to sure what a drug store cowboy stampede strap looks like for sure. I know Ponyrider has been up on horseback for 50 years or so. And so have I. I don't know when the word Dude was created but it was about this time. Bring back some more neat stuff next time around. I have handled 5,6,7 pack horse at a time. Managed to keep my hat on and I did not loose my knife. What was I doing wrong. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana Hello in the camp! While I was ridein in I picked up a few things along the trail. I was a wondering if any of it belonged to any of you folks that don't tie your stuff on. I lost my first knife and sheath by just tucking it under my belt and my second knife the sheath was tied in but the knife was not. It fit so tight I would have to turn it up side down and shake it hard to get it out. But there was a lot of handle sticking out of the sheath and my pack horse's lead rope must have hooked it one of those times when it was being #**#%*!!!!! ***#%#!!!!! such a sweet hart. I found this hat too it's a nice one but no wonder they lost it, it has no stampede strap on it. I would keep it but it don't fit it's to tight, I guess I could screw it down on my head good and tight but that would only give me another head ache. The pack horse is a big enough one at times. So if you don't want to sacrifice your gear to the trail gods you had better tie it in or on. Or keep a good close eye on your back trail and get good at picking things up off the ground from off the top of your horse. Cause getting on and off that horse is going to get old. You were a talkin about sashes bein used by Rocky Mountain trappers. I have not came a cross any in any of the trade lists or journals that I have read. But leather for belts was available in old saddle leather. For as much as their saddle gear got used things like surcingles, stirrups straps and depending on how the saddle was rigged ether girth or cinch straps all wore out with time. Any one of these Items would make more then one belt. Well, it's time to ride so......... See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 08:56:15 -0700 On Sat, 07 October 2000, "Paul W. Jones" wrote: > Jon: > > As you were polite enough to note in the subject listing, this material is > off topic. Further, it broaches matters religious, which I, for one, do not > care to debate in this forum. I would hope that you will restrict further > postings to this list to matters relating to the Mountain Man era and > genuinely related topics. WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP AT THIS POINT !!!! > However, Mammoths and Mastodons are a subject near and dear to me as I had > the opportunity many years ago to work with several groups of > paleontologists from assorted Ivy League and other schools who were > excavating various fossil remains from my family's ranch in North Texas, and > I would therefore like to comment about your assertions as it relates solely > to the animal species. My understanding then, and now (from every > recognized paleontology textbook I have been able ................. WHY CONTINUE THE SUBJECT !!!! > The challenge of this well documented and dated evidence comes only from > matters religious, which brings me back to the fundamental reason it is > better to debate such issues either privately or on another list. STOP PAUL ................. > Paul W. Jones > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jon Marinetti > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:47 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses WEATHER FORECAST: WINDY IN THE WEST - ONLY KIDDING PABLO. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 12:08:04 EDT > ______________________________________________ > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT >"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > before production". > ________________________________________HRD__ Concho, How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all about. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - "NO MORE" on mammoths-mastadons Date: 08 Oct 2000 09:31:37 -0700 Jon, The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada, not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar tools of the trade. Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country. The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a few years ago. We've had several good talks about tinder, char, and steels for fire kits, excellent e-mails on clothing, etc., lets keep the idea of what was used and how it would help or hinder in the daily life of surviving in the "Stoney Mountains" as referred to by the natives and called the "Rockies" by the Europeans. "We study the history of the Fur Trade and experiment with the equipage used in that time (reproduction and original) as well as making our camps, sampling the foods, etc. in trying to experience the life styles of our forefathers". Buck Conner 1971. From an article written for the "BuckSkin Report" thirty years ago and he as well as many others, (thousands) are still working at that experience, so let's work as we have in the past as a team in discovering what these great men of the fur trade found and how they lived from day to day through good documentation. Sorry to be so long winded, right Pablo. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 10:04:13 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > ______________________________________________ > > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > >"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > > before production". > > ________________________________________HRD__ > > Concho, > How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all > about. > > Dave Kanger > Dave, Haven't talked to you for sometime, last time I saw you was at your doin's at the river near Lisle, Ill., is that group still in operation - very impressive and well organized. Buck said he was invited to one of your meeting while in Lisle, and was very impressed with them and you, and what your group has got done in saving a piece of history. We all need more like you and yours, thanks. As for the HRD; "HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT", like their statement says "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production" is just that. After good documentation with research on a given item has been completed, a sample may be made and worked with (field trialed) to see if that item is worthy of being reproduced and made available to the public, then a study is made to see how marketable that item is (will it sell). HRD would produce working models, schematics (blue prints) and documentation of the item to those that produce such things with like quality and offered to a marketing group to wholesale that item. Sounds like a lot of work for making something period correct, but that is how this sport has grown with the deciated reenacter, historian and history buff - those that want correct equipage to experience the choosen time frame that they have grown to love and study. We have some good folks involved in the HRD; Betty Morris of the "Historical Society" in St. Louis, James Rubinfine of "An Earlier Time" magazine (retired editor) - New England states, William Eaton of "The Colonial Society" magazine out of Williamburg, Buck Conner of Clark & Sons Merc. (retired) and of this list - Colorado, myself from Pennsylvaina and several others that I have not had the pleasure of meeting yet. We are all experienced in a number of different areas of living history, museums, etc., we are given a subject to investage, research, document and then report our findings to HRD, for now the time doesn't warrent the pay - more of a love of doing research and just learning about our forefather's and what life was like living then. Hope that helps Dave. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 10:14:54 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > ______________________________________________ > > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > >"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > > before production". > > ________________________________________HRD__ > > Concho, > How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all > about. > > Dave Kanger > Dave, Haven't talked to you for sometime, last time I saw you was at your doin's at the river near Lisle, Ill., is that group still in operation - very impressive and well organized. Buck said he was invited to one of your meeting while in Lisle, and was very impressed with them and you, and what your group has got done in saving a piece of history. We all need more like you and yours, thanks. As for the HRD; "HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT", like their statement says "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production" is just that. After good documentation with research on a given item has been completed, a sample may be made and worked with (field trialed) to see if that item is worthy of being reproduced and made available to the public, then a study is made to see how marketable that item is (will it sell). HRD would produce working models, schematics (blue prints) and documentation of the item to those that produce such things with like quality and offered to a marketing group to wholesale that item. Sounds like a lot of work for making something period correct, but that is how this sport has grown with the deciated reenacter, historian and history buff - those that want correct equipage to experience the choosen time frame that they have grown to love and study. We have some good folks involved in the HRD; Betty Morris of the "Historical Society" in St. Louis, James Rubinfine of "An Earlier Time" magazine (retired editor) - New England states, William Eaton of "The Colonial Society" magazine out of Williamburg, Buck Conner of Clark & Sons Merc. (retired) and of this list - Colorado, myself from Pennsylvaina and several others that I have not had the pleasure of meeting yet. We are all experienced in a number of different areas of living history, museums, etc., we are given a subject to investage, research, document and then report our findings to HRD, for now the time doesn't warrent the pay - more of a love of doing research and just learning about our forefather's and what life was like living then. Hope that helps with your question Dave. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 10:24:11 -0700 Sorry folks, Changed the subject line and sent, didn't realize the message had already been sent, have a good Sunday. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List:The Ice man. Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:05:40 -0600 The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada, not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar tools of the trade. Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country. The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a few years ago. Hey Concho, I have been waiting for a conversation to start up from those who went to Fort Union. Lot of hullabaloo before the event and silent after it. However the above is well within interest to remark about it. It is a singular ice man we are talking about. And as background. I was stationed with NATO forces in Vicenza, Italy. Very close to where the ice man and the equipment he was carrying was found. The reason that I am saying this is the fact that there is a remarkable similarity of appearance between the Alps where the ice man was found and the Beartooth Mountains that are on the north east edge of Yellowstone Park as seen from Billings, Montana. Looking at the Alps from Vicenza is an almost identical view from Billings, Montana to the Beartooth Mountains. The same distance. The same direction. A similar river [the Po] to the Yellowstone. A rimrock right next to the river as it does in Billings. The Alps are about the same height. Valleys go in the same way. Tops appear similar. I carried my long straight bow with me when I went to Italy. I carried my bow and arrows as I look around the country. Several times up along the border Austria where the ice man was found. When I first saw the news report I got one of those VBG on my face as I realized I could visualize the place being reported about. I grew concerned when I miss understand in the conjecturing that was being published. I would like to see this conversation around the camp fire keep going. Makes a good subject for long term understanding of mountain men from some place else. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: OT - "NO MORE" on mammoths-mastadons Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:05:42 -0600 "We study the history of the Fur Trade and experiment with the equipage used in that time (reproduction and original) as well as making our camps, sampling the foods, etc. in trying to experience the life styles of our forefathers". Buck Conner 1971. From an article written for the "BuckSkin Report" thirty years ago and he as well as many others, (thousands) are still working at that experience, so let's work as we have in the past as a team in discovering what these great men of the fur trade found and how they lived from day to day through good documentation. Hey Concho, Wow! How big this movement has grown within my life time. Some of you fellars might ought to try to stop and camp on some of this historic ground particularly to understand what it takes to winter through. Neat to know Buck Conner was writing back in 71 for the Buckskin Report about experience the life styles of our forefathers. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 12:06:15 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > ______________________________________________ > > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > >"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > > before production". > > ________________________________________HRD__ > > > Concho, > How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all > about. > > Dave Kanger > > --------------------- Dave, You should have never asked "Concho" a question, he hasn't stopped e-mailing for an hour, probably made the paper kid mad and didn't get the Sunday News, or the girl friend is out of town. So far he's patted you on the back, made Pablo mad, and put everyone on the list to sleep, who knows what's next. As far as the statement Concho mentioned about your reenactment group in or near Lisle, ILL - how is it doing and do you still hold your rendezvous ? Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List:TOF HRD and Concho Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:23:18 -0600 As for the HRD; "HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT", like their statement says "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production" is just that. After good documentation with research on a given item has been completed, a sample may be made and worked with (field trialed) to see if that item is worthy of being reproduced and made available to the public, then a study is made to see how marketable that item is (will it sell). HRD would produce working models, schematics (blue prints) and documentation of the item to those that produce such things with like quality and offered to a marketing group to wholesale that item. Sounds like an opportunity to further capitalize on the history of this place with the marketing effort you are talking about Concho. We been doing the same thing over the years but there is only a handful of us here along the Yellowstone where a huge rush of tourists are expected to start. We have already been seeing them. We may be interested in some finished product/s but more likely supplies. Push on it ain't that far to the top of the ridge. Good post Concho and thanks for asking TOF. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:28:56 -0600 -----Original Message----- Sounds like a lot of work for making something period correct, but that is how this sport has grown with the deciated reenacter, historian and history buff - those that want correct equipage to experience the choosen time frame that they have grown to love and study. D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". Concho, Interesting that you would call this a sport. That was my eldest son who passed in 97 nick name. I consider this a life style. A desirable way to live. In around and among the mountains everyday. Wouldn't have it any other way. Except I am over the hill and looking off toward the other side camp. VBG Keep up the interesting posts. It has been dead on this history list. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 14:58:47 -0700 I know this is OT, but I wonder if Mamoths were good eatin ? Hmmmm ? On another topic, was it common for old cross-cut saws to be recycled into knives, in the fur trade era ? I have a old skinnin knife that appears to have been home made from a very old saw blade. Anyone have any thoughts ? Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: RE: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:19:00 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > Sounds like a lot of work for making something period correct, but that is > how this sport has grown with................. > Concho. > --------------------------- > Concho, > > Interesting that you would call this a sport. That was my eldest son who > passed in 97 nick name. I consider this a life style. A desirable way to > live. In around and among the mountains everyday. Wouldn't have it any > other way. Except I am over the hill and looking off toward the other side > camp. VBG > > Keep up the interesting posts. It has been dead on this history list. > > Walt Walt, I guess this way of life is still considered a sport as long as there are folks making maney on it selling their wares and there are folks looking at it as an activity to be involved in after their daily work. But I have to agree in what you said about a good way of life for those so lucky. As for "HRD": To date we have researched building sites, camp/encampment sites, and portage areas; one of interest to those involved in the Fur Trade was the David Thompson’s house and trading post, the "Kulleyspell House" at Sand Point - Idaho. Another Fur Trade project that turned out to be fun was the research of Marino Medina and some of his clothing found at Masonville - Colorado. This discovery changed the fur trade reenactment groups and the AMM [American Mountain Men] thinking on breeches being used this late in the century. The reenacter, historian or history buff of the Rev. War would be interested that at Valley Forge - Pennsylvania, at a site of a mounded trench, remains of an early copper boiler and it's half eaten iron bail proved to the reenactment and history buff’s that such items made of copper where being used and available to the common soldier. Up to this point everyone, the ALHA [American Long Hunter Association] and several other groups assumed only tin or iron pots where used by armed forces in this time frame. For the American Civil War student in the woods at Gettsyburg we found spent musket balls, parts or forks, knives, belt buckles from both sides, small hand tools, etc. A remote camp site near present day Jefferson - New York yielded French & Indian and Rev. War campware items, all interesting for each period and it lets your imagination run wild with what could of happened at one of these locations. Some items found, researched, with a reproduction model made, are then field tested for their original intended use in an attempt to see if it was an effective item for it's purpose. With permission from the: organization, association or owner, a study is made to determine if production of the article and marketing is a worthwhile venture. Many times the item would have limited success, only interest being a few museums or private collectors from the area the article was found, thus not worth the investment needed in making it available to the wholesale/retail trade. Many of the items recovered are parts or pieces of a larger object, thus making an interesting research project that can lead you in several different directions before discovering what your dealing with. There are so many neat items being unearthed at this time in our countries history it's hard to be involved in everyone, but we make an honest effort to investigate as many as time allows. Thank you for visiting with us, please do come back again. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:28:43 -0700 > > Concho, > > How about you or Buck let us ignorant pilgrims know what this outfit is all > > about. > > > > Dave Kanger > > > > --------------------- > > Dave, > > You should have never asked "Concho" a question, he hasn't stopped e-mailing for an hour, probably made the paper kid mad and didn't get the Sunday News, or the girl friend is out of town. So far he's patted you on the back, made Pablo mad, and put everyone on the list to sleep, who knows what's next. > > As far as the statement Concho mentioned about your reenactment group in or near Lisle, ILL - how is it doing and do you still hold your rendezvous ? > > Later, > > Barry "Buck" Conner --------------------------- Thanks brother, I just used your information on "HRD" to answer Walt, now your probably going to give me hell about that, only kidding Buck. And I screwed up on one post giving credit to you for that comment from "Buckskin Report" 1971, that was made by "Wound'd Bear" now known as you, Buck changes names when the girls start to compare notes, HA HA. We are even now HA HA . Dave let us know how the group is doing in ILL, we sure had some good times at your rendezvous. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: RE: MtMan-List:The Ice man. Date: 08 Oct 2000 13:40:30 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > > > The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's > this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of > great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada, > not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what > they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures > that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar > tools of the trade. > > Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect > themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several > on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European > "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern > mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass > coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country. > The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest > in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and > South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a > few years ago. > > > > Hey Concho, > > I have been waiting for a conversation to start up from those who went to > Fort Union. Lot of hullabaloo before the event and silent after it. > However the above is well within interest to remark about it. > > It is a singular ice man we are talking about. And as background. I was > stationed with NATO forces in Vicenza, Italy. Very close to where the ice > man and the equipment he was carrying was found. The reason that I am > saying this is the fact that there is a remarkable similarity of appearance > between the Alps where the ice man was found and the Beartooth Mountains > that are on the north east edge of Yellowstone Park as seen from Billings, > Montana. Looking at the Alps from Vicenza is an almost identical view from > Billings, Montana to the Beartooth Mountains. The same distance. The same > direction. A similar river [the Po] to the Yellowstone. A rimrock right > next to the river as it does in Billings. The Alps are about the same > height. Valleys go in the same way. Tops appear similar. I carried my > long straight bow with me when I went to Italy. I carried my bow and arrows > as I look around the country. Several times up along the border Austria > where the ice man was found. > > When I first saw the news report I got one of those VBG on my face as I > realized I could visualize the place being reported about. I grew concerned > when I miss understand in the conjecturing that was being published. I > would like to see this conversation around the camp fire keep going. Makes > a good subject for long term understanding of mountain men from some place > else. > > Walt ----------------------- Walt, I'm looking for my notes on his fire kit, medicine, etc. this mountainman (Ice Man) of the past was well heeled with much the same as we carry in "living history" camps. Buck's friend Jerry LaVelle, a student of 30 years of wild edibles of the Rockies has really gotten into this find the Ice Man, has duplicated some of the items, does the "Primitive Society" camps like "Winter Count" and "Rabbit Stick" every year just because of the interest of the "Ice Man". We the members of the hist_list and the "Ice Man" are very similar in how we survive will in camp and on the trail, its amazing how close in equipage as you say. I'll be back as that big dumby says. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 16:43:07 EDT You know I bet mammoths would have been excellent eating if cooked properly in a Dutch oven . Laura Glise (I couldn't help myself. Pendleton dared me to do it.) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 15:32:50 -0600 Hi Laura, Do you and Pendleton know the difference between the Mammoth and Mastodon? Were either you or Pendleton at fort union? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wind1838@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 2:43 PM You know I bet mammoths would have been excellent eating if cooked properly in a Dutch oven . Laura Glise (I couldn't help myself. Pendleton dared me to do it.) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 08 Oct 2000 15:32:52 -0600 I guess this way of life is still considered a sport as long as there are folks making maney on it selling their wares and there are folks looking at it as an activity to be involved in after their daily work. But I have to agree in what you said about a good way of life for those so lucky. Concho, I always thought that was trading not sport. I don't call it luck, but I guess your right. Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 17:36:24 -0700 Mastodon? >> Hell Walt I can't even spell such a thing without a computer. No I wasn't at Fort Union. Maybe I outta have been though. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List:The Ice man. Date: 08 Oct 2000 16:55:08 -0600 --------------C359885711BBE4F093D48135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concho wrote: > On Sun, 08 October 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > > The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's > > this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of > > great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada, > > not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what > > they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures > > that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar > > tools of the trade. > > > > Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect > > themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several > > on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European > > "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern > > mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass > > coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country. > > The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest > > in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and > > South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a > > few years ago. > > Hey Concho, > > > > I have been waiting for a conversation to start up from those who went to > > Fort Union. Lot of hullabaloo before the event and silent after it. > > However the above is well within interest to remark about it. It is a singular ice man we are talking about. And as background. I was stationed with NATO forces in Vicenza, Italy. Very close to where the ice........................ > > When I first saw the news report I got one of those VBG on my face as I > > realized I could visualize the place being reported about. I grew concerned > > when I miss understand in the conjecturing that was being published. I > > would like to see this conversation around the camp fire keep going. Makes > > a good subject for long term understanding of mountain men from some place > > else. > > > > Walt > ----------------------- > > Walt, > > I'm looking for my notes on his fire kit, medicine, etc. this mountainman (Ice Man) of the past was well heeled with much the same as we carry in "living history" camps................. > > I'll be back as that big dumby says. > > In the footsteps of others, > > D. L. "Concho" Smith We know who the "big dummy" is don't we Concho ! Don't tell him I've change my e-mail address to: conner1@uswest.net please make a change on your address book, thanks. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------C359885711BBE4F093D48135 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Concho wrote:
On Sun, 08 October 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote:
> The members of this list would be more interested in material that fit's
> this hist_list; "fur trade 1800-1840's". But one subject that seems to be of
> great interest is the discovery of the "Icemen" found in Europe and Canada,
> not our period - but the interest lies in; these where survivors by what
> they carried. Much like the mountainmen, the exployers and the adventures
> that moved around in the fur trade in N. America, survivors with similar
> tools of the trade.
>
> Example: fire making kits, herbs for medicine, weapons, clothing to protect
> themselves - items that compare; some items of great interest that several
> on this list are working with now. I am very interested in the European
> "Iceman's" fire kit, char, etc., has he found something that we the modern
> mountainmen need to know about ? A friend of Buck's is working with a grass
> coat that he wore, much like one's worn by early natives in this country.
> The "Primitive Society" and "An Earlier Time" magazines have great interest
> in both these men as well as, "early man through the fur trade" in North and
> South America according to William Eaton and James Rubinfine's artilces a
> few years ago.
> Hey Concho,
>
> I have been waiting for a conversation to start up from those who went to
> Fort Union.  Lot of hullabaloo before the event and silent after it.
> However the above is well within interest to remark about it.  It is a singular ice man we are talking about.  And as background.  I was stationed with NATO forces in Vicenza, Italy.  Very close to where the ice........................
> When I first saw the news report I got one of those VBG on my face as I
> realized I could visualize the place being reported about.  I grew concerned
> when I miss understand in the conjecturing that was being published.  I
> would like to see this conversation around the camp fire keep going.  Makes
> a good subject for long term understanding of mountain men from some place
> else.
>
> Walt
-----------------------

Walt,

I'm looking for my notes on his fire kit, medicine, etc. this mountainman (Ice Man) of the past was well heeled with much the same as we carry in "living history" camps.................

I'll be back as that big dumby says.

In the footsteps of others,

D. L. "Concho" Smith

We know who the "big dummy" is don't we Concho !

Don't tell him I've change my e-mail address to:

conner1@uswest.net

please make a change on your address book, thanks.

Later,

Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
   ______________________________________________
         HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers".
   ________________________________________HRD__
Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
                                                            Aux Aliments de Pays!
______________________________________________
 
  --------------C359885711BBE4F093D48135-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MAMOTHS AND SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 08 Oct 2000 18:59:13 -0700 Walt, Actually both Mammoths and Matodons are the critters that modern elephants were descended from. The difference between them is the Mastodons had complete tuberculate teeth. Of course both the Mammoths and Mastodons were covered with a coat of shaggy hair. How would you like to braintan a hide that big ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- Hi Laura, Do you and Pendleton know the difference between the Mammoth and Mastodon? Were either you or Pendleton at fort union? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wind1838@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 2:43 PM You know I bet mammoths would have been excellent eating if cooked properly in a Dutch oven . Laura Glise (I couldn't help myself. Pendleton dared me to do it.) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - "NO MORE" on mammoths-mastadons Date: 08 Oct 2000 18:49:08 -0700 yes It is neat to know. I have fond memories of the Big Timber Rendezvous. The Buckskin Report inspired a few of us Northern Ca boys to start our own handwritten magazine called The Voice of The Mountains. We started having our Rendezvous In the mountains and used the flatland Rendezvous as a resupply source. Pre 1840 became a historical goal, and the "doing" was more important than winning a pretty tipi contest. Each to his own though and the only time I really got upset was when the fellow showed up with his blaze orange mountain tent, the dog soldier was polite and didn't ask him to leave--- but put him far enough away from camp that we could disclaim knowing him. Ten years later that feller was making the beaver come and was doing some fine brain tan. YMOS, Doc --- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 12:05 PM > "We study the history of the Fur Trade and experiment with the equipage used > in that time (reproduction and original) as well as making our camps, > sampling the foods, etc. in trying to experience the life styles of our > forefathers". Buck Conner 1971. From an article written for the "BuckSkin > Report" thirty years ago and he as well as many others, (thousands) are > still working at that experience, so let's work as we have in the past as a > team in discovering what these great men of the fur trade found and how they > lived from day to day through good documentation. > > Hey Concho, > > Wow! How big this movement has grown within my life time. Some of you > fellars might ought to try to stop and camp on some of this historic ground > particularly to understand what it takes to winter through. > > Neat to know Buck Conner was writing back in 71 for the Buckskin Report > about experience the life styles of our forefathers. > > Walt > Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 09 Oct 2000 00:18:32 EDT > Haven't talked to you for sometime, last time I saw you was at your doin's at > the river near Lisle, Ill., is that group still in operation - very impressive and well organized. Buck and Concho, Unfortunately, the group went down the tubes. I told them in January of 99 that I couldn't do all the work anymore and needed help. They all agreed, but no one came forward. A couple of months later, we did the same thing. Everyone agreed, but no one came forward. Then I told them that I was resigning and someone needed to take over. No one came forward. They decided to hold a meeting after the event, which they did. I didn't attend, but the group folded because no one was willing to take over. It's now defunct.........people get out of an organization what they put into it. I guess I must have been the one putting everything into it and it was only a social gathering for the rest. The Rendezvous is now held with the help of recruited volunteers. The whole steering committee has changed. I heard that they paid professional actors this year to portray various characters who would have been around the Canal during its heyday. The event will continue, but I think its focus is away from a period correct enactment and more toward a period correct carnival. Too much politics for me. > We all need more like you and yours, thanks. Thanks for the kind words, but I think the days of new folks stepping in and taking over with the zeal and dedication to work that we had are falling by the wayside. We were really the bridge between the generations......old enough to remember "the good old days" and young enough to still become enthused about them. Most of us still had living relatives who participated on the tail end of the Fur Trade. Today's generation doesn't seem to have the connection that we did. Period correct items today are things that yuppies buy off Ebay and hang in their living rooms. They don't seem to care much what they are, only that they are old. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 09 Oct 2000 00:35:29 EDT > You should have never asked "Concho" a question, he hasn't stopped e-mailing > for an hour, probably made the paper kid mad and didn't get the Sunday News, > or the girl friend is out of town. So far he's patted you on the back, made > Pablo mad, and put everyone on the list to sleep, who knows what's next. Buck, That is why he so uniquely suited for his new job. He forgets everything he learns..........therefore he is always learning more new things. I think they call it CRS. > As far as the statement Concho mentioned about your reenactment group in or > near Lisle, ILL - how is it doing and do you still hold your rendezvous ? Read the sorry details in my posting to him. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD(Keep the Faith) Date: 08 Oct 2000 22:09:08 -0700 Dave, Hi..... I'm hardtack. I just wanted to say...keep the faith. There are still some of us 'youngsters' out here carrying on. I'm 41 years young, with 19 years since my first rdvs.. My children grew up attending rdvs.. I spend the majority of my precious vacation time trekking, attending rdvs., etc... I am close to the 1,000 mile mark via primitive canoe trekking.(can't afford a horse, although I did one 5 day horse trek , great experience). I volunteer to help out with many related activities and doin's. I am not alone! I have many companeros who are my equal, or better. I'm sorry that none of them are aquainted with you , and your doin's. I have a great reverence for my oldsters, and their experiences. I have seen your many postings here, and hope to share a fire with you someday. We all need to be more involved in order for this way of life to survive. Heed the call, work hard to keep the old ways alive. We owe it to the following generations. I'm glad that men like you have cleared the trail for my generation. It's up to us, fellows, to keep the trail cleared. Volunteer.... Keep this way of life alive.... My hat is off to you Dave. Your friend and brother, hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 01:09:22 EDT Howdy Walt We ran that Charlie Russell and that out fit he road for out of Henry Idaho. I heard it was for dressin fun That's when they moved to Montana. I heard they fit right in there. Really old Charlie is a little bit late to even have any thing to do with the fur trade and what was worn. I did not know that they came up with the word Dude about the time you started riding horses. I hope it was not because of any thing you were doing. Fifty years in the saddle, pack up to seven horses at a time and you don't tie nothing down and you have never lost a hat to the wind or a knife or nothing. Man you have got to be the luckiest man on earth. Or is it just getting a mite more windy in Montana? I believe in walking the walk if your going to talk the talk. I always thought Drug Store Cowboys was them fellers that dress the part and talk the talk but don't even know how to walk. When ya learn to run Walt I'll see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] HRD Date: 09 Oct 2000 06:15:58 -0600 --------------EBF6757419477E5A1096363C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > Buck and Concho, > Unfortunately, the group went down the tubes. I told them in January of 99 > that I couldn't do all the work anymore and needed help. They all agreed, > but no one came forward. A couple of months later, we did the same thing. > Everyone agreed, but no one came forward. Then I told them that I was > resigning and someone needed to take over. No one came forward. They > decided to hold a meeting after the event, which they did. I didn't attend, > but the group folded because no one was willing to take over. It's now > defunct.........people get out of an organization what they put into it. I > guess I must have been the one putting everything into it and it was only a > social gathering for the rest. Been there done that, then returned and did it a few more times when our State Muzzle Loading Assn., it's rendezvous' went on it's butt. It took a dozen years for someone to wake up and learn if they want to play they have to pay (work the program). Sorry to see all your effort was lost, but you have to admit you had fun while involved, now looking back. > We were really the bridge between the generations......old enough to remember > "the good old days" and young enough to still become enthused about them. Most > of us still had living relatives who participated on the tail end of the Fur > Trade. Today's generation doesn't seem to have the connection that we did. > > Dave Kanger Isn't that the truth, we talk about Baird, Long Step, Crazy Bear, Brass Turtle and the Buckskin Report or Charley Hanson, Curly G. or some that showed us the way and many just think we're just old and know nothing. Not realizing that they missed some of the great historians that we have had the chance to know and love, God bless them all. I don't think I ever looked at the Hanson's, Baird, Turner or Clymer as being old, we where interested in history of the fur trade and they had the answers, they where our hero's. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------EBF6757419477E5A1096363C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote:

Buck and Concho,
Unfortunately, the group went down the tubes.  I told them in January of 99
that I couldn't do all the work anymore and needed help.  They all agreed,
but no one came forward.  A couple of months later,  we did the same thing.
Everyone agreed, but no one came forward.  Then I told them that I was
resigning and someone needed to take over.  No one came forward.  They
decided to hold a meeting after the event, which they did.  I didn't attend,
but the group folded because no one was willing to take over.  It's now
defunct.........people get out of an organization what they put into it.  I
guess I must have been the one putting everything into it and it was only a
social gathering for the rest.
Been there done that, then returned and did it a few more times when our State Muzzle Loading Assn., it's rendezvous' went on it's butt.  It took a dozen years for someone to wake up and learn if they want to play they have to pay (work the program).  Sorry to see all your effort was lost, but you have to admit you had fun while involved, now looking back.
We were really the bridge between the generations......old enough to remember "the good old days" and young enough to still become enthused about them.  Most of us still had living relatives who participated on the tail end of the Fur Trade.  Today's generation doesn't seem to have the connection that we did.

Dave Kanger

Isn't that the truth, we talk about Baird, Long Step, Crazy Bear, Brass Turtle and the Buckskin Report or Charley Hanson, Curly G. or some that showed us the way and many just think we're just old and know nothing.  Not realizing that they missed some of the great historians that we have had the chance to know and love, God bless them all.  I don't think I ever looked at the Hanson's, Baird, Turner or Clymer as being old, we where interested in history of the fur trade and they had the answers, they where our hero's.

Later,

Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
   ______________________________________________
         HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers".
   ________________________________________HRD__
Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
                                                            Aux Aliments de Pays!
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  --------------EBF6757419477E5A1096363C-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Billy Corgan" Subject: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 11:16:53 EDT To those whom i have upset, or not: My name is chris riddle. i am a junior in college in ohio. i have other names on my email because i get alot of junk and solicitation via that address, and if they dont know my real name/address/phone number, then i am harder to contact. my email address is drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com i am currently reconfiguring my topic on my paper to: Did the fur trade of the upper missouri river have an impact on the culture of the native americans in that region? from that which i have so read so far, i would say yes. now my goal is to see if i am correct in my first opinion and if what the impacts were. as for my past emails. it is somtimes necessary to drum up some argument to get answers. maybe i was a little ignorant in some of my dealings, and for those i apologize. i am trying to gather a large amount of information, and anything i can get my hands on i plan to. i felt this list would have many great minds on it with many resources at their disposal, so far i have not been disappointed. my statement about man messing up nature i still stand by. no creature in the history of earth has had such an impact on the face of this planet as has man. the building of cities, towns, roads, and many other structures is just the beginning. it is impossible to get away from man on earth. our effects on our planet will be our own demise, and that is just a matter of time. hopefully this email spoke more of my true beliefs and was a bit more mature in its content and nature. again, i thank those of you who have helped me, and any further information would be appreciated. -chris riddle junior environmental policy and analysis major drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 09:41:20 -0600 Howdy Walt We ran that Charlie Russell and that out fit he road for out of Henry Idaho. I heard it was for dressin fun That's when they moved to Montana. I heard they fit right in there. Really old Charlie is a little bit late to even have any thing to do with the fur trade and what was worn. I did not know that they came up with the word Dude about the time you started riding horses. I hope it was not because of any thing you were doing. Fifty years in the saddle, pack up to seven horses at a time and you don't tie nothing down and you have never lost a hat to the wind or a knife or nothing. Man you have got to be the luckiest man on earth. Or is it just getting a mite more windy in Montana? I believe in walking the walk if your going to talk the talk. I always thought Drug Store Cowboys was them fellers that dress the part and talk the talk but don't even know how to walk. When ya learn to run Walt I'll see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot Why, Crazy Cyot: Thanks for uplifting my spirits on this very fine day here in the heart of the American Mountain Man country where I was born and raised. As for Charlie Russell: He came into Montana as a young lad. Rode with the Metis out of Utica. What do you mean "We ran that Charlie Russell..." Better double check your history. Charlie road with some of the last of the mixed bloods who had direct connections to the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. They were called Dude ranches by 1900, here in Montana. I'll will get back to my horse time after I take my wife to the doctors. Actually it is a nice hunting day in south central Montana without much wind. The wind seems to blow in over Montana. Some of it might be coming from your direction VBG Thanks for lifting my cast iron kettle lid before sun up this morning. Have a good day sport. Walt out of his badgerhole Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 09:44:24 -0600 To those whom i have upset, or not: My name is chris riddle. Good come back, Stick to your subject of interest. Don't let the emotional asides side track you. Your interest is worth. Question where the replies are stemming from. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 03 Jan 2000 23:32:56 -0700 Chris, Ecology along with mother nature has a way of healing itself if given enough time. Some Wildlife species for example rebounded in overwhelming numbers. Whitetail deer were almost depleted in areas of the east at the beginning of the 20th century as well as turkey. In fact, even before that, the buffalo was used to supply the meat market back east due to low numbers of game animal available. The pronghorn of Wyoming was low in numbers in the early years. Yet due to good game mgt and game laws, many of these species have returned to unnatual numbers given the available habitat. I like to qoute "Years ago we had islands of civilzation in the wilderness, now we have just the opposite. The defining criterial is winter habitat in the west. This is what we are losing. Some species will adapt easily to encroachment of man, such as raccoons, coyotes, some birds, etc and of coarse cockroaches. Other are more sensitive such as frogs and toads and others of their kind. I do not believe that Fur Trappers imposed a long term effect on the ecology of the east or west that Manifest Destiny in not do over the long run. Nature takes a long time to heal when damaged through man's efforts or Nature itself, (fire, floods, earthquakes) We just do have the privilage of being around long enough to record it. Read Aldo Leopolds book. I'm sure it is still required reading in wildlife classes Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:45:44 GMT Ho the List! I am coming into this discussion late. I have been behind on my e-mail and had to delete a bunch of old postings to the list before I had a chance to read them, just sticking to the new ones. So, I have a question for Chris: What have you read in the form of primary and secondary sources so far? If you want to keep our discussion off the list, feel free to e-mail me directly at hunter1828@hotmail.com. I am a ranger with the US National Park Service, and an historian, at Fort Union Trading Post NHS and would like to share some possible source material with you that you may not have looked at. Thanks, Robert W. Thomson "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com i am currently reconfiguring my topic on my paper to: Did the fur trade of the upper missouri river have an impact on the culture of the native americans in that region? from that which i have so read so far, i would say yes. now my goal is to see if i am correct in my first opinion and if what the impacts were. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: horses and mules Date: 09 Oct 2000 13:55:18 MDT HO CAMP! crazy cyot'' sorry about getting into this horses thing so late, but my email handler went lame. now walt i'm only 29, just look a little older because iv lead a shamefull life. joking aside, i have been in all sides of the horse buss. bu i have allways tried to relive the fur trade even if it was horse back or trapping. just to see if it could be done like the books. i have scars to show the good and bad. to back up my horse side of life.i hold a world champenship in western performance class, i guided and packed in the bob marshall full time for 3 years.part time and trail road in most of montana wilderness. when i started the griz was just another bear to the fish and game. i know how many mules you can pull and be save and i know how many a good hand can pack and get the goods to camp. i allso have pick up stuff off trails. I do not loss stuff off the pack. have left stuff at camp and from horse recks on the trail. but to fall off,not after first year. i have not need a choke string for my hat in the deep mountains. but then i grew up wearing hats. On the big open country i have used a hat jerk string whele working cows. but hid it in the hat befor i went to town. the pride thing you know. knifes, cannot say i ever lost one out of belt,usless i was in a horse ,mule reck,the i usly lost my pride and alot of hide with my knife. i have left knife at kill sits. the little people of the crow people must have a hell of collection. i try and check my steak cutter. this is enough on this for now. oh,yea, i have that trophy at hiverant metis location if you want to check on me. but come ready to do alittle horse tradeing and a full billfold. my limp is the only trophy i got for guiding and packing. i try and stay away from this past thing(makes me feel old). but SON if you want storys on griz bears,horses,mules and black powder i got the real thing for you, all you have to do is keep the fire going and feed me(and son you haven,t seen me eat). older than 21 ponyrider but more than fifty years of wet saddle blankets than harness leather and buckles make all kinds of neat things but alot of brain tain was around ready to use for what ever _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: buckskinning sub society Date: 09 Oct 2000 14:34:54 MDT walt , concho and camp. i was at a rondie and ran into a couple greeners. they were a goup of profs from some collage( leaving out names for a reason) studing as many mt man type fuctions they xcound. said there were different unv. woundering if buckskinner cound be sub society. also the fact that with a armed camped there seemed to be no confrountation serious jury type. just woundering if ether of you ran into that. damit walt old my ass , you and i will still be shanking our spirs in the ears of broncs and shooting our 1803 ,s yelling get out of my way, here i come. when the time comes. look in the shadow,s behind you i,m there ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: MtMan-List: OT............NRA..........tonight on ABC Date: 09 Oct 2000 13:56:34 -0700 Friends, As some of you may know, tonight on ABC, Peter Jennings will moderate what "appears" to be a expose' ,of sorts, on the NRA. It will involve its dealings within the Congress, Charlton Heston and other topics you might imagine. The previews appear rather interesting. John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: misur trade,no name Date: 09 Oct 2000 15:01:11 MDT people or griz bears disrup the blance of nature just by living. i have read thiss. papers on differen things of the indian and fur trading time,s. make sure you look at whole picture not just your own or from your group of study. you are dealing in the whole scope of things of nature. man is only a weak two legged. becarefull of high ups, native american class that never been in sweats or studiet that never been on the land for all seasons are teaching a class room short a lesson. even with my spelling and mis keys i put my name on the page. a person that fails to use their name doesn>t have the sand to stand in back of what they say. allso if you don,t want anyone to know your name how can we believe your work or want you have to say. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 09 Oct 2000 18:00:07 EDT Hey all you coons out there! Would this here coon be getting a good rifle-gun with that Lyman .50 cal fer as the PC of the rifle is concerned? -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 09 Oct 2000 18:11:07 -0400 I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later. My persona is the 1835 Longhunter and it fits me. It is also a great shooting rifle. I think it is modeled after the original Hawken. I can not wait to hear from all the experts on this one. FVR ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 6:00 PM > Hey all you coons out there! > > Would this here coon be getting a good rifle-gun with that Lyman .50 cal fer > as the PC of the rifle is concerned? > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:13:41 -0600 I am a ranger with the US National Park Service, and an historian, at Fort Union Trading Post NHS and would like to share some possible source material with you that you may not have looked at. Thanks, Robert W. Thomson "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union Hello Robert, How did the Fort Union Trading Post gathering go. I have seen little posted about the event. Might consider sharing sources with the list also. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:13:44 -0600 Howdy Walt Fifty years in the saddle, pack up to seven horses at a time and you don't tie nothing down and you have never lost a hat to the wind or a knife or nothing. Man you have got to be the luckiest man on earth. Or is it just getting a mite more windy in Montana? I believe in walking the walk if your going to talk the talk. I always thought Drug Store Cowboys was them fellers that dress the part and talk the talk but don't even know how to walk. When ya learn to run Walt I'll see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot Actually it was 54 years ago that I have one of my best memories on my way to becoming a horseman. 1946 was the summer I got my first job up on horse back. I was paid to capitalize on my shooting skills. Admittedly I was a small timer at this time but it was a grand and glorious job for me and I made good hard honest money from my shooting. I had 5 horses at this time. I am talking about Phillipsburg, Montana. Along side Flint Creek about 4 miles below town. The fact is that at that time I could not get up on my horse without help. I learned to coax my horse over to the fence. And get him to stand there. I put my air gun on the fence and climbed the fence. Grab a bit of mane and slide over on the horse. Got my gun. Talked and urged the horse into motion. His movement did not disturb the gophers which were my target. I would shoot one and then guide my horse over to the fence. Reverse the process to get down. Go get the gopher before I lost track of it. And then make the walk to get someone to pump up my Benjamin Air Rifle. Go to my horse and start all over again. Some days I got 5 a shift. Oh ya, I got my second paying job that fall after school. It was sweeping out the sawdust from my father's meat market. I made a dime. Less than I did on horse back. And I felt I was already establishing my self as a hunter nor a broom pusher. Moving on a few years. Shortly after returning from the Army I received word via my Grandfather that his friend Larry Folger was looking for a hand to replace the one let go in Chisana, Alaska. The northern end of the Rocky Mountain chain. I left Dillon, Montana right after the Alaskan earth quake for Larry's outfit. My job was to wrangle 54 head of horses he used in his guiding service there. One of my first assignments was to doctor a horse named Blue. He had suffered a bad cut behind his right hoof from a mispacked camp stove. My first main focus was to learn the expanse of the country he hunted and to learn to know the horses he wanted me to catch. I had to walk 6 to 8 miles in the dark to catch the horses. The one I would ride and lead 5,6 or 7 more. I only had one problem and that was a bear scare. I was expected to be back in camp with them before sunup. Sometimes on the way back I would see the tracks of very big bears over the top of my before light tracks. Larry's hunting trips were 21 days of hunting for 2,500 at the time. The person I replaced could not pack or cook. I will admit that in one way or another I am a lucky man. And I have never lost my knife while on horse back and I have never lost my hat either. I grew up learning the ropes. And as far as horses are concerned I have played my cards right. Just my guess, but I believe I have been running in, among, around and over the mountains as long as you have and maybe a little longer. As you were saying? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 09 Oct 2000 15:50:16 -0700 (PDT) --- HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Hey all you coons out there! Would this here coon be getting a good rifle-gun with that Lyman .50 cal fer as the PC of the rifle is concerned? > -C.Kent Yes, it's an excellent gun to begin with. My Lyman GPR (Great Plains Rifle) kit just came in and this time I'm going to flatten the buttplate's curve a little bit and remove the corresponding wood for a easier mounting and prone shooting as well as off-hand. Don't know about the other two models they offer. ===== defstones Somewhere on this globe, every ten seconds, there is a woman giving birth to a child. She must be found and stopped. Sam Levenson (1911-1980) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:51:49 -0600 Chris, Nothing remains the same. If we were not here then what would the conditions be?. We were not here and the Dinaseaurs wen't extinct. It is all worthless, things will equal out on there own. Central America was populated by millions now it is jungle, who would have guessed. We did not hunt the buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame, the numbers don't add up. How would you tell an American Horse from a Spanish horse once they got free?. What I am saying is this, there have been a lot of sudo Science put on us for political gain that have never been proven. Think that would make a great paper. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Billy Corgan" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: missouri river >Date: Mon, Oct 9, 2000, 9:16 AM > >To those whom i have upset, or not: >My name is chris riddle. >i am a junior in college in ohio. >i have other names on my email because i get alot of junk and solicitation >via that address, and if they dont know my real name/address/phone number, >then i am harder to contact. >my email address is drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com >i am currently reconfiguring my topic on my paper to: >Did the fur trade of the upper missouri river have an impact on the culture >of the native americans in that region? >from that which i have so read so far, i would say yes. >now my goal is to see if i am correct in my first opinion and if what the >impacts were. >as for my past emails. it is somtimes necessary to drum up some argument to >get answers. maybe i was a little ignorant in some of my dealings, and for >those i apologize. i am trying to gather a large amount of information, and >anything i can get my hands on i plan to. i felt this list would have many >great minds on it with many resources at their disposal, so far i have not >been disappointed. >my statement about man messing up nature i still stand by. no creature in >the history of earth has had such an impact on the face of this planet as >has man. the building of cities, towns, roads, and many other structures is >just the beginning. it is impossible to get away from man on earth. our >effects on our planet will be our own demise, and that is just a matter of >time. >hopefully this email spoke more of my true beliefs and was a bit more mature >in its content and nature. again, i thank those of you who have helped me, >and any further information would be appreciated. >-chris riddle >junior >environmental policy and analysis major >drownyoursorrows@hotmail.com >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 16:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Amen. I quoth: There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we don't know. Ambrose Bierce (1842 - 1914) --- "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Chris, > Nothing remains the same. If we were not here then > what would the conditions > be?. We were not here and the Dinaseaurs wen't > extinct. It is all worthless, > things will equal out on there own. Central America > was populated by > millions now it is jungle, who would have guessed. > We did not hunt the > buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to > blame, the numbers don't > add up. How would you tell an American Horse from a > Spanish horse once they > got free?. What I am saying is this, there have been > a lot of sudo Science > put on us for political gain that have never been > proven. Think that would > make a great paper. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- ===== defstones Somewhere on this globe, every ten seconds, there is a woman giving birth to a child. She must be found and stopped. Sam Levenson (1911-1980) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 17:10:24 -0600 How would you tell an American Horse from a Spanish horse once they got free?. Ole # 718 Hi Ole, The Spanish Barb has one less vertebra. The horses in the Pryor Mountains in Montana fit this description. Sometimes science comes of with good stuff. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 09 Oct 2000 23:24:51 GMT Walt, The symposium was excellent! We had over 200 attendees, which is twice the size of the last symposium here, which was in 1990. Talks and papers presented included such topics as "The Role of the Assiniboin in the Fort Union Fur Trade", "Rueben Lewis in the Upper Missouri Fur Trade", and "Reconstructing Fort Union". James Hanson gave and excellent talk after the Friday lunch entitled "Why I'm Fascinated with the Fur Trade". That was probably my favorite talk of all, followed closely by Dayton Duncan's talk on Lewis and Clark at the Confluence. The living history event at Fort Union was superb, even if it was a short three hours long. With the likes of John Luzader, Bruce "Spoon" Druliner, Michael Terry, Rex Norman, and many, many others, including all the local talent, participating. Many thanks to all that attended, and any that participated! Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Hello Robert, How did the Fort Union Trading Post gathering go. I have seen little posted about the event. Might consider sharing sources with the list also. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [OT] A Few Carry The Load To Much. Date: 09 Oct 2000 17:38:04 -0700 On Sun, 08 October 2000, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > Buck and Concho, > Unfortunately, the group went down the tubes. I told them in January of 99 > that I couldn't do all the work anymore and needed help. They all agreed, > but no one came forward. A couple of months later, we did the same thing. > Everyone agreed, but no one came forward. Then I told them that I was > resigning and someone needed to take over. No one came forward........... > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- Sorry to hear that Dave, it sure was good when we saw you back there. Buck Conner, Trapper Tom, and several others did the same thing for the Colorado State Muzzle Loading Assoc., worked their butts off for 12 or so years and couldn't get any help. A week before a major event some good old boys from Daniel Texas would always show up and work day and night on helping to setup whatever was needed. Butcher York was still a Major with the Colo. Nat. Guard and would furnish all the hospital tents needed for scoring, reg., etc. A funny thing happened with those Texas boys, they where hauling tents in a Nat.Guard 6X6 past the Commander of the post, the Commander about dropped his teeth when he saw the 6X6 was Colordao National Guard with Texas flags flying on the front fenders. They where the good old days, thanks to those Texas boys by the name of Furlows. Never see that kind of effort anymore or if you do it's still a few carrying the load, pretty sad. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 19:00:15 -0600 >Just my guess, but I believe I have been running in, >among, around and over the mountains as long as you have and maybe a little >longer. >Walt >Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 >Clark Bottom Rendezvous > Walt, There's a difference between a man in the mountains, and a mountain man. Allen in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: stampede strings Date: 09 Oct 2000 19:48:16 -0700 I lost my hat out on a trip once I had to go bare headed a couple of days the sun burned me up something awful suffered fever and chills all night. You won't catch me without a stampede string on my, "very necessary for comfort and survival" hat. just some thoughts; Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:16:19 -0600 I have a 54 cal Lyman Trade Gun which I have used for about 8 years, if I can help- let me know. mike. HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Hey all you coons out there! > > Would this here coon be getting a good rifle-gun with that Lyman .50 cal fer > as the PC of the rifle is concerned? > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:06:27 -0600 Walt, There's a difference between a man in the mountains, and a mountain man. Allen in Fort Hall country Yep, Allen: There sure is. The Metis built Fort Hall as well as Fort Union. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: stampede strings Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:06:30 -0600 I lost my hat out on a trip once I had to go bare headed a couple of days the sun burned me up something awful suffered fever and chills all night. You won't catch me without a stampede string on my, "very necessary for comfort and survival" hat. just some thoughts; Tom Hi Tom, I stayed out of that desert country. I never did like the heat. Didn't you have a rag of something you could shade your head with? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fort Union September 2000 Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:08:13 -0600 Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union Hi Robert, I spoke with Ron Tewalt from Sidney today he gave a glowing reports. I know Michael Terry. I have been seeing Bad Hand on the little horn every year for quite a while. He is an event all by himself. Everything is going to keep on growing with the Lewis and Clark Bicentennial starting up. You have a great place there. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:08:15 -0600 There's a difference between a man in the mountains, and a mountain man. Allen in Fort Hall country Boy you got that right. Might surprise you that the Metis build Fort Hall as well as Fort Union. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 09 Oct 2000 21:51:13 -0600 At 09:06 PM 10/09/2000 -0600, you wrote: >The Metis built Fort Hall as well as Fort Union. > >Walt >Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 How interesting. Did they come out with Nat Wyeth? I'd love to hear your documentation on that. Wyeth didn't seem to mention it...... Hey, I got a question. Is Al Gore Metis? Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: stampede strings Date: 09 Oct 2000 22:30:15 -0700 hey Walt, I did have a bandanna I tied it around my head pirate style. it helped a little but was'nt enough. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 8:06 PM > I lost my hat out on a trip once I had to go bare headed a couple of days > the sun burned me up something awful suffered fever and chills all night. > You won't catch me without a stampede string on my, "very necessary for > comfort and survival" hat. > just some thoughts; Tom > > > Hi Tom, > > I stayed out of that desert country. I never did like the heat. Didn't you > have a rag of something you could shade your head with? > > Walt > Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 > Clark Bottom Rendezvous > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis Date: 09 Oct 2000 23:13:55 -0600 Hey, I got a question. Is Al Gore Metis? Allen Hi Allen, Beats me. You might be in a better position to answer that than I am. We mostly vote Republican around here. I do know that there were several Metis with Lewis and Clark. Do you have a list of the names of the crew that built Fort Hall Trading Post? I have a question for you. What does the word Metis mean? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis Date: 09 Oct 2000 23:27:22 -0600 Walt, At 11:13 PM 10/09/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Do you have a list of the names of the crew that built Fort Hall Trading >Post? Good try. You made the statement that Metis built Fort Hall. I'm still interested in your documentation. > >I have a question for you. What does the word Metis mean? > Another good try. You tell the list. Maybe our difficulty here is a definition of terms. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Date: 10 Oct 2000 08:37:11 -0600 Jon, I know book of Mormon Scripture prety well, but I don't remember that. could you give me scripture and verse. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses >Date: Thu, Oct 5, 2000, 9:47 PM > >Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as >a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except for >1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. >[non-American Indian civilization]. > >Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the >Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the >Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = >Lamanite]. > >Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America have >been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will be >mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >from Michigan >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 13:12:56 -0400 Those of you who missed Mississnewa, missed a great time. Once again the AMM camps shined. Most of the AMM bros. gave talks or lectures to the public as they came by and looked and asked questions about their camps, clothing, accouterments, foods and many others things. The reenacted battles were said to be very good and thrilled the crowds. (I didn`t see them). The military surgeon done several demonstrations on medical operations. I got to see two of these demos. The victim was your all time favorite Dennis Miles wife (Gwen). The first he shot her in the arm as she tried to run away. The Dr. was removing the ball from her arm. The Dr. with the forceps pitched the ball into the crowd, had fake blood on it. Everyone jumped when he threw it, hit a 10-12 yr boy in the arm. You had to see the boys face to enjoy the surprise on it. As the Dr. removed the ball some conversation between the Doc and Dennis took place. After Dennis told his side a little old lady was heard to say as she looked Dennis straight in the eye, "you bastard". Needless to say ole Dennis wasn`t her favorite. Gwen was a great patience and actress. Her moans and screams came at the exact correct times. One little boy got to keep the ball. I believe he will remember Mississnewa 1812 for years to come. I do believe some of the public at first thought a real accident had happened. The star of the AMM camp was none other than Parker (ramrod) Moore and his famous horse Blackie. Parker gave many lectures on the horse and equipage. Told about every aspect of his chacter portrayal. He had lots of furs, trade items and a camp that reflected his chacter. He participated in the battles. In one battle a horse wreck occurred by accident. Thank the good Lord no one got hurt. The other guy had broken tack. Both riders were sore and a little stiff the next day. Parker and Blackie were undamaged. When Parker spoke the public were 15-20 people deep trying to see and listen. The local newspaper done a full page article about Parker and Blackie. I`m not going to tell about the newspaper article as I feel Parker should have the bragging rites to this. Your damn rite he deserves to Brag. There were several states represented in the AMM camp. I will probably miss a state or two, forgive me if I miss your state. There was Ohio, Ind., Mich., New Joisey, Ky. Thats all I remember. For the second year in a row your AMM brothers were asked to tend the bar at the dance. Honestly they were !!! Can you imagine a fox being thrown into the hen house GGGGG. We were all gentle men and conducted ourselves as such. I seen it with me own eyes. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter serving tray and goblets. Their was also many, many fine suttlers in attendance with many period correct items. The food purveyors had many correct delicious foods. Hard to decide what to eat. Was many fine foods prepared in the AMM camp too. Some friends of Parkers also from Joisey prepared a brunswick stew that they shared with us. I HAVE NEVER EATEN A STEW THAT TASTE THAT GOOD. Sorry I don`t remember their name. From overhearing others conversations, I think there was several ranking officers of the AMM in attendance. Won`t try to name them as I only know one or two of them. If their would of been a competion for camps, I know the AMM would of taken all prizes. Though Mississnewa is a jurried event, the AMM camps were jurried much stricter. All camps were neat and orderly and correct as we could of gotten them. Your bro. Ron (don`t know last name) had some beautiful powder horns out for sale and trade. He gave many talks on them to the public. Told how they were made from the cow head and buff head to the finished product on his blanket. Though I am not an AMM member, my friend Mad Mike and yours truly Big John have been guests in many AMM camps. We were accepted as one of your own, and treated great. We have made many AMM friends. It is very easy to see first hand why the AMM is called a brotherhood. Be polite, and treat them as you want to be treated and you have no problems. Come in with the know-it-all attitude, and they will grease your ass and slide you on down the trail. we have learned many things in the camps, given demonstrations on how to do skills. Will teach you till you get it correct. Though I have only mentioned a few names there were many others who added to this event. Time and space and memory have run out. nuff sed, out of words. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:15:39 GMT Seems to me that Osborne Russel was left behind with a handful of other men to build Ft. Hall, I know Russel wasn't Metis, and I'm quite sure the rest were'nt either. Walt, I must wonder if you could be wrong about this?? Remember the thisle/cattail root debate!! Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 11:57:04 -0600 Seems to me that Osborne Russel was left behind with a handful of other men to build Ft. Hall, I know Russel wasn't Metis, and I'm quite sure the rest were'nt either. Walt, I must wonder if you could be wrong about this?? Remember the thisle/cattail root debate!! Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ No Chance. I got a pretty good memory. I figure if I am right 90% of the time on 90% of the stuff. I am doing pretty good. I see you are using a Metis expression in your name tag. Want to bet that neck bag back> Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:30:35 GMT Walt, Just show me the facts!! You seem to be crawfishin' a bit. What do you have that shows the Metis built Ft. Hall?? If you got it, I'll eat crow, and gladly return the neck bag!! I have nothing against the Metis or those interested in them. The Motto included in my signature is that of the Brotherhood of the American Mountain Men, it's origin, Metis or otherwise is unimportant to me. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:04:06 -0400 Right nice things you said, John.. And ye know yer allays welcome... Mike too. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 10 Oct 2000 14:07:16 -0500 At 02:58 PM 10/8/00 -0700, you wrote: >On another topic, was it common for old cross-cut saws to be recycled into >knives, in the fur trade era ? I have a old skinnin knife that appears to >have been home made from a very old saw blade. Pendelton, If a saw was broken beyond repair the steel would be used to make other tools, a similar fate came to worn and/or broken files. Nothing would be thrown away. Look deep into yours. How was the saw made and subsequently how was the knife made? Can you identify the tooth pattern that was on the saw? Is the mode of manufacture consistent with technology common before 1840? How is the grip mounted? Was the kns.opforged, filed or ground? Show us a picture. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 13:58:05 -0600 Walt, Just show me the facts The motto, it's origin, Metis or otherwise is unimportant to me. Cliff Tiffie --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! Cliff, It pays to know your roots in this sport. Walt out of his badgerhole Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! Date: 10 Oct 2000 20:34:42 GMT I'm not familiar with the Metis, being from the southern end of the plains but we had Comancheros & Ciboleros here and I was under the impression they were basically the same profession, just different ethnic groups...is this true? If it is why do so many seem to hold these guys up as "Holymen" of the Northern plains? The discussions have been kinda biased towards these guys..were they really that great or are they just regional heroes? Not that it's really that important to me but where is the documentation for the Metis fort builders that has been dodged so fervently of late? If you're gonna bring it up back it up! On a different subject...what is the consensus out there about the hybrid saddles being used in the furtrade? I was considering getting one made up but am not sure of the durability of such a delicately constructed saddle...any thoughts? AND while I'm on the horse business...I haven't been riding half as long as some of you guys(I haven't been alive half as long as some of you guys!) but learned real quick that unless you wear your hat "rodeo" style ie. pulled down to your ears and the right wind catches it it's coming off unless it's tied down, but that's just my short accumulation of experience...I may be wrong?! Look forward to any comments. Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:36:21 -0500 > I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later. My persona is the 1835 > Longhunter and it fits me. It is also a great shooting rifle. I think it > is modeled after the original Hawken. I can not wait to hear from all the > experts on this one. > > The Great Plains rifle ain't nothing' like a Hawken. More like an Ohio styled gun, in archetecture, well, almost, kinda like an Ohio style, with the light stock, thin wrist, and light weight barrel. Hawkens were very heavily built with thick wrists, and for the most part, heavy barrels. The only production gun that I am aware of that even came close to a real Hawken is the old Santa Fe Hawken made by Uberti several years ago. I have seen and handled a few original Hawkens, so I can say that there, currently, are no production guns that even remotely resemble an original Hawken in archetecture, much less come close to the weight, feel and quality of the original guns Oh, and Frank, the time of the longhunter was long gone by 1800. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:52:16 -0500 Ole Jenson said, <. We did not hunt the buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame> Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was the main cause. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 16:56:24 -0400 >. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern > Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter serving tray > and goblets. > Don't you DARE stop here!! You have GOT to finish this story!! *grins* Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:05:30 GMT Scott, I havn't heard any glowing reports on the Hybrid saddle, the only list member I know that has ridden one is Richard Ashburn. Maybe he can shed some light. I have viewed several, some new, some with several miles on them. They all looked weak to me, and some were already showing extreme wear to the padding. There was a large party that rode into the 99 AMM nationals on hybrids, with some complaints of sore backs. Those saddles were for sale. Several of those men were riding spanish trees again when I saw them this summer. It would appear that they prefer the spanish tree. I'm quite sure that the hybrid saddle we see today is a good representation of what Grimsley manufactured, and that brigades were outfitted with them. The success or failure of the saddle is unfortunately lost. Sure wish you could have made it to Lawton, it was a grand time. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 14:27:41 -0700 > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were > decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue > the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. Frank, That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather compellingly that such was not strictly the case. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. > Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was > the main cause. The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains indian culutre. Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature. Neither premise is completely true. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:50:06 -0600 Frank, I will do this from memory so cut me some slack. Lewis and Clark estimated that there were 60 Milion Bison on the plains, now even if there were 40 Million, that is 1/3 less the birth rate would be around 27 million per year. Even with a death rate of 40% from old age and over hunting this would leave 40.2 million left which is a net gain of around 20 thousand. Taking into account that the smokeless cartridge did not realy come into use until the late 1880's this would mean that all 40 million Buffalo were killed by Black Powder weapons and Bow's and Arrows. Another thing to remember is that the Buffalo trade was heavily regulated and the number of hides harvested were counted and taxed and the record does not come up to anything close to 40 million. The conclusion that I and many others have come up with is this, that Bovine Diseases killed the Buffalo in the same way that Smallpox whiped out the Mandan. this is not to say that there was not a government policy to Desimate the tribes by destroying there food supply, there was that. (See Buckskin Report around 1979) Propoganda for Political action is where the story comes from. We have also been lead to belive that the Horse was not on this Continent until the Spanish braught them here, I am starting to belive that this is also based on bad science. the Vikings were known to travel with small horses like the Barb, What about the Spanish,French,Dutch,English,Portugese, what about the notion Catlin put forth concerning the oregins of the Mandan tribe. things to think about. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Frank Fusco" >To: "AMM" >Subject: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 2:52 PM > >Ole Jenson said, > > <. We did not hunt the >buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame> > > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were >decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue >the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. >Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was >the main cause. >Frank G. Fusco >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:55:27 -0600 Cliff, The "Hybrid Saddle" that Grimsley made was not the Saddle that he made for the Fur Trade. The Hybrid Saddle was specified by the War Dept. for use of the 1st Mounted Dragoons. (See Man Made Mobile) YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Chance Tiffie" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 3:05 PM > >Scott, > >I havn't heard any glowing reports on the Hybrid saddle, the only list >member I know that has ridden one is Richard Ashburn. Maybe he can shed >some light. I have viewed several, some new, some with several miles on >them. They all looked weak to me, and some were already showing extreme >wear to the padding. There was a large party that rode into the 99 AMM >nationals on hybrids, with some complaints of sore backs. Those saddles >were for sale. Several of those men were riding spanish trees again when I >saw them this summer. It would appear that they prefer the spanish tree. >I'm quite sure that the hybrid saddle we see today is a good representation >of what Grimsley manufactured, and that brigades were outfitted with them. >The success or failure of the saddle is unfortunately lost. >Sure wish you could have made it to Lawton, it was a grand time. > > >Cliff Tiffie >PO Box 5089 >Durant, OK >74702 >580-924-4187 >--------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:59:32 -0600 Capt, I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Roger Lahti" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 3:27 PM > > >> Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were >> decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to >subdue >> the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. > >Frank, > >That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather >compellingly that such was not strictly the case. > >> Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near >extinction. >> Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing >was >> the main cause. > >The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the >near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were >involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the >buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo >as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what >commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on >only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not >support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains >indian culutre. > > >Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling >and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the >Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature. >Neither premise is completely true. I remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Field reports and records of so many market hunters and vandalistic shooters (plus Native American legends) say, over and over, that they went out and NEVER found "ANY LIVE" buffalo last seen from the previous year. Now THAT'S rather sudden as if an epidemic came in with the winter winds. Archaelogy may yet find conclusive evidence to support the bovine dis-ease decimation theory. --- Frank Fusco wrote: > Ole Jenson said, > > <. We did not hunt the > buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to > blame> > > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that > the buffalo were > decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter > in an attempt to subdue > the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed > to the near extinction. > Disease may have been a factor but killing just for > the sake of killing was > the main cause. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas ===== defstones I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart. e e cummings ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 22:24:25 GMT "Grimsley was aware of the Spanish saddle as it's popularity had spread to Missouri from the Spanish/Mexican southwest. In the 1820's, he merged the best qualities of the Spanish saddle; the simple rugged construction of the tree, deep square seat and saddle horn, with the established and trusted flat seat of the English saddle. He took English saddle padding and applied it to the Spanish tree for rider comfort and to protect the horse. He attached russet leather skirts, thin leather straps and metal stirrups, also of English origin and created a true hybrid saddle." This quote if from "Dress and Equipage of the mountain men." Grimsley went on to sell an abundance of saddles to the AFC. Wes Housler brought the majority of the information to surface on this saddle, and is producing it through his outfit. No example of this saddle has survived, so the reproduction is purely speculation. I don't like it, but that don't mean it wasn't there. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:55:29 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:59 PM > Capt, > I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money. > YMOS > Ole # 718 Ole, I was just too impatient for your much more detailed report. I figured you or someone else would come up with the figures but couldn't wait to start putting it into perspective. I'm glad you jumped in. There were horses here before Columbus but they were probably eaten or otherwise gone before the Spanish brought their stock and riding skills over. Whether the Vikings brought horses in sustainable numbers is very questionable since Eastern and Northeastern Tribes didn't have a horse culture intact with the colonial movement of northern Europeans. In other words the Indian may have seen horses on this continent a long time ago but didn't realize that they could be domesticated so easily and thus only saw them as a food source. As successful as the Plains Indian was with raising horses, it is hard to believe that they had such capabilities and lost them before Columbus. Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? There is speculation (and we should be honest about this) that many of the land mammals on this continent and that originated on this continent may have fallen victim to the new encroachment of Prehistoric Indians and changing climactic conditions or some similar mix of events. Thus the pre-Columbian Indian may have hunted many animals to extinction or played a big role in that extinction. Just as Kennewick Man gives rise to much speculation as to who the "First People" really were, there are many questions related to the prehistory of this Continent that are only now being addressed much less answered. It's fun to speculate about the Mandans, the Vikings, the horse, etc. but nothing is proof without considerable archeological evidence and most of what has been written is proving to have been too simple an explanation, re. the Bearing Land Bridge Migration Route. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Cliff, The fact that there is not any of these saddles around, may indicate they were not sucessful. If they were good, they would probably would have been repaired or reproduced.The good stays, and the bad is usually weeded out !! Looks like a failure to me. Just my $00.02 George --- Chance Tiffie wrote: > . > (The success or failure of the saddle is > unfortunately lost.) > > > > Cliff Tiffie > PO Box 5089 > Durant, OK > 74702 > 580-924-4187 > --------------------- > Aux Aliments de Pays! > > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:05:42 -0600 I'm not familiar with the Metis, being from the southern end of the plains but we had Comancheros & Ciboleros here and I was under the impression they were basically the same profession, just different ethnic groups...is this true Sincerely, Scott McMahon Hello Scott, I do not think so. Texas is a long ways from the Children of the Fur Trade. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:05:45 -0600 AND while I'm on the horse business...I haven't been riding half as long as some of you guys(I haven't been alive half as long as some of you guys!) but learned real quick that unless you wear your hat "rodeo" style ie. pulled down to your ears and the right wind catches it it's coming off unless it's tied down, but that's just my short accumulation of experience...I may be wrong?! Look forward to any comments. Sincerely, Scott McMahon Scott, Them stiff new hats don't do real well in the mountains unless they are broke in. Down to the ears is good. Learn to lean into the wind. It is a long ways from here to Texas. I do not know much about Texas. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:10:15 -0600 Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? YMOS Capt. Lahti' The Viking horse was not the Spanish Barb. The Vikings used the Shetland pony. The horse was used to carry the armor of the Viking after unloading both the horse and the armor from the long ship(s) VBG Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:40:44 -0500 Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:39:09 -0600 Did anybody else see Todd Glover's letter to the editor in the November = 2000 issue of Popular Mechanics, praising the magazine for running a = Ruger handgun ad? Way to go Todd. YF&B Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:40:01 -0400 Can not comment much on the Uberti vs the LPR, I do know that the old timers that I asked when I was getting started told me that out of all the production guns I could buy, the Lyman Plains Rifle was the closest when it came to looks and the weight. I can tell you that the LPR is a very heavy rifle weighing in at 9lbs. I was also told that I could show up to Friendship with this rifle and shoot it without any problems. Now on the Longhunter era. I believe the beginning of the "boschloper" / "coureur de bois" was sometime in the late 1700's. I also believe that the Longhunter era ranged into the early 1800's. Now I guess it depends on what years you consider early. I do not plan on changing my persona as my half Indian half White man dress suits me fine. At the rendezvous I attend, I seem to fit in with the mountain men and the Indians just fine. Since I am down here in Georgia in the South, I may fit more into the persona of the Canebrake. These were whitemen who took Indian wives and lived like the Indians. Yeh, that's me but since I am not a true Southerner, I will stay with the Longhunter. JD, thanks for the input. I see that I will half to do more research. > > > I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later. My persona is the 1835 > > Longhunter and it fits me. It is also a great shooting rifle. I think it > > is modeled after the original Hawken. I can not wait to hear from all the > > experts on this one. > > > > > The Great Plains rifle ain't nothing' like a Hawken. More like an Ohio > styled > gun, in archetecture, well, almost, kinda like an Ohio style, with the light > stock, > thin wrist, and light weight barrel. Hawkens were very heavily built with > thick > wrists, and for the most part, heavy barrels. > > The only production gun that I am aware of that even came close to a real > Hawken is the old Santa Fe Hawken made by Uberti several years ago. > > I have seen and handled a few original Hawkens, so I can say that there, > currently, are no production guns that even remotely resemble an original > Hawken in archetecture, much less come close to the weight, feel and > quality of the original guns > > Oh, and Frank, the time of the longhunter was long gone by 1800. > J.D. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:20:37 -0500 On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:56:24 -0400 "Addison Miller" writes: > >. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern > > Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter > serving tray > > and goblets. Mr. Hunt, I am NOT interested in this wench or her accoutrement , but I am interested in learning more about Parker Moore and his famous horse Blackie. Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page? Thanks, Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Parker Moore & Blackie Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:26:22 -0500 . "Mr. Hunt, I am NOT interested in this wench or her accoutrement , but I am interested in learning more about Parker Moore and his famous horse Blackie. Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page?" Thanks, Victoria Victoria, You are absolutely correct, anyone who knows Parker and has spent any time with him will tell you that he is truly a very interesting character. Very interesting. Randy Hedden "Harddog" On the Great Sauk Trail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:48:41 -0600 Cliff, I have handled the Hybrid Saddle about 5 years back, and it had Grimsley's stamp on it. In Man Made Mobile there are two letters from Grimsley to the War Dept.. The first letter is a proposal to the war department which describes the spanish saddle he had furnished to the fur company. The second letter describes the saddle which they had requested he build, you will find that the two letters are describing diferent saddles. So as I said the "Hybrid" saddle was not sold to the fur company, that is not to say some of them did not see service during the fur trade. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Chance Tiffie" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:24 PM > > > >"Grimsley was aware of the Spanish saddle as it's popularity had spread to >Missouri from the Spanish/Mexican southwest. In the 1820's, he merged the >best qualities of the Spanish saddle; the simple rugged construction of the >tree, deep square seat and saddle horn, with the established and trusted >flat seat of the English saddle. He took English saddle padding and applied >it to the Spanish tree for rider comfort and to protect the horse. He >attached russet leather skirts, thin leather straps and metal stirrups, also >of English origin and created a true hybrid saddle." This quote if from >"Dress and Equipage of the mountain men." Grimsley went on to sell an >abundance of saddles to the AFC. Wes Housler brought the majority of the >information to surface on this saddle, and is producing it through his >outfit. No example of this saddle has survived, so the reproduction is >purely speculation. I don't like it, but that don't mean it wasn't there. > >Cliff Tiffie >PO Box 5089 >Durant, OK >74702 >580-924-4187 >--------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:57:48 -0600 At 01:58 PM 10/10/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Walt, >Just show me the facts The motto, it's origin, Metis or otherwise is >unimportant to me. > >Cliff Tiffie > --------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! Walt, Aux Aliments de Pays is French. Not Metis. If some of the Metis used French, that doesn't mean they invented it. Or built Fort Hall, or were the pivitol force in the fur trade era. This is absolutely no slam on the Metis people. But you are claiming, so far with no documentation, far more than they did. >It pays to know your roots in this sport. > It sure does...... Allen Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:51:45 -0600 Capt, Exactly right! YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Roger Lahti" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:55 PM > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ole B. Jensen" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:59 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] > > >> Capt, >> I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money. >> YMOS >> Ole # 718 > >Ole, > >I was just too impatient for your much more detailed report. I figured >you or someone else would come up with the figures but couldn't wait to >start putting it into perspective. I'm glad you jumped in. > >There were horses here before Columbus but they were probably eaten or >otherwise gone before the Spanish brought their stock and riding skills >over. Whether the Vikings brought horses in sustainable numbers is very >questionable since Eastern and Northeastern Tribes didn't have a horse >culture intact with the colonial movement of northern Europeans. In other >words the Indian may have seen horses on this continent a long time ago but >didn't realize that they could be domesticated so easily and thus only saw >them as a food source. As successful as the Plains Indian was with raising >horses, it is hard to believe that they had such capabilities and lost them >before Columbus. > >Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had >was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? > > There is speculation (and we should be honest about this) that many of the >land mammals on this continent and that originated on this continent may >have fallen victim to the new encroachment of Prehistoric Indians and >changing climactic conditions or some similar mix of events. Thus the >pre-Columbian Indian may have hunted many animals to extinction or played a >big role in that extinction. > >Just as Kennewick Man gives rise to much speculation as to who the "First >People" really were, there are many questions related to the prehistory of >this Continent that are only now being addressed much less answered. It's >fun to speculate about the Mandans, the Vikings, the horse, etc. but nothing >is proof without considerable archeological evidence and most of what has >been written is proving to have been too simple an explanation, re. the >Bearing Land Bridge Migration Route. I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 18:55:24 -0600 Walt, Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another small horse they used as well. But I can't remember the name of the breed. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Walt Foster" >To: >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 5:10 PM > >Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had >was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? > > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > >The Viking horse was not the Spanish Barb. The Vikings used the Shetland >pony. The horse was used to carry the armor of the Viking after unloading >both the horse and the armor from the long ship(s) VBG > > >Walt >Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 >Clark Bottom Rendezvous >Yellowstone Canoe Camp >On the Lewis & Clark Trail >Park City, Montana > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 11 Oct 2000 01:19:17 GMT Mr. Jensen, I do not have a copy of "Man Made Mobile." I have read it a couple of times though. Does the letter written to the war dept. describe the spanish saddle as having pads or skirts, also what is the dates of the correspondence?? Records show the sell of "spanish" saddles, bare or "complete," interpreted to mean padded, and rigged with skirts. If that is the case then those were hybrid saddles. I had the pleasure of hearing Clay Landry speak on AFC records at the Fur Trade Symposium last month, and one item he addressed was saddles. His research has shown that the term "spanish," had nothing to do with the origin of the saddle, but described the type of tree. If that is the case then couldn't it be possible, that some of Grimsley's "spanish" saddles were hybrids?? Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:37:39 -0400 > Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page? > >>He does not D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 12 Oct 2000 21:36:19 -0400 frank we hammered the buffilo thing to death last year---got blood thursty and all you might look at the archives and see what everyone decided on---just my humbel opinion no flack--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:03:11 -0700 "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Walt, > Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another small horse they used as > well. Hallo the Camp...... There is a small horse called (if my memory serves), the Icelandic horse. Smallish, hairy, and sturdy. Of Nordic origions I believe. I did not know the seafarers of the north took their horses with them. Had to have been hard on them in those boats. The shetland pony I believe is of Britanic origions and was used as a tiny draft horse in the mines. As I am work, I do not have my books handy to verify this all this. Regards Lee of North Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SKINNIN KNIVES Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:38:02 -0700 John, Thanks for the response. I don't have a picture of the knife, and my damn scanner is a real pain to use, so I'll describe the knife as best I can. It has most likely been rehandled, that's just a guess. The slabs are of an unknown wood attached by 4 copper pins, roughly peened over. 2 of the pins have small copper washers on them. The blade is of the same size, shape, and design as a Green River Skinner. There are no markings on it of any kind. It is a little thinner than a new Green River Skinner, and it is not as smooth on the sides. There are slight indentions that run the length of the blade that indicate it may have been cut from a handforged saw blade. Now before anyone jumps in here, it ain't no damn Old Hickory. These marks are not stamped into it. They may or may not be hammer marks. What do you think ? I'll get a picture made of it one of these days. Pendleton -----Original Message----- At 02:58 PM 10/8/00 -0700, you wrote: >On another topic, was it common for old cross-cut saws to be recycled into >knives, in the fur trade era ? I have a old skinnin knife that appears to >have been home made from a very old saw blade. Pendelton, If a saw was broken beyond repair the steel would be used to make other tools, a similar fate came to worn and/or broken files. Nothing would be thrown away. Look deep into yours. How was the saw made and subsequently how was the knife made? Can you identify the tooth pattern that was on the saw? Is the mode of manufacture consistent with technology common before 1840? How is the grip mounted? Was the kns.opforged, filed or ground? Show us a picture. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:12:20 -0700 Roger and All, We kicked this subject at length about a year ago. I was of the opinon it was Brucellosis that played a major role in the decline of the Buffalo, but others had documentaion otherwise. I still believe disease had to have had a part in it. As you have stated the numbers in the hide counts just don't add up. Plus the fact that it is debateable that it was not possible to haul that much powder and lead to the Plains. Pendleton -----Original Message----- > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were > decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue > the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. Frank, That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather compellingly that such was not strictly the case. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. > Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was > the main cause. The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains indian culutre. Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature. Neither premise is completely true. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Breeders claim lineage going back 1000 years for the Icelandic, 13-14 hands tall but weighing 800 pounds and carrying a 300 pound 6 foot Icelander with no problem. Now THAT'S a horse! http://www.icefarm.com/news.htm http://www.ice-horse.com/west.html --- Lee Newbill wrote: > "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > > > Walt, > > Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another > small horse they used as > > well. > > Hallo the Camp...... > > There is a small horse called (if my memory serves), > the Icelandic horse. > Smallish, hairy, and sturdy. Of Nordic origions I > believe. I did not know the > seafarers of the north took their horses with them. > Had to have been hard on > them in those boats. > > The shetland pony I believe is of Britanic origions > and was used as a tiny draft > horse in the mines. > > As I am work, I do not have my books handy to verify > this all this. > > Regards > > Lee of North Idaho ===== defstones I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart. e e cummings ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Laguna Mountain Rendezvous Date: 10 Oct 2000 22:42:33 EDT Hello the camp... A grand event coming up 10/18 through 10/22, in the northern San Diego county area of Southern California, near Julian. It's primitive, but not a 'juried' event; we run this one to help 'greenies' get started. Anybody from either list that's going to be attending? Have an interest in having a list members get-together? Let me know, here or offline, and we can post a meetin' notice on the bulletin board at the entrance to camp... Ralph (Barney Fife aka Shoots Himself aka Hole-In-Arm) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! Date: 10 Oct 2000 19:49:15 -0700 Hallo Scott scott mcmahon wrote: > I'm not familiar with the Metis, being from the southern end of the plains > but we had Comancheros & Ciboleros here and I was under the impression they > were basically the same profession, just different ethnic groups...is this > true? I don't recollect anyone answering your question, so I'll toss my hat into the ring for a moment in time... From my readings, Metis (mixed-bloods) is a term mostly connected with the Canadian/French/British fur trade of the north. A lot of them were employed by the fur companies up this a way. No real bad rep as a whole that I'm aware of like the Comancheros had. > Not that > it's really that important to me but where is the documentation for the > Metis fort builders that has been dodged so fervently of late? Of the Nor'Westers, a Metis by the name of Jaco Finlay (Jacques Finlay) was an important figure in the construction of several posts, including Spokane House (1811). He accompanied and worked with David Thompson while he was in the Pacific Northwest. And the horse stuff..... lemme see, I'm too poor to even contemplate a new saddle... so cain't help you there, the mare is lame 'cause she tried to kick the snot outa the gelding through the fence after he bit her in the arse, and while the hat don't come off at a gallop, the brim has a tendacy to flip down over the eyes... but that's Ok, who the heck wants to see where a hell bent for leather, greenbroke mare that is terrified of mud puddles is going anyways..... Regards from cold and wet Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo Extinction Date: 10 Oct 2000 20:12:40 -0700 I too agree we covered this a year ago. I won't argue with the theory that disease finished off the remnants of the buffalo herd rather suddenly. HOWEVER, the proposition that the required ammunition "couldn't have been carried west" doesn't hold up. Suppose we allow for 5,000,000 rounds a year, over a 20 year period, resulting in 100 million rounds, allowing for some natural increase and misses while killing 50 million-plus buffalo. Assume 20 balls per pound. This requires 250,000 lbs of lead per year. Seems like a lot? BUT - if we assume that 250 trains per year travelled to suitable regions of the west with shipments of ammunition, it's only 1000 lbs of lead per train (plus the matching powder) -- a modest corner of the baggage car. If early boxcars carried 10 tons each, the entire shipment would occupy 15-20 cars. It COULDA happened, even if these numbers are pretty far off. Trains carry a lot of weight. The powder and ball would only be a tiny fraction of the shipping weight to return hides, tongues, etc. I, too, would like to see those tallies -- but one has to allow for an unknown amount of wastage if the reports of wanton killing are to be believed. To kill 5,000,000 buffalo per year might require 1000 hunters at 5000 buffalo each, assuming the hunter killed 100 per day for 50 days a year. From what I gather, you could shoot this many in a single "stand", limited more by reloading rate I suppose. You'd have to skin them pretty fast to bring back 100 hides per hunter -- anybody have stats on the composition of such crews? At 20 lbs per hide, we would gather a ton of hides a day per hunter, loading up a wagon train within a few days. The expedition would return to the railroad to ship and resupply every week or so, probably bringing enough hides to fill a boxcar or two. Each hunter would require 400-500 pounds of ammo per year, and return 100,000 lbs of robes (25 10-ton boxcars), assuming no wastage. There would be 4 such persons travelling on each of my 250 trains -- it's a lot of activity but spread out across the west, it's not absurd on the face of it. Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:22:32 MDT now were to start,i will keep it short as i can if you want to know more please email. to start you reading off or proof of metis here is a start i have more if you run short on belief, in cluding my news letter on metis. THE NEW PEOPLESbeing and becoming metis in north america by jacqueline peterson and jennifer s. h. brown./strange empireby joseph kinsey howard/the red river trails oxcart routes between st paul and the selkirk settlements 1820/1870. now for some reserce info out of our room on the fur trade and metis. if do not belief my infor i can sure coff it up or puke it all over you.there is NO and i mean NO CONNECTION between metis and comencaro of the south. the cajun yes NOT THE COMENCARO. the furturest south that i can proof to now is utah per mr. hanson,s books.sent by the hudson bay com. to check fur trade market. the turm french canadan was usuly nice way of saying breed at that time.so if you read that term at that era good chance that person was a metis.to be reconized as a nation people recognized by heir food,clothing,flag,history and politcal movement. i can cover all this just ask and you shall recieve.(by records-usa-canada) as far as being in on alot of fort building. ft union has their own flyer put out to people that explains metis names at fort union building and working in after,allso covers ft walla fur fort.(my boy was on one of walla digs of to day).the metis was employed in the fur trade before there was a fur trade in the west.were sent out west by the big fur companys to build. at that stage of the fur trade if the name sounded french good chance,metis. so if at the NORTHERN FORTS there was a french name on the roster good change we were there.in fact beiing compared to a southern comencaro really gets digging hiverant file,s. if you want books to read iam finding more and more, hope you have alot of time.we were indian traders also traded in villages of that history era. for instenc 1820,s the metis cart brigades were the most powerful force on the northern plains.Fact put into most history books. sence the metis were children from the furmen and indian women they were first imployed into the fur trade, covering all asspects of the industry . sorry if we were the first and still in the fur trade (north canada). the whole socity of metis came from the northern fur indusry with indian and euro mix to form the new nation. come to think of it there has even been shows made covering this same thing. this is about has bad as the person say he didn,t think a cart was used in the north part of fur trade( ha have got proof on that one) please leave the metis out of the south west.please read history of the north first. we had a differant fur trade and the last. when you come to the north country remimber we were different world with different history . in the fur trade the new comer to the north died if he could not change . i sorry iam calmer now. if you need records or proof of metis in the fur trade please get a hold of me. of cart patterns, or bead patterns of metis please see me.michif language,metis recipes any thing! if i don,t know i can find someone that does. angela hope your files are better shape then mine i just torn the h--- out of the hiverant metis files. how are you as a back up in pissinmatch? Walt you r going to have to hobble me i snorting and blowing. metis are a big part of fur trade why havent they read this its in black and white all over. hiverants metis preserve and research of metis history bring metis and friends of metis into traditions of the hiverant metis _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: MtMan-List: Destruction of the Bison Date: 11 Oct 2000 03:26:21 GMT Ho the list, An excellent new book on this topic is titled The Destruction of the Bison by Andrew C. Isenberg. I have read the book and my review of it will be in the next Confluence News (in November, I think). Isenberg offers much good information and he concludes that the buffalo almost went extinct because of a combination of human (not just white) hunting, disease, climate changes, and over-competition for grazing from horses and cattle. If you can find it, get it and read it. One of his main points is that the buffalo was on the decline anyway when white hunters entered the picture, thus all they did was simply quicken something that would have happened anyway in a couple more decades. He also offers an interesting look at how sportsmen helped save the buffalo. Just by two cents worth, Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 03:31:12 GMT All three are excellent books. We sell the first two at Fort Union. Another good one is Children of the Fur Trade: The Forgotten Metis of the Pacific Northwest. Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com THE NEW PEOPLESbeing and becoming metis in north america by jacqueline peterson and jennifer s. h. brown./strange empireby joseph kinsey howard/the red river trails oxcart routes between st paul and the selkirk settlements 1820/1870 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT............NRA..........tonight on ABC Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:45:46 EDT How did the NRA do hope it did not make us look like gun nuts like tv always makes us out to be.did we hold ground? traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: MtMan-List: Metis and Comanceros/Ciboleros Date: 11 Oct 2000 03:50:38 GMT Well I guess I riled up the old Metis Luff! I apologize for any inference that the Metis were connected to the southwest...what I was getting at was that(from my limited knowledge) the Metis were into trading and buffalo hunting which is what the Comanchero and Cibolero did. And to the remark made in respects to the reputation of the Comanchero...this came along after the furtrade era, during our times they were simply traders from Mexican villages who traded blankets and foodstuffs for robes and livestock. I know there is alot of difference in the Northern and Southern plains BUT I don't think one was tougher than the other... you still had dangerous tribes to deal with as well as severe weather and alot of wild animals that were as dangerous as the weather and Indians! I think the letters from Man Made Mobile as well as the fact that there are few surviving samples sways me away from the Hybrid... Cliff you were right, the term Spanish does not refer to place of origin but the style of tree ie. rawhided wood which was alot stronger/different than the English and European styles of construction. The US Dragoons gave a poor report on the Grimsley hybrid produced for their use sayiing that the under panels came un-stuffed and wore sores on the horses backs(leading me to believe they didn't use blankets?). I'm interested in hearing what the other horsemen are using out there...anyone have anything to share on this? One last note... I found that caps, while not illustrated in Miller's works are very servicable for the horseman and are a period alternative to the felt hat. Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: metis lang-michif Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:58:47 MDT a composite of indian tongue, usually cree and chippewa, and french english and gaelic. the french used was old french an is obsolete. the metis usuly can not make out ne french but can understand some. the same with the cree and chippewa language. the word metis means mix is most language form. the metis started usuing the word when alot of the familys were marrying into indian and white familys. so some of the people were a mix instead of a half breed. i meet all kinds of metis some indian looking alot white looking. i am a scot indian metis one of the old names they would call a scot mix was a black scot. the name for metis by the northern plains people were flower bead people. the hand sign for metis was two cicle,s by fingers the draw a line down center. stand for two worlds or men with wagons. some time michif is used by the turtle mt. chippewa to id them selfs as turtle mt. metis. i sill tearing files up on ft. hall give me a few days and i will tell you. remiber also alot of metis would not tell people of their indian or metis back ground angle do you have any thing on ft hall? preserve and reseach metis history bring metis and friends into traditions of the hiverant metis ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 01:19:03 EDT OK, so what makes a person a metis? If a St. Louis Frenchman married a Southern Cheyenne woman, were their kids metis? (Such as William Guerrier did, resulting in Ed Guerrier-- a "half-breed Cheyenne" in the parlance of the 19th Century southern plains) Or is there something about the proximity to Canada that makes a mixed French/Indian person a metis? (So if Guerrier had married a Northern Cheyenne and spent all of his time north of the S. Platte, THEN his kids would have been metis.) What do we say that metis means (because I've never heard of the Guerriers described as Metis)? john r sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Journals and Metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:25:02 -0600 Gentlemen, Going through several journals from the period I find by going through the indexes: Journal of a Mountain Man by James Clyman: No mention of Metis 40 Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri. Charles Larpenteur: No mention of Metis Adventures of a Mountain Man by Zenas Leonard: No mention of Metis Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell: No mention of Metis Life in the Rocky Mountains by Warren Angus Ferris: No mention of Metis Edward Warren by William Drummond Stewart: No mention of Metis Broken Hand by Leroy Hafen: No mention of Metis Jim Bridger by J. Cecil Alter: No mention of Metis Jedediah Smith, by Dale Morgan: No mention of Metis I really like history, and I like facts about history even better. This is from the guys that were there. I'm sure that everyone knows that Osborne Russell in fact, WAS there at the building of Fort Hall. Osborne didn't mention Metis. Well, this has been fun, and made me did into the documentation again. Allen in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:25:01 -0600 Mr. Luff, Just to clarify, are you saying that Metis are half breeds/mixed breeds? And are you including all mixed/half breeds as Metis? Just trying to understand what we're defining here. Thanks, Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:37:57 -0600 Walt, Aux Aliments de Pays is French. Not Metis. If some of the Metis used French, that doesn't mean they invented it. Or built Fort Hall, or were the pivitol force in the fur trade era. This is absolutely no slam on the Metis people. But you are claiming, so far with no documentation, far more than they did. >It pays to know your roots in this sport. > It sure does......Allen Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country Alright Allen, I will start in one step at a time. First of all the French fur trade connection was broken for all time in 1763. It took until 1770 to jump start it. Several Metis were with Lewis and Clark 1804, 1805 and 1806. While camped out for the winter in North Dakota. Lewis and Clark could have spent the winter in a large well supplied Metis town a mere 160 miles to the north, Pebina...opps my spelling. In 1805, La Roche: A Metis was here on the upper Yellowstone before Captain Clark arrived in July 1806. One source of documentation is THE AMERICAN WEST. THE MAGAZINE OF WESTERN HISTORY. Published by the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, Cody, Wyoming. Sponsored by the Western History Association. July/August 1978 Volume XV, Number 4. Page 4. The Mountain Men by William H Goetzmann. The Brief and Glorious Era of the Frontier Trapper. His credit line reads: William H. Goetzmann is director of the American Studies Program at the University of Texas in Austin. He was awarded the 1967 Pulitzer Prize in history for Exploration and Empire: The Explorer and the Scientist in the Winning of the American West. On page 14 he writes about "Wyeth , angry and disappointed, moved west, constructed Fort Hall on the Salmon Fork of the Columbia," He goes on to say "by 1834, however, the Rocky Mountain Fur Company was dead, its partnership dissolved, never to be revived again." And in between stated "....Fort Hall became an important outfitting post on the trail to Oregon." On page 15 is an illustration by Alfred Miller titled Rocky Mountain Trapper. Pictured is a Metis. I have noticed when you get real serious you flash your 1729. Think about it. Pretend you are a student instead of a professor perhaps that will permit you to see the vast, deep and wide influence of the Metis. They were there and they are still here. Ponyrider, have you burned up your saddle blankets yet? VBG. As you can read Fort Hall was not a significant part of the fur trade. It did not appear until the very end. Employers did not do the work. The Metis did. And the Metis built Fort McKenzie as well. I think if you will conduct a little reference work yourself you will see what mean. Walt out of his badgerhole Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo Extinction Date: 11 Oct 2000 01:48:17 EDT About the disappearance of the buffalo. I have read some primary sources from plainsmen and buffalo hunters and traders (both white and otherwise) but I don't recall any mention of huge die-offs. Without exception they stated that overhunting was the reason for the disappearance of the buff. Surely a great buffalo epidemic during the 1860s-80s wouldn't have escaped mention in the primary documents. Is there any mention of it in any sources you all have seen? Is there conclusive archaeological evidence? If not, then I'll write it off (for now) as the theory of one more academic trying to make a mark. jrs ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:49:49 -0600 OK, so what makes a person a metis? If a St. Louis Frenchman married a Southern Cheyenne woman, were their kids metis? (Such as William Guerrier did, resulting in Ed Guerrier-- a "half-breed Cheyenne" in the parlance of the 19th Century southern plains) Or is there something about the proximity to Canada that makes a mixed French/Indian person a metis? (So if Guerrier had married a Northern Cheyenne and spent all of his time north of the S. Platte, THEN his kids would have been metis.) What do we say that metis means (because I've never heard of the Guerriers described as Metis)? john r sweet Hi John, by 1804 the population of St. Louis was 5,000. Half American and half French. If William was in the fur trade. A descendent of the pre 1763 St. Louis fur trade then the off spring of one of those would seem to be the mixed blood of Metis. The second example more so because the Metis appears to be a cultural thing that spread growing from the beginning of the fur trade as it spread west growing into the core left. They may be Metis and not know it. Cheers, Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Journals and Metis Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:57:51 -0600 Gentlemen, Going through several journals from the period I find by going through the indexes: I really like history, and I like facts about history even better. This is from the guys that were there. I'm sure that everyone knows that Osborne Russell in fact, WAS there at the building of Fort Hall. Osborne didn't mention Metis. Well, this has been fun, and made me did into the documentation again. Allen in Fort Hall country Allen, Same old books. Same index referencing. That is pretty lazy history. Using the same documentation as posted. On page 14 "In August of 1830, Smith, Jackson and Sublette sold out to five friends. Tom Fitzpatrick, Milton Sublette, Henry Fraeb, Jean Baptiste Gervais, and Jim Bridger." Here 2 Metis reached ownership, Allen. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Allen Hall Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:25 PM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Journals and Metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 00:20:28 -0600 At 11:57 PM 10/10/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >Same old books. Same index referencing. That is pretty lazy history. > Heck Walt, there haven't been any new books put out by primary sources for awhile.... > >Using the same documentation as posted. On page 14 "In August of 1830, >Smith, Jackson and Sublette sold out to five friends. Tom Fitzpatrick, >Milton Sublette, Henry Fraeb, Jean Baptiste Gervais, and Jim Bridger." Here >2 Metis reached ownership, Allen. Which book was that in? And which are the Metis of the five? Come on now, no lazy history. LOL Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 11 Oct 2000 00:20:27 -0600 At 11:37 PM 10/10/2000 -0600, you wrote: Walt, >He was awarded the 1967 Pulitzer Prize in history for >Exploration and Empire: The Explorer and the Scientist in the Winning of >the American West. On page 14 he writes about "Wyeth , angry and >disappointed, moved west, constructed Fort Hall on the Salmon Fork of the >Columbia," How interesting. When did Fort Hall move to the mouth of the Portneuf and the Snake River? You and your expert should look at a map every now and then. Good try, got anything else? >Think about it. Pretend you are a >student instead of a professor perhaps that will permit you to see the vast, >deep and wide influence of the Metis. I'm very much a stutend, and try to be serious. I read journals and lots of stuff. I'm trying real hard to see it Walt, but so far it's pretty hard to see. Russell, Larpenteur, Leonard, Stewart, and Ferris apparently didn't see it either. Help us out here. >I think if you will conduct a >little reference work yourself you will see what mean. I'll keep on digging. Why don't you do the same. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 05 Jan 2000 21:17:40 -0700 You have to remember the high numbers of buffalo that were killed in fires, drownings and blizzards. drowning each year account for amazingly high numbers joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Date: 11 Oct 2000 08:39:41 -0600 Lee, The Vikings had other boats besides the long boat, I have also heard that they have just discovered a 175'0" Long boat in Iceland. This would make it possible to haul all sorts of goods. There have also been digs in eastern Canada where they have found Viking artifacts, the speculation was that the seatelment was abandoned due too warfare, if they had taken horses they would have probably abandoned them. I don't know but it is possible. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: Lee Newbill >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 8:03 PM > >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > >> Walt, >> Yes they used the Shetland, but there was another small horse they used as >> well. > >Hallo the Camp...... > >There is a small horse called (if my memory serves), the Icelandic horse. >Smallish, hairy, and sturdy. Of Nordic origions I believe. I did not know the >seafarers of the north took their horses with them. Had to have been hard on >them in those boats. > >The shetland pony I believe is of Britanic origions and was used as a tiny draft >horse in the mines. > >As I am work, I do not have my books handy to verify this all this. > >Regards > >Lee of North Idaho > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Date: 11 Oct 2000 08:58:11 -0600 Cliff, The first letter is Dated April 24, 1833, he states"No difference is percivable to those who are not practical mechanics of the saddling buisiness between the shape of the saddle above mentioned and the real spannish saddle" He then goes on to state that the saddle he make's is longer and wider to accomodate the larger American horses and that he has added a pad on the seat for the riders comfort which is covered by the "Mochila" The second letter is dated June 27, 1833 this saddle is the Hybrid it has a rawhide tree but looks a lot like an english military saddle on steroids, you have to read these two letters together to desern the diference. Cliff, They were both Hybrids, as I am writing a paper on this subject I have probably said too much. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Chance Tiffie" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 7:19 PM > > > >Mr. Jensen, >I do not have a copy of "Man Made Mobile." I have read it a couple of times >though. Does the letter written to the war dept. describe the spanish saddle >as having pads or skirts, also what is the dates of the correspondence?? >Records show the sell of "spanish" saddles, bare or "complete," interpreted >to mean padded, and rigged with skirts. If that is the case then those were >hybrid saddles. I had the pleasure of hearing Clay Landry speak on AFC >records at the Fur Trade Symposium last month, and one item he addressed was >saddles. His research has shown that the term "spanish," had nothing to do >with the origin of the saddle, but described the type of tree. If that is >the case then couldn't it be possible, that some of Grimsley's "spanish" >saddles were hybrids?? > >Cliff Tiffie >PO Box 5089 >Durant, OK >74702 >580-924-4187 >--------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 11 Oct 2000 09:14:49 -0600 How interesting. When did Fort Hall move to the mouth of the Portneuf and the Snake River? Allen About the same time Charlie Russell was run out of Idaho, as you said. You shouldn't ought to done it VBG The Alfred Jacob Miller A ROCKY MOUNTAIN TRAPPER. Pictures a Metis. If you can read a trail. You can read a picture. Them is Metis mocs I see. A hat that will stay on the head. And the Metis style of coat. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: karl@intercompco.com Subject: MtMan-List: FindArticles - The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) Date: 11 Oct 2000 09:34:36 -0700 (PDT) abe [karl@intercompco.com] thought you'd find this article useful. The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) http://www.findarticles.com/m1511/9_20/55553393/p1/article.jhtml Interesting book on Indians and animal populations. _________________________________________________________________________ FindArticles - "The Web's First Articles Archive" http://www.findarticles.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: buckskinning sub society Date: 11 Oct 2000 12:05:06 -0600 walt , concho and camp. i was at a rondie and ran into a couple greeners. they were a goup of profs from some collage( leaving out names for a reason) studing as many mt man type fuctions they xcound. said there were different unv. woundering if buckskinner cound be sub society. also the fact that with a armed camped there seemed to be no confrountation serious jury type. just woundering if ether of you ran into that. damit walt old my ass , you and i will still be shanking our spirs in the ears of broncs and shooting our 1803 ,s yelling get out of my way, here i come. when the time comes. look in the shadow,s behind you i,m there ponyrider Ponyrider, Steve Bearhand called me this morning. Gave me a report on the doings at Fort Union. Steve told me that he could have received college credit for the courses given there. Only one non professor was represented. A woman who gave a class on herbs. The talk I was interested in was about the Assiniboines relationship with Fort Union. The talk was by a college professor he thought. And he did not see Carl Four Stars or Mason Runs Through at the event. I hoped they could be there. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: FindArticles - The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) Date: 11 Oct 2000 12:10:02 -0600 Interesting book on Indians and animal populations. Hi Karl, I don't think the buffalo jump numbers were around 200. Very large numbers most likely could not be factored in here in Montana. One of the best jump sites is the Ulm Pishkin. Most just sites were not used after the time of the horse. Something further to consider. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 11 Oct 2000 12:58:42 -0700 Yo Joe Check the date on your computer.... it's coming up with dates from 1904.... which puts your messages up at the top of most folks mail browsers... where they won't get read. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Of Boats & Horses & Norsemen Date: 11 Oct 2000 13:21:39 -0700 Ole While researching the history of the Bateau, I did some fair amount of reading on the Viking longships. I know they had different sizes of boats, but I never saw any of their boats I'd opt to cross the Atlantic in. Tough bunch of boys. On the Viking settlements, I think most historians have accepted they were here and there on the northeast coast long before Mr. C. Columbus sweet talked the Spanish Queen into a couple of boats. The dominant theory that I get from readings is that the Norsemen's superstitious nature, combined with their bad temper and their penchant for attempting to kill any stranger they ran across, earned them the enmity of the locals, which in turn got them ousted/punctured/Vahalla bound. I would imagine that any horses they brought over were eventually served up for dinner. Regards from Idaho... where it is now HUNTING SEASON! See y'all in the woods. Gotta run Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 10 Oct 2000 21:07:44 -0500 > Can not comment much on the Uberti vs the LPR, I do know that the old timers > that I asked when I was getting started told me that out of all the > production guns I could buy, the Lyman Plains Rifle was the closest when it > came to looks and the weight. I can tell you that the LPR is a very heavy > rifle weighing in at 9lbs. I was also told that I could show up to > Friendship with this rifle and shoot it without any problems. Unfortunately, this is all true. Only because these isn't anything remotly resembling an authentic Hawken rifle on the market. I have one of those old Uberi's, and I once owned a GPR. Not even close. The old Uberti Santa Fe Hawken was about 90% authentic, the GPR ain't even close, but is is a good rifle, and it is close enough to qualify for competition in what might pass for "juried" rendezvous. If you think the GPR is heavy, try a good, authentic, cutom made Hawken replica. Heh, heh, heh, that GPR is noticably lighter. > > Now on the Longhunter era. I believe the beginning of the "boschloper" / > "coureur de bois" was sometime in the late 1700's. I also believe that the > Longhunter era ranged into the early 1800's. Now I guess it depends on what > years you consider early. The time frame for the boschloper began in the 1600's when the Dutch, in what is now New York State, began to trade with the Indians. The word boschloper is, if I remember correctly, Dutch. The French coureur de bois also began to trade and live with the Northern Tribes in the early 1600's. The Christianized Huron Nation was nearly wiped out by the Abenaki in 1685, I believe. The French missionaries had been active among the Tribes long before that, and the coureur de bois guided the missionaries to their destinations. Check out the movie "Black Robe" for a little background on this period. Now don't get me wrong, the movie will give you a little background, but it ain't history. Just good Hollywood, for once. The period of the long hunter spanned the period from the mid 1760's to the Rev War. A real short time frame. The Contractors just couldn't generate much interest in organizing any long hunts after the Rev. War. Allot of the game had already been killed in Kentucky and Tennesee, so the hunters would have to work extra hard just to find marketable hides. > > I do not plan on changing my persona as my half Indian half White man dress > suits me fine. At the rendezvous I attend, I seem to fit in with the > mountain men and the Indians just fine. Since I am down here in Georgia in > the South, I may fit more into the persona of the Canebrake. These were > whitemen who took Indian wives and lived like the Indians. Yeh, that's me > but since I am not a true Southerner, I will stay with the Longhunter. > Well, that's OK with me. Just a thought though, few rendezvous have very much to do with honest portrayals of history. Please do some research, look at the ALRA boys, some of the AMM, and the members of a few other groups who DO actually research the late colonial period. And when someone tells you something is wrong, or right, ask for their documentation. There are allot of "period legends" floating around as fact. Nothing but pure imagination that somehow gets told as fact. Believe nothing that anyone tells you without documentation to back up those claims. > JD, thanks for the input. I see that I will half to do more research. Always willing to lend a helping hand. That's what this list is all about. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis and Allen in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 11 Oct 2000 17:47:45 -0700 Hi walt, what do you mean when you say metis. are you refering to any person of french and indian ansestry? or are you refering to a person of the group known as the metis, of red river area? as I understand it, Metis/Metizo is the french word meaning, mixed blood. or in other words are you considering every french canadian with an indian mother and europian father, as metis. sincerely; Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:14 AM > How interesting. When did Fort Hall move to the mouth of the Portneuf and > the Snake River? > Allen > > About the same time Charlie Russell was run out of Idaho, as you said. You > shouldn't ought to done it VBG > > The Alfred Jacob Miller A ROCKY MOUNTAIN TRAPPER. Pictures a Metis. If you > can read a trail. You can read a picture. Them is Metis mocs I see. A hat > that will stay on the head. And the Metis style of coat. > > Walt > Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 > Clark Bottom Rendezvous > Yellowstone Canoe Camp > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Trade Rifle ? Date: 11 Oct 2000 18:28:59 -0600 jdearing wrote: > Unfortunately, this is all true. Only because these isn't anything remotly > resembling an authentic Hawken rifle on the market. I have one of those old > Uberi's, and I once owned a GPR. Not even close. The old Uberti Santa Fe > Hawken was about 90% authentic, the GPR ain't even close, but is is a good > rifle, and it is close enough to qualify for competition in what might pass > for "juried" rendezvous. > > If you think the GPR is heavy, try a good, authentic, cutom made Hawken > replica. Heh, heh, heh, that GPR is noticably lighter.................... > Always willing to lend a helping hand. That's what this list is all about. > J.D. > > ---------------------- J.D., If you watch the classified ads in Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts and a few others you can once in a while find an old Uberti Santa Fe Hawken and I have picked up several Green River Rifleworks - 1/2 and full stock Hawken rifles, even a GRR Leman at fair prices. Saw a full stock GRR flinter Hawken in good condition at the last gun show in Denver for $900, got him down to $825 which is about average here. So if you guys keep your eyes open, there's still some of the good copies floating around. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 11 Oct 2000 21:03:19 -0400 JD, Seems that you know your stuff. > The period of the long hunter spanned the period from the mid 1760's to > the Rev War. A real short time frame. The Contractors just couldn't generate > much interest in organizing any long hunts after the Rev. War. Allot of the > game > had already been killed in Kentucky and Tennesee, so the hunters would have > to work extra hard just to find marketable hides. Do you have any books that you would recommend? My information that I have gotten off the net leads me to believe that the Longhunter period started in the late 1790 after the indian wars and continued into the early 1800's. It seemed to be a very short period. > > I do not plan on changing my persona as my half Indian half White man > dress > > suits me fine. At the rendezvous I attend, I seem to fit in with the > > mountain men and the Indians just fine. Since I am down here in Georgia > in > > the South, I may fit more into the persona of the Canebrake. These were > > whitemen who took Indian wives and lived like the Indians. Yeh, that's me > > but since I am not a true Southerner, I will stay with the Longhunter. > > > Well, that's OK with me. Just a thought though, few rendezvous have very > much > to do with honest portrayals of history. Please do some research, look at > the ALRA > boys, some of the AMM, and the members of a few other groups who DO > actually research the late colonial period. > > And when someone tells you something is wrong, or right, ask for their > documentation. There are allot of "period legends" floating around as fact. > Nothing but pure imagination that somehow gets told as fact. Believe nothing > that anyone tells you without documentation to back up those claims. When I attend the rendezvous I am usually wearing my deerskin leggins, breach cloth, mocs along with a home made muslin shirt. My outer coat is made of duck and it follows the traditional look, very plain. I try to be as authentic as possible and have had many positive comments from both the old indians and ol timers on the articles and garments that I have made.. This does make me feel good but there is always room for inprovement. I believe that my gear to be affective for me has to have medicine. By this I mean that it must mean something to me. You will not see me carry any manuf. equipment, excluding the gun and that will change one day. The hawk I carry was made by a Cherokee friend, the bowie by an old buckskinner, the leggins leather I got out of a trade for a badgerskin possibles bag that I made, I later made the leggins. I take it more seriously than most but not as serious as some. My biggest problem now is making a pack that will fit my needs, which are not much. I have scraped the lean to for a 7x7 foot duck tarp that will be an everything shelter. Compact, light and very versatile. I do want for another rifle, it is the Tenn. style poor boy. Plain and simple no fancy stuff, 45 cal. flint but the LPR will have to do as I want to make the poor boy myself. Alot of the sites I visit on the web seem to cater to the mountain man fur trade and his needs. If you have a site/s that may cater to the southern gent who ventured up and down the east coast and sometimes ventured out west to the mountains. I would be interested. Thanks, Frank V. Rago > > > JD, thanks for the input. I see that I will half to do more research. > > Always willing to lend a helping hand. That's what this list is all about. > J.D. > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis in Ft. Hall Country. Date: 11 Oct 2000 20:51:24 -0600 Hi walt, what do you mean when you say metis. are you refering to any person of french and indian ansestry? or are you refering to a person of the group known as the metis, of red river area? as I understand it, Metis/Metizo is the french word meaning, mixed blood. or in other words are you considering every french canadian with an indian mother and europian father, as metis. sincerely; Tom Hi Tom, I think it goes beyond that to include other nationalities in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. The Scots and others in management positions also left their offspring. I am not forgetting the daughters of the fur trade either. I think the Red Cart Metis are one of the highly recognizable attributes of this culture. But this Metis culture had a long time to build it's unique position in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade and for the most part are unrecognized as being a strong part the work force in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho as well. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: metis,mixbld,ft hall Date: 11 Oct 2000 21:10:16 MDT gents. poeple that were there, the men you named and my names might not be same. but let me try the red river metis ,carts brgads, keeped a low profile in white companys.done a great trade bus and indian furs. a few men of carts done contact at fort union and other trading centers not the whole cart camp. but you what ref. differant (pages) used by strange empire. Blackfeet and buffalo james w. schulz pages 41,43 44,50,60 trip through paradise chapter on breeds and crees in red river carts,plenty coups(crow indian chief) red river metis ,cart, hidden in cotton woods ect about three page on this. the red river settlement its rise, progress and present state, the book hold some hudson and norwest statments made to metis and a number of priest names that traveled with the metis,not that they liked it. the time of the buffalo another book of statments of metis hunters and money. in the field of the fur trade were the artisPeter rindisbacher made several pictures of metis,frank mayer his drawing of red river metis,paul kane portai cree hafbreed in metis dress. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: metis,mixbld,ft hall Date: 11 Oct 2000 21:10:15 MDT gents. poeple that were there, the men you named and my names might not be same. but let me try the red river metis ,carts brgads, keeped a low profile in white companys.done a great trade bus and indian furs. a few men of carts done contact at fort union and other trading centers not the whole cart camp. but you what ref. differant (pages) used by strange empire. Blackfeet and buffalo james w. schulz pages 41,43 44,50,60 trip through paradise chapter on breeds and crees in red river carts,plenty coups(crow indian chief) red river metis ,cart, hidden in cotton woods ect about three page on this. the red river settlement its rise, progress and present state, the book hold some hudson and norwest statments made to metis and a number of priest names that traveled with the metis,not that they liked it. the time of the buffalo another book of statments of metis hunters and money. in the field of the fur trade were the artisPeter rindisbacher made several pictures of metis,frank mayer his drawing of red river metis,paul kane portai cree hafbreed in metis dress. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: halfbreed vis metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 21:46:19 MDT this is a sticky one, i have to make sure i don,t step on the millions of metis of canada and montana,n.d. threw the juronals of the big companys, they say i sent some metis and other mix bloods down to ect----. the metis is and was the new nation and not all mix bloods of the country new of the metis nat. i have covered, alittle on the mix of indian tribes and and white nations that mixed at first. from the . not all half bloods id with may tee but can be. metis means mix so really ---- but metis is nation of mix bloods and at that time a hlf blood was discrimined by white and red a fell in with their own.the metis history is from the shadows were they wanted to be, to enter into to the history of the metis roots and fur connection, mean you will be buying different books from the norm fur history. i can only help show you the way cannot make you drink the water. Ft HALL will at this time i can not find any firm info on metis and ft. hall , don,t forget indivual doing his own thing. i have to add a little jab here. i have been to fort hall and fort union. i don t know if ft hall people rebuilt by old times. buuut i much rether say the metis built ft union than ft hall. ft union is truely a pearl on the high plans. to day fort hall kind of drab place. isn,t fr union records of that time period of fur trade. i think they were there to. i not sure about that, but i think so.""" i ref. the book THE FUR TRADE IN NORTH DAKOTA edited by virginia l.heidenreich State historical Society of NORTH DAKOTA. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: halfbreed vis metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 22:08:39 -0600 i ref. the book THE FUR TRADE IN NORTH DAKOTA edited by virginia l.heidenreich State historical Society of NORTH DAKOTA. Hello Ponyrider, I think the names are a strong indicator of the individuals involved. Not only French names. Vern Carpenter is a descendent of the Metis. So is Gary Johnson. And they do not have French names. Also Laramie. That is located on the North Platte is named after a Frenchman, a Metis I believe. The AFC employed a lot of Metis. Not just at Fort Union. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Just thinking . . . most probably Off Topic Date: 12 Oct 2000 00:46:07 EDT Hallo the Camp. . . Well, I was thinking tonight. What else do you do in Washington when the sun doesn't shine and you can't see the moon? I was thinking of what I've learned since I began my exploration of the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade and the priceless knowledge I've found on this list. I was thinking of you renegades I've met along the way, and have come to depend upon. You know who you are and I thank you very much. I was thinking of the times I saw a post on this list and I thought, "Right On." OR "Are these folks mentally challenged?" I was thinking of the bantering back and forth and, of late, wondering . . . . is this really what Dean Rudy had in mind when he masterfully began these archives? I was thinking of the unexpected friendships I've found along the way and how much I appreciate the invaluable information the list has shared. How many times have I come to this rectangular campfire late at night and found your voices? Sometimes I wonder what planet you folks are from, spitting out words about dinosaurs, Metis, Dutch Ovens, saddles, Fort Hall . . . I'm sure I've forgotten a few topics . . but at least we share a passion. Regardless -- off topic, on topic, period correct, or hysterically incorrect . . . . I'm going to hit SEND now. Look out for squalls and I wish ----- Fair weather to you all, Wind1838@aol.com Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Just thinking . . . most probably Off Topic Date: 11 Oct 2000 22:13:23 -0700 Laura: Well spoken and a mirror of how I feel about this list. You are absolutely right...this list fills in lotsa late hours...this list and others similar to it. I have learned more about lotsa "stuff" that I hadn't even thought about before. Lots of good people and lots to learn. Regards from rainy and cool Coos Bay, Oregon. Ghostrider ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Metis---the final post Date: 12 Oct 2000 00:52:32 -0600 Hello the List Well, this thread on Metis has been interesting. Guess I've made all the points I can. And I bet everyone's tired of it, and have reached their own conclusion from the facts given. And like Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that". A fine exercise of our first amendment rights! America, what a country. Walt, May all your guns spark on the first attempt, Your traps be irresistable to beaver, And deer and elk take that last long broadside look at you. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis---the final post Date: 12 Oct 2000 06:03:19 -0600 Allen Hall wrote: > Hello the List > > Well, this thread on Metis has been interesting. Guess I've made all the > points I can. And I bet everyone's tired of it, and have reached their own > conclusion from the facts given. > > And like Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that". > > Allen > > ---------------------- "Gump" was he a Metis ! ! ! ! Kind of acts like Mr. Miles at times. Buck ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis---the final post Date: 12 Oct 2000 09:27:21 -0400 Now ya went and hurt my feelings, Buck.... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis Date: 11 Oct 2000 22:48:51 -0600 >Ponyrider wrote: > > if at the NORTHERN FORTS there was a french >name on the roster good chance we were there. I would tend to agree, especially after about 1820. > angela hope your files are better shape then mine i just torn the h--- >out of the hiverant metis files. how are you as a back up in pissinmatch? I'll do my best! But my info mostly cuts off at 1821. I'm afraid that means I can't help with the Fort Hall question. >john r sweet (Hawkengun@aol.com) wrote: > >OK, so what makes a person a metis? Here are some quotes from the Canadian fur trade; anything in square brackets is supplied by me: "The numerous connections between the traders and the Indian women have given birth to a race called Metiss or Bois Brulee's by the [French-speaking] Canadians, and half bred by the Europeans [i.e. English, Scots]. The former are uneducated, volatile and vicious, like the Canadians; but the latter add the qualifications of an Indian hunter, to the sedateness and industry of the Europeans. They gladly learn to read and write, are proud of the advantages which they derive from their birth, and will not be persuaded to adopt the wandering and uncertain manner of life recommended to them by their Indian relations." Cumberland House, Winter 1819-1820 (Hood, 49) "they were half-breeds--or as the Canadians call them Metiss or Bois-brulees--they were tolerably decent in appearance and well clothed... These people are very numerous, and of the greatest utility to the trading merchants. They are silent, and apparently sulky crafty and extremely revengeful, seldom forgiving an injury--and never forgetting one, ready, by persuasion or gain to perpetrate any crime, however black." Robinson Lake, 1818? (Back, 18-19) "...half-breeds, a race who, keeping themselves distinct from both Indians and whites, form a tribe of themselves; and, although they have adopted some of the customs and manners of the French voyageurs, are much more attached to the wild and savage manners of the Redman." 1846 (Kane, 49) Today, historians and anthropologists use many different definitions of 'metis'; unfortunately, not everyone can agree on a single meaning. Here are some shades and nuances of 'metis', from off the top of my head: 'metis', 'mixed-blood': any one who has both Native and non-Native ancestors. 'Metis' (note the capital M!): Child or descendant of a North West Company employee and a Native woman. e.g. Charlotte Thompson (nee Small, daughter of NWC partner Patrick Small and a Cree woman) 'country-born', 'citizen of Hudson's Bay': Child or descendant of a Hudson's Bay Company employee, and a Native woman. e.g. Mary Norton, daughter of HBC governor Moses Norton and his Native wife. The reason some people feel it's important to make a distinction between metis, Metis, and country-born is because the NWC & HBC had a different language & 'corporate culture', and this was passed on to their children & descendants. Using this distinction in a modern context can be offensive. Allen Hall noted that he found no mention of Metis in the indexes of numerous journals he consulted. Allen, I can't comment about what happened after 1820, but I know that in the Canadian fur trade journals of the 1774-1821 period, it can be devilishly hard to pin down who is and is not metis. The word metis was not much used in English; the term half-breed was used far more often, but often the only way to determine whether someone is, or is not, metis is by actually finding information about their parents. My impression is that if a metis was in disfavor, they were called 'a *$^&@ half-breed'; if they were a valued employee or trading partner, they were simply referred to by name. Using indexes as a vest-pocket reference has certain weaknesses. In some books (usually ones published before 1960), the indexes may only cross-reference the names of places and people. In books with more complete indexes, you still cannot count on the person doing the indexing to index what you're interested in. Some subjects are very slippery, and rarely show up in indexes, even when they're in the journals themselves. A prime example of this is 'women'; I've found a lot of women in fur trade journals, but only rarely have I found them in the index. Finding a subject heading in an index confirms there's a reference to it in the journal indexed; not finding it in the index, unfortunately, does not. Another couple of interesting sources for folks interested in Metis are Sylvia Van Kirk's book, _Many Tender Ties_, and Jennifer S.H. Brown's _Strangers in Blood_. The latter has just been re-issued in paperback, so it's cheaper & more readily available than before. (If folks need the full info to find these books, just ask.) _The New Peoples_, which was mentioned already, is also very good. I need to get around to reading Ponyrider's other two references. So many books, so little time... Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:53:59 -0600 Hi Buck, This is the time of year that Jim Bridger, Osborn Russell and a large party of mountain men went into camp at the mouth of the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone River in 1836. This camp was 5 months long. That maybe makes it the longest camp in old time mountain history. If you are passing through this way I would be glad to show you around. Based on your business interest I have seen on the screen. I could help you make some appropriate introductions. There are going to be way more tourists passing through here than there are of us.. Bring your bow. If you are interested give me a call at 406 633 2497. Sincerely, Walt Foster ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:52:01 -0600 In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the discussion on metis. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:01:24 -0700 Angela, I'm sure I speak for all in sending you our deepest condolences. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:52 AM > In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I > would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. > However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. > > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis---the final post Allen Hall Date: 12 Oct 2000 11:03:48 -0600 Thanks Allen, I still prefer my bow and would rather trap Pine Marten in the old days rather than beaver. You are a good sport. Try key boarding in Metis in your search engine. A study of the Metis Art is enlightening regarding clothing from 1825 to 1840. It is beautiful here this morning looking off towards the Beartooth Mountains where Osborn Russell and the others were trapping before returning here to spend the winter of 1836 - 1837. I have enjoyed most everyday on this historic ground gazing at the geography that gave rise to so much history between here and there. Sincerely, Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: congress at work Date: 12 Oct 2000 13:34:01 EDT FYI Explorer William Clark Promoted -- Two Centuries Late Reuters WASHINGTON (Oct. 11) - Nearly 200 years after their great expedition of discovery of the American West, the House of Representatives voted to promote William Clark to captain, the rank held by his colleague, Meriwether Lewis. Despite promises made by President Thomas Jefferson that Clark would be commissioned as a captain, he remained a lieutenant, although considered co-commander of the expedition, for which he also kept a journal and made the maps. With the approaching bicentennial of the Lewis and Clark expedition, which began in May 1804, the bill's sponsor said it was time to follow through on the captaincy. ''Despite the clearly stated intentions (of) President Jefferson and Lewis, a number of actions denied Clark his rightful rank,'' said Rep. Doug Bereuter, a Nebraska Republican who is co-chairman of the House Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Congressional Caucus. ''Clark served his country admirably and emerged, along with Lewis, as a true American hero for all time,'' Bereuter pointed out Tuesday. After the epic expedition from St. Louis to the Pacific coast ended in 1806, Clark went on to be a brigadier general in the militia, superintendent of Indian affairs and governor of the Missouri Territory. He died in 1838 at the age of 68. The bill posthumously promotes Clark to the grade of captain in the Regular Army -- and specifies that ''no person is entitled to any bonus, gratuity, pay or allowance'' as a result. The Senate has to act on the measure and President Clinton has to sign it for the promotion to take effect. Reuters 11:51 10-11-00 Ben Rainey ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:58:16 -0700 Dear Angela, You have been a gentle and knowledgeable participant in this passion we all share. I have come to respect your wisdom and look forward to your notes. I am saddened by your loss. I pray that time will ease your current pain and strengthen your fondest memories. Peace, dear Lady. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:52 AM > In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I > would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. > However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. > > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 10:57:58 -0700 (PDT) I know too well what you went through and know what lies ahead. Tis a different world now without him already, isn't it? May God bless. --- Angela Gottfred wrote: > In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such > a bald announcement; I > would just use stationery with a black border for my > correspondence. > However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail > programs. > > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious > struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & > patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. > Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the > meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== defstones When men are pure, laws are useless; when men are corrupt, laws are broken. Benjamin Disraeli (1804 - 1881) The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. Anatole France __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 11:01:30 -0700 Dear Angela Please permit me to add my condolences to what is sure to be an outpouring of support. May I say that your postings have always been among the very finest on this list and I have always read them with pleasure. Your recent posting on the Metis topic is a fine example -- some useful distinctions to guide the rest of us in sorting out the various claims and evidence. It's common knowledge (I trust) that the mixed blood French and Indian people, who developed a distinct culture called "metis", took an active part in the fur trade, especially the northerly regions, but your posting helped me understand more about their terms as well as supplying fascinating impressions from the commentators of their time. Such direct quotes are equally revealing of the author's mind-set as well as what they are reporting. May your voyage through the region of grief bring you safely to such acceptance as we can ever gain for the loss of loved ones. Your Obedient Servant Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:52 AM In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the discussion on metis. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 11:14:40 -0700 Angela, I don't usually read all the posts on this list, yours and a few others only. I send you my heartfelt condolences. Rick Baird ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri river Date: 12 Oct 2000 03:34:51 -0600 Wow, thanks bill, don't know why it changed, bet it was them dern kids of mine joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 15:58:33 -0600 Angela, My depest sympathy on your loss. YMOS Ole#718 ---------- >From: Angela Gottfred >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) >Date: Thu, Oct 12, 2000, 10:52 AM > >In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I >would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. >However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. > >My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. >As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any >errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, >but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying >the discussion on metis. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:56:35 -0600 --------------D72E2E89AF9C18CB175328F2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela Gottfred wrote: > In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I > would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence. > However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs. > > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Angela, The death of anyone is sad, the death of a family member is hardier yet, but those with health problems like your father's, it sometimes is a blessing for their pain to end. At this time that sounds hard, but he's in a better place - that we will all get to see one day. Remember your friends are here - and you have our deepest condolences, God bless those that have gone to the other side, their struggle is over. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------D72E2E89AF9C18CB175328F2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela Gottfred wrote:

In a previous century, I wouldn't have to make such a bald announcement; I
would just use stationery with a black border for my correspondence.
However, that just isn't supported by most e-mail programs.

My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer.
As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any
errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine,
but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying
the discussion on metis.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Angela,

The death of anyone is sad, the death of a family member is hardier yet, but those with health problems like your father's, it sometimes is a blessing for their pain to end. At this time that sounds hard, but he's in a better place - that we will all get to see one day.

Remember your friends are here - and you have our deepest condolences, God bless those that have gone to the other side, their struggle is over.

Later,

Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
   ______________________________________________
         HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers".
   ________________________________________HRD__
Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
                                                            Aux Aliments de Pays!
______________________________________________
 
  --------------D72E2E89AF9C18CB175328F2-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:14:15 -0700 > Angela, > The death of anyone is sad, the death of a family member is hardier > yet, but those with health problems like your father's, it sometimes is > a blessing for their pain to end. At this time that sounds hard, but he's > in a better place - that we will all get to see one day. >

Remember your friends are here - and you have our deepest condolences, > God bless those that have gone to the other side, their struggle is over. > Later, > Barry "Buck" Conner Angela, Well said Buck, same goes from the folks here in Pennsylvania, our deepest condolences, God Bless. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dave tonneman Subject: Re: MtMan-List: congress at work Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:29:12 -0700 (PDT) On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:34:01 EDT, hist_text@lists.xmission.com wrote: > FYI > Explorer William Clark Promoted -- Two Centuries Late > I hate to sound like the backside of a mule, however, considering the events occuring on this date, I believe the house of reps has wasted my payroll dollars on this. also, dohis heirs recieve back pay for this promation? Please all ask God for benevolence upon those fellow sailors who are undergoing the trial of thier lives. Peace to thier families and Wisdom to world leaders. Dave Tonneman GMM3 USN. _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FindArticles - The Ecological Indian: Myth and History.(Review) Date: 12 Oct 2000 19:45:29 EDT I just finished Krech's ECOLOGICAL INDIAN, and I highly recommend it to anyone on this list. John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 20:01:38 EDT Please accept my sincere condolences. John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 14 Oct 2000 20:27:50 -0400 angelia our prayers are with you---if you need anything let us know on or off line---best to you and yours---will be thinking of you and yours---off to hunt on sunday to make meat so will set my subscription to no mail then---co contact me direct if i can do anything--- best to you andf yours YMHOS =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hsteven-pepke@webtv.net (H Steven Pepke) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 18:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Angela, Please accept my sympathy and condolences for your loss. Steve Pepke True Bear Issaquah, WA Protect your Second Amendment rights, vote Republican this time! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: bordered in black Date: 12 Oct 2000 19:12:13 MDT Angela, condolences! i had the same happen in march.there will allways be a scare for that person.but time does heal,even if it hurts now. you are a good les solda and would make a good capain of ten. i wish i was as refined as some and could word this better. i know my dad and brother have given your dad a beer and offered to trade some good horse flesh and storys. which i'm sure they have both in heaven. i will sweat and go to the hills with some tobbaco.in respect for your dad and so my prayers will be closer to heaven. you can watch my back anytime bon ami. bon par bon ami ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner Date: 12 Oct 2000 19:51:38 -0600 --------------50D81099F050946753EDB15D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt Foster wrote: > Hi Buck, > If you are passing through this way I would be glad to show you around. Based > on your business interest I have seen on the screen. I could help you make > some appropriate introductions. There are going to be way more tourists > passing through here than there are of us.. Bring your bow. If you are > interested give me a call at 406 633 2497. > Sincerely, > Walt Foster Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I will have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------50D81099F050946753EDB15D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt Foster wrote:

Hi Buck,
If you are passing through this way I would be glad to show you around.  Based on your business interest I have seen on the screen.  I could help you make some appropriate introductions.  There are going to be way more tourists passing through here than there are of us..  Bring your bow.  If you are interested give me a call at 406 633 2497.
Sincerely,
Walt Foster
Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I will have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year.

Later,

Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
   ______________________________________________
         HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers".
   ________________________________________HRD__
Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
                                                            Aux Aliments de Pays!
______________________________________________
 
 
  --------------50D81099F050946753EDB15D-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:23:23 EDT Thanks Mike, Will give you a holler when (not if ) I be needin some educatin about the trade rifle! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:24:58 EDT Let us PLEASE keep Al Gore and politics out of this haven for the end of the day! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:36:53 EDT Frank, do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening in the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis lang-michif Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:43:51 EDT Just a note: and this may help alleviate some confusion...I am from "Black Scot" ancestry (with a little cherokee for good measure - my great great grandfather single handedly intorduce several strains of VD to the eastern band) - anyway, the term was used to describe a people with olive skin, black hair and usually (for whatever reason) stayed in a whole lot of trouble due to their penchant for fighting. It is a heritage I am truly proud of. Would this make me a "metis"? -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEXASLAZYB@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:44:56 EDT Angela, I'm sorry to hear of the passing of your father. Please know that you are in our thoughts. Blue Lodge ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner Date: 12 Oct 2000 20:50:18 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0348E.08202A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I will have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year. Hi Buck, I sure hope D. isn’t going to show her how to use it! VBG Spring is a good time to look around. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0348E.08202A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I will = have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the = new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year. =

 

 

Hi= Buck,

 

I = sure hope D. isn’t going to show her how to use it! = VBG

 

Sp= ring is a good time to look around.

 

Wa= lt

Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837

Clark = Bottom Rendezvous

Yellowsto= ne Canoe Camp

On the = Lewis & Clark Trail

Park = City, Montana

<= font color=3Dblack> <= /p>

 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0348E.08202A60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: bordered in black Date: 12 Oct 2000 20:50:22 -0600 Angela, our prayers are with you. Sincerely, Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bordered in black Date: 12 Oct 2000 23:03:33 -0400 On Thursday 12 October 2000 23:03, you wrote: > Angela, our prayers are with you. For sure! Fred -- If you listen on a quiet night, you can hear the sound of an NT Server reboot. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:16:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0349A.086F6560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few = other weapons to boot. In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can = use as a weapon, military spook training being what it is. For What it's Worth Lanney Ratcliff=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:50 PM Thanks Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring = and I will have to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke = (dried out) and the new one Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a = trade last year.=20 =20 =20 Hi Buck, =20 I sure hope D. isn't going to show her how to use it! VBG =20 Spring is a good time to look around. =20 Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana=20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0349A.086F6560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few = other=20 weapons to boot.  In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can = use as a=20 weapon,  military spook training being what it is.
For What it's Worth
Lanney Ratcliff 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Walt Foster =
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Buck Conner

Thanks=20 Walt for the offer, I just may take you up on that in the spring and I = will have=20 to call you about making a new bow, my old one broke (dried out) and the = new one=20 Dennis Mile's Mrs. ended up with it in a trade last year. =

 

 

Hi=20 Buck,

 

I sure=20 hope D. isn’t going to show her how to use it!=20 VBG

 

Spring=20 is a good time to look around.

 

Walt

Original Rocky=20 Mountain College 1836-1837

Clark = Bottom=20 Rendezvous

Yellowstone=20 Canoe Camp

On = the Lewis=20 & Clark Trail

Park = City,=20 Montana

<= FONT=20 color=3Dblack> 

 =20
 

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C0349A.086F6560-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 12 Oct 2000 21:29:59 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C03493.9363C500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few other weapons to boot. In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can use as a weapon, military spook training being what it is. For What it's Worth Lanney Ratcliff Hi Buck, I sure hope D. isn’t going to show her how to use it! VBG Lanney, Most interesting. Chatter on. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C03493.9363C500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few other weapons = to boot.  In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can use as a weapon,  military spook training being what it = is.

For What it's Worth

Lanney Ratcliff 

 

Hi Buck,

 

I sure hope D. isn’t going to show her = how to use it! VBG

 

 
Lanney,

 

Most interesting.  Chatter = on.

 

Walt

Original Rocky Mountain College = 1836-1837

Clark = Bottom Rendezvous=

Yellow= stone Canoe Camp=

On = the Lewis & Clark Trail

Park = City, Montana

<= span class=3DEmailStyle20> 

 

 <= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C03493.9363C500-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Outzi Date: 12 Oct 2000 21:31:38 -0600 Hey Concho, I would like to chatter on a bit about this old time mountain man from the Alps who passed to the other side camp some 5300 years ago. He had more than 100 items with him. He is significant in the chain of history of appreciation of a mountain man then and now. Some say he carried a bow that was not yet completed. I would like to start there because this is fundamental to understand his capability. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzelloading In South Carolina Date: 12 Oct 2000 23:31:29 -0400 C.Kent wrote: >do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening in the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. Mr. Kent, Where in SC are you? I am in Greenville County. We have a muzzelloader club in Gray Court and a mountain man store in Pelzer. There is a bunch of us around here! Please contact me off-list. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:36:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C0349C.EEB425E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walt Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and = end this thread before it starts. ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:29 PM I suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few = other weapons to boot. In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can = use as a weapon, military spook training being what it is. For What it's Worth Lanney Ratcliff=20 =20 Hi Buck, =20 I sure hope D. isn't going to show her how to use it! VBG =20 =20 Lanney, =20 Most interesting. Chatter on. =20 Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana=20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C0349C.EEB425E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Walt
Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will = pass and=20 end this thread before it starts.
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Walt Foster =
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:29 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff

I=20 suspect that Dennis can show her how to use a bow.......and a few other = weapons=20 to boot.  In fact you might be surprised what Dennis can use as a=20 weapon,  military spook training being what it = is.

For=20 What it's Worth

Lanney = Ratcliff 

 

Hi=20 Buck,

 

I sure=20 hope D. isn’t going to show her how to use it!=20 VBG

 

 =20
Lanney,

 

Most interesting.  Chatter = on.

 

Walt

Original=20 Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837

Clark Bottom=20 Rendezvous

Yellowstone=20 Canoe Camp

On = the Lewis=20 & Clark Trail

Park City,=20 Montana

<= SPAN=20 class=3DEmailStyle20> 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C0349C.EEB425E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 12 Oct 2000 22:20:35 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0349A.A4E43100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Walt Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and end this thread before it starts. Suit yourself. To chat is a relaxed form of talking about something. Maybe next time you won’t answer for Buck. Respectfully, Walt ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0349A.A4E43100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff

 

Walt<= /p>

Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and end this = thread before it starts.

 <= /p>

Suit yourself.  To chat is a = relaxed form of talking about something.  Maybe next time you won’t answer for = Buck.

Respectfully,

Walt

 

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0349A.A4E43100-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Outzi Date: 13 Oct 2000 00:21:27 EDT I have the original article from the paper at the time of discovery, showing drawings of items and proximity to the body. Be glad to share with anyone interested. Just got to dig it out. Till trails cross Turtle #1199 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff/Walt Alert Date: 13 Oct 2000 01:44:26 EDT > Suit yourself. To chat is a relaxed form of talking about something. May= be > next time you won=E2=80=99t answer for Buck. Walt, Looks like you got a software upgrade for that new fangled box in front of=20 you. You need to go in and set it up properly cause it is attaching all sorts of=20 garbage to your emails. Not that it makes any difference to anyone here, bu= t=20 I know of another list that will bounce all your postings back at ya because= =20 of it. Go to options. Set it to Plain text only...........turn everything else off. This will result in your messages being less than 3 gigabites long. TOF ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 13 Oct 2000 07:07:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C034E4.47628280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Again your predilection for condescension comes to the fore. I didn't = answer for Buck, but you know that. I will allow you to have the last = word, as you always must. Equally Respectfully Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:20 PM =20 Walt Little girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and = end this thread before it starts. =20 Suit yourself. To chat is a relaxed form of talking about something. = Maybe next time you won't answer for Buck. Respectfully, Walt =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C034E4.47628280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Again your predilection for condescension comes to the fore.  = I didn't=20 answer for Buck, but you know that. I will allow you to have the last = word, as=20 you always must.
Equally Respectfully
Lanney Ratcliff
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Walt Foster =
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:20 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff

Subject: Fw: = MtMan-List:=20 Lanney Ratcliff

 

Walt

Little=20 girls chatter and I suffer condescension badly so I will pass and end = this=20 thread before it starts.

 

Suit=20 yourself.  To chat is a = relaxed form=20 of talking about something.  = Maybe=20 next time you won’t answer for Buck.

Respectfully,

Walt

 

<= /DIV> ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C034E4.47628280-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzelloading In South Carolina Date: 13 Oct 2000 08:54:10 -0400 Possum Hunter, Please contact me off list. Can't get an e-mail to go thru to you. Tks, Dennis Earp ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:31 PM > C.Kent wrote: > >do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening in > the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend > some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. > > Mr. Kent, Where in SC are you? I am in Greenville County. We have a > muzzelloader club in Gray Court and a mountain man store in Pelzer. There is > a bunch of us around here! Please contact me off-list. > > Possum > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 13 Oct 2000 11:27:56 -0400 C.Kent, There is a rendezvous up in Dahlonega Georgia Oct 19-22. It is a nice informal rendezvous. You can bring any kind of muzzleloader except inline and shoot in the competition and you are not required to be dressed for it. I use to do this one alot awhile ago as the setting is off a main road going up to the mountains. As a vendor I use to make a nice amount of cash from the tourists. There is also knife/hawk and prim. archery. Give me a call at 77-706-9051 and leave your number and I will tell you about it. Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:36 PM > Frank, do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening > in the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend > some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. > > -C. Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lanney Ratcliff Date: 13 Oct 2000 09:52:18 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C034FB.45F69F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt Again your predilection for condescension Lanney, sorry your not feeling well. I hope you get better soon. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C034FB.45F69F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Walt<= /p>

Again your predilection for = condescension<= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

Lanney, sorry your not feeling = well.  I hope you get better = soon.

 

 

Walt

Original Rocky Mountain College = 1836-1837

Clark = Bottom Rendezvous

Yellowst= one Canoe Camp

On the = Lewis & Clark Trail

Park = City, Montana

<= span class=3DEmailStyle22> 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C034FB.45F69F00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List:TOF Date: 13 Oct 2000 10:56:14 -0600 Thanks TOF, Your bull elk is riding herd on 14 cows. Yesterday when I went by him = on the way to take my wife to the doctor I could see him bugling while = walking down a cow. He has lost a bunch of weight. Horns look good = though. A nice 6 X 7. Thanks for the helping hand. I checked the options. Thanks. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Outzi Date: 13 Oct 2000 11:00:27 -0600 I have the original article from the paper at the time of discovery, showing drawings of items and proximity to the body. Be glad to share with anyone interested. Just got to dig it out. Till trails cross Turtle #1199 ---------------------- Hi Turtle, Besides the Ice Man's bow. One of the things I looked for was his footgear. The documentaries I saw last year on the history channel showed much of his gear in detail. The have been several shows. Each one a bit better than the other in details. Does the article you have talk about his gear? Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bordered in black (OT) Date: 12 Oct 2000 21:43:24 -0500 > My father died last week, after a long and tenacious struggle with cancer. > As a result, I must ask for your understanding & patient indulgence for any > errors or omissions I might make in my postings. Right now, I'm doing fine, > but that's subject to change without notice. In the meantime, I'm enjoying > the discussion on metis. > I'm truly sorry to hear that Angela, I will mention you and your's in my prayers. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 13 Oct 2000 15:36:46 -0500 > Seems that you know your stuff. > Thank you. I have worn out a couple of library cards and almost worn out my welcome at a couple of libraries. ;-) > Do you have any books that you would recommend? My information that I have > gotten off the net leads me to believe that the Longhunter period started in > the late 1790 after the indian wars and continued into the early 1800's. It > seemed to be a very short period. > The longhunter period was a short lived period. The great herds of bison, elk and deer were long gone by the1790's. Kentucky had a large enough population to become a state in 1792, or '93, don't remember off hand. Try Seedtime on the Cumberland for a good overview of the longhunters in KY and TN. You might also read Allen Eckert's "Frontier series" of books. Start with the one about the F&I period, don't remember the name, but it's about William Johnson and his rise to fame and fortune before and during the French and Indian War. The best of the lot is the Frontiersman. It's about Simon Kenton and Tecumseh. Eckert's books are a good read for a reasonable overview of the culture of the various periods covered in those books. Be aware that while Eckert did considerable research, his books are historical FICTION, and he did take considerable literary license with the truth. The only reliable parts of Eckert's books are listed in the bibliography. Everything else is FICTION. They are a good read though. Use the bibliography in books and at the end of magazine articles for reference materials. Those books listed in the bib are the source for the information quoted in books and magazines, and you can learn allot just by reading those sources. > When I attend the rendezvous I am usually wearing my deerskin leggins, > breach cloth, mocs along with a home made muslin shirt. My outer coat is > made of duck and it follows the traditional look, very plain. I try to be > as authentic as possible and have had many positive comments from both the > old indians and ol timers on the articles and garments that I have made.. > This does make me feel good but there is always room for inprovement. > Sounds like you pretty well have it together, and that's good. > I believe that my gear to be affective for me has to have medicine. By this > I mean that it must mean something to me. Your gear might mean allot to you and not be effective. The only way you can determine what is effective and what is not effective is to carry that gear in the woods for a few days and see how well it works. You will get some idea of how your gear works by merely trekking, but to really know how well everything works, wear those clothes, and carry that gear while hunting and practicing woodcraft. There are several good books on woodcraft, the best of the lot are; Bushcraft by Graves. Now out of print. Northern Burshcraft, by Mors Kochanski, and the Naked into the Wilderness books by Mc Pherson. >You will not see me carry any > manuf. equipment, excluding the gun and that will change one day. The hawk > I carry was made by a Cherokee friend, the bowie by an old buckskinner, the > leggins leather I got out of a trade for a badgerskin possibles bag that I > made, I later made the leggins. Well, it's OK to make everything yourself, but ya gotta remember that there were certain things that common folks just didn't ordinarily make. Guns was one of them. Knives and hatchets were some others. Most of those Items were traded, but you have the right idea by wanting hand made items. > > I take it more seriously than most but not as serious as some. My biggest > problem now is making a pack that will fit my needs, which are not much. I > have scraped the lean to for a 7x7 foot duck tarp that will be an everything > shelter. Compact, light and very versatile. Lots of folks take this hobby REAL serious and won't use any mass produced gear. I know one person who occasionally wears a hand made hunting shirt made with hand spun linen and wool, and hand woven on a period loom. Notice I said he occasionally wears this hunting shirt. He has about $300 tied up in that one shirt. Too rich for my blood. The 7X7 tarp is fine, if that will keep you dry and out of the wind. I carry a 9X7 tarp that can be set up with one pole in the middle of one side. The front corners are pulled in as tight as possible to the pole and staked down when the weather gets real bad. This set up keeps me snuggy warm and dry in even the worst weather, but most times I just use the tarp as an envelope. I say that this set up Can be done with one pole, but I usually use a 7 ft pole, or two, inside to support the canvas. > > Alot of the sites I visit on the web seem to cater to the mountain man fur > trade and his needs. If you have a site/s that may cater to the southern > gent who ventured up and down the east coast and sometimes ventured out west > to the mountains. I would be interested. Beware of undocumented information on the web. Anyone can post anything. Right or wrong. Run a search on historical trekking, or living history. Those two categories should keep you busy for a while. This web address will give you a good list of reading material. Hope you have a good library near by. ;-) http://www.hawkcommunications.com/liming/alra/ J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: METIS Date: 13 Oct 2000 19:10:26 -0700 Beam me up Scotty ! Or, just stick a fork in me, cause I'm almost done ! Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis lang-michif Date: 13 Oct 2000 19:06:28 -0700 Would this make me a "metis"? >>Mr. Kent, Huh, No. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: MtMan-List: Interesting site. Date: 13 Oct 2000 18:59:11 -0600 --------------855286D2760B4150C14E22EA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought you might be interested in this site, HREF="http://www.usflag.org/toc.flags.html" Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------855286D2760B4150C14E22EA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought you might be interested in this site,
HREF="http://www.usflag.org/toc.flags.html"

Later,

Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
   ______________________________________________
         HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers".
   ________________________________________HRD__
Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
                                                            Aux Aliments de Pays!
______________________________________________
 
  --------------855286D2760B4150C14E22EA-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Ice Man Information. Date: 13 Oct 2000 19:11:02 -0600 --------------EF13745052B6427C291BF48F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt Foster wrote: > I have the original article from the paper at the time of discovery, showing > drawings of items and proximity to the body. Be glad to share with anyone > interested. Just got to dig it out. > > Till trails cross > > Turtle #1199 > > ---------------------- > > Hi Turtle, > > Besides the Ice Man's bow. One of the things I looked for was his footgear. > The documentaries I saw last year on the history channel showed much of his > gear in detail. The have been several shows. Each one a bit better than > the other in details. > > Does the article you have talk about his gear? > > Walt Hey Turtle, I have received e-mails about this "Ice Man" off list from members of this list that didn't want to start a "thread" that some where not interested in. Seems to be several interested in your article, let me know the cost of copying it and postage to Colorado, I'll send you the funds and copy it to an e-mail so those interested can enjoy this great find, then after we are done reviewing it we can talk about this early mountain man being more knowledgeable of him and his wares. From there we could compare the items he carried with what we have and how his or our period items maybe alike or better and so on. Could be we may find he knew something our forefather's slipped up on or then again improved on, could be lengthy and we may need to go off list and discuss this between ourselves if not everyone is interested. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ --------------EF13745052B6427C291BF48F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt Foster wrote:

I have the original article from the paper at the time of discovery, showing
drawings of items and proximity to the body.  Be glad to share with anyone
interested.  Just got to dig it out.

Till trails cross

Turtle #1199

----------------------

Hi Turtle,

Besides the Ice Man's bow.  One of the things I looked for was his footgear.
The documentaries I saw last year on the history channel showed much of his
gear in detail.  The have been several shows.  Each one a bit better than
the other in details.

Does the article you have talk about his gear?

Walt

Hey Turtle,

I have received e-mails about this "Ice Man" off list from members of this list that didn't want to start a "thread" that some where not interested in.  Seems to be several interested in your article, let me know the cost of copying it and postage to Colorado, I'll send you the funds and copy it to an e-mail so those interested can enjoy this great find, then after we are done reviewing it we can talk about this early mountain man being more knowledgeable of him and his wares. From there we could compare the items he carried with what we have and how his or our period items maybe  alike or better and so on.  Could be we may find he knew something our forefather's slipped up on or then again improved on, could be lengthy and we may need to go off list and discuss this between ourselves if not everyone is interested.

Later,

Barry "Buck" Conner
Resource & Documentation for:
   ______________________________________________
         HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers".
   ________________________________________HRD__
Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
                                                            Aux Aliments de Pays!
______________________________________________
 
 
  --------------EF13745052B6427C291BF48F-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzelloading In South Carolina Date: 13 Oct 2000 22:04:03 EDT Possum Hunter, Tell me more about this bunch of mtn. men around the upstate here! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis lang-michif Date: 13 Oct 2000 22:20:52 EDT Just wondering, Pendleton. Guess you, huh, told me, huh? -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Date: 14 Oct 2000 09:49:02 -0700 The biggest and probably the best is the Alafia, that will be held 3rd to 4th weekend -Jan 2001, near Tampa, Fla. http://members.xoom.com/manyscalps/indexpre1840.htm Larger than the Southeastern. Linda Holley HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Frank, do you know of any ronnywous or period re-enactment events happening > in the south...I am just up the road in upstate SC and would like to attend > some and look around before I get into buying or making peeeriod clothes. > > -C. Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Western Teritorial? Date: 14 Oct 2000 07:55:40 -0600 Gentelmen, When and where is the Western Teritorial, I can't locate my Mocasin Mail? YMOS Ole #718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Laguna Mountain Rendezvous Date: 14 Oct 2000 09:59:41 -0400 Barney, Please provide location details. I know how to find Julian. Tom LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > Hello the camp... A grand event coming up 10/18 through 10/22, in the > northern San Diego county area of Southern California, near Julian. > It's primitive, but not a 'juried' event; we run this one to help 'greenies' > get started. > > Anybody from either list that's going to be attending? Have an interest in > having a list members get-together? Let me know, here or offline, and we can > post a meetin' notice on the bulletin board at the entrance to camp... > > Ralph (Barney Fife aka Shoots Himself aka Hole-In-Arm) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lockmiller Subject: MtMan-List: Great Mink Caper, Animal Rights caper backfires Date: 14 Oct 2000 11:22:38 -0400 I received this in my e-mail this morning and, knowing the problems that we re-enactors sometimes have with Animal Rights people, I had to pass it on....LOL Manbear > In August at several mink farms in England, animal rights activists > surreptitiously "liberated" 6,000 of the aggressive, unruly animals. In > the following weeks came dozens of reports of minks killing pets (dogs, > cats, hamsters), chickens, birds in a sanctuary and endangered water > voles. Many minks themselves were killed, either by people protecting > their own animals or in fights with other minks, and some minks were > said to have died of the stress of being released into the wild. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jody & Scott" Subject: MtMan-List: Charlotte, NC Date: 14 Oct 2000 13:28:11 -0500 Esteemed List Members, I will be finding myself in Charlotte, NC, over the weekend of the 21st-22nd, October... Is there anything there abouts that I should be sure to see? I will have all of Sunday to myself, and I am interested to find a museum or such to visit. In advance, I thank you, Scott C sjsdm@conpoint.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rkleinx2@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Parks Date: 14 Oct 2000 15:24:34 EDT Trappers knew certain locales in present Colorado as North Park, Middle Park and South Park. Would someone please idenify these places for me by naming a town that is in each of these 'Parks'. ( Or any other suitable method such as township etc.). Thank you. Dick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 14 Oct 2000 19:55:35 EDT Maybe one of you coons out there can answer me a question. I was hiking today with a hiking buddy who used to sponsor a few ronnys at his place (and has some fantastic custom flinters by the way) and the term "Eastern Mtn. Man" (not long hunter) wsa used to describe their persona. Does anyone know the difference between the Eastern vs. Western Mtn. Men? Also, when is the chat group held and what time! Thanks! -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 14 Oct 2000 17:24:02 -0700 Does anyone know > the difference between the Eastern vs. Western Mtn. Men? C. Kent, Not to be flippent but basicly the Western Mtn. Men were the Eastern Mtn. Men gone west. The eastern mt. man might be classed with any group of frontiersmen that roamed the eastern woodlands and mountains beyond the edge of civilization up to and including the start of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade on or about the time of Capt.s Lewis and Clarks return. The eastern mt. man in the guise of several members of that expedition went with the Capt.s as hunters and etc. The titles only serve to separate the grounds on which such men roamed. Their mode's of operation changed some what with the changing needs of their suroundings and the connections with commercial enterprise and such but generally, I believe they are basicly the same people perhaps separated by the span of time and changes in fashion and gear to a small degree. One might see small differences in clothing and gear but not that great a difference. Foot travel might have been more common amongst the eastern mtn. man but horses were used. The western mtn. man by necessity was mounted or looking for his next horse. Because of that difference there was a difference in what was carried to a point though I don't think personal gear was all that different. The guns weren't all that different until late in the RMFT era when they started to become short bbls with half stocks and very late in the eara, percussion. The clothing was a bit different though it is hard to know exactly what was worn since very little other than contemporary paintings and some few written discriptions exist and they are all under suspicion for one reason or another. Generally I think we have gotten it wrong for the most part in the past history of modern buckskinning. Well, anyway the list has been quiet so perhaps this will stir things up a bit. Always good for an opinion, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' What chat group? There's a bunch of us getting together tonight in Hermiston to chat with our long lost Brother, Mssr. Ron Petrie lately from Manila, where he has been posted to do government business and sell our furs sent out from Astoria, but it is a closed party. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 14 Oct 2000 07:15:33 -0700 C.Kent- From what I know.... the first Mountain Men were fresh from the East (1820's). I , and others, refer to these men as 'transitional'. They had much in common with the Eastern Longhunters, but with time and distance assumed a little different custom of dress and behavior. I tend to portray a 'transitional' Mtn. Man, ie. early period. This is probably what your friends call an Eastern Mtn. Man? My friends call me a 'cross dresser'.... Gotta love those guys .... Hope this helps..... hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parks Date: 14 Oct 2000 23:13:54 -0600 Dick, While the parks were loosely used to describe certain areas, they can be easily found yet today. The easiest to mention is "South Park" (Bayou Salade or salt marsh) - a large mountain valley which stretches from Kenoska Pass on the north side to about Red Hill on the south (which is almost to the Arkansas River). Towns in it are Fairpaly, Como and Jefferson. "Middle Park", (old park) a higher park which is close to the eastern side of the Contential Divide and would include: Granby, Frasier and is just west of Rocky Mountian National Park. North Park is on the Colorado/ Wyoming border. Some times called the "Bull Pen" or "New Park". This one I'm less familiar with, Was probably around Four Corners and then goes north to the Medicine Bow mountains in Wyoming. You can follow the LAramie River into Colorado and is seems to be in this park. Alot of the old maps aren't clear on bounderies for the two upper parks. Hope this helps, if you want more info, let me know. mike. Rkleinx2@aol.com wrote: > Trappers knew certain locales in present Colorado as North Park, Middle Park > and South Park. Would someone please idenify these places for me by naming a > town that is in each of these 'Parks'. ( Or any other suitable method such as > township etc.). > Thank you. > Dick > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: is PC? Date: 15 Oct 2000 06:35:45 -0500 JD said of a fellow 'skinner, Very good point. 'Back then' what might have been considered common and ordinary is either unattainable or prohibitively expensive. Most of us do our best with what we have and just try to improve as we go. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Alternitive list Date: 15 Oct 2000 09:43:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0368C.6FDC3E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey All, Interested in a list alternative???=20 Goto http://www.egroups.com/group/scalpdance and check it out... Read = the "rules" and description carefully.... D " ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0368C.6FDC3E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey All,
Interested in a list alternative???
Goto  = http://www.egroups.com/g= roup/scalpdance  and check it out...  Read the "rules" and = description=20 carefully....
D
"
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0368C.6FDC3E00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 12:11:58 -0500 > Does anyone know > > the difference between the Eastern vs. Western Mtn. Men? > > C. Kent, > > Not to be flippent but basicly the Western Mtn. Men were the Eastern Mtn. > Men gone west. The eastern mt. man might be classed with any group of > frontiersmen that roamed the eastern woodlands and mountains beyond the edge > of civilization up to and including the start of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade on > or about the time of Capt.s Lewis and Clarks return. The eastern mt. man in > the guise of several members of that expedition went with the Capt.s as > hunters and etc. > Well, IMHO, you are part right. I have seen one reference calling the eastern mountain men the"over the mountain men" because they traveled west of, or over, the Allegheny mountains. > Foot travel might have been more common amongst the eastern Mt.. > man but horses were used. The western Mt.. man by necessity was mounted or > looking for his next horse. Because of that difference there was a > difference in what was carried to a point though I don't think personal >gear was all that different. Hmmm, not sure how common foot travel really was. Lets not forget that the early over the mountain men were primarily traders and not hunters or trappers, and they couldn't carry much in the way of trade goods on their backs. IF they walked, they certainly lead a pack string, and more probably, they lead a pack string while on horseback. And lets consider how they might have transported the skins and fur back to civilization if they were afoot. Not likely at all. One alternative method of transportation was by boat, and then we need to consider how much bulk and weight could a few men transport in boats vs the amount of skins the same number of men could transport via a pack train, and which method would be more, or less labor intensive. Horses are mentioned allot in Colonial period documentation, and with the distances traveled, and the amount of skins traded why would they walk? Just my tupence J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 12:07:48 -0700 > Well, IMHO, you are part right. I have seen one reference calling the > eastern mountain men the"over the mountain men" because they traveled > west of, or over, the Allegheny mountains. Kent, See, I told you we'd get things stired up some. In a polite way of course. Now as to the term "over the mountains" men, I have heard that used as a reference for the "group" of frontiersmen who actually lived with families, etc. on the very edge or beyond the edge of what was at the time eastern civilization (the towns and villages of settled Colonial and post Rev. War America) but were considered a step above or by some to be on a par with the wild savage. And in at least one famous battle these "over the mountain" men came riding to the rescue from "over the mountain" as it were. Not to take away from what J.D. added but the question was "what's the difference between the eastern and the western mtn. man?" and as I see it there were many varied inidviduals and lifestyles represented over the course of our history that fit within the defines of "mountain man/men". I see early discourse on this subject as having very narrowly singled out one small group and sumarily hung the Title, "Mountain Men" on that group while tending to ignore many others just as deserving of the title. The boschloper, the long hunter, the spy/scout, Rangers, the "over moutain men", the Metis, the courier du bouis, the voyageur, the Rocky Mountain Fur Trapper, etc. all fit into that mistique in one way or another and there are probably groups that I have left out much less misspelled. To exclude some is to fail to pay due respect or celebrate the courage and wanderlust they represent and the part they all play in the history of our country. The quintesential "Mountain Man" is the lone "trekker" by foot or by horse or by boat that roamed the uncharted vastness of this new country. To define by narrow perameters is a mistake. Some eastern and most if not all western "mtn. men" were mounted. Many eastern and some western mtn. men traveled much by water craft (which by the way will haul one hell of a lot more tonnage for effort expended than pack train) rather than by horse. A very few if any (and probably none by choice) western mtn. men and many more eastern mtn. men traveled on foot. IF they walked, they certainly lead a pack string, and more probably, > they lead a pack string while on horseback. It is folly to say that the eastern hunter did not use horses. Of course he did. Did he use canoe, dugout and raft along with bateau to travel and carry on trade? Of course he did. Did he wander off into the forest on foot for weeks or months at a time? Yes. On purpose? Yes. Did the western mt. man do the same? Not very often. It is all generalization. > > And lets consider how they might have transported the skins and fur back > to civilization if they were afoot. Not likely at all. One alternative > method > of transportation was by > boat, and then we need to consider how much bulk and weight > could a few men transport in boats vs the amount of skins the same > number of men could transport via a pack train, and which method > would be more, or less labor intensive. This I have to vigoursly disagree with. I would venture to say that much more freight (skins, etc.) traveled by boat than did by horse back or mules or even cart. The tonnage that can be sent down river from the mountains is many times greater than what can be packstringed out. And with considerably less effort. L&C went up river by boat as far as that mode would take them. They went down the Columbia by boat to the ocean. The Wilson Price Hunt venture to Astoria went up river by boat and then down the Columbia by boat to Astoria. Pitch Pine and oakum were sent to the mountains to caulk plank built boats during the western fur trade used to transport product back down river. There are numerous accounts of water craft from bull boats to very large craft such as flatboats being built and used to move men and products up and down eastern and western rivers from the very beginnings of this country. The french canadian voyagure traveled thousands of miles in large birch frieght canoes and even larger plank built York Boats, Makinaw Boats, Columbia River Boats, etc. The goods moved by pack string was a miniscual drop in the bucket compared to that moved over water. But lest we romanticize one group over another, I suggest we are here to celebrate them all. Whether a lone wanderer or a member of a of large bridage of company men going where few if any europeans had ever gone, they all deserve our respect, admiration and emulation. Eastern, Western, Northern, Southern Mountain Men, Metis, whomever, they are All Heros. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 14:56:32 -0500 On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:07:48 -0700 "Roger Lahti" writes: > > >> Kent, > >. And in at least one famous battle these "over > the > mountain" men came riding to the rescue from "over the mountain" as > it were. Professor Capt. Lahti, Which famous battle are you referring to? Eagerly awaiting your answer, Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 13:52:05 -0700 > Professor Capt. Lahti, > > Which famous battle are you referring to? > > Eagerly awaiting your answer, > Victoria Dang! I knew someone was gona call me on this! . Was during the Rev War. Was on a mountain. Wasn't Fergusons Rifles there and wasn't he kilt? Or almost captured? Come on guys, what was the name of the Battle? Battle of ????? Mountain? Our side wasn't doing all that hot and in comes the "over mountain men" on horse and they went on up the mountain and ran the British off the hill. Right? Maybe we can drop the "Professor" part? OK, OK, I got it, Battle of King's Mountain, South Carolina, Oct. 7, 1780. Under Col. Campbell (400 Virginia riflemen) and Cleveland (350 North Carolina riflemen), John Sevier (with 240 over-mountain men) and Isaac Shelby (with another 240 over-mountain men), a total of 1,400 riflemen of the farmer, hunter and Indian fighting class, march to intercept Major Patrick Ferguson and his 1,100 Lyalists, etc., etc........... Ferguson and his men all Tories except their leader, attempt to hold the hight with the bayonet, while the back woodsmen, or "the yelling boys", assail with the rifle. Twice the Tories force the Patriots down the mountain. The third time this happens, the backwoodsmen swarm up, take the position, kill Ferguson with eight rifle balls and continue killing the surrendering Tories until order is resumed. Etc, Etc. (quoted from "The Frontier Rifleman" by Richard B. laCrosse, Jr.) Did that answer your question Victoria? I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eastern Mtn. Men vs. Western Mtn. Men Date: 15 Oct 2000 18:16:38 -0500 The > third time > this happens, the backwoodsmen swarm up, take the position, kill > Ferguson > with eight rifle balls and continue killing the surrendering Tories > until > order is resumed. Etc, Etc. (quoted from "The Frontier Rifleman" by > Richard > B. laCrosse, Jr.) > > Did that answer your question Victoria? I remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' Capt. Lahti', Ah yes, now I remember reading, last November, about this battle in "The Frontier Rifleman". That was 500 books and two Rendezvous ago. At my age, I can't be ex