From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: coyote film Date: 01 Feb 2002 06:59:18 -0600 A fellow Arkansasan shared this. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife Date: 31 Jan 2002 19:47:44 -0700 thanks, finally got ahold of his wife, girlfriend, mistress, etc. of course tom is at a show, but at least I left a message for him. thanks for all your help. another question, a friend of mine wants to get into the highlander dress, he saids he wants high top moccasins to go with his kilt. I showed him the highlander sketchbook and pointed out that I do not believe high top,(tandy type) was worn by highlanders, but if there were not wearing brogans or some other type of leather shoe, it was eastern style moccasins with leggins or hose/socks. where can he find more reference and supplies for highlander costume? I am considering getting into the costume also, just love the idea of hanging free under a skirt! joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: MtMan-List: deer & elk hides Date: 31 Jan 2002 20:00:14 -0700 I have several hair on deer and elk hides for sale, most have a hole or two, (illegal to choke them and often times quite dangerous) We have so many yet to tan yet and want to get rid of the ones that are tanned. The deer will run $30 for the lower end and $45 for the upper end. elk are $75 for the low end and $150 for the upper ones. these are all good hides, but want to move them. All are prices less than tanning costs. May have some lower end buffalo robes too. I guarantee them to be what you order. thanks, joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Membership Cards Date: 01 Feb 2002 08:31:04 -0700 Gentelmen, Anyone that has paid dues in the AMM for 2002 but has not received there card please contact me at olebjensen@earthlink.net Ole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 10:36:13 -0500 The "Tandy" style hightop mocs are NOT ever appropriate for Highland wear. In the early 1700s, a fort was established by Highland Rangers in Darien, GA. As their English style shoes wore out, they saw the smarts in adopting the local footwear... mocs... BUT... these were low cut, eastern style mocs. Also, they wore Ghillies, which were very similar to mocs, but not sewn, but were tied together and laced up the legs. They did wear "leggings" but usually of wool, not the indian style leather, although some did, so this would be appropriate, but NOT above the knees. This saved the wear and tear on the stockings which were relatively expensive. Many ceased wearing the socks all together, and just wore short leggings to protect their legs. There is a book out called the Highland Ranger... usually available at local 'Vous. Trust me... NOTHING is as great (ok, well, almost as great) as wearing a kilt and being "regimental" under it!! A friend got me into one abot 10 years ago, and it is a WONDERFUL feeling ... I portray a HIghland Ranger from Darien at reenactments at Ft. King George there. Regards, Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 11:29:17 -0500 Ad, AMEN tae that. Manbear Addison Miller wrote: Trust me... NOTHING is as great (ok, well, almost as great) as wearing a kilt and being "regimental" under it!! . Regards, Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: scottish footware Date: 01 Feb 2002 12:54:19 -0600 Joe, Check with Smoke and Fire Co. 1 800 766-5334 They have quite a few Scottish patterns. The gillie Brogues pattern is on page 15 of their 2001-2002 catalog. Lots of other interesting stuff in there too. Regimental and Proud of it, Plaid to the bone! John The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Hand-sewn Leather Goods. Specializing in the American Fur Trade Era. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:47 PM > thanks, finally got ahold of his wife, girlfriend, mistress, etc. of > course tom is at a show, but at least I left a message for him. > thanks for all your help. > > another question, a friend of mine wants to get into the highlander > dress, he saids he wants high top moccasins to go with his kilt. I > showed him the highlander sketchbook and pointed out that I do not > believe high top,(tandy type) was worn by highlanders, but if there > were not wearing brogans or some other type of leather shoe, it was > eastern style moccasins with leggins or hose/socks. where can he find > more reference and supplies for highlander costume? > > I am considering getting into the costume also, just love the idea of > hanging free under a skirt! > joe > -- > Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com > Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 > New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 17:14:41 -0500 I love "regimentals", especially during the Caber toss. Linda HOlley manbear wrote: > Ad, > AMEN tae that. > Manbear > > Addison Miller wrote: > Trust me... NOTHING is as great (ok, well, almost as great) as wearing a > kilt and being "regimental" under it!! . > Regards, > Ad Miller > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 18:31:12 -0700 Ain't nothing sexier than a man in a kilt!!!! Real Men Wear Kilts!!!! Colleen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 19:24:37 -0500 LOL!!! Linda, yer a dirty ol' Lass, ye are!!! hehe... ain't it fun??? I love wearing me kilt... ladies frequently come up to me when I wear it and "grope" me to see it I am regimental... drives my wife nuts!!! LOL!! I kinda like it... Regards, Ad PS: Missed you at Alafia this year.... :(( ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 19:27:31 -0500 Thank ye, Colleen, me Lass :)) Believe me, we men totally enjoy being "checked" by the ladies... Regards, Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 19:32:20 -0500 I guess you have tied on a "Blue Ribbon" or two? Linda Holley... Clan MacPherson Addison Miller wrote: > LOL!!! Linda, yer a dirty ol' Lass, ye are!!! hehe... ain't it fun??? I > love wearing me kilt... ladies frequently come up to me when I wear it and > "grope" me to see it I am regimental... drives my wife nuts!!! LOL!! I kinda > like it... > > Regards, > > Ad > > PS: Missed you at Alafia this year.... :(( > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 19:51:07 -0700 Oh....I love 'The Scotsman's Kilt' song!!! Nothing like following a regiment of kilts and watching that swaying!!!!! Colleen 77th Montgomerie Highlanders ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:32 PM > I guess you have tied on a "Blue Ribbon" or two? > > Linda Holley... Clan MacPherson > > Addison Miller wrote: > > > LOL!!! Linda, yer a dirty ol' Lass, ye are!!! hehe... ain't it fun??? I > > love wearing me kilt... ladies frequently come up to me when I wear it and > > "grope" me to see it I am regimental... drives my wife nuts!!! LOL!! I kinda > > like it... > > > > Regards, > > > > Ad > > > > PS: Missed you at Alafia this year.... :(( > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 19:54:35 -0600 There are certain events that one should be careful of at the games. One year, at a local highland games, one of the laddies forgot to tie doon his kilt before the long jump. The results as he sailed through the air, wi' his kilt ae aboot his ears was hilarious. To make matters worse, he landed poorly, and slid on his arse in the sand. I took care to tie my kilt doon afore running in the foot race. Less likely to have it yanked off, and provided a bit more "ahem" support when I was running. Todd, Missouri Territory, or Spanish Illinois, depending on what year I think it is. At 05:14 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: >I love "regimentals", especially during the Caber toss. > >Linda HOlley > >manbear wrote: > >> Ad, >> AMEN tae that. >> Manbear >> >> Addison Miller wrote: >> Trust me... NOTHING is as great (ok, well, almost as great) as wearing a >> kilt and being "regimental" under it!! . >> Regards, >> Ad Miller >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer & elk hides Date: 01 Feb 2002 19:24:54 -0700 Joe, What are the robe prices? On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:00:14 -0700 Joe Brandl writes: > I have several hair on deer and elk hides for sale, most have a hole > > or two, (illegal to choke them and often times quite dangerous) We > have so many yet to tan yet and want to get rid of the ones that are > > tanned. The deer will run $30 for the lower end and $45 for the > upper > end. elk are $75 for the low end and $150 for the upper ones. these > > are all good hides, but want to move them. All are prices less than > > tanning costs. May have some lower end buffalo robes too. I > guarantee them to be what you order. > thanks, > > joe > -- > Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com > Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture > 307-455-2440 > New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 01 Feb 2002 19:07:12 -0800 Aye, lassie, I dona know what it means but I'm glad I took first place! YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 4:32 PM > I guess you have tied on a "Blue Ribbon" or two? > > Linda Holley... Clan MacPherson > > Addison Miller wrote: > > > LOL!!! Linda, yer a dirty ol' Lass, ye are!!! hehe... ain't it fun??? I > > love wearing me kilt... ladies frequently come up to me when I wear it and > > "grope" me to see it I am regimental... drives my wife nuts!!! LOL!! I kinda > > like it... > > > > Regards, > > > > Ad > > > > PS: Missed you at Alafia this year.... :(( > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Scottish Shoes Date: 01 Feb 2002 20:29:13 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1AB5F.1C8C8AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe, The actual appropriate foot covering would be a pair of Gillie Brogues if= your fried wants to go total Scottish. Smoke and Fire Co. P.O. Box 166= Grand Rapids, OH 43522 makes a pattern for such. If not, then most S= cotsmen would have, of course, adopted the footwear here in the Americas= when they arrived. I've made a few pair of Gillies and they are extreme= ly simple to make and thick cowhide can be used because there is no seam. YMHOS Mike Powell =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:47 AM =20 thanks, finally got ahold of his wife, girlfriend, mistress, etc. of course tom is at a show, but at least I left a message for him. thanks for all your help. another question, a friend of mine wants to get into the highlander dress, he saids he wants high top moccasins to go with his kilt. I showed him the highlander sketchbook and pointed out that I do not believe high top,(tandy type) was worn by highlanders, but if there were not wearing brogans or some other type of leather shoe, it was eastern style moccasins with leggins or hose/socks. where can he find more reference and supplies for highlander costume? I am considering getting into the costume also, just love the idea of hanging free under a skirt! joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455= -2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1AB5F.1C8C8AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joe,
The actual appropriate foot covering would be a pair of Gillie Brogues = if your fried wants to go total Scottish.  Smoke and Fire Co.  = P.O. Box 166  Grand Rapids, OH  43522  makes a patter= n for such.  If not, then most Scotsmen would have, of course, adopt= ed the  footwear here in the Americas when they arrived.&n= bsp; I've made a few pair of Gillies and they are extremely simple t= o make and thick cowhide can be used because there is no seam. YMHOS
Mike Powell  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Brandl
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:47 AM=
To: hist_text@lists.xmissio= n.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-Lis= t: knife
 
thanks, finally got ahold of his wife, gi= rlfriend, mistress, etc. of
course tom is at a show, but at least I le= ft a message for him.
thanks for all your help.

another questio= n, a friend of mine wants to get into the highlander
dress, he saids h= e wants high top moccasins to go with his kilt. I
showed him the highl= ander sketchbook and pointed out that I do not
believe high top,(tandy= type) was worn by highlanders, but if there
were not wearing brogans = or some other type of leather shoe, it was
eastern style moccasins wit= h leggins or hose/socks. where can he find
more reference and supplies= for highlander costume?

I am considering getting into the costume= also, just love the idea of
hanging free under a skirt!
joe
--<= BR>Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us= about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-24= 40
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!
----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/= ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

=
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1AB5F.1C8C8AE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Scottish Shoes Date: 02 Feb 2002 08:22:16 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3095482936_124388_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mike, Sorry about jumping in, try this web site they have it all. www.houston-highlandwear.co.uk Ole ---------- Joe, The actual appropriate foot covering would be a pair of Gillie Brogues if your fried wants to go total Scottish. Smoke and Fire Co. P.O. Box 166 Grand Rapids, OH 43522 makes a pattern for such. If not, then most Scotsmen would have, of course, adopted the footwear here in the Americas when they arrived. I've made a few pair of Gillies and they are extremely simple to make and thick cowhide can be used because there is no seam. YMHOS Mike Powell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:47 AM thanks, finally got ahold of his wife, girlfriend, mistress, etc. of course tom is at a show, but at least I left a message for him. thanks for all your help. another question, a friend of mine wants to get into the highlander dress, he saids he wants high top moccasins to go with his kilt. I showed him the highlander sketchbook and pointed out that I do not believe high top,(tandy type) was worn by highlanders, but if there were not wearing brogans or some other type of leather shoe, it was eastern style moccasins with leggins or hose/socks. where can he find more reference and supplies for highlander costume? I am considering getting into the costume also, just love the idea of hanging free under a skirt! joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --MS_Mac_OE_3095482936_124388_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Re: Scottish Shoes Mike,
Sorry about jumping in, try this web site they have it all.
www.houston-highlandwear.co.uk
Ole
----------


Joe,
 
The actual appropriate foot covering would be a pair of Gillie Brogues if y= our fried wants to go total Scottish.  Smoke and Fire Co.  P.O. Bo= x 166  Grand Rapids, OH  43522  makes a pattern for such. &nb= sp;If not, then most Scotsmen would have, of course, adopted the  footw= ear here in the Americas when they arrived.  I've made a few pair of Gi= llies and they are extremely simple to make and thick cowhide can be used be= cause there is no seam.
 
YMHOS
 
Mike Powell  
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
 
From: Joe Brandl
 
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:47 AM
 
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
 
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knife
 
 
thanks, finally got ahold of his wife, girlfriend, mistress, etc. of
course tom is at a show, but at least I left a message for him.
thanks for all your help.

another question, a friend of mine wants to get into the highlander
dress, he saids he wants high top moccasins to go with his kilt. I
showed him the highlander sketchbook and pointed out that I do not
believe high top,(tandy type) was worn by highlanders, but if there
were not wearing brogans or some other type of leather shoe, it was
eastern style moccasins with leggins or hose/socks. where can he find
more reference and supplies for highlander costume?

I am considering getting into the costume also, just love the idea of
hanging free under a skirt!
joe
--
Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-4= 55-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drud= y/mtman/maillist.html


Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com <http://explorer.msn.com>

--MS_Mac_OE_3095482936_124388_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "p monty" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife Date: 02 Feb 2002 20:29:44 -0700 I'm curious about Colleen's 77th Mongomerie Highlanders. Fill me in? Thanks, Paul Montgomery #1801 >From: >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:51:07 -0700 > >Oh....I love 'The Scotsman's Kilt' song!!! Nothing like following a >regiment of kilts and watching that swaying!!!!! > >Colleen >77th Montgomerie Highlanders > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Linda Holley >To: >Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:32 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Highland garb - was Knife > > > > I guess you have tied on a "Blue Ribbon" or two? > > > > Linda Holley... Clan MacPherson > > > > Addison Miller wrote: > > > > > LOL!!! Linda, yer a dirty ol' Lass, ye are!!! hehe... ain't it >fun??? >I > > > love wearing me kilt... ladies frequently come up to me when I wear it >and > > > "grope" me to see it I am regimental... drives my wife nuts!!! LOL!! I >kinda > > > like it... > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ad > > > > > > PS: Missed you at Alafia this year.... :(( > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: MtMan-List: A Nice Website (bp guns) Date: 03 Feb 2002 07:46:06 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1AC86.D63C5D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings I'm passing on a website that showcases the guns & other works of T.A. = Brown. He's got some truly beautiful works of art gracing his website. He's at www.CustomMuzzleloaderWorks.com Regards from snowy Idaho Lee Newbill ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1AC86.D63C5D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings
 
I'm passing on a website that showcases = the guns=20 & other works of T.A. Brown.  He's got some truly beautiful = works of=20 art gracing his website.
 
He's at www.CustomMuzzleloaderWor= ks.com
 
Regards from snowy Idaho
 
Lee Newbill
 
------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1AC86.D63C5D80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Nice Website (bp guns) Date: 03 Feb 2002 14:21:01 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1ACBE.01D53C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "THE GREAT AMERICAN BUFFALO RAFFLE" has moved to a new site at: = http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/amm.html=20 =20 Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771" ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1ACBE.01D53C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"THE = GREAT AMERICAN=20 BUFFALO RAFFLE" has moved to a new site at:=20 http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/amm.html =

Buck Conner
"Eternal=20 vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson = 1771"
 
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1ACBE.01D53C00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: MtMan-List: "AMM Buffalo Raffle" page has moved. Date: 03 Feb 2002 14:26:20 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1ACBE.BFBEC9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE" HAS MOVED TO: = http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/amm.html Take care, Buck Conner Visit this site, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain Men's) = "Great Buffalo Raffle". ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ ~ ~=20 ~ AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/amm.html ~ ~ see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ ~ ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1ACBE.BFBEC9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE" HAS MOVED TO: http://amm_raffle.tripod.com/amm.html
Take care,
Buck Conner
Visit this site, find out about the [AMM]  (American = Mountain=20 Men's) "Great
Buffalo Raffle".
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ ~ ~ ~=20 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~
~  AMM "The Great Buffalo = Raffle":=20 http://amm_raffle.trip= od.com/amm.html
~
~ =20 see the AMM site for more supporters of this event.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ ~ ~ ~=20 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~=20 ~
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1ACBE.BFBEC9C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Usner Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver catch Date: 05 Feb 2002 21:58:43 -0500 I was wondering about some facts. When was the height of the beaver trade? My guess is it was about 1830-1840. How many beaver could a trapper get in an average day or week? How many could they a trapper get by the 1860s? I know that the supply of beaver was falling off. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch Date: 05 Feb 2002 22:27:24 -0500 David, I'm no expert, but I would append your question by asking when was the height of the beaver trade WHERE? Logic being that the farther east and south, the earlier the demise. There's folks (not many) right now still trapping beaver and getting paid (not much) but if I had to pick a time for peak volume RMFT, I guess I would pick 1815-1825. After that some areas were probably trapped out, expecially considering that our modern concept of managing renewable resources was likely foreign to those trappers. Tom David Usner wrote: > > I was wondering about some facts. > > When was the height of the beaver trade? My guess is it was about 1830-1840. > > How many beaver could a trapper get in an average day or week? > > How many could they a trapper get by the 1860s? I know that the supply of > beaver was falling off. > > David > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch Date: 05 Feb 2002 20:21:55 -0800 The Snake River country was trapped out fairly early, as a matter of policy. After the Convention of 1818, when Great Britain and the United States agreed to jointly occupy Oregon, Alexander Ross as the point man for the Hudson's Bay Company recognized the wave of the future when Jedediah Smith's party of six trappers (who had taken some 900 plews on the Green, Bear and Blackfoot rivers between the breakup of rendezvous and "early autumn") showed up at his door. After showing Smith's party courtesy for having escorted Pierre Tevanitagon and a small band of Iroquois trappers who had been plundered by the Shoshones, back to Flathead Post, Ross found out that Smith was not keen on leaving. On the fringes of Blackfoot country, at the onset of winter, Smith and his party stayed with Ross' brigade. When Ross put his head together with HBC Governor George Simpson and Chief Factor John McLoughlin, the plan that was formed to blunt the intrusion of further Americans into this rich HBC skin farm was to create a "beaver desert" south and east of the Columbia River. This was started about November of '24 by replacing Alexander Ross with Peter Skene Ogden. For the winter of '24-'25, Ogden headed out to trap out the Snake River country with a party of about sixty trappers, and Jed Smith et. al. in tow. So you could say that the demise was started in the north and west. B'st'rd tom roberts wrote: > > David, > > I'm no expert, but I would append your question by > asking when was the height of the beaver trade WHERE? > Logic being that the farther east and south, the > earlier the demise. There's folks (not many) right now still > trapping beaver and getting paid (not much) but if I had to > pick a time for peak volume RMFT, I guess I would pick 1815-1825. > After that some areas were probably trapped out, expecially > considering that our modern concept of managing renewable resources > was likely foreign to those trappers. > > Tom > > David Usner wrote: > > > > I was wondering about some facts. > > > > When was the height of the beaver trade? My guess is it was about 1830-1840. > > > > How many beaver could a trapper get in an average day or week? > > > > How many could they a trapper get by the 1860s? I know that the supply of > > beaver was falling off. > > > > David > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch Date: 05 Feb 2002 23:27:32 EST In a message dated 2/5/02 8:16:00 PM, usnerd@bigplanet.com writes: <> The supply was petering out by the mid 1830s. Osborn Russell in his journal writes from a spot north of Great Salt Lake in the late 1830s that the buffalo are gone (from there) and the beaver are all gone. It is time for the white man to get out of this country. A trapper might carry 5-6 - sometimes 8 traps. He had to not only set and recover them but also skin and tend them. Beaver do NOT skin as easily as a bunny. Limited to the number of traps and the fact he did not always fill out and some days got zero - you can do your own cost accounting. Remembering that beaver trapping was done in the fall and spring only - trappers roamed the summer to and from rendezvous, and they holed up in w inter, seeking out a spot with game, shelter (some constructed cabins and such), wood and - VERY important - feed for their animals. Often they bunched up with other trappers at this time - frequently friendly Indians were part of the camp. American Fur kept harvesting past 1850 as did Hudson's Bay. They did a lot of business trading with the Indians (as they did from the beginning) rather than the trapper system of a couple of decades earlier. The bottom had fallen out of the beaver market by 1840, any way because of the new fashion of silk hats. Much of the fur gathered by (Astor's) American Fur company were hides of a dozen varieties other than beaver - same with HBCo.. 1860s - enterprising young men were going after buffalo hides. This lasted for nearly a quarter of a century. The harvest went mostly for lap robes to begin, but ironically many of the bufalo hides were tanned into leather that was then made into belts that transfered water power to the overhead shafts and then to the machines in the early part of the age of the industrial revolution. An example would be Russell's knife factory on the Green River of Mass.. Hope this helps Sincerly Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Usner Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver catch Date: 06 Feb 2002 09:04:07 -0500 I'm most interested in trapping in Colorado and surrounding area. Is it possible to calculate the approx catch per week or month during 1924-1940. Would it be safe to say that a single trapper could trap 20 beaver a month? 40 beaver a month? Could two or three trappers catch 100 beaver a month? Was the demise a result of premeditated calculation on the part of HBC or was it a result of the rise in demand and the rise in the number of men willing and able to venture into the territory. I know that Kit Carson would leave his home in Taos and trap up north and west of there. I think he trapped the Snake River as well. He must have gotten into the trade just at the beginning of the end. Things seemed to be changing quickly in the part of the country. Dave -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of JW Stephens Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 11:22 PM The Snake River country was trapped out fairly early, as a matter of policy. After the Convention of 1818, when Great Britain and the United States agreed to jointly occupy Oregon, Alexander Ross as the point man for the Hudson's Bay Company recognized the wave of the future when Jedediah Smith's party of six trappers (who had taken some 900 plews on the Green, Bear and Blackfoot rivers between the breakup of rendezvous and "early autumn") showed up at his door. After showing Smith's party courtesy for having escorted Pierre Tevanitagon and a small band of Iroquois trappers who had been plundered by the Shoshones, back to Flathead Post, Ross found out that Smith was not keen on leaving. On the fringes of Blackfoot country, at the onset of winter, Smith and his party stayed with Ross' brigade. When Ross put his head together with HBC Governor George Simpson and Chief Factor John McLoughlin, the plan that was formed to blunt the intrusion of further Americans into this rich HBC skin farm was to create a "beaver desert" south and east of the Columbia River. This was started about November of '24 by replacing Alexander Ross with Peter Skene Ogden. For the winter of '24-'25, Ogden headed out to trap out the Snake River country with a party of about sixty trappers, and Jed Smith et. al. in tow. So you could say that the demise was started in the north and west. B'st'rd tom roberts wrote: > > David, > > I'm no expert, but I would append your question by > asking when was the height of the beaver trade WHERE? > Logic being that the farther east and south, the > earlier the demise. There's folks (not many) right now still > trapping beaver and getting paid (not much) but if I had to > pick a time for peak volume RMFT, I guess I would pick 1815-1825. > After that some areas were probably trapped out, expecially > considering that our modern concept of managing renewable resources > was likely foreign to those trappers. > > Tom > > David Usner wrote: > > > > I was wondering about some facts. > > > > When was the height of the beaver trade? My guess is it was about 1830-1840. > > > > How many beaver could a trapper get in an average day or week? > > > > How many could they a trapper get by the 1860s? I know that the supply of > > beaver was falling off. > > > > David > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Usner Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver catch Date: 06 Feb 2002 09:14:20 -0500 Richard, That's great information. Thanks. You guys are painting an interesting picture. I would thinking that a single trapper could set 6 traps a day and maybe come up with an average of 3 beaver a day. That would mean the yield during the spring and fall could be as much as 90 pelts a month from a single trapper. Does that sound possible? Dave -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of SWzypher@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 11:28 PM In a message dated 2/5/02 8:16:00 PM, usnerd@bigplanet.com writes: <> The supply was petering out by the mid 1830s. Osborn Russell in his journal writes from a spot north of Great Salt Lake in the late 1830s that the buffalo are gone (from there) and the beaver are all gone. It is time for the white man to get out of this country. A trapper might carry 5-6 - sometimes 8 traps. He had to not only set and recover them but also skin and tend them. Beaver do NOT skin as easily as a bunny. Limited to the number of traps and the fact he did not always fill out and some days got zero - you can do your own cost accounting. Remembering that beaver trapping was done in the fall and spring only - trappers roamed the summer to and from rendezvous, and they holed up in w inter, seeking out a spot with game, shelter (some constructed cabins and such), wood and - VERY important - feed for their animals. Often they bunched up with other trappers at this time - frequently friendly Indians were part of the camp. American Fur kept harvesting past 1850 as did Hudson's Bay. They did a lot of business trading with the Indians (as they did from the beginning) rather than the trapper system of a couple of decades earlier. The bottom had fallen out of the beaver market by 1840, any way because of the new fashion of silk hats. Much of the fur gathered by (Astor's) American Fur company were hides of a dozen varieties other than beaver - same with HBCo.. 1860s - enterprising young men were going after buffalo hides. This lasted for nearly a quarter of a century. The harvest went mostly for lap robes to begin, but ironically many of the bufalo hides were tanned into leather that was then made into belts that transfered water power to the overhead shafts and then to the machines in the early part of the age of the industrial revolution. An example would be Russell's knife factory on the Green River of Mass.. Hope this helps Sincerly Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: MtMan-List: Northwest Journal--new & improved! Date: 06 Feb 2002 09:25:16 -0700 We've just concluded extensive renovations to the Northwest Journal website www.northwestjournal.ca, adding 42 (yes, forty-two) articles about the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821. Most of these articles were originally published in the paper version of Northwest Journal between 1992 and 1998, however new articles are being added. We are also launching a new mailing list, h-voyageur, focusing on the fur trade of the voyageur era (c. 1770-1830). To subscribe to the new list, go to www.groups.yahoo.com/group/h-voyageur/join and follow the instructions. Or you can join by sending a blank e-mail to h-voyageur-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. (We're just beginning a chapter-by-chapter discussion of the history behind the novel Broken Blade, by William Durbin.) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred Editor, Northwest Journal (online edition) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch Date: 06 Feb 2002 12:26:14 -0500 any of you guys know haw many beaver pelts will go into a bundle of pelts---that was the way the beaver skins was transported and packed out---put in a press and bundeled---in a lot of references there say that a average season would give you from 10 to 20 bundels---dont know if that is each man or for the party but if you estimate how many pelts are in a bundel you will get an idea of how many they cought---6 traps if you ran them twice a day will get you a lot more beaver than you realize---in a 30 plus day period---a single dam or colony can easily have 50 plus beavers in it and the beaver have 3 to 5 kits a year so it gets overstocked quite easily in a few years look at the numbers---might be suprizeing kina like a penny a day and double it ever day for 30 days--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch Date: 06 Feb 2002 12:15:27 -0500 dick--- I beaver and muskrat trapping back in the mid 50's and i trapped using about 50 plus traps only made 5 or 10 beaver sets around 4 fairly large lakes and the streams that fed them---I ran my traps in the morning and the afternoon and a good productive set usually had something in it in the morning and the afternoon---I used drownding sets in a lot of cases and in one big beaver colony/lake I only had 5 traps set and in the 30 days of trapping season I got over 60 beaver out of that one area dont believe i put a dint in the beavers there---in about the 70's they the state trapper tried poison and that killed most of them off---as long as the sets had castorium or bait on them i seldom did not have a beaver or a muskrat in them---and there was only 5 sets on that area---I ran a lot of mink traps and fox traps also those were not as productive as the water sets in the area i lived---I have pictures of my catch that year and it wasnt too bad---got over 100 mink---60 plus foxes plus the beaver and the muskrat---had over 350 muskrat---i spent a lot of time skinning and streaching---had a friend with a hog farm nearby and he took all the carcuses for the hogs that relly helped---that one year was probably my most productive year---but i made more money trapping preditors the next few years but had to buy different and bigger trapps for that---the beaver traps worked well on bobcat and ky-dogs---which are crosses--- there was a $25 bounty on dogs and bobcat at that time paid by the state--only ran the preditor traps once a day and it was a hell of a lot of walking and travel involved---they still tell stories of me having 15 to 20 preditors hanging on the fence waiting for the state rep to mark and pay the bounty he came to the house about once a week--- the carcus had to be whole to collect and not skinned---I skinned them after i collected from him YMHOS "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch Date: 06 Feb 2002 19:45:02 EST Great story Hawk,loved reading it I almost fell out my chair laughing so hard then you talked about the fance. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 06 Feb 2002 18:14:27 -0800 Gentleman(and those with beaver fever, Called my brother Eric last night to clue me in on beaver trapping. Wel, I herd him say tha breedin seesun iz near, and dose castor critters wood be peeping thar head bove tha ice soon, Ha, Ha! I mean I knew mountain men had their mind on beaver most of the time. So here goes Eric's questions and comments. First, he said one year he caught 17 beaver and 2 non-target animals(racoons) in 3 days. He even pointed out to me he used a set that an Indian trapper had taught him; that he beleives goes back to the French . The Indian having the lineage of the French, he figured it was an old trapping technique. Anyway, Eric went on about this website that some 'rendezvouer' evidently put into being. The document pointed out the weight of the trap drowned the beaver, he,he,he, ha, ha. Now, Eric says that somebody really pulled a fast one on that novice/tenderfoot. He said when he was learning, he had an old castor drag concrete blocks and tractor parts back to the bank and wring out/pull out of the jaws. Eric said these weights on his drown wire were 25-30 lbs in his infancy trapping days. Of course, Eric learned to use the heaviest masonry blocks or sandbags full of dirt, rocks, and sand; when using the drown wire. He caught a 83 pounder one year; and claims there are 100 lb. chiseltooths out there in colonies beyond the roads. Eric said if the weight of the trap drowned an adult(momma or dad), it had to be at least 45 lbs. Imagine one mule weighted down by only 3-4 heavy traps! He went on to say spring trapping was the easiest, as if they are not trapwise he could sometimes trap the entire colony out in 2-3 days. After 3 days, he said if you caught any, you seldom caught another unless in the blind, in their runs. Now, Eric would like to know how many of you have honestly caught beaver using TANGLESTAKES or a DROWNING(?not sure if I understand this correctly???)POLE? He also asked how trappers of yesterday caught beaver in silt/soft mud by using a pole? The type found in marsh beaver ponds that pull one's waders off like quck-mud. And what did they do on bedrock bottom streams and gravel bed streams to anchor their trap? Drive a stake??? See, some women take good notes, Sue Raven P.S. I think I smell a trap being set for me, he,he,he,he,. . . he. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Trade Gun for Sale Date: 06 Feb 2002 21:36:55 -0700 Hello the Camp, Shawn Webster sent me the message below. He's got a trade gun for sale, it sounds like a dandy. If he gunsmiths like he quills, it will be some! Give him a hollar. Allen X-From_: swquillwork@yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 13:05:09 2002 Return-Path: X-postini-filters: (S:0.0241515 ) Do you know of anyone that is looking for a nice Indian trade rifle? I just finished one for myself and I really need to sell it. It's a rifled 62 caliber, 35"barreled flintlock with premium curly maple stock. I hand forged all of the parts myself including a nice iron patch box. I'm only asking $900 for it. If you could spread the word I would be greatful. Thanks! Shawn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Jean Date: 06 Feb 2002 22:39:07 -0600 I talked to Laura Jean for a few moments tonight and to her husband for a while longer. Laura is having a tough time right now even though her latest MRI shows the tumor to be smaller than before. Laura and her family need your prayers. She really enjoys getting notes, etc from her "mountain friends" so if you wish to send something you can use this address: Laura Rugel Glise 3841 Prestwick Lane SE Olympia, WA 98501 Once again please don't call. Lanney Ratcliff amm1585@hyperusa.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 06 Feb 2002 21:52:58 -0700 Hello Sue and others interested in trapping, Not sure where your brother is catching beaver, but out here in the Rocky Mountains, the bottoms generally aren't that gooey and will hold a stake. I've been trapping and catching beaver for several years, and have only used the trap to drown them, primitive style. Trick is to set the stake so the beaver can't get back to the bank. Works good, and is fairly well described by a number of the period writers. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 07:38:57 EST I hate to disagree, but if you claim a trap will drown a beaver with its weight alone, you either have caught nothing but kits, or sir you like a lot of the old mountain men, sure embellish the truth. TrapRJoe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: MtMan-List: Message Board Date: 07 Feb 2002 10:34:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C1AFC3.0BC49280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I set up a message board for anyones use.. If you are interested. http://pub59.ezboard.com/bwoodsrunnersandfreinds D Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American = Mountain Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". =20 AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": = http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html Double Edge forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ =20 see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C1AFC3.0BC49280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I set up a message board for anyones = use.. If you=20 are interested.
 
http://pub59.ez= board.com/bwoodsrunnersandfreinds
 
D
Visit one or all these sites, find out = about the=20 [AMM]  (American Mountain Men's) "Great Buffalo=20 Raffle".
 
 
AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripo= d.com/AMM-hunt.html
Double=20 Edge forge  http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
Buck's=20 Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/<= BR>Historical=20 Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/Historical=20 Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/
 see the=20 AMM site for more supporters of this = event.
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C1AFC3.0BC49280-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 09:52:25 -0700 TrapRJoe, Heck, it's ok to disagree. I'm sure the 65 pound beaver that drowned on the Bridger #5 disagreed as well. And lots of his 45-50 brothers and sisters. It worked in the old days, it works now. Allen At 07:38 AM 2/7/2002 EST, you wrote: >I hate to disagree, but if you claim a trap will drown a beaver with its >weight alone, you either have caught nothing but kits, or sir you like a lot >of the old mountain men, sure embellish the truth. > > TrapRJoe > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: WAS Beaver catch Date: 07 Feb 2002 15:08:24 EST In a message dated 2/6/02 1:01:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, hawknest4@juno.com writes: << I got over 60 beaver out of that one area dont believe i put a dint in the beavers there-- >> If you are good, when you die you go to beaver streams and ponds like that! And the beaver skin easy as rabbits with no fleshing required. I am curious about your method of fleshing. What was it, if I may ask? Fleshing beaver is about as much fun as hitting your toe with a hammer...but a neccessary task. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 15:14:49 EST In a message dated 2/7/02 7:39:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: << but if you claim a trap will drown a beaver with its weight alone, you either have caught nothing but kits, or sir you like a lot of the old mountain men, sure embellish the truth. >> I would have to disagree with this. Only way a trap will drown a beaver is if it on a sliding drowning lock of some type that prevents the beaver from surfacing after it s initial reflexive dive. Beaver are pretty danged buoyant. a trap is nothing for them to haul around. TraprJon, if you are out there what are your thoughts on the issue? -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 15:17:17 EST In a message dated 2/7/02 11:49:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, allenhall@srv.net writes: << I'm sure the 65 pound beaver that drowned on the Bridger #5 disagreed as well. >> As someone who is impartial and does not mind arbitrating I have a grand solution. All of you who claim to have used a trap to drown a beaver with its own weight should post me those traps post haste (season is nearly nigh!!) so that I can conduct an objective and impartial study of your techniques on the streams around here!!! Three traps from each trapper should do fine (Bridger, BMI and even DUKE should do fine) -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 16:19:36 -0500 Ho the List, As a veteran trapper, State Certified Trapper Education Instructor, and professional nuisance trapper, I fully agree with C. Kent, a trap alone does not drown a beaver. I have witnessed a 55# beaver swim for a time with 40#'s of weight attached to a #5 Bridger double long spring trap!!! The best way to drown a beaver with a foot hold trap is to use a slide wire (preferably staked down solid) and drowning lock. The next best method is to use a properly placed tangle stick so the beaver swims around it and the trap steak and can't get back to land, tires and drowns. If we want to be technical, beavers don't drown. They form a mucus plug in their throats so water can't pass through and they asphyxiate. As the need to get air gets critical, the beaver experiences a moment of frantic increased activity in trying to reach the surface to breath (with a human this would be panic), then calms down reducing activity to a minimum before asphyxiation (with a human this is a state of euphoria caused by chemicals in the brain being released due to lack of oxygen), then death. This fact is not just my opinion, but the result of scientific studies done on specific animals including beaver for the purpose of determining the amount of time it takes a given critter to die in a drowning set and to document that the method is humane. That's how my stick floats. Sincerely, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@mediaone.net "It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden, It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The Meeting!!!" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 3:14 PM > In a message dated 2/7/02 7:39:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, TrapRJoe@aol.com > writes: > > << but if you claim a trap will drown a beaver with its > weight alone, you either have caught nothing but kits, or sir you like a lot > of the old mountain men, sure embellish the truth. >> > I would have to disagree with this. Only way a trap will drown a beaver is > if it on a sliding drowning lock of some type that prevents the beaver from > surfacing after it s initial reflexive dive. Beaver are pretty danged > buoyant. a trap is nothing for them to haul around. TraprJon, if you are > out there what are your thoughts on the issue? > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 15:54:49 -0700 We always used conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and they sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is low, opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but always tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was run in the morning, you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. My dad always said the natural instincts of a beaver when in trouble was to go deep. If so, that helps when you are trying to drown them. Some animals will chew off their legs to get out of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do it. mike. HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/7/02 11:49:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, > allenhall@srv.net writes: > > << I'm sure the 65 pound beaver that drowned on the > Bridger #5 disagreed as well. >> > As someone who is impartial and does not mind arbitrating I have a grand > solution. > > All of you who claim to have used a trap to drown a beaver with its own > weight should post me those traps post haste (season is nearly nigh!!) so > that I can conduct an objective and impartial study of your techniques on the > streams around here!!! Three traps from each trapper should do fine > (Bridger, BMI and even DUKE should do fine) > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 18:18:52 EST In a message dated 2/7/02 2:57:22 PM, amm1616@earthlink.net writes: << We always used conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and they sink like a rock >> I've done my best catching beavers wid snares.... We'd chop a hole through the ice kinda close to the lodge, and put down a stick of willow or birch, then put in 4 snares right at the bottom edge of the ice. As the beaver would swim around gnawing at the fresh stick, they'd git caught and drown. Could trap all winter if you kept the hole covered with pine boughs and snow... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 18:40:05 EST Here it my two cents on trapping beaver .I use #4 victor long spring with about a eight foot chain. I will place the trap near shore then I will run the chain out into the water about five are six feet away from the trap. take the o ring run pole through it and drive it into the stream bottom. Next ran three are four stakes around the pole .As the beaver is caught he swims for deeper water and ends up going arond the stakes with the chain the chain gets wrapped around the stakes. and drowns. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 19:43:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C1B00F.BDC84020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, First, I don't know who told you that some animals chew their legs = off to get out of traps, but it is about time for that rumor to die, = because it is a fabrication of the animal rights extremist Waco's who = would also have you believe that a breakfast of bacon, eggs and milk is = "the breakfast of cruelty"!!! (Quote from The Humane Society of The = United States) Or that it is ok to blow up a research facility that = does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they show such as = the fawn (still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on it's leg, was = killed by the trap!!! The truth behind the myth is that animals caught = in a trap fight the trap in different ways. 3 animals are chewers, = skunk porcupines and raccoons. They do NOT (cannot) reason that by = chewing their leg off they can go free!!! While K-9's tug and pull at = the trap, and otters bite everything in it's path (trees bushes, sticks, = etc) the 3 chewers fight the trap by biting the trap and trying to chew = the trap off of them. In the process their caught foot goes numb and = they can no longer feel it. While chewing at the trap they will bite = and chew the numb part of the foot that is under the trap jaws because = they can't feel it!!! If there isn't much foot under the jaws, the = critter can pull out of the trap. They do NOT chew their foot anywhere = above the trap jaws where they still have blood circulation and feeling. = The fix for catching these chewers is to use a smaller trap that isn't = big enough for them to get their snout under the jaw to chew in the = first place (size 1.5 or smaller trap - #1 is better), check sets early = in the morning to remove critters before they have a chance to do much = damage, or make a drowning set so they die instead of fight the trap. = The longer any live critter is in a trap, the more damage they will do = to themselves in their normal attempts to get away from the thing that = bit their foot!!! Passing on these false rumors causes the general = public to be disgusted at stories like this and to join the move to = outlaw trapping. =20 Second, conibears are the best beaver trap today. I did not address = the conibear trap in my earlier post because, this being a history list, = the conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in the early and = mid 1800's. I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that had gotten out of = the water somewhere away from my set, then entered the water (and my = conibear) from the land side of the trap, then twisted itself up in 10 = feet of wire. I found the beaver floating in the water the next = morning. Conibears, as good as they are, do not always kill = immediately, nor do caught beavers always sink (usually though). =20 Respectfully, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@mediaone.net=20 "It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden,=20 It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The Meeting!!!" ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 PM > We always used conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and > they sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is = low, > opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but = always > tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was run in the = morning, > you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. My = dad > always said the natural instincts of a beaver when in trouble was to = go deep. > If so, that helps when you are trying to drown them. Some animals will = chew > off their legs to get out of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do it. > mike. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C1B00F.BDC84020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
    First, I don't know who = told you=20 that some animals chew their legs off to get out of traps, but it is = about time=20 for that rumor to die, because it is a fabrication of the animal rights=20 extremist Waco's who would also have you believe that a breakfast of = bacon, eggs=20 and milk is "the breakfast of cruelty"!!!  (Quote from The Humane = Society=20 of The United States)  Or that it is ok to blow up a research = facility that=20 does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they show such as = the fawn=20 (still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on it's leg, was killed by = the=20 trap!!!  The truth behind the myth is that animals caught in a trap = fight=20 the trap in different ways.  3 animals are chewers, skunk = porcupines and=20 raccoons.  They do NOT (cannot) reason that by chewing their leg = off they=20 can go free!!!  While K-9's tug and pull at the trap, and otters = bite=20 everything in it's path (trees bushes, sticks, etc) the 3 chewers fight = the trap=20 by biting the trap and trying to chew the trap off of them.  In the = process=20 their caught foot goes numb and they can no longer feel it.  While = chewing=20 at the trap they will bite and chew the numb part of the foot that is = under the=20 trap jaws because they can't feel it!!!  If there isn't much foot = under the=20 jaws, the critter can pull out of the trap.  They do NOT chew their = foot=20 anywhere above the trap jaws where they still have blood circulation and = feeling.  The fix for catching these chewers is to use a smaller = trap that=20 isn't big enough for them to get their snout under the jaw to chew in = the first=20 place (size 1.5 or smaller trap - #1 is better), check sets early in the = morning=20 to remove critters before they have a chance to do much damage, or make = a=20 drowning set so they die instead of fight the trap.  The longer any = live=20 critter is in a trap, the more damage they will do to themselves in = their normal=20 attempts to get away from the thing that bit their foot!!!  Passing = on=20 these false rumors causes the general public to be disgusted at stories = like=20 this and to join the move to outlaw trapping. 
    Second, conibears are the best = beaver trap=20 today.  I did not address the conibear trap in my earlier post = because,=20 this being a history list, the conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky = mountains=20 in the early and mid 1800's.  I caught a 42# beaver this past fall = that had=20 gotten out of the water somewhere away from my set, then entered the = water (and=20 my conibear) from the land side of the trap, then twisted itself up in = 10 feet=20 of wire.  I found the beaver floating in the water the next = morning. =20 Conibears, as good as they are, do not always kill immediately, nor do = caught=20 beavers always sink (usually though). 
Respectfully,
John Enos
TrapRJohn
traprjon@mediaone.net =
"It's God's=20 Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden,
It's Our Responsibility To = Arrange The=20 Meeting!!!"
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 = PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the=20 Brain!

> =     We=20 always used conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and
> = they=20 sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is = low,
>=20 opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but=20 always
> tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was = run in=20 the morning,
> you never know how much struggle they put up before = going=20 under. My dad
> always said the natural instincts of a beaver when = in=20 trouble was to go deep.
> If so, that helps when you are trying to = drown=20 them. Some animals will chew
> off their legs to get = out of=20 the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do it.
>=20             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;          =20 mike.
 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C1B00F.BDC84020-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 18:07:50 -0700 At 06:40 PM 2/7/2002 EST, you wrote: >Here it my two cents on trapping beaver .I use #4 victor long spring with >about a eight foot chain. I will place the trap near shore then I will run >the chain out into the water about five are six feet away from the trap. take >the o ring run pole through it and drive it into the stream bottom. Next ran >three are four stakes around the pole .As the beaver is caught he swims for >deeper water and ends up going arond the stakes with the chain the chain gets >wrapped around the stakes. and drowns. > >Traphand >Rick Petzoldt >Traphand@aol.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 18:09:41 -0700 At 06:40 PM 2/7/2002 EST, you wrote: >Here it my two cents on trapping beaver .I use #4 victor long spring with >about a eight foot chain. I will place the trap near shore then I will run >the chain out into the water about five are six feet away from the trap. take >the o ring run pole through it and drive it into the stream bottom. Next ran >three are four stakes around the pole .As the beaver is caught he swims for >deeper water and ends up going arond the stakes with the chain the chain gets >wrapped around the stakes. and drowns. > >Traphand >Rick Petzoldt >Traphand@aol.com We've used this method as well, Rick, and it works good. I like the Brigders a little better because their a bit heavier and the jaw spread is greater. I use a little shorter chain, usually 5 to 6 feet. Take care and good trappin! Allen Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 07 Feb 2002 20:23:10 -0700 --------------ABDAF81C0867FE52C0AAA965 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Having caught (and there for seen) muskrats and mink with only three legs I would have to disagree. The numbs of the legs were bare down to the bone. My thoughts on it was that they did wiggle, turn, fight and wear down the caught leg till it was able separate itself from the trap. So maybe I shouldn't of used the term "chewed", but I also have seen raccoon try to do the same thing. Weather you reason that the animal cannot know how to escape by doing this or not is semantics. Many a time I have caught small animals with their legs broken from trying to escape (the only thing holding them was the muscle and some time skin). Why does the trapping community like to blast any negative information? Trapping has its place in society. Some people (especially groups like you mentioned) would love to see it stopped. But no matter how much pressure is put on states and communities to stop it, trapping will continue. I was raised in a trapping family. My kids know the difference between recreational trapping and when it is needed for control. Blasphene? In some circles. I know that here in Colorado it is nice to go to the mountains and see beavers replenished in the natural surroundings. Making the ponds and streams lie it was during and before the fur trade. Just one man's opinion. traprjon@mediaone.net wrote: > Mike, > First, I don't know who told you that some animals chew their legs > off to get out of traps, but it is about time for that rumor to die, > because it is a fabrication of the animal rights extremist Waco's who > would also have you believe that a breakfast of bacon, eggs and milk > is "the breakfast of cruelty"!!! (Quote from The Humane Society of > The United States) Or that it is ok to blow up a research facility > that does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they show > such as the fawn (still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on it's > leg, was killed by the trap!!! The truth behind the myth is that > animals caught in a trap fight the trap in different ways. 3 animals > are chewers, skunk porcupines and raccoons. They do NOT (cannot) > reason that by chewing their leg off they can go free!!! While K-9's > tug and pull at the trap, and otters bite everything in it's path > (trees bushes, sticks, etc) the 3 chewers fight the trap by biting the > trap and trying to chew the trap off of them. In the process their > caught foot goes numb and they can no longer feel it. While chewing > at the trap they will bite and chew the numb part of the foot that is > under the trap jaws because they can't feel it!!! If there isn't much > foot under the jaws, the critter can pull out of the trap. They do > NOT chew their foot anywhere above the trap jaws where they still have > blood circulation and feeling. The fix for catching these chewers is > to use a smaller trap that isn't big enough for them to get their > snout under the jaw to chew in the first place (size 1.5 or smaller > trap - #1 is better), check sets early in the morning to remove > critters before they have a chance to do much damage, or make a > drowning set so they die instead of fight the trap. The longer any > live critter is in a trap, the more damage they will do to themselves > in their normal attempts to get away from the thing that bit their > foot!!! Passing on these false rumors causes the general public to be > disgusted at stories like this and to join the move to outlaw > trapping. Second, conibears are the best beaver trap today. I did > not address the conibear trap in my earlier post because, this being a > history list, the conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in > the early and mid 1800's. I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that > had gotten out of the water somewhere away from my set, then entered > the water (and my conibear) from the land side of the trap, then > twisted itself up in 10 feet of wire. I found the beaver floating in > the water the next morning. Conibears, as good as they are, do not > always kill immediately, nor do caught beavers always sink (usually > though).Respectfully, > John EnosTrapRJohn > traprjon@mediaone.net > "It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden, > It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The Meeting!!!" ----- Original > Message -----From: "Mike Moore" To: > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 > PMSubject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! > We always used > conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and > > they sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is > low, > > opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but > always > > tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was run in the > morning, > > you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. My > dad > > always said the natural instincts of a beaver when in trouble was to > go deep. > > If so, that helps when you are trying to drown them. Some animals > will chew > > off their legs to get out of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do > it. > > mike. --------------ABDAF81C0867FE52C0AAA965 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John,
    Having caught (and there for seen) muskrats and mink with
only three legs I would have to disagree. The numbs of the legs
were bare down to the bone. My thoughts on it was that they did
wiggle, turn, fight and wear down the caught leg till it was able
separate itself from the trap.
    So maybe I shouldn't of used the term "chewed", but I also have
seen raccoon try to do the same thing. Weather you reason that the animal
cannot know how to escape by doing this or not is semantics. Many a time
I have caught small animals with their legs broken from trying to escape
(the only thing holding them was the muscle and some time skin). Why does
the trapping community like to blast any negative information? Trapping has its
place in society. Some people (especially groups like you mentioned) would love
to see it stopped. But no matter how much pressure is put on states and communities
to stop it, trapping will continue. I was raised in a  trapping family. My kids
know the difference between recreational trapping and when it is needed for control.
Blasphene? In some circles. I know that here in Colorado it is nice to go to the mountains
and see beavers replenished in the natural surroundings. Making the ponds and streams
lie it was during and before the fur trade. Just one man's opinion.
 

traprjon@mediaone.net wrote:

Mike,
    First, I don't know who told you that some animals chew their legs off to get out of traps, but it is about time for that rumor to die, because it is a fabrication of the animal rights extremist Waco's who would also have you believe that a breakfast of bacon, eggs and milk is "the breakfast of cruelty"!!!  (Quote from The Humane Society of The United States)  Or that it is ok to blow up a research facility that does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they show such as the fawn (still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on it's leg, was killed by the trap!!!  The truth behind the myth is that animals caught in a trap fight the trap in different ways.  3 animals are chewers, skunk porcupines and raccoons.  They do NOT (cannot) reason that by chewing their leg off they can go free!!!  While K-9's tug and pull at the trap, and otters bite everything in it's path (trees bushes, sticks, etc) the 3 chewers fight the trap by biting the trap and trying to chew the trap off of them.  In the process their caught foot goes numb and they can no longer feel it.  While chewing at the trap they will bite and chew the numb part of the foot that is under the trap jaws because they can't feel it!!!  If there isn't much foot under the jaws, the critter can pull out of the trap.  They do NOT chew their foot anywhere above the trap jaws where they still have blood circulation and feeling.  The fix for catching these chewers is to use a smaller trap that isn't big enough for them to get their snout under the jaw to chew in the first place (size 1.5 or smaller trap - #1 is better), check sets early in the morning to remove critters before they have a chance to do much damage, or make a drowning set so they die instead of fight the trap.  The longer any live critter is in a trap, the more damage they will do to themselves in their normal attempts to get away from the thing that bit their foot!!!  Passing on these false rumors causes the general public to be disgusted at stories like this and to join the move to outlaw trapping.    Second, conibears are the best beaver trap today.  I did not address the conibear trap in my earlier post because, this being a history list, the conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in the early and mid 1800's.  I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that had gotten out of the water somewhere away from my set, then entered the water (and my conibear) from the land side of the trap, then twisted itself up in 10 feet of wire.  I found the beaver floating in the water the next morning.  Conibears, as good as they are, do not always kill immediately, nor do caught beavers always sink (usually though).Respectfully,
John EnosTrapRJohn
traprjon@mediaone.net
"It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden,
It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The Meeting!!!" ----- Original Message -----From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 PMSubject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >     We always used conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and
> they sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is low,
> opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but always
> tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was run in the morning,
> you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. My dad
> always said the natural instincts of a beaver when in trouble was to go deep.
> If so, that helps when you are trying to drown them. Some animals will chew
> off their legs to get out of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do it.
>                                     mike.
--------------ABDAF81C0867FE52C0AAA965-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS Beaver catch Date: 07 Feb 2002 22:26:01 -0500 kent--- we didnt do much fleshing---our hide buyer would pay the same prive fleshed or not---and he prefered that we didnt do it---may have paid us less but still close to market that week---we held hides sometimes hoping to get the price to rise---had 45 days after the season closed to sell the hides or else hold them until the next year and we didnt ever want or do that. "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 08 Feb 2002 01:19:15 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C1B03E.9FD0B280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, We were talking about beavers in the first post, so mink and muskrat = change things a little. These critters don't chew their legs off = either!!! However, I have seen mink chew the caught muskrat's leg off = to be able to carry it away to a safe place for a meal. As a trapper = evolves, and reads and goes to seminars, he learns to adjust traps = before the season for optimum performance, and make sets that do a = minimum if any damage. Properly by today's standards, you should drown = a mink or muskrat, or if that isn't possible, use a 110 conibear to = secure and kill the critter. I have caught a couple of 3 legged mink = with the damage well healed over and fur growing!!! It's impossible to = say how they lost their legs. Besides improper sized and or improperly = adjusted or rigged traps which can break a mink or muskrat's pencil thin = leg bones, there are several predators and natural phenomena that could = be responsible for the missing legs. One of those 3 legged mink in = particular had a particularly fine hide that brought $7.00 more than any = other mink sold that day. =20 The failure of animals to reason is not semantics, it is scientific = fact. They react to their environment, but people reason, animals = don't. There is an excellent article in the February 2002 issue of = Fur-Fish-Game called Deer Physiology 101 on pages 43-45. Though this = article is about deer, the author does a fine job of explaining how and = why animals react due to chemical changes in their bodies such as the = production of adrenaline or epinephrine, but they don't reason, and the = chemical changes are involuntary, meaning the animal has no conscious = control of what is known as the "fight or flight" reaction. =20 As I stated before, animals will fight the trap, it's not normal for = them to be held by something to a small spot. If the trap is rigged = right with enough swivels and or shock springs, etc, and the right trap = is used for the situation, injury is kept to a minimum, with the vast = majority of catches experiencing no injury at all. It's not that I am = "blasting negative information", rather I am trying to correct a false = impression/statement with the truth. When I was a beginning trapper, I = made some of the mistakes that caused wringouts and broken limbs, etc. = Then I learned correct methods and to use the right trap for the critter = and situation. The wringouts virtually stopped when I applied what I = had learned. Now I teach it as a Certified Trapper Education = Instructor. =20 Trapping does have a place in society. It is the primary tool of = furbearer management, like hunting is the primary tool of game = management. However, there are places in this country that have = outlawed trapping. It is a dangerous thing to say "trapping will = continue regardless of public pressure". The public can shut it down, = and have in places. Then when the need arises, the paid officials from = Fish & Game Departments will do the trapping which will cost the = taxpayer, and the "free trapper" will go the way of the buffalo. Don't = believe it??? Make a call to the Massachusetts Fish and Game Dept, or = the New Jersey Fish and Game Department. Ask their Chief biologist what = impact severely restricted or stopped trapping is having in their = states. Maybe there is someone on this list who is from Mass or NJ who = could shed some light. The public, as I understand it, put a stop to = cougar hunting in California. Now cougars eat joggers and kids playing = in their back yards. Fish and Game officials have to hunt down the = offending cougar, after the damage is done, because population control = by hunting is against the law. Public pressure did that. =20 I was a lobbyist for the trappers association years ago (for 4 = years)here in New Hampshire, and did a lot of research and documented = everything I could. I have testified many times at House and Senate = hearings on all subjects to do with trapping and wildlife. I am = responsible for leading the effort that defeated anti-trapping bill's = and supporting pro trapping bills that made it into law. I was also = considered an expert by the House Fish & Game committee, and as such, = received many invitations to committee meetings to provide expert = opinion and information when they were deliberating on a Bill. I = mention these credentials to show that I have done my homework. = Everything I have stated here, I have previously documented, as that is = the only way to be credible in the eyes of Senators and Representatives. = Some of this documentation included the scientific studies mentioned in = my last post. That's how my stick floats. =20 Sincerely and Respectfully, John Enos #1825 TrapRJohn traprjon@mediaone.net=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Moore=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:23 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! John,=20 Having caught (and there for seen) muskrats and mink with=20 only three legs I would have to disagree. The numbs of the legs=20 were bare down to the bone. My thoughts on it was that they did=20 wiggle, turn, fight and wear down the caught leg till it was able=20 separate itself from the trap.=20 So maybe I shouldn't of used the term "chewed", but I also have=20 seen raccoon try to do the same thing. Weather you reason that the = animal=20 cannot know how to escape by doing this or not is semantics. Many a = time=20 I have caught small animals with their legs broken from trying to = escape=20 (the only thing holding them was the muscle and some time skin). Why = does=20 the trapping community like to blast any negative information? = Trapping has its=20 place in society. Some people (especially groups like you mentioned) = would love=20 to see it stopped. But no matter how much pressure is put on states = and communities=20 to stop it, trapping will continue. I was raised in a trapping = family. My kids=20 know the difference between recreational trapping and when it is = needed for control.=20 Blasphene? In some circles. I know that here in Colorado it is nice to = go to the mountains=20 and see beavers replenished in the natural surroundings. Making the = ponds and streams=20 lie it was during and before the fur trade. Just one man's opinion.=20 =20 traprjon@mediaone.net wrote:=20 Mike,=20 First, I don't know who told you that some animals chew their = legs off to get out of traps, but it is about time for that rumor to = die, because it is a fabrication of the animal rights extremist Waco's = who would also have you believe that a breakfast of bacon, eggs and milk = is "the breakfast of cruelty"!!! (Quote from The Humane Society of The = United States) Or that it is ok to blow up a research facility that = does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they show such as = the fawn (still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on it's leg, was = killed by the trap!!! The truth behind the myth is that animals caught = in a trap fight the trap in different ways. 3 animals are chewers, = skunk porcupines and raccoons. They do NOT (cannot) reason that by = chewing their leg off they can go free!!! While K-9's tug and pull at = the trap, and otters bite everything in it's path (trees bushes, sticks, = etc) the 3 chewers fight the trap by biting the trap and trying to chew = the trap off of them. In the process their caught foot goes numb and = they can no longer feel it. While chewing at the trap they will bite = and chew the numb part of the foot that is under the trap jaws because = they can't feel it!!! If there isn't much foot under the jaws, the = critter can pull out of the trap. They do NOT chew their foot anywhere = above the trap jaws where they still have blood circulation and feeling. = The fix for catching these chewers is to use a smaller trap that isn't = big enough for them to get their snout under the jaw to chew in the = first place (size 1.5 or smaller trap - #1 is better), check sets early = in the morning to remove critters before they have a chance to do much = damage, or make a drowning set so they die instead of fight the trap. = The longer any live critter is in a trap, the more damage they will do = to themselves in their normal attempts to get away from the thing that = bit their foot!!! Passing on these false rumors causes the general = public to be disgusted at stories like this and to join the move to = outlaw trapping. Second, conibears are the best beaver trap today. I = did not address the conibear trap in my earlier post because, this being = a history list, the conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in = the early and mid 1800's. I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that had = gotten out of the water somewhere away from my set, then entered the = water (and my conibear) from the land side of the trap, then twisted = itself up in 10 feet of wire. I found the beaver floating in the water = the next morning. Conibears, as good as they are, do not always kill = immediately, nor do caught beavers always sink (usually = though).Respectfully,=20 John EnosTrapRJohn=20 traprjon@mediaone.net=20 "It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden,=20 It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The Meeting!!!" ----- Original = Message -----From: "Mike Moore" To: = Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 = PMSubject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! > We always used = conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and=20 > they sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water = is low,=20 > opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but = always=20 > tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was run in = the morning,=20 > you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. = My dad=20 > always said the natural instincts of a beaver when in trouble was = to go deep.=20 > If so, that helps when you are trying to drown them. Some animals = will chew=20 > off their legs to get out of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do = it.=20 > mike. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C1B03E.9FD0B280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
    We were talking about beavers in = the first=20 post, so mink and muskrat change things a little.  These critters = don't=20 chew their legs off either!!!  However, I have seen mink chew the = caught=20 muskrat's leg off to be able to carry it away to a safe place for a = meal.  As a trapper evolves, and reads and goes to seminars, he = learns to=20 adjust traps before the season for optimum performance, and make sets = that do a=20 minimum if any damage.  Properly by today's standards, you = should=20 drown a mink or muskrat, or if that isn't possible, use a 110 conibear = to secure=20 and kill the critter.  I have caught a couple of 3 legged mink with = the=20 damage well healed over and fur growing!!!  It's impossible to say = how they=20 lost their legs.  Besides improper sized and or = improperly=20 adjusted or rigged traps which can break a mink or = muskrat's pencil=20 thin leg bones, there are several predators and natural phenomena that = could be=20 responsible for the missing legs.  One of those 3 legged mink in = particular=20 had a particularly fine hide that brought $7.00 more than any other mink = sold=20 that day. 
    The failure of animals to reason = is not=20 semantics, it is scientific fact.  They react to their environment, = but=20 people reason, animals don't.  There is an excellent article in the = February 2002 issue of Fur-Fish-Game called=20 Deer Physiology 101 on pages 43-45.  = Though=20 this article is about deer, the author does a fine job of explaining how = and why=20 animals react due to chemical changes in their bodies such as the = production of=20 adrenaline or epinephrine, but they don't reason, and the chemical = changes are=20 involuntary, meaning the animal has no conscious control of what is = known as the=20 "fight or flight" reaction. 
    As I stated before, animals will = fight the=20 trap, it's not normal for them to be held by something to a small = spot.  If=20 the trap is rigged right with enough swivels and or shock springs, etc, = and the=20 right trap is used for the situation, injury is kept to a minimum, with = the vast=20 majority of catches experiencing no injury at all.  It's not that I = am=20 "blasting negative information", rather I am trying to correct = a false=20 impression/statement with the truth.  When I was = a beginning=20 trapper, I made some of the mistakes that caused wringouts and broken = limbs,=20 etc.  Then I learned correct methods and to use the right trap for = the=20 critter and situation.  The wringouts virtually stopped when I = applied what=20 I had learned.  Now I teach it as a Certified Trapper Education=20 Instructor. 
    Trapping does have a place in=20 society.  It is the primary tool of furbearer management, like = hunting=20 is the primary tool of game management.  However, there are places = in this=20 country that have outlawed trapping.  It is a dangerous thing to = say=20 "trapping will continue regardless of public pressure".  The public = can=20 shut it down, and have in places.  Then when the need arises, the = paid=20 officials from Fish & Game Departments will do the trapping which = will cost=20 the taxpayer, and the "free trapper" will go the way of the = buffalo.  Don't=20 believe it???  Make a call to the Massachusetts Fish and Game Dept, = or the=20 New Jersey Fish and Game Department.  Ask their Chief = biologist what=20 impact severely restricted or stopped trapping is having in their = states. =20 Maybe there is someone on this list who is from Mass or NJ who could = shed some=20 light.  The public, as I understand it, put a stop to cougar = hunting in=20 California.  Now cougars eat joggers and kids playing in their back = yards.  Fish and Game officials have to hunt down the = offending=20 cougar, after the damage is done, because population control by hunting = is=20 against the law.  Public pressure did that. 
    I was a lobbyist for the trappers = association years ago (for 4 years)here in New Hampshire, and did a lot = of=20 research and documented everything I could.  I have testified many = times at=20 House and Senate hearings on all subjects to do with trapping and=20 wildlife.  I am responsible for leading the effort that defeated=20 anti-trapping bill's and supporting pro trapping bills that made it into = law.  I was also considered an expert by the House Fish & Game=20 committee, and as such, received many invitations to committee meetings = to=20 provide expert opinion and information when they were deliberating on a=20 Bill.  I mention these credentials to show that I have done my = homework.  Everything I have stated here, I have previously = documented, as=20 that is the only way to be credible in the eyes of Senators and=20 Representatives.  Some of this documentation included the = scientific=20 studies mentioned in my last post.  That's how my stick = floats. =20
Sincerely and Respectfully,
John Enos = #1825
TrapRJohn
traprjon@mediaone.net =
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike=20 Moore
Sent: Thursday, February 07, = 2002 10:23=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver = on the=20 Brain!

John,
    Having caught (and there = for seen)=20 muskrats and mink with
only three legs I would have to disagree. = The numbs=20 of the legs
were bare down to the bone. My thoughts on it was that = they=20 did
wiggle, turn, fight and wear down the caught leg till it was = able=20
separate itself from the trap.
    So maybe I = shouldn't=20 of used the term "chewed", but I also have
seen raccoon try to do = the same=20 thing. Weather you reason that the animal
cannot know how to = escape by=20 doing this or not is semantics. Many a time
I have caught small = animals=20 with their legs broken from trying to escape
(the only thing = holding them=20 was the muscle and some time skin). Why does
the trapping = community like=20 to blast any negative information? Trapping has its
place in = society. Some=20 people (especially groups like you mentioned) would love
to see it = stopped. But no matter how much pressure is put on states and = communities=20
to stop it, trapping will continue. I was raised in a  = trapping=20 family. My kids
know the difference between recreational trapping = and when=20 it is needed for control.
Blasphene? In some circles. I know that = here in=20 Colorado it is nice to go to the mountains
and see beavers = replenished in=20 the natural surroundings. Making the ponds and streams
lie it was = during=20 and before the fur trade. Just one man's opinion.
 =20

traprjon@mediaone.net wrote:=20

Mike,
    = First, I=20 don't know who told you that some animals chew their legs off to get = out of=20 traps, but it is about time for that rumor to die, because it is a=20 fabrication of the animal rights extremist Waco's who would also = have you=20 believe that a breakfast of bacon, eggs and milk is "the breakfast = of=20 cruelty"!!!  (Quote from The Humane Society of The United = States) =20 Or that it is ok to blow up a research facility that does testing on = animals=20 (PETA), or that the pictures they show such as the fawn (still with = spots)=20 and a #4 double longspring on it's leg, was killed by the = trap!!!  The=20 truth behind the myth is that animals caught in a trap fight the = trap in=20 different ways.  3 animals are chewers, skunk porcupines and=20 raccoons.  They do NOT (cannot) reason that by chewing their = leg off=20 they can go free!!!  While K-9's tug and pull at the trap, and = otters=20 bite everything in it's path (trees bushes, sticks, etc) the 3 = chewers fight=20 the trap by biting the trap and trying to chew the trap off of = them. =20 In the process their caught foot goes numb and they can no longer = feel=20 it.  While chewing at the trap they will bite and chew the numb = part of=20 the foot that is under the trap jaws because they can't feel = it!!!  If=20 there isn't much foot under the jaws, the critter can pull out of = the=20 trap.  They do NOT chew their foot anywhere above the trap jaws = where=20 they still have blood circulation and feeling.  The fix for = catching=20 these chewers is to use a smaller trap that isn't big enough for = them to get=20 their snout under the jaw to chew in the first place (size 1.5 or = smaller=20 trap - #1 is better), check sets early in the morning to remove = critters=20 before they have a chance to do much damage, or make a drowning set = so they=20 die instead of fight the trap.  The longer any live critter is = in a=20 trap, the more damage they will do to themselves in their normal = attempts to=20 get away from the thing that bit their foot!!!  Passing on = these false=20 rumors causes the general public to be disgusted at stories like = this and to=20 join the move to outlaw trapping.   =20 Second, conibears are the best beaver trap today.  I did not = address=20 the conibear trap in my earlier post because, this being a history = list, the=20 conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in the early and = mid=20 1800's.  I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that had gotten = out of=20 the water somewhere away from my set, then entered the water (and my = conibear) from the land side of the trap, then twisted itself up in = 10 feet=20 of wire.  I found the beaver floating in the water the next=20 morning.  Conibears, as good as they are, do not always kill=20 immediately, nor do caught beavers always sink (usually = though).Respectfully,
John = EnosTrapRJohn
traprjon@mediaone.net=20
"It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin = Laden,=20
It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The=20 Meeting!!!" ----- Original Message=20 -----From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 PMSubject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the = Brain! >     We always used conibears on = beaver. It=20 takes the wind out them and
> they = sink like a=20 rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is low, =
> opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg = hold traps,=20 but always
> tag teamed them (used two = at one=20 set). Since the line was run in the morning,
>=20 you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. My=20 dad
> always said the natural = instincts of a=20 beaver when in trouble was to go deep.
> If so,=20 that helps when you are trying to drown them. Some animals = will=20 chew
> off their legs to = get out=20 of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do it. =
>          = ;            =             &= nbsp; =20 mike.
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C1B03E.9FD0B280-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: FW: Re: MtMan-List: cougar Date: 07 Feb 2002 23:20:38 -0800
 

As a Californicator, I can attest to the cougar problem.  After they became protected, the cougar population has exploded.  They are highly adaptable creatures.  They learn to live in suburban areas, and have been known to prey on children, joggers, etc....  Game management is not a concept understood by Peta, etc.... In the area in which I live, it is becoming dangerous to take a walk, jog, or bike ride  outside of the city limits. You might become cat food.  A friend of mine was chased by a cougar while Mtn. bike riding, within a mile of my house. Luckily he was going downhill, and escaped.  More power to the cats, as far as I'm concerned, but they don't need complete protection.  In one well known case a female jogger was killed.  The offending cougar was tracked and killed.  Then it's kits were found.  "The poor orphaned kittens."  A lot of money came pouring in to 'save' the kittens.  Guess how much money was donated to help the dead womans children?  Virtually none.  That's the way it is here on the 'Left' coast.....sheeesh.....     Just my opinion.    hardtack 
 
The public, as I understand it, put a stop to cougar hunting in California.  Now cougars eat joggers and kids playing in their back yards.  Fish and Game officials have to hunt down the offending cougar, after the damage is done, because population control by hunting is against the law.  Public pressure did that
John Enos #1825
--- Randal Bublitz
we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,
we are Borrowing it from our Children
 

 
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 08 Feb 2002 08:05:17 EST You folks need to listen to John Enos, I am also a State Certified Trapping Instructor, and have and am serving on the Board of Directors of my State trapping Assn. and a Life Member of the National Trappers Assn. Mr. Enos speaks the truth here in his writings. TrapRjoe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 08 Feb 2002 10:47:57 -0500 well said trapperjohn "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Making Mocs Date: 08 Feb 2002 16:15:19 -0700 I have a question about making mocs. I am having problems getting the heel right. I first sewed them up too loose so the moc did not fit right. It was surprise to me that the biggest problem with loose mocs is that they slide forward Then I frog sewed/unsewed (Rip it, rip it). I tried to shape the heel like it shows in the Book of Buckskin III. It ended up fitting real nice but it left the horizontal seam under the heel of my foot. This is uncomfortable as well as leaving threads exposed to excess wear. How wide is best to make the heel seam, ie how high up from the bottom to cut it? And how do you get the moc to fit and be tight without getting that seam to far forward? Guess I should not complain, at least my mocs are getting sewed on instead of my leg. Best of luck Capt. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Making Mocs Date: 08 Feb 2002 16:49:01 -0800 > How wide is best to make the heel seam, ie how high up from the bottom > to cut it? Wynn, Not that I am an expert but I have fought my way through a couple pairs over the years. Assuming your using fairly soft leather (so that is not part of the problem) this is how I approach it. I get the foot part to fit so that the moc closes over the top of my arch in such a manner that my foot will only go in as far as I wish. Then I worry about the back of the moc. Don't sew up the back until your happy with how your foot slides in. With that done, pinch the back of the moc from top down to decide where that back seam goes. Sew down but not all the way down. Leave that back seam a couple finger widths up from the heal but with enough leather sticking back past the heal to fold up and make the connection. Make your "rear" flap cuts just short of heal width and fold that flap up so it wraps the heal and comes up neatly to the bottom of the back seam. Trim the extra material that will be behind that flap so that you form a slight arch from one side to the other starting at where one side of the back flat comes in, over to the other side. You should now be able to fold the flap up, either leave it square or round it to match the cut out arch in the back of the body of the moc and sew it up around the edges with an overhand stitch like you were heming the bottom of a pair of pants. Just keeping the flap from falling down. You could use an in/out stitch but it might be harder, depends on your needle and such. Your choice. And how do you get the moc to fit and be tight without > getting that seam to far forward? Like I said, you just have to get the front part fitting before you try to close up the back seam. remember to do it with socks and etc. if your using them. Hope this helps. Thanks for the well wishes on the leg bobbing job next week. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 08 Feb 2002 17:51:24 -0800 >From: Allen Hall >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:07:50 -0700 > >At 06:40 PM 2/7/2002 EST, you wrote: > >Here it my two cents on trapping beaver .I use #4 victor long spring with > >about a eight foot chain. I will place the trap near shore then I will >run > >the chain out into the water about five are six feet away from the trap. >take > >the o ring run pole through it and drive it into the stream bottom. Next >ran > >three are four stakes around the pole .As the beaver is caught he swims >for > >deeper water and ends up going arond the stakes with the chain the chain >gets > >wrapped around the stakes. and drowns. Rick, I sent your method of trapping beaver using the 'tangle stakes' to my brother, Eric. His reply was: "Sue, that tanglestake idea may have worked some of the time. Yet, if one traps enough places with different terrain they will encounter soft muddy bottoms, and the silt found in old beaver marshes made many beaver generations ago. Again, the bedrock found in many streams makes it impossible to drive a stake. Unless you drilled holes during the summer months using an airtrack drill and drained the area. Also, the gravel bottom rivers will not hold a stake. I can not beleive the bygone trappers just avoided trapping thease areas where the river bottoms were not fit for driving stakes. Most likely the 'float stick' that you mentioned worked like the marks in the soil from a drag on a coyote trap. In that the dry dead wood was attached to a string and tied to the trap chain. That way when the beavers drug off the trap from the stake that pulled out or the different set arangement, the beaver and trap could be found. Hard to fathom anyone beleiving the 'tangle stake' method was the only one utilized. If it was, then evidently mountain men lost more than they caught: which I doubt. Sue, you might tell those boys the drowning wire didn't come into being in trapping till the early 20th century. Most likely during the depression trapping boom or before. As for the conibear #330s; I think they realize how authentic a trap that they are. Sue, you remember all those beaver I snuck in the house to show grandma and guests at times when I knew mother wouldn't chew me out in front of company. Well, it sounds like a few of those aledged trappers are only quoting a book; never actually having trully made an effective beaver set nor laid any steel." Well, Rick that's eric's oppinion. is there any other method that a trapper could use other than tangle stakes and an anchor pole? Interesting, Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 08 Feb 2002 18:11:54 -0800 >From: TrapRJoe@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:38:57 EST > >I hate to disagree, but if you claim a trap will drown a beaver with its >weight alone, you either have caught nothing but kits, or sir you like a >lot >of the old mountain men, sure embellish the truth. Trapper Joe, Eric, my brother wholely agrees with you. But based upon some of the documents one wonders what actual methods were used. Like a lot of things; when beaver were no longer in vogue the art died out. Many of the methods were either never written down or told to anyone except those in the trade. Why would a man seek more competition or those whom would catch his future beaver. The following is from Mrs. Fuller's book: The River of the West Chapter III. 1830. Sublette's camp commenced moving back to the east side of the Rocky Mountains in October. Its course was up Henry's fork of the Snake River, through the North Pass to Missouri Lake, in which rises the Madison fork of the Missouri River. The beaver were very plenty on Henry's fork, and our young trapper had great success in making up his packs; having learned the art of setting his traps very readily. The manner in which the trapper takes his game is as follows:-- He has an ordinary steel trap weighing five pounds, attached to a chain five feet long, with a swivel and ring at the end, which plays round what is called the float, a dry stick of wood, about six feet long. The trapper wades out into the stream, which is shallow, and cuts with his knife a bed for the trap, five or six inches under water. He then takes the float out the whole length of the chain in the direction of the centre of the stream, and drives it into the mud, so fast that the beaver cannot draw it out; at the same time tying the other end by a thong to the bank. A small stick or twig, dipped in musk or castor, serves for bait, and is placed so as to hang directly above the trap, which is now set. The trapper then throws water plentifully over the adjacent bank to conceal any foot prints or scent by which the beaver would be alarmed, and going to some distance wades out of the stream. In setting a trap, several things are to be observed with care:--first, that the trap is firmly fixed, and the proper distance from the bank--for if the beaver can get on shore with the trap, he will cut off his foot to escape: secondly, that the float is of dry wood, for should it not be, the little animal will cut it off at a stroke, and swimming with the trap to the middle of the dam, be drowned by its weight. In the latter case, when the hunter visits his traps in the morning, he is under the necessity of plunging into the water and swimming out to dive for the missing trap, and his game. Should the morning be frosty and chill, as it very frequently is in the mountains, diving for traps is not the pleasantest exercise. In placing the bait, care must be taken to fix it just where the beaver in reaching it will spring the trap. If the bait-stick be placed high, the hind foot of the beaver will be caught: if low, his fore foot. The manner in which the beavers make their dam, and construct their lodge, has long been reckoned among the wonders of the animal creation; and while some observers have claimed for the little creature more sagacity than it really possesses, its instinct is still sufficiently wonderful. It is certainly true that it knows how to keep the water of a stream to a certain level, by means of an obstruction; and that it cuts down trees for the purpose of backing up the water by a dam. It is not true, however, that it can always fell a tree in the direction required for this purpose. The timber about a beaver dam is felled in all directions; but as trees that grow near the water, generally lean towards it, the tree, when cut, takes the proper direction by gravitation alone. The beaver then proceeds to cut up the fallen timber into lengths of about three feet, and to convey them to the spot where the dam is to be situated, securing them in their places by means of mud and stones. The work is commenced when the water is low, and carried on as it rises, until it has attained the desired height. And not only is it made of the requisite height and strength, but its shape is suited exactly to the nature of the stream in which it is built. If the water is sluggish the dam is straight; if rapid and turbulent, the barrier is constructed of a convex form, the better to resist the action of the water. Of course I have always beleived that men have always told women the whole truth. Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Date: 09 Feb 2002 00:38:49 EST I once wrote on article on trapper productivity during the fur trade era. If anyone is interested, I could post it ont the list. Could do it as an attachment, just post it, or make it available to those who request it. Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lwchavis@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Date: 09 Feb 2002 00:54:32 EST --part1_139.91e9823.29961398_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/02 11:39:36 PM Central Standard Time, Casapy123@aol.com writes: > Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > Mr.Hardee, I'd like to see it, however you share it. Larry in MS --part1_139.91e9823.29961398_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/02 11:39:36 PM Central Standard Time, Casapy123@aol.com writes:


Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?)


Mr.Hardee,
I'd like to see it, however you share it.
Larry in MS --part1_139.91e9823.29961398_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Date: 08 Feb 2002 22:38:17 -0800 Jim, could you write it out long hand and bring it by? I'd appreciate it. It seems to me I have seen it? Was it published? T & LR? sure sounds familiar. I heard HBC was fun, if not crowded. Looking forward to seeing you in the Spring. Will you be coming to the mission? Hope so. YFAB hardtack > Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Ch ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Guglielmi Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Date: 09 Feb 2002 04:38:36 -0800 I would be most interested in reading your article. Rick At 12:38 AM 02/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I once wrote on article on trapper productivity during the fur trade era. If >anyone is interested, I could post it ont the list. Could do it as an >attachment, just post it, or make it available to those who request it. >Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > >Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Date: 09 Feb 2002 07:39:20 -0700 > At 12:38 AM 02/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >I once wrote on article on trapper productivity during the fur trade era. If > >anyone is interested, I could post it ont the list. Could do it as an > >attachment, just post it, or make it available to those who request it. > >Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > > > >Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 Please make it available. I have concidered doing a little number crunching myself and I am sure you used the same (Ogdens) or better sources than I would. Mind Yer Hair Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Date: 09 Feb 2002 06:53:02 -0800 (PST) Jim, Add me to the list. grn > Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see > it?) > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Making Mocs Date: 09 Feb 2002 10:02:43 -0500 Wynn, Leather does wierd things of tis own accord sometimes. Best I can tell you is to pound the bejeezus out of the seam with a hammer to flatten it and make it less irritating or save the sole and try again. By the by, it sounds as if you are trying plains style mocs. For a mtn.man portrayal, a center seam moc is just as correct. Many of the folks from back east wore these style mocs and most of the native heritage trappers would have had this style moc if they were making their own to replace what wore out. They are easy to make and have one seam...none of it under your heel!! And you can affix rawhide to the hi-wear areas to prolong their life pretty easily. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Date: 09 Feb 2002 10:38:15 EST Yes add me to that list would love to see it. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 09 Feb 2002 14:01:16 EST What you have written that the book said is for the most part true with the only variances that see would have looked that way to someone who didn't know better. There are several ways to set the trap where he will expire before the trapper gets back to check the trap. The way you write it is very close to one of those ways. Today we have wire and cable that makes the process much surer and easier. TrapRJoe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 09 Feb 2002 15:36:14 -0500 Hi TrapRJoe, Of coarse you are right. There are many ways to set, steak, anchor or utilize drag's on traps today, both on land and in the water. I have used most of them at one time or another depending on the targeted critter, the location and terrain. My correction to what was posted, was long winded enough, without going into specifics on all the methods (making for an even longer answer), and I was trying to keep in mind that we should be talking primarily about period methods of trapping, and much less about modern methods. I think for most every "rule of thumb" you can come up with, there is also an exception to that "rule". Also the law and part of the country you are trapping in makes a difference in what methods you might choose to use. As you know, back in the early 1800's, they had wire, they just didn't use it (or know they could use it???) for trapping like we do today. On their traps, they used chain with a ring on the end, put a sturdy dry (not beaver food) stick through the ring, and as the ring and stick spent time in the water, the wood swelled in the ring making the trap pretty secure to the stick. If a beaver did manage to pull the steak, the trapper walked down the stream looking for his floating stick, hence the term "That's how my stick floats." I have often said that today's trappers are more knowledgeable and efficient trappers than the period trappers were, due to today's greater availability of information, technology, equipment and methods. The old trappers used to walk long distances of waterfront to find just the right place to set a trap. Today, we know that the trapper can pick most any spot, modify it to their liking, and set a productive beaver trap, even in a place a real beaver wouldn't pick. All things considered, what the period trappers had to work with, they did a hell of a job!!! My hat's certainly off to them!!! YMHS, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@mediaone.net "The saddest epitaph which can be carved in memory of a vanished liberty, is that it was lost because its possessors failed to stretch forth a saving hand, while yet there was time." -- Justice George Sutherland, 1938 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 2:01 PM > What you have written that the book said is for the most part true with the > only variances that see would have looked that way to someone who didn't know > better. There are several ways to set the trap where he will expire before > the trapper gets back to check the trap. The way you write it is very close > to one of those ways. Today we have wire and cable that makes the process > much surer and easier. > > TrapRJoe > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits) Date: 09 Feb 2002 15:04:45 -0500 sue--- I had to trap several areas in the ozarks that there was no way to drive a stake in the creek bottom or the lake bottom and what i normally did was tie a drag rock to the chain and place it out into the water and i would tie some light cord on to the rock---when the beaver would get cought they have a tendency to go to deep water and when they do they drag the rock into deeper water and thus drownd then-- when i come by the set and the trap is gone i would grab the light rope and pull the beaver in which was attached to the trap and the drag rock I tried the tangle method a few times but didnt have much success with it in the area i was trapping---the state trapper that trapped for wolves and ki-dogs used a metal 3 prong dragg on a lot of their sets---I didnt like that method but the good part is that they didnt mess up you set but you had to follow the dragg to retreve your trap and the animal in it------with the stakes and tangel method o it gives a indication that there was a trap close and people would steal your traps ---it was kina like a flag on the creek or lake for all to see---I used a lot of castoreum that i bought thru the trappers magazine called fur-fish and game smelly stuff but relly will make a beaver come to your trap I would dip a stick in it and let it hang out over the trap about a couple of feet from the bank---that way the beaver was not on solid ground and yes you can drown a beaver in a couple of feet of water if you do it right--- always wanted to make my own castorium but never knew exactly how and it was made and it was a lot easier to just buy the scent and know it was right------just as with fox and bobcat sents---all those is just basic urine ---the best bate for muskrat i found was just a slice of apple or a ear of corn on a stick near the bank with a trap set next to it---but i did get a few on the castorium for some reason---have been running traps and set one and then went down the way and heard it snap there was so many muskrats in the area that that i trapped that was one reason i ran the traps twice a day---had to make room for more rats in the trap---muskrat are a lot easier to catch than beaver---I got where i could almost eliminate a muskrat colony in a few weeks if i worked it right and that was what the farmers liked because they ruined their dams with the holes---one other method that i liked was that I would make a flote in some of the swampy area and set the trap on the float cought several that way ----also when i was in a area where i ran out of traps i would also make fish hook traps and got a lot of rats in their dens underwater using that method---using a board and fish-hooks and screws---boy would the peta people come unglued if the saw that trick done---the best coon fox and bobcat bate i ever found was just plain old sardeans or the oil out of the cans---for the foxes and bobcats i used dead chickens or turkeys i picked up from the guy who raised them for market I would take a string and just hang then up over the trap---got a few wild house cats with that method also---bet i cought my grandmothers cat a half dozen times---got to a point when she would get cought she would just lay down and wait for me to come a release her---that is the real problem in trapping in or near areas that there are houses and or pets---have released a bunch of them over the ages---usually warned the people in the area i would be trapping so they could keep the pets close to the house and not in the woods---most appreciated the warning and some didnt listen and i cought their dogs and cats---I also had several box traps that i used where there was pets in the area and you couldnt controll them and their movements---they worked good and did not harm the pets when you caught them---cought a couple of minks in box traps but that was just luck---they are hard to catch and you relly have to watch your scent best sets for them were cubby type of sets--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Houses - research Date: 09 Feb 2002 19:34:52 EST With all the knowledge accumulated in the group, I am sure someone can help me with some research: I am trying to piece together a composit of what a fur trade post would be like - west of the Mississippi, American influence and strong Hudsons'Bay influence. In size smaller than Fort Union, but larger than Astoria. Information I am trying to accumulate includes: what activities were housed within the palasades such as Factor's quarters, storehouse, trade house, staff quarters, clerk's accomodations, blacksmith shop, "utilities" shop, root cellar, etc. and assign floor plan dimensions to each. The composite structure that will come from this is to be correct in every way that building codes will allow, realizing the public must be "protected". Similarly the materials inside and the activites will be correct to the period - not Hollywood and not contemporary "wannabes". Right now it is the architecture that is getting the attention to plan for budget. I have as reference good details from Fort Ross, Fort Osage, Fort Michilimakinac, and Fort Ligoner (not geographically correct nor correct in purpose in all cases, but how the problems of structure and needs were met. This is a serious project and any and all input will be very much appreciated. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits) Date: 09 Feb 2002 16:41:34 -0800



>From: hawknest4@juno.com
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits)
>Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:04:45 -0500
>
>sue---
>I had to trap several areas in the ozarks that there was no way to drive
>a stake in the creek bottom or the lake bottom and what i normally did
>was tie a drag rock to the chain and place it out into the water and i
>would tie some light cord on to the rock---when the beaver would get
>cought they have a tendency to go to deep water and when they do they
>drag the rock into deeper water and thus drownd then-- when i come by the
>set and the trap is gone i would grab the light rope and pull the beaver
>in which was attached to the trap and the drag rock I tried the tangle

>method a few times but didnt have much success with it in the area i was

>trapping---

     My brother Eric told me years ago about when he hunted and ran traps in the Blue river(eastern Arizona-south of Alpine), of how he made a simular set.  He told me of a non-target racoon that came into his set.  The rock he had xmas wrapped with double wire was setting on a ledge under water.  The racoon did not pull the heavy rock in the water.  Evidently Rocky knew of his fate if he swam for it.  Eric said it was sure funny seeing this racoon rock and wobble that rock as he approached.  I was so mad at him because he didn't bring it home alive and call me.  He said you can't domesticate grown wild animals that easy.  He said the pull out problem was so bad on coons that he usually drowed them if near water.  He said he caugh ducks, muskrat, and racoons many times on beaver sets.  This method makes good sense for a trapper on limited technology.  Besides, I do not know if a beaver would chew the rope off a rock; but they did have wire a Fort Union prior to 1840.

       I'll e-mail Eric and see if he will share his formulae for making beaver lure or medicine as ye mountaineers say. 

I'm really jealous of you guys having all the fun,
 
Sur Raven

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 09 Feb 2002 16:49:08 -0800



Mr. John Enos,
 
I would like your critique of the quality of the info on this site on beavers.
 
Sue Raven

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: ARTICLE - Trapper Productivity Date: 09 Feb 2002 20:36:52 EST Here is the article in its entirety. It was published in The Trapline, vol. 3, #3, Spring 2000. I hope you find it helpful. Trapper Productivity By Jim Hardee Records of production typically drive success in the workplace, i.e. how many widgets can worker "A" turn out during a given shift? Similarly, determining the production of a fur trapper, in terms of beaver pelts gathered, provides a better understanding of a day's effort in the Shining Mountains. Just how many skins did an average trapper take? In a discussion of trapper productivity, some general assumptions must be made. For example, the length of the trapping season varied from year to year, depending on weather extremes, location, etc. Usually, the season was divided into a Spring and a Fall hunt, each generally lasting for two to three months. Ultimately, general averages must be used for a statistical analysis of trapper productivity. Nathaniel Wyeth estimated a good hunter with average success would take 120 beaver skins in a year, worth in Boston or New York about $1000. (Chittenden. Vol. 1 p.6) This is a nice succinct statement of a trapper's average productivity equating to sixty skins per hunt or about twenty hides per month. Unfortunately, averages are simply that; a mathematical mid-point between a high and low figure. Warren Ferris provides an example of these highs and lows. He reported his 1831 American Fur Company brigade took from forty to seventy beaver per day on Henry's Fork. In the same breath, he described a small party sent to the "Burnt Hole" on the Madison River that returned without success. These numbers would have more meaning had Ferris provided the number of hunters involved. (Ferris. 159-60) Another example of the fickle nature of the business is Thomas Fitzpatrick's report that Benjamin Bonneville's entire fall hunt in 1833 netted only 112 skins. That is less than forty skins per month for a party consisting of 110 men. (Morgan and Harris. P. 255.) Examination of further examples of production can be examined to determine if Wyeth's estimate is on the mark. In 1825, William Ashley arrived in St. Louis with one hundred packs of beaver skins. While it is generally accepted that a pack weighed about ninety to one hundred pounds, Ashley's packs only weighed an average of fifty-two pounds each. This is according to a chart in his account book that lists the first twenty-five packs. Assuming these represent the remainder, each pack contained an average of thirty-two beaver hides making a typical pelt weigh 1.625 pounds. Ashley's one hundred packs with about thirty-two hides in each one then equals 3200 total hides. (Morgan. "Smith" pp. 170 - 173. Morgan "Ashley" pp. 118-29. Russell. p.157.) From Ashley's report, there were one hundred twenty men at the rendezvous. This equates to about twenty-seven hides per man. Yet, most of the men recorded in Ashley's accounts with the trappers at the rendezvous show far more than this average. The seven men under Jedediah Smith, for instance, average ninety-six pounds of beaver each, about one hundred and fifty skins. Smith himself is credited with an amazing six hundred sixty eight pounds of hides. At first glance, this is almost unbelievable, but a closer examination shows he is only credited with $275.00. With beaver at $3.00 per pound, this equals about ninety two hides; a far more reasonable total of pelts. (Morgan "Ashley" pp. 126.) Did none of the Henry-Ashley men attain Wyeth's average? Much of the confusion can be attributed to the difference in assignments of the men in a trapping party. Not all of the men are trappers, some being camp keepers. These latter men generally stayed in camp to watch the stock, prepare the meals, dress the beaver hides and any of the other mundane activities required in the camp. Ferris reports that up to half of the men in the mountains were camp keepers. (Ferris. pp. 361-62.) Historian Hiram M Chittenden, author of "A History of the American Fur Trade of the Far West," says there was usually one camp keeper for every two trappers. (Chittenden. pp. 54-55.) In the brigade of men under Smith alluded to above, Ezekiel Able is only credited with four pounds of beaver while most of his fellows all took vastly more hides. Able must have been such a camp keeper in this brigade. Two other men, Thomas Eddie and William bell, had fifty-six and fifty pounds credited to their respective accounts, while the remaining four men have well over one hundred pounds each. Thomas Galbraith tallies one hundred eighty-nine pounds alone. Eddie and Bell may have been camp keepers too. This would make three out of the eight men making up Smith's brigade assigned to the role of camp keeper, which closely approximates Chittenden's report. Applying these percentages of camp keepers to the one hundred twenty men at the first rendezvous increases the individual trapper's take to forty and fifty-three skins per man; still far short of Wyeth's projection. Wyeth apparently wrote this figure in an attempt to drum up financial backing for a proposed expedition to the mountains. Perhaps he was too optimistic. In 1832, Indian John Dougherty compiled a chart indicating the expenditures, returns and profits in the fur trade for the fifteen-year period from 1815 to 1830. The chart does not stipulate that all the returns are solely from the rocky Mountain trade and does not differentiate between hides obtained through trading and trapping. Using the gross numbers in the chart and applying the same three percentages of camp keepers used above, Dougherty indicates the annual return per man to be one hundred twenty-five, one hundred eighty-six and two hundred fifty skins. Exactly what information Dougherty based his calculations on is unknown, but he appears to anticipate greater returns than Wyeth does. (Chittenden. Vol. 1 p.7) Perhaps looking at specific returns will reveal further information. In 1826, Ashley's rendezvous in Cache Valley netted him one hundred twenty-five packs that brought him $60,000 in St. Louis. This comes out to $480 per pack which, with beaver at $5.00 per pound in St. Louis, closer approximates the readily accepted one hundred pound pack. Records show there were one hundred men at the second rendezvous. Again, applying the same ratios as above, the beaver taken per trapper calculates to seventy-six, one hundred fourteen and one hundred fifty-three hides. Considering camp keepers into the mix of trappers brings the return closer to Wyeth's estimate. (Gowans. p. 31. Wishart. p. 126.) Rendezvous of 1829 netted Smith, Jackson and Sublette 4,076 beaver skins. Robert Newell recalled in his memoirs that there were one hundred seventy-five men present. While this number seems high, if it is accurate, the success rate of the men was quite low. Using the same calculations, the average take becomes fourteen, twenty-one and twenty-eight, respectively for each ratio of trapper to camp keeper. Newell was, himself, a newcomer to the Rockies, having arrived as one of the fifty-five man crew with Sublette's supply caravan. If Newell included these men in his total, they should be subtracted from the total attendees he says were there for they were obviously not involved in procuring the fifty-five packs of beaver turned in at the rendezvous. Reducing the participants to one hundred twenty increases the averages to twenty-one, thirty-one and forty-one. This is still not terrific but is a little better. It is a wonder the company could stay in business. In a letter to Francis Ematinger, Wyeth himself provides information regarding two brigades that can be used in this discussion. The brigade under Andrew Drips and Lucien Fontenelle arrived to the 1832 rendezvous in Pierre's Hole on July 8th. They had one hundred sixty men with them and had obtained fifty-one packs of beaver at one hundred pounds each. If all the men are trappers, the average take is only twenty hides per man. If two out of three are trappers, the take increases to thirty per man. Finally, if half the men are trappers, the take reaches forty skins a piece; still far short of Wyeth's lofty goal for a good trapper. (Wyeth. p. 111) The same letter includes date on the rocky Mountain Fur Company who showed up with fifty-five packs of fur but only fifty-five men. That is one pack of hides per man. If all are trappers, that is a yearly average of about sixty-one beaver each. With only two thirds of the men trapping while one third attend camp, the average raises to about ninety-one per trapper. If half the men are camp keepers then the average finally attains Wyeth's prediction of one hundred twenty pelts per trapper. (Wyeth. p. 111) None of these calculations take into consideration how many hides were traded for with Indians. Also not considered is how many pelts may have been stolen by Indians, lost while crossing a swollen river, spoiled by damage to a hidden cache or in any other way taken but not making it to rendezvous for whatever reason. Any of these factors could effect the average take per trapper. # HIDES HIDES PER MAN YEAR LBS. (1.625 LB/HIDE) # MEN ALL TR. 1/3 C.K. 1/2 C.K. 1825 8829 5433 120 45 68 91 1826 12500 7692 100 77 115 154 1829a 4076 2508 175 14 21 29 1829b 4076 2508 120 21 31 42 1832 (Drips) 5100 3138 160 20 29 39 1832 (RMF) 5500 3385 55 62 91 121 Dougherty's 15 yr. Est. 25,000 200 125 167 250 References: Chittenden, Hiram M. The American Fur Trade of the Far West. Vol 1. Academic Reprints, Stanford, CA, 1954. Dale, Harrison. The Ashley-Smith Explorations and the Discovery of a Central Route to the Pacific. Arthur Clark Co. Glendale, CA. 1941 Ferris, Warren A. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Old West Publishing. Denver, 1983. Gowans, Fred. Rocky Mountain Rendezvous. Gibbs-Smith, Layton, UT. 1985. Harris, Eleanor T. and Morgan, Dale L. The Rocky Mountain Journals of William Marshall Anderson. Huntington Library, San Marino, CA. 1967. Morgan, Dale. Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West. Bobbs-Merril, NY. 1953. _____ . The West of William Ashley. Old West Publishing, Denver. 1964. Wishart, David J. The Fur Trade of the American West, 1807-1840. University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln. 1979. Wyeth, Nathaniel J. Journal of Captain Nathaniel J. Wyeth's Expeditions to the Oregon Country, 1831-1836. Ye Galleon Press, Fairfield, WA. 1984. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jody & Scott" Subject: MtMan-List: Trapper article Date: 09 Feb 2002 19:52:07 -0600 Mssr. Hardee, Please put me on the "list" as well. Thank you in advance, Scott C sjsdm@conpoint.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver lure recipe Date: 09 Feb 2002 21:02:43 -0500 Who wanted a beaver lure recipe? Contact me offlist. Mr. Enos, who is one of the most ardent and knowledgable trappers I have had the pleasure of meeting, told me how to make an easy bait that does not freeze and works GREAT. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Houses - research Date: 09 Feb 2002 19:02:33 -0700 Dick, Have you got some fort building project in mind somewhere locally? If so, there are a lot of folks who would be interested in helping. Todd On Sat, 9 Feb 2002 19:34:52 EST SWzypher@aol.com writes: > With all the knowledge accumulated in the group, I am sure someone > can help > me with some research: > > I am trying to piece together a composit of what a fur trade post > would be > like - west of the Mississippi, American influence and strong > Hudsons'Bay > influence. In size smaller than Fort Union, but larger than > Astoria. > > Information I am trying to accumulate includes: what activities were > housed > within the palasades such as Factor's quarters, storehouse, trade > house, > staff quarters, clerk's accomodations, blacksmith shop, "utilities" > shop, > root cellar, etc. and assign floor plan dimensions to each. > > The composite structure that will come from this is to be correct in > every > way that building codes will allow, realizing the public must be > "protected". > Similarly the materials inside and the activites will be correct to > the > period - not Hollywood and not contemporary "wannabes". > > Right now it is the architecture that is getting the attention to > plan for > budget. I have as reference good details from Fort Ross, Fort > Osage, Fort > Michilimakinac, and Fort Ligoner (not geographically correct nor > correct in > purpose in all cases, but how the problems of structure and needs > were met. > > This is a serious project and any and all input will be very much > appreciated. > > Richard James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Date: 09 Feb 2002 18:52:30 -0700 Jim, Always interested in your writing. I'd say post to everyone, but at least shoot me a copy! Todd On Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:38:49 EST Casapy123@aol.com writes: > I once wrote on article on trapper productivity during the fur trade > era. If > anyone is interested, I could post it ont the list. Could do it as > an > attachment, just post it, or make it available to those who request > it. > Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ARTICLE - Trapper Productivity Date: 09 Feb 2002 19:07:58 -0800



Mr. Jim Hardee,
     I think you are correct as I found a document that describes the failure of total dependence upon the 'tanglestick' technique, and alternatives.  It is obvious before the steel trap the chiseltooth was like the buffalo before the horse; eating and breeding without much fear of man.  Surely, the brigades and free trappers trapped what was missed or trap educated on later dates in different expeditions; collecting the the missed beaver.
 
    This is from Washington Irving's "Adventures of Captain Bonneville", chapter 26:
 

Practice, says Captain Bonneville, has given such a quickness of eye to the experienced trapper in all that relates to his pursuit, that he can detect the slightest sign of beaver, however wild; and although the lodge may be concealed by close thickets and overhanging willows, he can generally, at a single glance, make an accurate guess at the number of its inmates. He now goes to work to set his trap; planting it upon the shore, in some chosen place, two or three inches below the surface of the water, and secures it by a chain to a pole set deep in the mud. A small twig is then stripped of its bark, and one end is dipped in the "medicine," as the trappers term the peculiar bait which they employ. This end of the stick rises about four inches above the surface of the water, the other end is planted between the jaws of the trap. The beaver, possessing an acute sense of smell, is soon attracted by the odor of the bait. As he raises his nose toward it, his foot is caught in the trap. In his fright he throws a somerset into the deep water. The trap, being fastened to the pole, resists all his efforts to drag it to the shore; the chain by which it is fastened defies his teeth; he struggles for a time, and at length sinks to the bottom and is drowned.

Upon rocky bottoms, where it is not possible to plant the pole, it is thrown into the stream. The beaver, when entrapped, often gets fastened by the chain to sunken logs or floating timber; if he gets to shore, he is entangled in the thickets of brook willows. In such cases, however, it costs the trapper diligent search, and sometimes a bout at swimming, before he finds his game.

Occasionally it happens that several members of a beaver family are trapped in succession. The survivors then become extremely shy, and can scarcely be "brought to medicine," to use the trapper's phrase for "taking the bait." In such case, the trapper gives up the use of the bait, and conceals his traps in the usual paths and crossing places of the household. The beaver now being completely "up to trap," approaches them cautiously, and springs them ingeniously with a stick. At other times, he turns the traps bottom upwards, by the same means, and occasionally even drags them to the barrier and conceals them in the mud. The trapper now gives up the contest of ingenuity, and shouldering his traps, marches off, admitting that he is not yet "up to beaver."

    Evidently this could be another avenue where the float stick could have been used.  As from Bonneville's account, there were a lot of traps drug off and extensive searches if one did not flag them in some manner.  Of course, due to Indians, markers of anything too obvious would only invite stealing trapped beaver.

You guys never would have guessed I was a Tom-boy as a child would you?

Sue Raven


Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits) Date: 09 Feb 2002 22:48:09 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_365a.291b.1c01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks for your input sue--- hawk-- On Sat, 09 Feb 2002 16:41:34 -0800 "SUE RAVEN" writes: >From: hawknest4@juno.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits) >Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:04:45 -0500 > >sue--- >I had to trap several areas in the ozarks that there was no way to drive >a stake in the creek bottom or the lake bottom and what i normally did >was tie a drag rock to the chain and place it out into the water and i >would tie some light cord on to the rock---when the beaver would get >cought they have a tendency to go to deep water and when they do they >drag the rock into deeper water and thus drownd then-- when i come by the >set and the trap is gone i would grab the light rope and pull the beaver >in which was attached to the trap and the drag rock I tried the tangle >method a few times but didnt have much success with it in the area i was >trapping--- My brother Eric told me years ago about when he hunted and ran traps in the Blue river(eastern Arizona-south of Alpine), of how he made a simular set. He told me of a non-target racoon that came into his set. The rock he had xmas wrapped with double wire was setting on a ledge under water. The racoon did not pull the heavy rock in the water. Evidently Rocky knew of his fate if he swam for it. Eric said it was sure funny seeing this racoon rock and wobble that rock as he approached. I was so mad at him because he didn't bring it home alive and call me. He said you can't domesticate grown wild animals that easy. He said the pull out problem was so bad on coons that he usually drowed them if near water. He said he caugh ducks, muskrat, and racoons many times on beaver sets. This method makes good sense for a trapper on limited technology. Besides, I do not know if a beaver would chew the rope off a rock; but they did have wire a Fort Union prior to 1840. I'll e-mail Eric and see if he will share his formulae for making beaver lure or medicine as ye mountaineers say. I'm really jealous of you guys having all the fun, Sur Raven Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ----__JNP_000_365a.291b.1c01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
thanks for your input sue---
 
hawk--
 
On Sat, 09 Feb 2002 16:41:34 -0800 "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com>=20 writes:



>From: hawknest4@juno.com=20
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List:trapping and other stuff ! (baits)= =20
>Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:04:45 -0500=20
>=20
>sue---=20
>I had to trap several areas in the ozarks that there was = no way=20 to drive=20
>a stake in the creek bottom or the lake bottom and what i= =20 normally did=20
>was tie a drag rock to the chain and place it out into the= =20 water and i=20
>would tie some light cord on to the rock---when the beaver= =20 would get=20
>cought they have a tendency to go to deep water and when = they=20 do they=20
>drag the rock into deeper water and thus drownd then-- = when i=20 come by the=20
>set and the trap is gone i would grab the light rope and = pull=20 the beaver=20
>in which was attached to the trap and the drag rock I = tried the=20 tangle=20

>method a few times but didnt have much success with it in the area= i=20 was

>trapping---

     My= =20 brother Eric told me years ago about when he hunted and ran traps in the = Blue=20 river(eastern Arizona-south of Alpine), of how he made a simular set.&= nbsp; He=20 told me of a non-target racoon that came into his set.  The rock he = had=20 xmas wrapped with double wire was setting on a ledge under water.  = The=20 racoon did not pull the heavy rock in the water.  Evidently Rocky = knew of=20 his fate if he swam for it.  Eric said it was sure funny seeing this= =20 racoon rock and wobble that rock as he approached.  I was so = mad at=20 him because he didn't bring it home alive and call me.  He said= you=20 can't domesticate grown wild animals that easy.  He said the pull = out=20 problem was so bad on coons that he usually drowed them if near water.&= nbsp;=20 He said he caugh ducks, muskrat, and racoons many times on beaver sets.&= nbsp;=20 This method makes good sense for a trapper on limited technology. =20 Besides, I do not know if a beaver would chew the rope off a rock; but = they=20 did have wire a Fort Union prior to 1840.

       I'll= e-mail=20 Eric and see if he will share his formulae for making beaver lure or = medicine=20 as ye mountaineers say. 

I'm really jealous of you= guys=20 having all the fun,
 
Sur Raven

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click=20 Here
---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20
 

"HAWK"
Michael Pierce   "= Home of=20 the "Old Grizz  (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers"
= 854=20 Glenfield Dr
Palm Harbor,   Florida   =20 34684           &= nbsp;=20 Phone: 1-727-771-1815
e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com   web=20 site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
----__JNP_000_365a.291b.1c01-- ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 09 Feb 2002 23:29:36 EST Sometime its all in where you are at and what the conditions are. I'm in Missouri and only trapping in small streams, mud-bottomed lakes, etc. You go with what you have the most susccess with. Or the most access to. I.E. the large rivers here (Missouri, Mississippi) have beavers, but getting access to the land areas to trap them is a problem, as well as finding the time to cover vast miles of river. It's like they say.........You can read it in a book, but until you've done it, you've not done it! Love using conibears. As you can tell by my handle....Long story. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lwchavis@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ARTICLE - Trapper Productivity Date: 09 Feb 2002 23:34:49 EST --part1_14a.8a6a7ec.29975269_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/02 7:42:22 PM Central Standard Time, Casapy123@aol.com writes: > Here is the article in its entirety. It was published in The Trapline, vol. > > 3, #3, Spring 2000. I hope you find it helpful. > Thanks much. Larry In MS --part1_14a.8a6a7ec.29975269_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/02 7:42:22 PM Central Standard Time, Casapy123@aol.com writes:


Here is the article in its entirety.  It was published in The Trapline, vol.
3, #3, Spring 2000.  I hope you find it helpful.


Thanks much.
Larry In MS --part1_14a.8a6a7ec.29975269_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 10 Feb 2002 01:14:37 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0175_01C1B1D0.4E984340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sue, I was not able to open the page as I got an error message saying = there is a problem with the URL. Perhaps you could re-check your source = and get a corrected URL, and I would be happy to give you my 2 cents = worth. =20 Sincerely, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@mediaone.net=20 "The saddest epitaph which can be carved in memory of a vanished = liberty,=20 is that it was lost because it's possessors failed to stretch forth a = saving hand,=20 while yet there was time." -- Justice George Sutherland, 1938=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SUE RAVEN=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Mr. John Enos, I would like your critique of the quality of the info on this site on = beavers. =20 http://deal.unl.edu/icwdm/handbook/handbook/allPDF/ro_b1.pdf=20 =20 Sue Raven ----- MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click = Here ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0175_01C1B1D0.4E984340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sue,
    I was not able to open the page = as I got an=20 error message saying there is a problem with the URL.  Perhaps you = could=20 re-check your source and get a corrected URL, and I would be happy to = give you=20 my 2 cents worth. 
Sincerely,
John Enos
TrapRJohn
traprjon@mediaone.net
"The = saddest=20 epitaph which can be carved in memory of a vanished liberty,
is that = it was=20 lost because it's possessors failed to stretch forth a saving hand, =
while=20 yet there was time."    -- Justice George Sutherland, = 1938=20
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SUE RAVEN
Sent: Saturday, February 09, = 2002 7:49=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver = on the=20 Brain!



Mr. John Enos,
 
I would like your critique of the quality of the info on this = site on=20 beavers.
 
Sue Raven

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click=20 Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0175_01C1B1D0.4E984340-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Houses - research Date: 10 Feb 2002 01:43:15 EST In a message dated 2/9/02 7:13:36 PM, tetontodd@juno.com writes: <> Yes. Not for publication at the moment but it will be good. Do you have any of the source material I am seeking??? Dick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry & Barbara Zaslow" Subject: MtMan-List: Take me off the list Date: 10 Feb 2002 01:16:44 -0800 Hi Dean, I know this is not the correct way to do this but unfortunately I don't have the time. I will be out of town for the next 2 weeks and my wife and kids don't have the time to delete the 400 or so e-mails I get from the list every week. Please take me off until further notice. Thanks in advance. Best Regards, Jerry Zaslow #1488 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "T Venden" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ARTICLE - Trapper Productivity Date: 10 Feb 2002 09:15:49 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1B213.87BB3400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry, You forgot to put the article with your note. Terry ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lwchavis@aol.com=20 To: hist_text=20 Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 10:34 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ARTICLE - Trapper Productivity In a message dated 2/9/02 7:42:22 PM Central Standard Time, = Casapy123@aol.com writes: Here is the article in its entirety. It was published in The = Trapline, vol.=20 3, #3, Spring 2000. I hope you find it helpful. Thanks much. Larry In MS=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1B213.87BB3400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Larry,
You forgot to put the article with your = note.
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lwchavis@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, February 09, = 2002 10:34=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = ARTICLE -=20 Trapper Productivity

In a = message dated=20 2/9/02 7:42:22 PM Central Standard Time, Casapy123@aol.com = writes:


Here is the article in its entirety.  It was = published in=20 The Trapline, vol.
3, #3, Spring 2000.  I hope you find it=20 helpful.


Thanks much.
Larry In MS=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C1B213.87BB3400-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lwchavis@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ARTICLE - Trapper Productivity Date: 10 Feb 2002 11:54:13 EST --part1_178.35c487d.2997ffb5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/10/02 9:18:29 AM Central Standard Time, tvenden@etex.net writes: > Larry, > You forgot to put the article with your note. > Terry > Actually, I was just thanking Mr. Hardee, who had posted the article to the list. ;-) Larry in MS --part1_178.35c487d.2997ffb5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/10/02 9:18:29 AM Central Standard Time, tvenden@etex.net writes:


Larry,
You forgot to put the article with your note.
Terry


Actually, I was just thanking Mr. Hardee, who had posted the article to the list. ;-)
Larry in MS --part1_178.35c487d.2997ffb5_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Houses - research Date: 10 Feb 2002 10:46:04 -0700 On Sunday, March 30, 1941, SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 2/9/02 7:13:36 PM, tetontodd@juno.com >writes: > ><locally?>> > >Yes. Not for publication at the moment but it will be good. Do you have = any=20 >of the source material I am seeking??? >Dick > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Cougar Explosion in California Date: 10 Feb 2002 17:31:26 -0500 (EST) Amen, Hardtack (Randy Bublitz) and Trapper John (Enos). Thanks for posting that very insightful information. The hunters, trappers and shooters in that state are up against unbelievable resistance. You brothers in Cal must feel at times like living in the country's largest outdoor insane asylum. God help us. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "p monty" Subject: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? Date: 10 Feb 2002 16:45:29 -0700 Hello All, Does any one have a good period recipe for hardtack? Thanks, Paul Montgomery _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? ARCHIVES!!!!! Date: 10 Feb 2002 19:00:45 -0500 , > >Does any one have a good period recipe for hardtack? God question, but for the sanity of all who have experienced this line of questioning MANY times, please check the archives. There are TONS of info. there if you jsut look. Good recipes and good advice. Good question...just that it has an answer that is easy to find and gives you quicker information. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? Date: 10 Feb 2002 19:25:54 -0500 Randy??? D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 6:45 PM > > > Hello All, > > Does any one have a good period recipe for hardtack? > > Thanks, > Paul Montgomery > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! Date: 10 Feb 2002 16:49:31 -0800 >From: >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:14:37 -0500 > >Hi Sue, > I was not able to open the page as I got an error message saying there >is a problem with the URL. Perhaps you could re-check your source and get >a corrected URL, and I would be happy to give you my 2 cents worth. >Sincerely, >John Enos >TrapRJohn >traprjon@mediaone.net >"The saddest epitaph which can be carved in memory of a vanished liberty, >is that it was lost because it's possessors failed to stretch forth a >saving hand, >while yet there was time." -- Justice George Sutherland, 1938 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SUE RAVEN > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:49 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! > > > > > > > Mr. John Enos, > > I would like your critique of the quality of the info on this site on >beavers. > > > http://deal.unl.edu/icwdm/handbook/handbook/allPDF/ro_b1.pdf > > > Sue Raven > > Mr. John Enos, I see what you mean. My first click failed on this site. However my 2nd click got me right in. try it again and if it fails I'll send as much data as possible to get you there. Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? Date: 10 Feb 2002 18:55:56 -0800 Hardtack Recipe: From the New Ulm Minnesota Militia 1863 3 Cups Milk (raw, or buttermilk) 8 Cups Flour (3 whole wheat, 5 unbleached) 2 tablespoons Sugar (brown, or raw) 1 tablespoon salt 4 Tablespoons Lard (vegetable shortening) Mix well and roll out 1/4" thick. Cut into 3" x 3" squares. Punch holes into a grid pattern with a wooden spoon Handle, think saltine crackers. Bake at 400 dg. for 35 minutes (to taste). The ( ) are mine. This recipe was given to me by my Garndma, her Dad served in this Militia Unit, which was formed after the Sioux uprising of 1862 in the Minnesota Territory.I've had good luck with it. All dogs and some people like it. hardtack > [Original Message] > From: p monty > To: > Date: 2/10/02 3:45:29 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? > > > > Hello All, > > Does any one have a good period recipe for hardtack? > > Thanks, > Paul Montgomery > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Bo ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: BoB Trappin' Article Date: 10 Feb 2002 19:57:23 -0700 Hello the List, For those that are still interested in the beaver trappin' deal, the Book of Buckskinning #8 has a good article. It's on page 70, and is written by Shawn Webster, check it out, you'll like it. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? Date: 10 Feb 2002 20:38:50 -0700 I've found that horses really groove on the taste of hard tack to. that recipe sounds like it might taste better than the one I use. In which, has no shortening or grease or milk, in it. sounds good! Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 7:55 PM > > Hardtack Recipe: > From the New Ulm Minnesota Militia 1863 > > 3 Cups Milk (raw, or buttermilk) > 8 Cups Flour (3 whole wheat, 5 unbleached) > 2 tablespoons Sugar (brown, or raw) > 1 tablespoon salt > 4 Tablespoons Lard (vegetable shortening) > Mix well and roll out 1/4" thick. Cut into 3" x 3" squares. Punch holes > into a grid pattern with a wooden spoon Handle, think saltine crackers. > Bake at 400 dg. for 35 minutes (to taste). The ( ) are mine. This > recipe was given to me by my Garndma, her Dad served in this Militia Unit, > which was formed after the Sioux uprising of 1862 in the Minnesota > Territory.I've had good luck with it. All dogs and some people like it. > hardtack > > > [Original Message] > > From: p monty > > To: > > Date: 2/10/02 3:45:29 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > Does any one have a good period recipe for hardtack? > > > > Thanks, > > Paul Montgomery > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > --- Randal Bublitz > --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net > we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, > we are Bo > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? Date: 10 Feb 2002 20:38:50 -0700 I've found that horses really groove on the taste of hard tack to. that recipe sounds like it might taste better than the one I use. In which, has no shortening or grease or milk, in it. sounds good! Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 7:55 PM > > Hardtack Recipe: > From the New Ulm Minnesota Militia 1863 > > 3 Cups Milk (raw, or buttermilk) > 8 Cups Flour (3 whole wheat, 5 unbleached) > 2 tablespoons Sugar (brown, or raw) > 1 tablespoon salt > 4 Tablespoons Lard (vegetable shortening) > Mix well and roll out 1/4" thick. Cut into 3" x 3" squares. Punch holes > into a grid pattern with a wooden spoon Handle, think saltine crackers. > Bake at 400 dg. for 35 minutes (to taste). The ( ) are mine. This > recipe was given to me by my Garndma, her Dad served in this Militia Unit, > which was formed after the Sioux uprising of 1862 in the Minnesota > Territory.I've had good luck with it. All dogs and some people like it. > hardtack > > > [Original Message] > > From: p monty > > To: > > Date: 2/10/02 3:45:29 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > Does any one have a good period recipe for hardtack? > > > > Thanks, > > Paul Montgomery > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > --- Randal Bublitz > --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net > we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, > we are Bo > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack recipe? Date: 10 Feb 2002 20:27:33 -0800 Tom, This recipe came from a bunch of German Immigrant Farmers in Minnesota. Farm folks know how to eat . hardtack > I've found that horses really groove on the taste of hard tack to. that > recipe sounds like it might taste better than the one I use. In which, has > no shortening or grease or milk, in it. sounds good! > Tom > > > > > > Hardtack Recipe: > > From the New Ulm Minnesota Militia 1863 > > > > 3 Cups Milk (raw, or buttermilk) > > 8 Cups Flour (3 whole wheat, 5 unbleached) > > 2 tablespoons Sugar (brown, or raw) > > 1 tablespoon salt > > 4 Tablespoons Lard (vegetable shortening) > > Mix well and roll out 1/4" thick. Cut into 3" x 3" squares. Punch > holes > > into a grid pattern with a wooden spoon Handle, think saltine crackers. > > Bake at 400 dg. for 35 minutes (to taste). The ( ) are mine. This > > recipe was given to me by my Garndma, her Dad served in this Militia Unit, > > which was formed after the Sioux uprising of 1862 in the Minnesota > > Territory.I've had good luck with it. All dogs and some people like it. > > hardtack > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > Does any one have a good period recipe for hardtack? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Paul Montgomery --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the E ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Camp Date: 10 Feb 2002 23:44:17 EST Klahowya Boys, I'm just back from a neat little Winter Camp with a few of the Columbia Dept. boys, up around the Santiam Pass, in the high Cascades. Can't say when I've been in such deep SNOW! I'm thinking it had to be at least 8' feet of powder, and it took all day for George and Dale to break/pack a trail into camp, and then to near dark trying to find and dig out the cave/camp. I had it easy coming in Saturday morning until I slid off the trail on a down hill, and launched into the deep stuff..... had to actually tunnel out from all the gear I was packing to get back on the trail. Ever try to get out of yer snowshoe bindings by feel alone, buried to your arm pits? Puts new meaning into having fun! Anyway ... gathered up all my gear and made it into camp with only one more wreck. Next time I'll have toboggan to haul my stuff...think I was a bit top heavy. The camp sure was sumtin! George and that group put a lot of effort into building a shelter of logs on three sides and a roof, up against a volcanic out cropping. With so much snow, they had to dig down about five feet to find the entrance, then fight their the way around back and up top to tunnel down for the smoke hole. Once you got inside, it was the neatest little shelter/cave a mountaineer could want. Enough room for 6 people at least, and more if ya moved all the cut and dry wood outside. With a piece of canvas covering the entrance, and a good hot little fire going, it was shirt sleeve comfortable inside. We didn't spend much time exploring because it was just to hard to get around. By night fall, I hurt in places I didn't know I had ... need to spend more time on snowshoes.... We all ate buffalo for dinner, rice, jerk, parched corn, hot chocolate, and of course a jug of apple pie that somehow survived all my crashes... I was new blood for the Columbia Dept. gang, so all my yarns didn't draw too many yawns... George, Joseph, and Dale (and Margaret and Elijah too!) made great conversation and we spent a very pleasant evening. I think it was late when we all finally turned in.... We all kinda cooked sumtin for breakfast... I had oatmeal porridge with raisins, looked like Dale had some chicken....Joseph was working on some buffalo.. plenty of food left as we broke camp. This time I put my bed roll and some gear on Joe's toboggan and I acted as a break on the way out..easy going. George had over a hundred pounds of gear, and Elijah on his toboggan, and once out on the main trail, they took off on the down hill run....hootin and hollerin all the way down.... A good pay back for all the work they did coming in. As I packed up my stuff, I'm thinking I need to spend more than a couple days in this country at this time of the year....a great camp. Here's a couple jpg's of (l-r) George, Joseph, Dale... in the other, the hole to the lower left is the way in... Magpie gjd.jpg http://members.aol.com/swcushing/gjd.jpg wc.jpg http://members.aol.com/swcushing/wc.jpg ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! My Answer. Date: 10 Feb 2002 23:56:46 -0500 Greetings Sue and list, I was not able to access the URL you first sent, however the second U= RL allowed me to download what appears to be a small book, with Real Downloa= d. I have only skimmed through it up to now, and will need some time to read= it all. On the face of it, from what I did read and scan, so far, it looks pretty accurate to me (keeping in mind that so far I have only skimmed through it. Here is a passage that caught my eye that I thought was real good info, as I have been saying the same thing for years, the better you know your target critter, and the more attention to detail you pay with t= rap adjustment - placement, etc. the better job you will be able to do. Here= is a paragraph from the text in column form. *************************************** Trapping The use of traps in most situations where beavers are causing damage is the most effective, practical, and environmentally safe method of control. The effectiveness of any type of trap for beaver control is dependent on the trapper=92s knowledge of beaver habits, food preferences, ability to read beaver signs, use of the proper trap, and trap placement. A good trapper with a dozen traps can generally trap all the beavers in a given pond (behind one dam) in a week of trap nights. Obviously in a large watershed with several colonies, more trapping effort will be required. Most anyone with trapping experience and some outdoor =93savvy=94 can become an effective beaver trapper in a short time. In an area where beavers are common and have not been exposed to trapping, anyone experienced in trapping can expect good success. Additional expertise and improved techniques will be gained through experience. ******************************* I think this is right on point, and it's why I teach Trapper Education, s= o new trappers can go out and hopefully not make the same mistakes I did wh= en there was no one to show me!!! I have often said, "If I have to be stran= ded in the woods and could choose between a couple of traps and a firearm, gi= ve me the traps. I will be sure of eating more regularly than with a firearm!!! When I read the whole thing (probably in a few days) I will e-mail you my thoughts directly so as not to clutter up the list with continuing this subject, unless the list wants to hear the rest, after I read it. Also the site has nice looking drawings!!! More to follow when= I have read it all!!! Thanks for the opportunity and info Sue. Sincerely, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@mediaone.net "The saddest epitaph which can be carved in memory of a vanished liberty, is that it was lost because it's possessors failed to stretch forth a sav= ing hand, while yet there was time." -- Justice George Sutherland, 1938 *************************************************************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: SUE RAVEN > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:49 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! > > > > Mr. John Enos, > > > > I would like your critique of the quality of the info on this site = on > >beavers. > > > > http://deal.unl.edu/icwdm/handbook/handbook/allPDF/ro_b1.pdf > > > > Sue Raven > > > > *********************************************************** > Mr. John Enos, > I see what you mean. My first click failed on this site. However > my 2nd click got me right in. try it again and if it fails I'll send a= s > much data as possible to get you there. > > Sue Raven ************************************************************** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elkflea@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cougar Explosion in California Date: 11 Feb 2002 10:05:56 EST Greetings the Group: I live in California. Many folks might live their whole lives without ever seeing Mr. Longtail. Since 1993, excepting last year, I have seen more Mt. Lions than legal bucks. I have heard them at night chasing deer outside my bedroom window, running them into barbed wire fences, then the ensuing woman-like scream sentinels the death to follow. This was in the early '90's. I got the idea to sit high atop a building one night with a Cabellas deer call and fawn bleat. I remained motionless, sat upon the floor of an upstairs dwelling with the window open. I called for about 40 minutes without peeking outside. It wasn't long until I heard rustling outside. I turned on a flashlight to see a set of cat eyes spaced 5 inches apart-my neck hackles stood straight up! I slid down the wall and sat quietly on the floor for a few minutes. He was merely some 40 feet from the house. Another time I pulled off the side of old highway 101, one night to relieve myself. I stepped from the car, walked to the rear bumper, caught the essence of motion behind me, turned to see Mr. Longtail in the moonlight some 30+ feet from me. Needless to say, I sauntered back to the drivers door then drove another 5 miles further to complete the task. My first sighting of a Puma was early on, it was one of the variants a large black one during a mid-summer day. I watched it as it crossed an open field behind my house. A couple of years ago, there was one hit by a car in downtown Santa Rosa, about 15 miles from my home. Some years back, an acquaintance of my wife was mauled to death by one. I've had chance encounters with them while deer hunting, a brief glimpse across a river and as follows: I recall one year my hunting partner was stalked by one, I picked up on what was going on and began stalking the cat that was stalking my best friend. Mr. Longtail became suspicious after some minutes of this and took the high road. My very first encounter with Mr. Longtail was when I was about 16 or 17 years old. I used to take the family car and go off solo camping in remote areas. This one time was a deer hunting trip in the Northern Sierras. I climbed up this one snow capped peak near the Village of Viola. Upon approaching the top I encountered a set of cat tracks in the snow. I circled around the knoll to encounter my own tracks again when I noticed that there were a large set of cat tracks following my old tracks from where I started. At age 16 I didn't want to mess with shooting at any Mt. Lion. Nor did I enjoy the idea of being stalked and possibly surprise attacked. This was a long time before they were protected in this state. In 1995 my wife and I were surrounded by 3 of them for the better part of 2 1/2 days. This was the only occurrence in all the years that they were verbal. The resonance of the three cats in this canyon was awesome. They sound much like a housecat but about an octave lower and as if they were using a megaphone. We contemplated that one was in heat and the others were males. They didn't seem all that interested in us. Though we did have a peculiar interaction with the female. The female did yield eye contact . The eye contact from one of these big cats has a mysterious way of freezing you, you forget about time and self...its most paralyzing. Its on a very primal level, that unless you have experienced it, its indescribable. I have seen them on the premises where I work in broad daylight. These are a few of the encounters / sightings I have had with the big cats. Well, its getting late and I have a date with a local steelhead stream...... Be safe in the California West, The Best to All, Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: MtMan-List: Brief Intro Date: 18 Feb 2002 09:39:04 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0169_01C1B860.1AD7B540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New to list Name Sam Been in/out muzzleloading for little over 40 yrs. {god has it been that long?} I might know a few of you from the ole days and Ive met a few from the "other" list I hope its easier to post here than other list Thinking of building another rifle, or commission one...Researching some info first Avid hunter.. Go alot of western state shoots Love canoe trips from days to weeks nuff said Sam ------=_NextPart_000_0169_01C1B860.1AD7B540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
New to list
Name Sam
Been in/out muzzleloading for  = little=20 over
40 yrs. {god has it been that = long?}
I might know a few of you from the ole=20 days
and Ive met a few from the "other"=20 list
I hope its easier to post here than = other=20 list
Thinking of building another rifle, or=20 commission
one...Researching some info = first
Avid hunter.. Go alot of western state=20 shoots
Love canoe trips from days to = weeks
nuff said
Sam
------=_NextPart_000_0169_01C1B860.1AD7B540-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brief Intro Date: 11 Feb 2002 09:05:03 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C1B2DB.310B7160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome Sam. Nuff said. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WindWalker=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 6:39 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Brief Intro New to list Name Sam Been in/out muzzleloading for little over 40 yrs. {god has it been that long?} I might know a few of you from the ole days and Ive met a few from the "other" list I hope its easier to post here than other list Thinking of building another rifle, or commission one...Researching some info first Avid hunter.. Go alot of western state shoots Love canoe trips from days to weeks nuff said Sam ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C1B2DB.310B7160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Welcome Sam. Nuff said.
 
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WindWalker
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 = 6:39=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Brief = Intro

New to list
Name Sam
Been in/out muzzleloading for  = little=20 over
40 yrs. {god has it been that = long?}
I might know a few of you from the = ole=20 days
and Ive met a few from the "other"=20 list
I hope its easier to post here than = other=20 list
Thinking of building another rifle, = or=20 commission
one...Researching some info = first
Avid hunter.. Go alot of western = state=20 shoots
Love canoe trips from days to = weeks
nuff said
Sam
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C1B2DB.310B7160-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Ned, you are missed!!! Date: 11 Feb 2002 12:13:31 -0800



Ned,
      After the silence it seems the list has taken on a new perspective.  The emotionally charged quarreling seems to have vanished.  I would like to think it was partly because they had encountered your spirit and maybe realized that all were somewhat guilty from time to time; even though few put it in print.
      If you look in the past week we had a delightful debate on trapping beaver.  Gawd, I'm jealous of you men getting to have all the fun.   Hope to see your poats soon.
 
Your eternal pal,
 
Sue Raven

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article Date: 11 Feb 2002 12:27:25 -0800





>From: Allen Hall
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: MtMan-List: BoB Trappin' Article
>Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:57:23 -0700
>
>Hello the List,
>
>For those that are still interested in the beaver trappin' deal, the Book of
>Buckskinning #8 has a good article. It's on page 70, and is written by
>Shawn Webster, check it out, you'll like it.
>
>Allen
>
Allen,
      Eric, my brother said he read this about a year ago.  Having such an interest in trapping, even though the bounty exceeded the fur market.  He claims the data is pretty good yet he doubts if any large adults could be taken by these methods.  He also mentioned that the author of the article was very honest in admitting he was no expert; which adds to the authors credibility.
      As I'm not a rendezvou-er, so to speak, and do not have this collection of books or access to them, it is hard for me to discuss the articles.  Could you list the documents sources and authors where I may evaluate the article?
 
Trying not to create a flame,
Sue Raven
   

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: 1796 Cookbook Date: 11 Feb 2002 12:53:45 -0800 (PST) This add is in the Northeast Oklahoma Electric Cooperative News paper "Oklahoma Living" Their site is: http://www.trescocorp.com American Cookery: recipies for "Indian Slapjacks" and "Johnny Cake". This is a reprint by a Ohio Publisher.$19.95 + $3.98 p/h or $30.00 for 2 with postage paid. American Cookbook Special Offer AC3915 718- 12th Street N.W.,Box24500 Canton, OH 44701 I don't know much more but do have the ad and if you want more info, Hit me off list. ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article Date: 11 Feb 2002 20:36:37 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C1B33B.CD91A080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This has been an interesting exchange, and, as Sue has noted, the tone = has been positive which I applaud. =20 As to this most recent post about the article in Book of Buckskinning = VIII, Sue, is your brother saying, when he acknowledges that the "data = is pretty good" but further notes that he doubts if any large adults = could be taken by these methods," that if the fur trappers, during the = rocky mountain fur trapping era, had used traps like the reproduction = traps described in the article, and the general methods of trapping = discussed in the article, that they could not (or did not, as a general = rule) take large adult beaver? I want to fully understand his position as regards the methods cited in = the article, as I gather that he has a great deal of hands-on experience = actually trapping beaver over the years. Since the article has been questioned to this degree, I am sending a = copy of it to a friend from Kansas, who, over the course of some years = of hard effort, has actually trapped several thousand beaver, including = over 350 during a 3-1/2 week period several years ago, while trapping on = the Arkansas River. The documented effort was amazing both in terms of = the amount of work (and very long hours) involved and the degree of = success. Even more so when he then drove to Dubois, Wyoming, where a = very fine tannery is located, and proceeded to flesh (with the help of a = friend from Texas), the entire lot. I cannot image how long those days = must have seened, or the degree of exhaustion involved. It will be = interesting to see his take on the article as a whole and the methods, = etc. described in it.=20 =20 As I will be making his copy tomorrow, should you wish to have a copy to = review, since I can make two copies about as easily as I can make one, = please advise and I will send it to you immediately. Regards, Paul Allen, Eric, my brother said he read this about a year ago. Having = such an interest in trapping, even though the bounty exceeded the fur = market. He claims the data is pretty good yet he doubts if any large = adults could be taken by these methods. He also mentioned that the = author of the article was very honest in admitting he was no expert; = which adds to the authors credibility. As I'm not a rendezvou-er, so to speak, and do not have this = collection of books or access to them, it is hard for me to discuss the = articles. Could you list the documents sources and authors where I may = evaluate the article? =20 Trying not to create a flame, Sue Raven =20 ----- Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C1B33B.CD91A080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This has been an interesting exchange, and, = as Sue has=20 noted, the tone has been positive which I applaud.
 
As to this most recent post about the = article in Book=20 of Buckskinning VIII, Sue, is your brother saying, when he=20 acknowledges that the "data is pretty good" but further notes that he=20 doubts if any large adults could be taken by these methods," that=20 if the fur trappers, during the rocky mountain fur trapping = era, had=20 used traps like the reproduction traps described in the article, and the = general=20 methods of trapping discussed in the article, that they could not (or = did not,=20 as a general rule) take large adult beaver?
 
I want to fully understand his position as = regards the=20 methods cited in the article, as I gather that he has a great deal of = hands-on=20 experience actually trapping beaver over the = years.
 
Since the article has been questioned to = this degree,=20 I am sending a copy of it to a friend from Kansas, who, over the course = of some=20 years of hard effort, has actually trapped several thousand beaver, = including=20 over 350 during a 3-1/2 week period several years ago, while trapping on = the=20 Arkansas River.  The documented effort was amazing both in terms of = the=20 amount of work (and very long hours) involved and the degree=20 of success.  Even more so when he then drove to Dubois, = Wyoming,=20 where a very fine tannery is located, and proceeded to flesh (with = the help=20 of a friend from Texas), the entire lot.  I cannot image how long = those=20 days must have seened, or the degree of exhaustion involved.  It = will be=20 interesting to see his take on the article as a whole and the methods, = etc.=20 described in it. 
 
As I will be making his copy = tomorrow, should you=20 wish to have a copy to review, since I can=20 make two copies about as easily as I can make one, please advise = and I will=20 send it to you immediately.
 
Regards,
 
Paul
Allen,
      Eric, = my=20 brother said he read this about a year ago.  Having such an = interest in=20 trapping, even though the bounty exceeded the fur market.  He = claims the=20 data is pretty good yet he doubts if any large adults could be taken = by these=20 methods.  He also mentioned that the author of the article was = very=20 honest in admitting he was no expert; which adds to the authors=20 credibility.
      As = I'm not a=20 rendezvou-er, so to speak, and do not have this collection of books or = access=20 to them, it is hard for me to discuss the articles.  Could you = list the=20 documents sources and authors where I may evaluate the = article?
 
Trying not to create a = flame,
Sue Raven
    =

Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click=20 Here
---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html = ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C1B33B.CD91A080-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Usner Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver catch (Trapper productivity) Date: 11 Feb 2002 22:13:57 -0500 How can I get a copy? David Usner usnerd@bigplanet.com -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gretchen Ormond Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 9:39 AM > At 12:38 AM 02/09/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >I once wrote on article on trapper productivity during the fur trade era. If > >anyone is interested, I could post it ont the list. Could do it as an > >attachment, just post it, or make it available to those who request it. > >Anybody have a preference? (does anyone want to see it?) > > > >Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 Please make it available. I have concidered doing a little number crunching myself and I am sure you used the same (Ogdens) or better sources than I would. Mind Yer Hair Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Dept of Interior websites Date: 12 Feb 2002 09:55:05 -0600 Recent difficulty in getting into Department of the Interior websites has been explained. The latest information I have (which may be a bit old) is that apparently, a politically motivated computer hacker succeeded in damaging some Interior websites, particularly those of the National Park Service. In response, a Federal judge has ordered a lock down on all (or most) Interior Department sites until the damage can be corrected and steps taken to help secure all Interior Department sites. Investigators aren't saying much but the inference is that the hackers have either been identified or they are in custody. It is very likely that the hackers were acting independently. There is no evidence that they were 9/11 motivated, nor are they linked to any terrorist organization. Hopefully, the sites will be up and running again soon. Don't shoot the message bearer. This is only what I've been told. Cheers, HBC *********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442, ext 255 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.museum.ttu.edu ***Living History . . . Because It's There*** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Spivey, Michael" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dept of Interior websites Date: 12 Feb 2002 08:35:08 -0800 Hi All, The issue goes much deeper. The interior and exterior access to the Department of the Interior websites was curtailed by a Federal Judge but not for the reason given below. Not only was the access curtailed but backup tapes were seized. There is a major investigation going on concerning mishandling (large scale theft) of Indian trust funds by agencies within the Federal Government DOI specificly. the stories concerning this are archived at various points on the web with NewsMax.com and WND.com having both reported this issue. Sierratimes.com also reported this story. Thought you all would want to know. Gives you a warm fuzzy doesn't it? Mike Spivey Ontario, CAL -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 7:55 AM Cc: cobbfarm@ev1.net; wettemar@mcmurryadm.mcm.edu; cshay@TTACS.TTU.EDU; cw-reenactors@europe.std.com; darla@ywhc.org; texascamelcorps@htcomp.net; frazer@flash.net; hist_text@lists.xmission.com; museum@furtrade.org; tam@io.com; walkswan@iguana.ruralnet.net; kenneth.pollard@tpwd.state.tx.us; adjutant7inf@juno.com; txrousse@swbell.net; fmedu@swbell.net; sgensvcs@hotmail.com; santa-fe-trail@listproc.gcnet.com; Drapers@Hood-emh3.Army.Mil; tetontodd@juno.com; j2mnro@xroadstx.com; jerrym.sullivan@worldnet.att.net; jfluhman@earthlink.net; bill@scurlockpublishing.com; lijas@lib.ttu.edu; n_stark@yahoo.com Recent difficulty in getting into Department of the Interior websites has been explained. The latest information I have (which may be a bit old) is that apparently, a politically motivated computer hacker succeeded in damaging some Interior websites, particularly those of the National Park Service. In response, a Federal judge has ordered a lock down on all (or most) Interior Department sites until the damage can be corrected and steps taken to help secure all Interior Department sites. Investigators aren't saying much but the inference is that the hackers have either been identified or they are in custody. It is very likely that the hackers were acting independently. There is no evidence that they were 9/11 motivated, nor are they linked to any terrorist organization. Hopefully, the sites will be up and running again soon. Don't shoot the message bearer. This is only what I've been told. Cheers, HBC *********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442, ext 255 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.museum.ttu.edu ***Living History . . . Because It's There*** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ned Eddins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ned, you are missed!!! Date: 12 Feb 2002 09:50:13 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1B3AA.AA983AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sue,=20 I have followed a few of the trapping posts with great interest. Has = anyone said where the re-built trading post or fort is to be located? = From a historical standpoint, I wish it would be Fort Raymond (Fort = Ramon, Manuel's Fort)at the junction of the Big Horn and the = Yellowstone. If you get the article that Allan Hall referred to other than over the = list, please send me a copy. Take Care, Ned neddins@silverstar.com www.mountainsofstone.com www.thefurtrapper.com ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1B3AA.AA983AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sue,
I have followed a few of the trapping=20 posts with great interest. Has anyone said where the re-built = trading post=20 or fort is to be located? From a historical standpoint, I wish = it=20 would be Fort Raymond (Fort Ramon, Manuel's Fort)at the junction of = the Big=20 Horn and the Yellowstone.
 
If you get the article that Allan Hall = referred to=20 other than over the list, please send me a copy.
 
Take Care,
 
Ned
neddins@silverstar.com
www.mountainsofstone.com
= www.thefurtrapper.com ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1B3AA.AA983AC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "walter palmer" Date: 12 Feb 2002 12:42:18 -0500 does anyone know how to get creosote off my canvas tent ? longbutt@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ned, you are missed!!! Date: 12 Feb 2002 10:04:11 -0800 >Sue, >I have followed a few of the trapping posts with great interest. Has anyone >said where the re-built trading post or fort is to be located? From a >historical standpoint, I wish it would be Fort Raymond (Fort Ramon, >Manuel's Fort)at the junction of the Big Horn and the Yellowstone. > Ned, as far as I know for some reason he wants it kept hush for the moment; the location that is. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article Date: 12 Feb 2002 10:51:06 -0800 >From: "Paul Jones" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article >Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:36:37 -0600 > > >As to this most recent post about the article in Book of Buckskinning VIII, >Sue, is your brother saying, when he acknowledges that the "data is pretty >good" but further notes that he doubts if any large adults could be taken >by these methods," that if the fur trappers, during the rocky mountain fur >trapping era, had used traps like the reproduction traps described in the >article, and the general methods of trapping discussed in the article, that >they could not (or did not, as a general rule) take large adult beaver? Mr. Jones, Eric said the only flaws he found in the article were that he missed two methods of trapping beaver from the old methods. 1. There was a pole method that a trap chain was linked to. Something about the dead pole being stuck deep in the mud of the bottom of the stream in 4-6 feet of water. Or, he said the pole was tied at both ends to stakes. At the anchor stake the pole was tied at the bottom, and at the other end near the bank in shallow water. the pole had the knots on it where the trapper trimmed the limbs off. The limbs were aimed toward the water or rather, into the deep water. Eric says the beaver would jump for deep water pulling the trap chain RING or TIED WIRE down the pole. The knots stopped the beaver from pulling the trap back up. If you understand me, the small end of the pole is aimed toward the depth of the water. However, he pointed out, since beaver will not usually chew deadwood; yet the construction of such a set is tedious and it has to be very sturdy. He says that is why it is seldom used today; too much work and sometimes it is unstable. 2. The earlier post about the stone drag used in the Ozark waters parallels the other technique. Eric claims that the Washington Irving document I posted a few days ago hints at the type of set. As he won't let me come right out and tell of this method. He said 'Give them trappers a riddle'. He claims that an old time trapping author, Stanley Hawbaker published this unique method used long ago in the northeast. However, Eric got it from an Indian he once trapped with long before he read the book. This is not much of a riddle, but for the adept trapper it is hinted at strongly in this paragraph. He said this method was so foolproof, that seldom would a trapper lose a beaver. Eric says trapping techniques were like the secretive beaver medicine; you seldom told a soul! Eric's funny, in that he won't tell anyone where he hunts either. Says when you tell one eleven others tell someone else. Although he doesn't feel that the mountaineer types are a threat to his bounty trapping. He just says what ever we write is preserved for everyone to see. But he did allow me to give a few hints for the 'diligent hardcores'. > >I want to fully understand his position as regards the methods cited in the >article, as I gather that he has a great deal of hands-on experience >actually trapping beaver over the years. >As I will be making his copy tomorrow, should you wish to have a copy to >review, since I can make two copies about as easily as I can make one, >please advise and I will send it to you immediately. > Mr. Jones, I do not want to seem ungrateful or rude on your offer. But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or knocking at my door, or whatever. I totally understand your enthusiasm for your sport/hobby; but I need my privacy. The authors and titles of the documents in the bibliography would be most helpful, if you wanted to off-list e-mail them. Again, I am grateful for the offer. Respectfully, Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dept of Interior websites Date: 12 Feb 2002 15:51:10 EST --part1_116.c31acc5.299ada3e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12, michael.spivey@lmco.com writes: << ----(stuff deleted )---- There is a major investigation going on concerning mishandling (large scale theft) of Indian trust funds by agencies within the Federal Government DOI specificly ----(stuff deleted )---- >> Amazing, it only took them 130 years to notice and start an investigation. But will we live long enough to see a conclusion? Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous" www.wizzywigweb.com/longshot/ --part1_116.c31acc5.299ada3e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12, michael.spivey@lmco.com writes:

<< ----(stuff deleted )---- There is a major investigation going on concerning
mishandling (large scale theft) of Indian trust funds by agencies within the
Federal Government DOI specificly ----(stuff deleted )---- >>

Amazing, it only took them 130 years to notice and start an investigation. But will we live long enough to see a conclusion?

Longshot
"Longshot's Rendezvous"
www.wizzywigweb.com/longshot/ --part1_116.c31acc5.299ada3e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article Date: 12 Feb 2002 15:08:36 -0600 > > Mr. Jones, I do not want to seem ungrateful or rude on your offer. But I > have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails from a few on the list. I > really do not want anyone lingering around or knocking at my door, or > whatever. I totally understand your enthusiasm for your sport/hobby; but I > need my privacy. The authors and titles of the documents in the > bibliography would be most helpful, if you wanted to off-list e-mail them. > Again, I am grateful for the offer. > > Respectfully, > > Sue Raven > Sue, I am sorry that your are receiving unwanted correspondence from would be suitors, but truely, I am a happily married man who has no interest (or extra) ardor for anyone other than my spouse, and moreover, I have no interest in where you live as I will never, ever, linger around or knock on your door. I am too old, my wife is too mean, and I would rather spend my remaining years staring at mountains without the restraint of iron bars. Perhaps you could contact me off-list with a third party address, someone who you trust to keep your identity and location a secret, or simply provide me with a fax number with instructions as to how it is to be addressed. Kinkos and other stores that receive faxes for their customers do not care what name is used, and you can call yourself whatever, or have a friend in a different part of the world do same for you. Frankly, the article is worth reading, the references are sparse and not clearly on point. However, it is your call. Do appreciate the information from your brother. Regards, Paul ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 19 Feb 2002 15:28:48 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01C1B95A.201C3800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am I paranoid? Or is the "other list {mlml} totally moderated? Im up to 17 posts being rejected 2 for "unproper wording" i.e use of name stores. Just wondering, as I know not different Sam Windwalker ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01C1B95A.201C3800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Am I paranoid?
Or is the "other list {mlml} totally=20 moderated?
Im up to 17 posts being = rejected
2 for "unproper wording" i.e use of = name=20 stores.
Just wondering, as I know not=20 different
Sam = Windwalker
------=_NextPart_000_0100_01C1B95A.201C3800-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 12 Feb 2002 13:21:27 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C1B3C8.2CDCE630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sam I haven't been on the MLML list for a while, but it was heavily = moderated when I was there. There is a website with the rules on it at = http://members.aol.com/illinewek/ =20 Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WindWalker=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: MtMan-List: off topic Am I paranoid? Or is the "other list {mlml} totally moderated? Im up to 17 posts being rejected 2 for "unproper wording" i.e use of name stores. Just wondering, as I know not different Sam Windwalker ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C1B3C8.2CDCE630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sam
 
I haven't been on the MLML list for a = while, but it=20 was heavily moderated when I was there.  There is a website with = the rules=20 on it at http://members.aol.com/illinew= ek/ =20
 
Regards from Idaho
 
Lee Newbill
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WindWalker
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, = 2002 12:28=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: off = topic

Am I paranoid?
Or is the "other list {mlml} totally=20 moderated?
Im up to 17 posts being = rejected
2 for "unproper wording" i.e use of = name=20 stores.
Just wondering, as I know not=20 different
Sam=20 Windwalker
------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C1B3C8.2CDCE630-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 19 Feb 2002 15:43:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C1B95C.2C277E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks To many rules for me, had to give life history, just to join list then, being rejected on posts just dont cut it... I made a couple posts in reguard to questions I was asked direct.. still = that havent been "approved" My thoughts... Im to old to be waiting on pups to either approve my = context/spelling ect or disapprove... 35 things must be in orger to post and wind must be from south ect = ect.... Will tend to the matter indeed ! Thanks just wanted to know as my post on moderation there was rejected = also.. Sam ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lee Newbill=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 4:21 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Sam I haven't been on the MLML list for a while, but it was heavily = moderated when I was there. There is a website with the rules on it at = http://members.aol.com/illinewek/ =20 Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WindWalker=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: MtMan-List: off topic Am I paranoid? Or is the "other list {mlml} totally moderated? Im up to 17 posts being rejected 2 for "unproper wording" i.e use of name stores. Just wondering, as I know not different Sam Windwalker ------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C1B95C.2C277E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks
To many rules for me, had to give life = history,=20 just to join list
then, being rejected on posts just dont = cut=20 it...
I made a couple posts in reguard to = questions I was=20 asked direct.. still that havent been "approved"
My thoughts... Im to old to be waiting = on pups to=20 either approve my context/spelling ect or disapprove...
35 things must be in orger to post and = wind must be=20 from south ect ect....
Will tend to the matter indeed = !
Thanks just wanted to know as my post = on moderation=20 there was rejected also..
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lee=20 Newbill
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, = 2002 4:21=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off = topic

Sam
 
I haven't been on the MLML list for a = while, but=20 it was heavily moderated when I was there.  There is a website = with the=20 rules on it at http://members.aol.com/illinew= ek/ =20
 
Regards from Idaho
 
Lee Newbill
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WindWalker
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, = 2002 12:28=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: off = topic

Am I paranoid?
Or is the "other list {mlml} = totally=20 moderated?
Im up to 17 posts being = rejected
2 for "unproper wording" i.e use of = name=20 stores.
Just wondering, as I know not=20 different
Sam=20 Windwalker
------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C1B95C.2C277E00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 12 Feb 2002 17:06:25 EST In a message dated 2/12/02 1:31:50 PM, windwalker@fastmail.fm writes: << Thanks just wanted to know as my post on moderation there was rejected also.. Sam >> Haaaaa..... Don't feel bad Sam, I was told to shut my mouth there on occassion too.... Kanger gets a bit testy if you don't agree with him.... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 19 Feb 2002 16:38:49 -0500 Greets... well Im to old to be told to shut mouth... Would jerk a top knot for that indeed... and in a heartbeat. Well its his forum I guess..... Maybe thats why in the ole days alot proclaimed themselves 'Freetrappers"? so they didnt have to deal with stuff liken that? Nice to meet ya Sam Windwalker ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:06 PM > > In a message dated 2/12/02 1:31:50 PM, windwalker@fastmail.fm writes: > > << Thanks just wanted to know as my post on moderation there was rejected > also.. > > Sam >> > > Haaaaa..... Don't feel bad Sam, I was told to shut my mouth there on > occassion too.... Kanger gets a bit testy if you don't agree with him.... > > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 12 Feb 2002 17:31:16 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1B3EB.134A2FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable you wrote: I haven't been on the MLML list for a while, but it was heavily = moderated when I was there. There is a website with the rules on it at = http://members.aol.com/illinewek/ =20 I was on that list for a while.....it's a joke. More idiots per capita = than you can imagine. You should hear the notions some of them hold = regarding ballistics. Whoo Hoo I told them that my time with them was saucered and blowed and bailed. Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1B3EB.134A2FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
you wrote:
I haven't been on the MLML list for a while, but it = was=20 heavily moderated when I was there.  There is a website with the = rules on=20 it at http://members.aol.com/illinewek/ =20
 
I was on that list for a while.....it's a = joke.  More=20 idiots per capita than you can imagine.  You should hear the = notions some=20 of them hold regarding ballistics.  Whoo Hoo
I told them that my time with them was saucered and = blowed and=20 bailed.
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1B3EB.134A2FC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 12 Feb 2002 17:40:23 -0800 does anyone know how to get creosote off my canvas tent ? Mineral Spirits should take it out. Pendleton " Youth, is wasted on the young ! " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 12 Feb 2002 19:39:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C1B3FC.FC66A380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nope... you are not mistaken. It is 100% moderated. I got in a whizz = contest with the owner and was told that "You can't win a gunfight with = the list woner!!"... I am also on the "moderated" list and have been = told to watch it or I am probably the next to get booted. It's a great = list and I have learned alot, so I have been watching my p's and q's... Ad Miller ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C1B3FC.FC66A380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nope... you are not = mistaken. =20 It is 100% moderated.  I got in a whizz contest with the owner and = was told=20 that "You can't win a gunfight with the list woner!!"...  I am also = on the=20 "moderated" list and have been told to watch it or I am probably the = next to get=20 booted.  It's a great list and I have learned alot, so I have been = watching=20 my p's and q's...
 
Ad Miller
 
------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C1B3FC.FC66A380-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 12 Feb 2002 20:30:14 EST --part1_172.3829e13.299b1ba6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/2002 2:07:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, SWcushing@aol.com writes: > Kanger gets a bit testy if you don't agree with him.... ya think, Magpie? Yes, Sam it's WAY moderated, by multiple moderators, and they keep it in line for it's established purpose. Lots of good info there, and many of us belong to both; others that shared HUGE amounts of knowledge have been cut off of MLML for their disagreements with the list owner, but are thankfully still here.... Glad to have you aboard, and hopefully one day we'll share a campfire together. Barney --part1_172.3829e13.299b1ba6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/2002 2:07:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, SWcushing@aol.com writes:


Kanger gets a bit testy if you don't agree with him....


ya think, Magpie?  <EG>    Yes, Sam it's WAY moderated, by multiple moderators, and they keep it in line for it's established purpose.  Lots of good info there, and many of us belong to both; others that shared HUGE amounts of knowledge have been cut off of MLML for their disagreements with the list owner, but are thankfully still here....  Glad to have you aboard, and hopefully one day we'll share a campfire together.  Barney   --part1_172.3829e13.299b1ba6_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article Date: 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST --part1_118.c80d39c.299b2375_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or knocking at my door, or whatever.">> Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on 'trapping'. How ironic. Internet Trolls Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's) time and energy... Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett' disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed virtually all of us in post(s). Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney --part1_118.c80d39c.299b2375_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails from a few on the list.  I really do not want anyone lingering around or knocking at my door, or whatever.">>

Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on 'trapping'.  How ironic.

Internet Trolls

Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's) time and energy...

Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett' disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed virtually all of us in post(s).

Like the website says...  if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best to ignore rather than encourage them.      Barney

--part1_118.c80d39c.299b2375_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: MLML Date: 12 Feb 2002 20:10:28 -0600 Magpie said, And that is stating the situation delicately. Barney said, < others that shared HUGE amounts of knowledge have been cut off of MLML for their disagreements with the list owner> I shared what little I could and made many friends via MLML. However, I too was cut off because I disagreed with Dave Kangar, the list owner. In point: He stated there is no flint in the U.S. I quoted a renowned geologist who stated that there are many vast deposits of flint through out the U.S. Of course, any one who has ever set foot outdoors in many parts of America knows that. My posted proof was my undoing. Now, a mouthpiece for Kangar says I can get back on the list if I apologize. Apologize? I'll not comment on that so that this posting can remain suitable for family consumption. Frank Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article Date: 12 Feb 2002 20:18:01 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C1B402.5E820C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barney, Frankly, I did not pay attention to the earlier posting about trolls, = and had put he/she/it Garrett in the mental waste basket. After just = rereading all of the correspondence from blond40DD...@hotmail... and = then the complete troll site, I have the impression that you are right = on point. So, the delete button still works, and I, for one, fairly or = not, will not play with Sue anymore. So much for the Master of the = Universe Trapper Brother, and he had SO much wisdom to impart. As I = reread the material, I almost felt like I was dealing with a spiritual = medium raising the voice of one no longer with us. Anyway, Barney, thanks for the suggestion. Paul =20 P.S. Dennis, you win. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: LivingInThePast@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:03 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list = e-mails from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering = around or knocking at my door, or whatever.">> Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what = you may be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a = thread on 'trapping'. How ironic. Internet Trolls Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I = think you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your = (and a list's) time and energy...=20 Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint = Garrett' disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, = and slammed virtually all of us in post(s).=20 Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, = it's best to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C1B402.5E820C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Barney,
 
Frankly, I did not pay attention to the = earlier=20 posting about trolls, and had put he/she/it Garrett in the mental waste=20 basket.  After just rereading all of the correspondence from=20 blond40DD...@hotmail... and then the complete troll site, I have the = impression=20 that you are right on point.  So, the delete button still works, = and I, for=20 one, fairly or not, will not play with Sue anymore. So much for = the Master=20 of the Universe Trapper Brother, and he had SO much wisdom to = impart.  As I=20 reread the material, I almost felt like I was dealing with a spiritual = medium=20 raising the voice of one no longer with us.
 
Anyway, Barney, thanks for the=20 suggestion.
 
Paul 
 
P.S.  Dennis, you = win.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 LivingInThePast@aol.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, = 2002 8:03=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB = Trapping'=20 Article

blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been = getting some=20 ardent off-list e-mails from a few on the list.  I really do not = want=20 anyone lingering around or knocking at my door, or=20 whatever.">>

Folks, once=20 again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may be = dealing=20 with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on = 'trapping'. =20 How ironic.

Internet=20 Trolls

Please = take the time=20 to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think you'll come to = understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's) time = and=20 energy...

Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about = the time=20 'Clint Garrett' disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since = that=20 time, and slammed virtually all of us in post(s).

Like the = website=20 says...  if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best to = ignore=20 rather than encourage them.      Barney=20

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C1B402.5E820C80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article Date: 12 Feb 2002 19:37:40 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_00de.0c9c.3d49 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, Welcome to the club..nice to have you aboard! Todd On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:18:01 -0600 "Paul Jones" writes: Barney, Frankly, I did not pay attention to the earlier posting about trolls, and had put he/she/it Garrett in the mental waste basket. After just rereading all of the correspondence from blond40DD...@hotmail... and then the complete troll site, I have the impression that you are right on point. So, the delete button still works, and I, for one, fairly or not, will not play with Sue anymore. So much for the Master of the Universe Trapper Brother, and he had SO much wisdom to impart. As I reread the material, I almost felt like I was dealing with a spiritual medium raising the voice of one no longer with us. Anyway, Barney, thanks for the suggestion. Paul P.S. Dennis, you win. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:03 PM blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or knocking at my door, or whatever.">> Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on 'trapping'. How ironic. Internet Trolls Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's) time and energy... Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett' disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed virtually all of us in post(s). Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ----__JNP_000_00de.0c9c.3d49 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Paul,
 
Welcome to the club..nice to have you aboard!
 
Todd
 
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:18:01 -0600 "Paul Jones" <pwjones@myexcel.com> writes:
Barney,
 
Frankly, I did not pay attention to the = earlier=20 posting about trolls, and had put he/she/it Garrett in the mental waste=20 basket.  After just rereading all of the correspondence from=20 blond40DD...@hotmail... and then the complete troll site, I have the=20 impression that you are right on point.  So, the delete button still= =20 works, and I, for one, fairly or not, will not play with Sue anymore. So = much=20 for the Master of the Universe Trapper Brother, and he had SO much = wisdom=20 to impart.  As I reread the material, I almost felt like I was = dealing=20 with a spiritual medium raising the voice of one no longer with=20 us.
 
Anyway, Barney, thanks for the=20 suggestion.
 
Paul 
 
P.S.  Dennis, you win.
----- Original Message -----
= LivingInThePast@aol.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <= /DIV>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002= 8:03=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB = Trapping'=20 Article

blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been = getting some=20 ardent off-list e-mails from a few on the list.  I really do not = want=20 anyone lingering around or knocking at my door, or=20 whatever.">>

Folks,=20 once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may = be=20 dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on=20 'trapping'.  How ironic.

Internet=20 Trolls

Please = take the=20 time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think you'll = come to=20 understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's) time and= =20 energy...

Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about = the=20 time 'Clint Garrett' disappeared; has created plenty of controversy = since=20 that time, and slammed virtually all of us in post(s).

Like the= =20 website says...  if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's = best to=20 ignore rather than encourage them.      Barney= =20

 

"Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784
= ----__JNP_000_00de.0c9c.3d49-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 12 Feb 2002 22:13:29 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_74db.6fab.2776 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lANNY---and AD--and all YOU BAILED I GOT KICKED OFF---FOR SPEAKING MY MIND TO THE LIST OWNER WHO IS A JOKE ----HE IS ASO MEMBER OF THIS LIST ---HE NEEDS TO GET A LIFE AND FIND THE PROPER DRUGS OR LIBATION TO FIX HIS EGO---AND YES I AM SHOUTING--- is that a nuff said or what---lanny you are like myself---dont mence many words---if i hurt your feelings i'm sorry but sometimes things need to be said and direct--if i am wrong i will be the first to admit it-- Nuff said ---and i posted all my info to. "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:31:16 -0600 "Lanney Ratcliff" writes: you wrote: I haven't been on the MLML list for a while, but it was heavily moderated when I was there. There is a website with the rules on it at http://members.aol.com/illinewek/ I was on that list for a while.....it's a joke. More idiots per capita than you can imagine. You should hear the notions some of them hold regarding ballistics. Whoo Hoo I told them that my time with them was saucered and blowed and bailed. Lanney Ratcliff ----__JNP_000_74db.6fab.2776 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
lANNY---and AD--and all
YOU BAILED I GOT KICKED OFF---FOR SPEAKING MY MIND TO THE LIST OWNER = WHO IS=20 A JOKE ----HE IS ASO  MEMBER OF THIS LIST ---HE NEEDS TO GET A LIFE = AND=20 FIND THE PROPER DRUGS OR LIBATION TO FIX HIS EGO---AND YES I AM=20 SHOUTING---
 
is that a nuff said or what---lanny you are like myself---dont mence = many=20 words---if i hurt your feelings i'm sorry but sometimes things need to be=20 said  and direct--if i am wrong i will be the first to admit it--
 
Nuff said ---and i posted all my info to.
 
"HAWK"
Michael Pierce   "Home of the "Old Grizz  (C)= =20 product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr
Palm= =20 Harbor,   Florida   =20 34684           &= nbsp;=20 Phone: 1-727-771-1815
e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com   web=20 site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

 
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:31:16 -0600 "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> writes:
you wrote:
I haven't been on the MLML list for a while, but it = was=20 heavily moderated when I was there.  There is a website with the = rules on=20 it at http://members.aol.com/illinewek/ = ;=20
 
I was on that list for a while.....it's a joke. = More=20 idiots per capita than you can imagine.  You should hear the notions= some=20 of them hold regarding ballistics.  Whoo Hoo
I told them that my time with them was saucered and = blowed=20 and bailed.
Lanney Ratcliff
 

----__JNP_000_74db.6fab.2776-- ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article Date: 12 Feb 2002 20:04:55 -0800 Pablo, Barney is a brother whose observations are ALWAYS right on point. Except, don't ask him if you should sleep with a loaded and capped pistola under yer pillow. He's bound ta be a leettle testy about that question ... And on the other thing ... Dennis usually wins. Never argue with a guy who makes weapons for a living, and drinks a dram for a hobby. I'm sure that advice would come straight from Barney, to. B'st'rd, just down from the cold high desert (to the warm, smoggy fukdup metropolis. Damm.) > Paul Jones wrote: > > Barney, > > Frankly, I did not pay attention to the earlier posting about trolls, > and had put he/she/it Garrett in the mental waste basket. After just > rereading all of the correspondence from blond40DD...@hotmail... and > then the complete troll site, I have the impression that you are right > on point. So, the delete button still works, and I, for one, fairly > or not, will not play with Sue anymore. So much for the Master of the > Universe Trapper Brother, and he had SO much wisdom to impart. As I > reread the material, I almost felt like I was dealing with a spiritual > medium raising the voice of one no longer with us. > > Anyway, Barney, thanks for the suggestion. > > Paul > > P.S. Dennis, you win. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: LivingInThePast@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:03 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article > > blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent > off-list e-mails from a few on the list. I really do not > want anyone lingering around or knocking at my door, or > whatever.">> > > Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to > learn what you may be dealing with here. The above statement > was thrown into a thread on 'trapping'. How ironic. > > Internet Trolls > > Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL > TROLLS, and I think you'll come to understand how they are > capable of wasting your (and a list's) time and energy... > > Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time > 'Clint Garrett' disappeared; has created plenty of > controversy since that time, and slammed virtually all of us > in post(s). > > Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a > Troll, it's best to ignore rather than encourage them. > Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 12 Feb 2002 22:22:51 -0600 I wondered if anybody would bite on that. You wrote me off list but I will respond to the list because it is a bit of nearly forgotten history. For many years it was the custom of "country" people...men almost exclusively..... in this part of the world to "saucer" their coffee. That is, they would have their coffee in a cup, sitting in a saucer. They would gently tip the cup a little, spilling a quantity into the saucer. They would sit the cup aside and pick up the saucer using the thumb and two forefingers of each hand and "blowed" the coffee to cool it a tad. Generally the coffee was drunk directly from the saucer with a loud slurp, which ticked off the womenfolk to no end. And when your coffee was all "saucered and blowed" you were finished with your coffee. Pretty rural. Used to be pretty common but is almost unheard of anymore. Anybody who still does it is likely to be wearing kakhi pants and cotton suspenders, smell of Garretts dry snuff and can tell tales of WWI. A tiny tidbit of history that was once common but is largely forgotten now and will never be mentioned in the history books. Lanney ps: My wife just read this and said that she saw her granddaddy and her uncle Bill do it a thousand times. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:56 PM > Ummm ... Lanney ... could you translate this part from Texican for me? > > B'st'rd > > > Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > > > > I told them that my time with them was saucered and blowed and bailed. > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: MtMan-List: Demmick info Date: 12 Feb 2002 23:53:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0262_01C1B420.89D55FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have source on internet for pictures of Demmick Rifles? Im having little luck finding via web search engines. Thanks Sam ------=_NextPart_000_0262_01C1B420.89D55FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone have source on internet for = pictures
of Demmick Rifles?
Im having little luck finding via web = search=20 engines.
Thanks
Sam
------=_NextPart_000_0262_01C1B420.89D55FE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article Date: 12 Feb 2002 22:20:41 -0800 In my recent travels in the desert I came across more strong evidence of trapping success; I present for your inspection a mess of peetreefied beaver tails. I guess that modern trappers don't need to eat these tender parts anymore and just pile 'em up to wither away. ftp://ftp.mindspring.com/users/lray/DSCF1144.jpg B'st'rd (If this link doesn't float your stick please reply to me off-list and I will send you the image as an attachment by way of reply. Some people can't get this FTP server to work for them.) > Pablo wrote: > > Since the article has been questioned to this degree, I am sending a > copy of it to a friend from Kansas, who, over the course of some years > of hard effort, has actually trapped several thousand beaver, > including over 350 during a 3-1/2 week period several years ago, while > trapping on the Arkansas River. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20MLML?= Date: 13 Feb 2002 01:52:40 EST In a message dated 2/12/02 6:11:54 PM, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << I shared what little I could and made many friends via MLML. However, I too was cut off because I disagreed with Dave Kangar, the list owner. >> Haaaaaaa......and I thought it was just my bad attitude! Naw....ole=20 Kanger just lacks a bit in the social graces. It was a good list, but it may= =20 well be he ends up the only one on it. Magpie =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 06:56:32 -0500 Lanney, My Dad used to do that, thanks for reminding me, brought a grin to my mug this morning.... D ----- Original Message ----- Cc: "JW Stephens" Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:22 PM > I wondered if anybody would bite on that. You wrote me off list but I will > respond to the list because it is a bit of nearly forgotten history. > For many years it was the custom of "country" people...men almost > exclusively..... in this part of the world to "saucer" their coffee. That > is, they would have their coffee in a cup, sitting in a saucer. They would > gently tip the cup a little, spilling a quantity into the saucer. They > would sit the cup aside and pick up the saucer using the thumb and two > forefingers of each hand and "blowed" the coffee to cool it a tad. > Generally the coffee was drunk directly from the saucer with a loud slurp, > which ticked off the womenfolk to no end. And when your coffee was all > "saucered and blowed" you were finished with your coffee. > Pretty rural. Used to be pretty common but is almost unheard of anymore. > Anybody who still does it is likely to be wearing kakhi pants and cotton > suspenders, smell of Garretts dry snuff and can tell tales of WWI. > A tiny tidbit of history that was once common but is largely forgotten now > and will never be mentioned in the history books. > Lanney > ps: My wife just read this and said that she saw her granddaddy and her > uncle Bill do it a thousand times. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JW Stephens" > To: "Lanney Ratcliff" > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:56 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > Ummm ... Lanney ... could you translate this part from Texican for me? > > > > B'st'rd > > > > > Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > > > > > > I told them that my time with them was saucered and blowed and bailed. > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Bowling" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:09:47 -0600 It brought back good memories for me to D. When I was a youngen my grandma would give us coffee in a saucer with a piece of bread with sugar and butter on it .Shinning times they was. MM ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:56 AM > Lanney, > My Dad used to do that, thanks for reminding me, brought a grin to my mug > this morning.... > D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lanney Ratcliff" > To: "History List" > Cc: "JW Stephens" > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:22 PM > Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > I wondered if anybody would bite on that. You wrote me off list but I > will > > respond to the list because it is a bit of nearly forgotten history. > > For many years it was the custom of "country" people...men almost > > exclusively..... in this part of the world to "saucer" their coffee. That > > is, they would have their coffee in a cup, sitting in a saucer. They > would > > gently tip the cup a little, spilling a quantity into the saucer. They > > would sit the cup aside and pick up the saucer using the thumb and two > > forefingers of each hand and "blowed" the coffee to cool it a tad. > > Generally the coffee was drunk directly from the saucer with a loud slurp, > > which ticked off the womenfolk to no end. And when your coffee was all > > "saucered and blowed" you were finished with your coffee. > > Pretty rural. Used to be pretty common but is almost unheard of anymore. > > Anybody who still does it is likely to be wearing kakhi pants and cotton > > suspenders, smell of Garretts dry snuff and can tell tales of WWI. > > A tiny tidbit of history that was once common but is largely forgotten now > > and will never be mentioned in the history books. > > Lanney > > ps: My wife just read this and said that she saw her granddaddy and her > > uncle Bill do it a thousand times. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "JW Stephens" > > To: "Lanney Ratcliff" > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:56 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > > > > Ummm ... Lanney ... could you translate this part from Texican for me? > > > > > > B'st'rd > > > > > > > Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > > > > > > > > I told them that my time with them was saucered and blowed and bailed. > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:05:11 -0500 MM. That ain't the East Kentucky kin, is it??? D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 10:09 AM > It brought back good memories for me to D. When I was a youngen my grandma > would give us coffee in a saucer with a piece of bread with sugar and butter > on it .Shinning times they was. > MM > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Double Edge Forge" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:56 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > Lanney, > > My Dad used to do that, thanks for reminding me, brought a grin to my mug > > this morning.... > > D > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lanney Ratcliff" > > To: "History List" > > Cc: "JW Stephens" > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:22 PM > > Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > > > > I wondered if anybody would bite on that. You wrote me off list but I > > will > > > respond to the list because it is a bit of nearly forgotten history. > > > For many years it was the custom of "country" people...men almost > > > exclusively..... in this part of the world to "saucer" their coffee. > That > > > is, they would have their coffee in a cup, sitting in a saucer. They > > would > > > gently tip the cup a little, spilling a quantity into the saucer. They > > > would sit the cup aside and pick up the saucer using the thumb and two > > > forefingers of each hand and "blowed" the coffee to cool it a tad. > > > Generally the coffee was drunk directly from the saucer with a loud > slurp, > > > which ticked off the womenfolk to no end. And when your coffee was all > > > "saucered and blowed" you were finished with your coffee. > > > Pretty rural. Used to be pretty common but is almost unheard of > anymore. > > > Anybody who still does it is likely to be wearing kakhi pants and cotton > > > suspenders, smell of Garretts dry snuff and can tell tales of WWI. > > > A tiny tidbit of history that was once common but is largely forgotten > now > > > and will never be mentioned in the history books. > > > Lanney > > > ps: My wife just read this and said that she saw her granddaddy and her > > > uncle Bill do it a thousand times. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "JW Stephens" > > > To: "Lanney Ratcliff" > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:56 PM > > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > > > > > > > Ummm ... Lanney ... could you translate this part from Texican for me? > > > > > > > > B'st'rd > > > > > > > > > Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I told them that my time with them was saucered and blowed and > bailed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:08:03 -0500 Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > For many years it was the custom of "country" people...men almost exclusively..... in this part of the world to "saucer" their coffee. This is how my Great Grandfather taught me to drink coffee and is the way I drink it to this day, if I have have a saucer. I never could figgure out why it bothers the wimmon so much! > > Anybody who still does it is likely to be wearing kakhi pants and cotton suspenders, smell of Garretts dry snuff and can tell tales of WWI. No, I wear broadfalls or overalls and I don't like tobacco. I can tell tales of primitive campouts, does that count? LOL Possum Southern Cherokee Nation "I was born upon the prairie where the wind blew free and there was nothing to break the light of the sun. I was born where there were no enclosures and where everything drew a free breath. I want to die there, not within walls." --Ten Bears, Yamparika Comanche ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Bowling" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:24:29 -0600 No not them. They don't which side the butter goes on. MM ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 8:05 AM > MM. > That ain't the East Kentucky kin, is it??? > D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Bowling" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 10:09 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > It brought back good memories for me to D. When I was a youngen my grandma > > would give us coffee in a saucer with a piece of bread with sugar and > butter > > on it .Shinning times they was. > > MM > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Double Edge Forge" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:56 AM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > > > > Lanney, > > > My Dad used to do that, thanks for reminding me, brought a grin to my > mug > > > this morning.... > > > D > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Lanney Ratcliff" > > > To: "History List" > > > Cc: "JW Stephens" > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:22 PM > > > Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > > > > > > > I wondered if anybody would bite on that. You wrote me off list but I > > > will > > > > respond to the list because it is a bit of nearly forgotten history. > > > > For many years it was the custom of "country" people...men almost > > > > exclusively..... in this part of the world to "saucer" their coffee. > > That > > > > is, they would have their coffee in a cup, sitting in a saucer. They > > > would > > > > gently tip the cup a little, spilling a quantity into the saucer. > They > > > > would sit the cup aside and pick up the saucer using the thumb and two > > > > forefingers of each hand and "blowed" the coffee to cool it a tad. > > > > Generally the coffee was drunk directly from the saucer with a loud > > slurp, > > > > which ticked off the womenfolk to no end. And when your coffee was > all > > > > "saucered and blowed" you were finished with your coffee. > > > > Pretty rural. Used to be pretty common but is almost unheard of > > anymore. > > > > Anybody who still does it is likely to be wearing kakhi pants and > cotton > > > > suspenders, smell of Garretts dry snuff and can tell tales of WWI. > > > > A tiny tidbit of history that was once common but is largely forgotten > > now > > > > and will never be mentioned in the history books. > > > > Lanney > > > > ps: My wife just read this and said that she saw her granddaddy and > her > > > > uncle Bill do it a thousand times. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "JW Stephens" > > > > To: "Lanney Ratcliff" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:56 PM > > > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ummm ... Lanney ... could you translate this part from Texican for > me? > > > > > > > > > > B'st'rd > > > > > > > > > > > Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I told them that my time with them was saucered and blowed and > > bailed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:16:12 -0500 Mike Just tryin' to get a rise outta ya.. D Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html Double Edge forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Bowling" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:32:47 -0600 D Maybe have a saucer full of coffee with ya this sun. MM ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 8:16 AM > > Mike > Just tryin' to get a rise outta ya.. > D > > Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain > Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". > > > AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html > Double Edge forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ > Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ > Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ > > see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:25:36 -0500 MM Ye got it... D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 10:32 AM > D > Maybe have a saucer full of coffee with ya this sun. > MM > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Double Edge Forge" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 8:16 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic > > > > > > Mike > > Just tryin' to get a rise outta ya.. > > D > > > > Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM] (American Mountain > > Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle". > > > > > > AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html > > Double Edge forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/ > > Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/ > > Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/ > > > > see the AMM site for more supporters of this event. > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 10:42:05 -0500 Magpie wrote: > Haaaaa..... Don't feel bad Sam, I was told to shut my mouth there on occassion too.... Kanger gets a bit testy if you don't agree with him.... LOL, Kanger sure didn't like my posts about cleaning my gun with "Rocket Fuel"! He don't even like my sig file! Possum Southern Cherokee Nation "I was born upon the prairie where the wind blew free and there was nothing to break the light of the sun. I was born where there were no enclosures and where everything drew a free breath. I want to die there, not within walls." --Ten Bears, Yamparika Comanche ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 08:59:21 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1B46C.BA1B3F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WindWalker=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: MtMan-List: off topic Am I paranoid? Or is the "other list {mlml} totally moderated? I'm up to 17 posts being rejected 2 for "unproper wording" i.e use of name stores. Just wondering, as I know not different Sam=20 Sam, The other list is moderated. Sometimes 100%, some times selectively, = sometimes not at all. But it does not have any flame wars and people who = insist on being silly (read that rude or full of themselves) don't last. = The rules are not difficult to adhere to if one is willing but if not, = there are plenty of very knowledgeable folks and interesting folks who = are willing to abide to make it a very informative and friendly place to = share ideas.=20 Not having any idea what you have tried to post to the other list I can = only surmise that you have failed to abide by some of the simple rules = that allow your posts to go through with automatic regularity. There is = no particular "proper" format other than staying on topic (which boils = down to keeping it civil and about muzzle loading) and not quoting any = more of the message your responding to beyond what it takes to let folks = know what your talking about. Usually 5 lines of the previous message is = the limit. (Pretty much as I have done here)=20 If your post goes over that, it is automatically sent back to you by the = "mechanical" server all the messages go through. Not by a real person. = That automatic server will weed out over quoting of the previous = message, certain course or inflammatory words or phrases, but pays no = attention to your spelling or sentence structure. Not all of us have = good typing skills or good knowledge of these infernal machines and such = is not required. What we're interested in here and on the mlml is good = folks sharing their knowledge and ideas in a civil, helpful manner. In your first few messages to the list your expected to share some basic = information about yourself so that folks have a chance to "know you", = which is important since we are not setting across a fire from each = other. To weed out people who have hidden agendas, the first few posts = from any new member are reviewed by a live moderator. No posts are = rejected that are on topic and are following the simple rules = established. But the bottom line seems to be whether you care enough or have enough = respect for the others who abide by the rules to abide by them yourself. = And no one is too old to learn new tricks or learn how to play by the = rules.=20 < I'm to old to be waiting on pups to either approve my context/spelling = etc or disapprove... 35 things must be in orger to post and wind must be from south etc. = etc.....> Unless much has changed since I took my turn as a moderator on that = list, no one is approving your context/spelling, etc. only reviewing = that your following the rules. If you have problems with that then you = probably shouldn't be on that list. It's of course your choice. But you = will miss out on much good information just as the other members will = miss out on what you have to bring to the table. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1B46C.BA1B3F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message = -----
From:=20 WindWalker
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, = 2002=20 12:28 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: off = topic

Am I paranoid?
Or is the "other list {mlml} = totally=20 moderated?
I'm up to 17 posts being=20 rejected
2 for "unproper wording" i.e use = of name=20 stores.
Just wondering, as I know not=20 different
Sam=20
 
Sam,
 
The other list is moderated. Sometimes = 100%, some=20 times selectively, sometimes not at all. But it does not have any flame = wars and=20 people who insist on being silly (read that rude or full of themselves) = don't=20 last. The rules are not difficult to adhere to if one is willing but if = not,=20 there are plenty of very knowledgeable folks and interesting folks who = are=20 willing to abide to make it a very informative and friendly place to = share=20 ideas.
 
Not having any idea what you have tried = to post to=20 the other list I can only surmise that you have failed to abide by some = of the=20 simple rules that allow your posts to go through with automatic = regularity.=20 There is no particular "proper" format other than staying on topic = (which boils=20 down to keeping it civil and about muzzle loading) and not quoting any = more of=20 the message your responding to beyond what it takes to let folks know = what your=20 talking about. Usually 5 lines of the previous message is the limit. = (Pretty=20 much as I have done here)
 
If your post goes over that, it is = automatically=20 sent back to you by the "mechanical" server all the messages go through. = Not by=20 a real person. That automatic server will weed out over quoting of the = previous=20 message, certain course or inflammatory words or phrases, but pays no = attention=20 to your spelling or sentence structure. Not all of us have good typing = skills or=20 good knowledge of these infernal machines and such is not required. What = we're=20 interested in here and on the mlml is good folks sharing their knowledge = and ideas in a civil, helpful manner.
 
In your first few messages to the list = your=20 expected to share some basic information about yourself so that folks = have a=20 chance to "know you", which is important since we are not setting across = a fire=20 from each other. To weed out people who have hidden agendas, the = first few=20 posts from any new member are reviewed by a live moderator. No = posts are=20 rejected that are on topic and are following the simple rules=20 established.
 
But the bottom line seems to be whether = you care=20 enough or have enough respect for the others who abide by the rules to = abide by=20 them yourself.
 
And no one is too old to learn new = tricks or learn=20 how to play by the rules.
 
< I'm to old to be waiting on pups = to either=20 approve my context/spelling etc or disapprove...
35 things must be in orger to post and = wind must be=20 from south etc. etc.....>
 
Unless much has changed since I took my turn as a moderator on that = list,=20 no one is approving your context/spelling, etc. only reviewing that your = following the rules. If you have problems with that then you probably = shouldn't=20 be on that list. It's of course your choice. But you will miss out on = much good=20 information just as the other members will miss out on what you have to = bring to=20 the table.
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1B46C.BA1B3F20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 10:59:29 -0500 MAybe he dont like NA,s? Met a few like that myself.. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 10:42 AM > Magpie wrote: > > Haaaaa..... Don't feel bad Sam, I was told to shut my mouth there on > occassion too.... Kanger gets a bit testy if you don't agree with him.... > > LOL, Kanger sure didn't like my posts about cleaning my gun with "Rocket > Fuel"! He don't even like my sig file! > > Possum > Southern Cherokee Nation > "I was born upon the prairie where the wind blew free and there was nothing > to break the light of the sun. I was born where there were no enclosures and > where everything drew a free breath. I want to die there, not within > walls." --Ten Bears, Yamparika Comanche > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Demmick info Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:10:55 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_66c3.4575.66d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:53:58 -0500 "WindWalker" writes: Does anyone have source on internet for pictures of Demmick Rifles? Im having little luck finding via web search engines. Thanks Sam SAM don steith makes dimick rifles copied from his original ---can link you up with him if that is what you want---they are very similar to a hawken except for the trigger guard and the keys a outstanding offhand gun usually of smaller caliber than a hawken---most dimicks also have brass hardware but some were made in steel--BTW they were also a st louis gun---they were located at 38 north main in st louis in 1859-60---there is a nice picture on page 35 of hansons book " the plains rifle" suggest you look up H.E. Dimick and co which was located in st louis mo in the 1800's---they are on the tax rolls and there is some documentation there also---a copy of the dimick barrel stamp is on page 56 of hansons book also--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ----__JNP_000_66c3.4575.66d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:53:58 -0500 "WindWalker" <windwalker@fastmail.fm>=20 writes:
Does anyone have source on internet for= =20 pictures
of Demmick Rifles?
Im having little luck finding via web = search=20 engines.
Thanks
Sam
 
SAM
don steith makes dimick rifles copied from his original ---can link = you up=20 with him if that is what you want---they are very similar to a hawken = except for=20 the trigger guard and the keys  a outstanding offhand gun usually of=20 smaller caliber than a hawken---most dimicks also have brass hardware but = some=20 were made in steel--BTW they were also a st louis gun---they were located = at 38=20 north main in st louis in 1859-60---there is a nice picture on page 35 of=20 hansons book " the plains rifle"
 
suggest you look up H.E. Dimick and co which was located in st louis = mo in=20 the 1800's---they are on the tax rolls and there is some documentation = there=20 also---a copy of the dimick barrel stamp is on page 56 of hansons book=20 also---

"HAWK"
Michael Pierce   "Home of the "Old Grizz = (C)=20 product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr
Palm= =20 Harbor,   Florida   =20 34684           &= nbsp;=20 Phone: 1-727-771-1815
e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com   web=20 site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
----__JNP_000_66c3.4575.66d3-- ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MLML Date: 13 Feb 2002 10:15:45 -0700 He has put Ad Miller on warning, and he is one of the moderators. Kicked "Hawk" off and who knows how many others. GENE ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:52 PM In a message dated 2/12/02 6:11:54 PM, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << I shared what little I could and made many friends via MLML. However, I too was cut off because I disagreed with Dave Kangar, the list owner. >> Haaaaaaa......and I thought it was just my bad attitude! Naw....ole Kanger just lacks a bit in the social graces. It was a good list, but it may well be he ends up the only one on it. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:23:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C1B480.D4F7AEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well Sir I see you denote I dont follow rules. Far from the truth, To me its more like one has to be in the click, before one can post. Posts turned down for a brief sentence about a product form Walmart? Then a off line message as to "rules" and no modern guns allowed? Then we see posts on Remington 700,s? Naw dont cut it indeed. Was turned down right off to join the list because of my name... I really think was turned down due to my heritage.. A fully moderated list is just that Moderated So as to insure the thoughts and rules of the Owner, Think King George had those same line of thoughts. Im sure "that" list has alot of good people on it indeed And your statement "playing by the rules"??? There are no rules even the owner states he can change the "rules" at = any time, and if you dont like then tough! Seems to me to be more of a control factor, thus having power in hands = to run off members and delete posts at will, thus giving a contol one = apparently has no where else. One cant bring much if anything to the table if the majority of posts = are rejected can one? But as i see it , if i change my thinking and take up the rules and = beliefs of the persons so deleting my posts then to I can become one-of = the boys? eh? Naw.. that dont fly... To many on that list I know, have wrote me telling me what a absolute = (*&&%@@!! he or someone is.. I think alot there are on the list to share the hobby, and tolerate the = nonsense...to a point. And if you took turn as moderator, did you not have to fall inline with = owners wishes and thoughts? Funny I have a whole sent file on rejected posts... some for no reason.. Myself, I think its just a whim of someone to mess with somebody.... Bet these same types of people sneak into Rondys incognito, cause i dont = think they would walk in letting all know who they were indeed. My thoughts on you post only.. And myself abiding totally by someone else,s rules, when others are = apparently gettin away with alot?? Naw.. but maybe thats just why in olden days. there were "company" = trappers... and then again there were "Freetrappers" Your thoughts so noted. sam ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rtlahti=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 11:59 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WindWalker=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: MtMan-List: off topic Am I paranoid? Or is the "other list {mlml} totally moderated? I'm up to 17 posts being rejected 2 for "unproper wording" i.e use of name stores. Just wondering, as I know not different Sam=20 Sam, The other list is moderated. Sometimes 100%, some times selectively, = sometimes not at all. But it does not have any flame wars and people who = insist on being silly (read that rude or full of themselves) don't last. = The rules are not difficult to adhere to if one is willing but if not, = there are plenty of very knowledgeable folks and interesting folks who = are willing to abide to make it a very informative and friendly place to = share ideas.=20 Not having any idea what you have tried to post to the other list I = can only surmise that you have failed to abide by some of the simple = rules that allow your posts to go through with automatic regularity. = There is no particular "proper" format other than staying on topic = (which boils down to keeping it civil and about muzzle loading) and not = quoting any more of the message your responding to beyond what it takes = to let folks know what your talking about. Usually 5 lines of the = previous message is the limit. (Pretty much as I have done here)=20 If your post goes over that, it is automatically sent back to you by = the "mechanical" server all the messages go through. Not by a real = person. That automatic server will weed out over quoting of the previous = message, certain course or inflammatory words or phrases, but pays no = attention to your spelling or sentence structure. Not all of us have = good typing skills or good knowledge of these infernal machines and such = is not required. What we're interested in here and on the mlml is good = folks sharing their knowledge and ideas in a civil, helpful manner. In your first few messages to the list your expected to share some = basic information about yourself so that folks have a chance to "know = you", which is important since we are not setting across a fire from = each other. To weed out people who have hidden agendas, the first few = posts from any new member are reviewed by a live moderator. No posts are = rejected that are on topic and are following the simple rules = established. But the bottom line seems to be whether you care enough or have enough = respect for the others who abide by the rules to abide by them yourself. = And no one is too old to learn new tricks or learn how to play by the = rules.=20 < I'm to old to be waiting on pups to either approve my = context/spelling etc or disapprove...=20 35 things must be in orger to post and wind must be from south etc. = etc.....> Unless much has changed since I took my turn as a moderator on that = list, no one is approving your context/spelling, etc. only reviewing = that your following the rules. If you have problems with that then you = probably shouldn't be on that list. It's of course your choice. But you = will miss out on much good information just as the other members will = miss out on what you have to bring to the table. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C1B480.D4F7AEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well Sir
I see you denote I dont follow = rules.
Far from the truth,
To me its more like one has to be in = the click,=20 before one
can post.
Posts turned down for a brief sentence = about a=20 product form Walmart?
Then a off line message as to "rules" = and no modern=20 guns allowed?
Then we see posts on Remington = 700,s?
Naw dont cut it indeed.
Was turned down right off to join the = list because=20 of my name...
I really think was turned down due to = my=20 heritage..
A fully moderated list is just that=20 Moderated
So as to insure the thoughts and rules = of the=20 Owner,
Think King George had those same line = of=20 thoughts.
Im sure "that" list has alot of good = people on it=20 indeed
And your statement "playing by the=20 rules"???
There are no rules even the owner = states he can=20 change the "rules" at any time, and if you dont like then = tough!
Seems to me to be more of a control = factor, thus=20 having power in hands to run off members and delete posts at will, thus = giving a=20 contol one apparently has no where else.
One cant bring much if anything to the = table if the=20 majority of posts are rejected can one?
But as i see it , if i change my = thinking and take=20 up the rules and beliefs of the persons so deleting my posts then to I = can=20 become one-of the boys? eh?
Naw.. that dont fly...
To many on that list I know, have wrote = me telling=20 me what a absolute (*&&%@@!!  he or someone = is..
I think alot there are on the list to = share the=20 hobby, and tolerate the nonsense...to a point.
And if you took turn as moderator, did = you not have=20 to fall inline with owners wishes and thoughts?
Funny I have a whole sent file on = rejected posts...=20 some for no reason..
Myself, I think its just a whim of = someone to mess=20 with somebody....
Bet these same types of people sneak = into Rondys=20 incognito, cause i dont think they would walk in letting all know who = they were=20 indeed.
My thoughts on you post = only..
And myself abiding totally by someone = else,s rules,=20 when others are apparently gettin away with alot??
Naw.. but maybe thats just why in olden = days. there=20 were "company" trappers... and then again there were = "Freetrappers"
Your thoughts so noted.
sam
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 rtlahti =
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, = 2002 11:59=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off = topic

 
----- Original Message = -----=20
From:=20 WindWalker
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Tuesday, February = 19, 2002=20 12:28 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: off=20 topic

Am I paranoid?
Or is the "other list {mlml} = totally=20 moderated?
I'm up to 17 posts being=20 rejected
2 for "unproper wording" i.e = use of name=20 stores.
Just wondering, as I know not=20 different
Sam=20
 
Sam,
 
The other list is moderated. = Sometimes 100%, some=20 times selectively, sometimes not at all. But it does not have any = flame wars=20 and people who insist on being silly (read that rude or full of = themselves)=20 don't last. The rules are not difficult to adhere to if one is willing = but if=20 not, there are plenty of very knowledgeable folks and interesting = folks who=20 are willing to abide to make it a very informative and friendly place = to share=20 ideas.
 
Not having any idea what you have = tried to post=20 to the other list I can only surmise that you have failed to abide by = some of=20 the simple rules that allow your posts to go through with automatic=20 regularity. There is no particular "proper" format other than staying = on topic=20 (which boils down to keeping it civil and about muzzle loading) and = not=20 quoting any more of the message your responding to beyond what it = takes to let=20 folks know what your talking about. Usually 5 lines of the previous = message is=20 the limit. (Pretty much as I have done here)
 
If your post goes over that, it is = automatically=20 sent back to you by the "mechanical" server all the messages go = through. Not=20 by a real person. That automatic server will weed out over quoting of = the=20 previous message, certain course or inflammatory words or phrases, but = pays no=20 attention to your spelling or sentence structure. Not all of us have = good=20 typing skills or good knowledge of these infernal machines and such is = not=20 required. What we're interested in here and on the mlml is good folks = sharing=20 their knowledge and ideas in a civil, helpful = manner.
 
In your first few messages to the = list your=20 expected to share some basic information about yourself so that folks = have a=20 chance to "know you", which is important since we are not setting = across a=20 fire from each other. To weed out people who have hidden = agendas, the=20 first few posts from any new member are reviewed by a live = moderator. No=20 posts are rejected that are on topic and are following the simple = rules=20 established.
 
But the bottom line seems to be = whether you care=20 enough or have enough respect for the others who abide by the rules to = abide=20 by them yourself.
 
And no one is too old to learn new = tricks or=20 learn how to play by the rules.
 
< I'm to old to be waiting on pups = to either=20 approve my context/spelling etc or disapprove...=20
35 things must be in orger to post = and wind must=20 be from south etc. etc.....>
 
Unless much has changed since I took my turn as a moderator on = that list,=20 no one is approving your context/spelling, etc. only reviewing that = your=20 following the rules. If you have problems with that then you probably=20 shouldn't be on that list. It's of course your choice. But you will = miss out=20 on much good information just as the other members will miss out on = what you=20 have to bring to the table.
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C1B480.D4F7AEA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Demmick info Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:27:11 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C1B481.61518D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks will do Got a letter from list owner other list lol Id better straighten up is basic context He still thinks Im someone he booted off sometime ago, because of my name He thinks Windwalker is a alias. Think he may be in for a surprize in more ways then one. Sam ----- Original Message -----=20 From: hawknest4@juno.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 11:10 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Demmick info On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:53:58 -0500 "WindWalker" = writes: Does anyone have source on internet for pictures of Demmick Rifles? Im having little luck finding via web search engines. Thanks Sam SAM don steith makes dimick rifles copied from his original ---can link = you up with him if that is what you want---they are very similar to a = hawken except for the trigger guard and the keys a outstanding offhand = gun usually of smaller caliber than a hawken---most dimicks also have = brass hardware but some were made in steel--BTW they were also a st = louis gun---they were located at 38 north main in st louis in = 1859-60---there is a nice picture on page 35 of hansons book " the = plains rifle" suggest you look up H.E. Dimick and co which was located in st louis = mo in the 1800's---they are on the tax rolls and there is some = documentation there also---a copy of the dimick barrel stamp is on page = 56 of hansons book also--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the = Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web = site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C1B481.61518D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks will do
Got a letter from list owner other list = lol
Id better straighten up is basic=20 context
He still thinks Im someone he booted=20 off
sometime ago, because of my = name
He thinks Windwalker is a = alias.
Think he may be in for a surprize in = more ways then=20 one.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 hawknest4@juno.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, = 2002 11:10=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Demmick=20 info

 
 
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:53:58 -0500 "WindWalker" <windwalker@fastmail.fm>=20 writes:
Does anyone have source on internet = for=20 pictures
of Demmick Rifles?
Im having little luck finding via = web search=20 engines.
Thanks
Sam
 
SAM
don steith makes dimick rifles copied from his original ---can = link you=20 up with him if that is what you want---they are very similar to a = hawken=20 except for the trigger guard and the keys  a outstanding offhand = gun=20 usually of smaller caliber than a hawken---most dimicks also have = brass=20 hardware but some were made in steel--BTW they were also a st louis = gun---they=20 were located at 38 north main in st louis in 1859-60---there is a nice = picture=20 on page 35 of hansons book " the plains rifle"
 
suggest you look up H.E. Dimick and co which was located in st = louis mo=20 in the 1800's---they are on the tax rolls and there is some = documentation=20 there also---a copy of the dimick barrel stamp is on page 56 of = hansons book=20 also---

"HAWK"
Michael Pierce   "Home of the "Old = Grizz =20 (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield = Dr
Palm=20 Harbor,   Florida   =20 = 34684           &n= bsp;=20 Phone: 1-727-771-1815
e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com   web=20 = site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C1B481.61518D80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:45:27 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C1B473.2B06F700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As are yours. Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C1B473.2B06F700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
<Your thoughts so = noted.>
 
As are yours.
 
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C1B473.2B06F700-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:46:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0095_01C1B484.21B6DEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable nuff said ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rtlahti=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 12:45 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic As are yours. Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_0095_01C1B484.21B6DEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
nuff said
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 rtlahti =
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, = 2002 12:45=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off = topic

 
<Your thoughts so = noted.>
 
As are yours.
 
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0095_01C1B484.21B6DEC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 12:49:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C1B48C.F15E6140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Then we see posts on Remington 700,s?" Sam, That was on a Rem 700 INLINE..... Modern, but still a ML... D ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C1B48C.F15E6140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Then we see posts on Remington=20 700,s?"
 
Sam,
 That was on a Rem 700 INLINE..... = Modern, but=20 still a ML...
D
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C1B48C.F15E6140-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MLML Date: 13 Feb 2002 12:54:47 -0500 > He has put Ad Miller on warning, and he is one of the moderators. Kicked > "Hawk" off and who knows how many others. > > GENE Yep.... he sure did. Said I had too many "one liners", and I took offense to a remark he made which I took as personal, and PRIVATELY told him so. Well, it went to the moderators and I thought it went to TOF. It sorta went down hill from there. Still not real sure why Hawk was booted, but probably because he disagreed with TOF. Hey... TOF owns the list, and if want to be there, we gotta swallow alot and go along with him. I did because I have learned alot, and gotten alot of laughs from some of the ideas that come across there. Obduration (sp), ballistics, loads, etc... some of them are pretty funny. The point is, he lets his "Buds" make one liners all day, and if you are not with the "in" group, you get chastised for it. At least that is how I see it. Regards, Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:56:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C1B485.88103C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry Never seen one...must be something new over the years ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Double Edge Forge=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic "Then we see posts on Remington 700,s?" Sam, That was on a Rem 700 INLINE..... Modern, but still a ML... D ------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C1B485.88103C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry
Never seen one...must be something new = over the=20 years
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Double Edge=20 Forge
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, = 2002 12:49=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off = topic

"Then we see posts on Remington=20 700,s?"
 
Sam,
 That was on a Rem 700 = INLINE..... Modern,=20 but still a ML...
D
------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C1B485.88103C60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:06:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C1B48F.47D2B9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No apology needed.... Pretty new on the market, don't like 'em, think = states shouldn't allow them in the same catagory with bp guns, but they = are here to stay, I fear.. D ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WindWalker=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 11:56 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Sorry Never seen one...must be something new over the years ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Double Edge Forge=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic "Then we see posts on Remington 700,s?" Sam, That was on a Rem 700 INLINE..... Modern, but still a ML... D ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C1B48F.47D2B9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No apology needed.... Pretty new on the = market,=20 don't like 'em, think states shouldn't allow them in the same catagory = with bp=20 guns, but they are here to stay, I fear..
D
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WindWalker
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, = 2002 11:56=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off = topic

Sorry
Never seen one...must be something = new over the=20 years
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Double Edge=20 Forge
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, = 2002=20 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off=20 topic

"Then we see posts on Remington=20 700,s?"
 
Sam,
 That was on a Rem 700 = INLINE..... Modern,=20 but still a ML...
D
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C1B48F.47D2B9C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Still somewhat off topic Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:14:28 -0500 >A tiny tidbit of history that was once common but is largely forgotten now >and will never be mentioned in the history books. I would like to respond to Lanney's comment that has a LOT of sage wisdom in it. It seems that what truly tells us about a culture or historical period is the minutia of daily living. The commmon things and items. That is the marrow of the society. Ever see anyone go nuts of an "original" Bess or other firelock? The Smithsonian employs persons whose entire livelihood is to collect and catalogue bits of American 'daily life'. They even have Silly Putty and kids' lunchboxes catalogued and tucked away. So those of you who think it silly of impractical to keep a record if not the actual items....maybe we need to rethink that. Would it not be nice is someone for a few generations in the family had kept Uncle so'n'so's traps oiled as well as the trade gun he got while "out west" trapping for some company? If it is good enough for the Smithsonian.... -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Heritage, blame and the nature of a freetrapper Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:37:03 -0500 "WindWalker" wrote: >Was turned down right off to join the list because of my name..really think was turned down due to my heritage..< Hate to chime in (nah, not really) but I think that comment is not grounded in truth. Many folks have "handles" that are "native-sounding" whether they actually are or not. And many people on the list have a WIDE variety of cultural, regional and racial backgrounds and operate just fine on the list. I have made reference to my cherokee background and carried on a dialogue related to that and ML arms used by cherokee in 1700's. Did not get moderated. I think you will find plenty of folks who will express an interest in another's heritage and will surely find some ML info related to that historical background. >Seems to me to be more of a control factor, thus having power in hands to run off members and delete posts at will, thus giving a contol one apparently has no where else.<< True enuf, it appears that way at times but it does tend to get tedious and monotonous if those rules do not get enforced. Just like in a group of people you are sitting around a fire with...you cannot just up and say what you want when you want (at least without a consequence of some sort). >One cant bring much if anything to the table if the majority of posts are rejected can one?<< I had a lot rejected at one time. But to me, I was able to take my personality out of the way to learn a little and it was worth it. >Naw.. but maybe thats just why in olden days. there were "company" trappers... and then again there were "Freetrappers" Good thing about this country. You don't like something...you are free to pull up stakes and move on if that is how your stick floats. By the by, you MAY see some flareup about blaming stuff on heritage. We each must step outside ourselves to look within ourselves for the source of a problem before we can overcome it. We can only change ourselves anyway. Blaming one's problem - big or small - on others' attitudes or actions is only enslaving yourselves to them. Avoiding that is liberating yourself!!! THAT IS THE NATURE OF A FREETRAPPER!!! That is why they were able to work independently TOGETHER!!!! Just how my stick floats. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:09:38 -0800



>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES

>
>

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:09:51 -0800





>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES

>
>

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:09:55 -0800







>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES

>
>

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:10:13 -0800

>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com

>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES

>
>

Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:10:36 -0800



>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com

>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES

>
>

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:10:39 -0800





>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com

>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES

>
>

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 14:14:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1B498.BEDF04C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES" >>From your reaction, Madame(?), with good reason, I would think.. But I = have a less charitable term in mind, which I will not use.. D ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1B498.BEDF04C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES"
 
>>From your reaction, Madame(?), = with good=20 reason, I would think.. But I have a less charitable term in mind, which = I will=20 not use..
D
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1B498.BEDF04C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: NO IT WAS NOT YOU. Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:27:15 -0800

DO YOU THINK I WOULD BE BASE ENOUGH TO SAY WHO IT WAS WRITING ME THOSE LETTERS.  AND NO IT WASN'T YOU.

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM, J.W.?


MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:33:24 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_45a5_6451_1eec Content-Type: text/html

>


Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.
------=_NextPart_000_45a5_6451_1eec Content-Type: message/rfc822 From owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:15:40 -0800 Received: from [198.60.22.7] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBE34061D00934004321CC63C1607CFB70; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:14:53 -0800 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16b4n2-0006tT-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:10:00 -0700 Received: from [216.33.149.75] (helo=hotmail.com) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16b4mz-0006t4-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:09:57 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:09:55 -0800 Received: from 134.197.62.3 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:09:55 GMT X-Originating-IP: [134.197.62.3] Bcc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Feb 2002 19:09:55.0619 (UTC) FILETIME=[05BFB730:01C1B4C2] Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com







>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES

>
>

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_45a5_6451_1eec-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:33:27 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_439b_645b_38e8 Content-Type: text/html



>


Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.
------=_NextPart_000_439b_645b_38e8 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ------=_NextPart_000_439b_645b_38e8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:33:30 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_4190_6465_41df Content-Type: text/html





>


Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.
------=_NextPart_000_4190_6465_41df Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ------=_NextPart_000_4190_6465_41df-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:33:34 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_6981_6472_7e51 Content-Type: text/html







>


Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here
------=_NextPart_000_6981_6472_7e51 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ------=_NextPart_000_6981_6472_7e51-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: who is your real troll? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:38:29 -0800



>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES


MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:37:24 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1B493.91ECEC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mercy on the soul who opens an attachment from this person. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SUE RAVEN=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:33 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? >=20 ----- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. ----- ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1B493.91ECEC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mercy on the soul who opens an attachment = from this=20 person.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SUE RAVEN
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, = 2002 1:33=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is = the=20 TROLL?





>


Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.

------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1B493.91ECEC20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 14:46:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C1B49D.2F24F1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seems to be a wee tad obsessive/compulsive... Missed the morning lithium = handout, I would guess.... D ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul Jones=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 2:37 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Mercy on the soul who opens an attachment from this person. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SUE RAVEN=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:33 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? >=20 --- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. --- ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C1B49D.2F24F1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Seems to be a wee tad = obsessive/compulsive...=20 Missed the morning lithium handout, I would guess....
D
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul Jones=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, = 2002 2:37=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is = the=20 TROLL?

Mercy on the soul who opens an attachment = from this=20 person.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SUE RAVEN
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, = 2002 1:33=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who = is the=20 TROLL?





>


Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.

------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C1B49D.2F24F1A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:51:30 -0800



>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com

>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES


MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:51:27 -0800

>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com

>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES


Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:51:33 -0800





>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com

>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES


MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:51:36 -0800







>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com

>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES


MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:51:51 -0800

>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com

>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED. 

YOU MEN TALK AND CLAIM OF THE INJUSTICE OF THE OTHER SITE, THEN YOU TURN THIS ONE INTO SOMETHING LESS THAN DISCUSSION. 

I FOR ONE DO NOT KNOW THIS GARRET CHARACTER.  MAYBE HE IS OR WAS AN AMM OFFICER WHO FELL FROM GRACE WITH YOU.  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE HE WAS THE ONE IN ARIZONA WHO STOLED FROM HIS PARTNER, TONY SOMETHING THAT DAD TOLD ME OF.  HIS PATNER BEING IN A DRAWING IN THE MUZZLELOADER SERIES(INSIDE COVER).  I DO NOT CARE.  MAYBE THE MAJORITY HERE HAVE SUCH A FRUSTRATED TIME WITH THEIR WIFE AND CAREER THAT THEY BREAK OUT IN THESE TANGENTS.  WHO CARES.  WHAT EVER THE EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS YOU HAVE AND HAVE TO STIR UP TROBLE RATHER THAN DISCUSS ANYTHING I DON'T CARE.  AND FOR THOSE WHOM ARE JUST FREAK PARASITES WHOM TRIVE ON THIS MAYHEM, I HOPE YOU ENJOY THE SITE YOU ARE CREATING.

SUE RAVEN,

NOT GARRET'S GHOST. 

THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE ACTING I WOULD SAY THAT WHATEVER THE PROBLEM WAS.  YOU REATIONS SAY THAT YOU MAY BE REALLY MAD BECAUSE GARRET WOULDN'T BOW OR ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR SUPPOSED DEITY AND AUTHORITY. 

AND THEY CALL MY GENDER BITCHES


MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who is the TROLL? Date: 13 Feb 2002 11:51:57 -0800



>From: LivingInThePast@aol.com

>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BoB Trapping' Article
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:03:33 EST
>
>blond40DD... wrote: <<"But I have been getting some ardent off-list e-mails
>from a few on the list. I really do not want anyone lingering around or
>knocking at my door, or whatever.">>
>
>Folks, once again I refer you to the following website to learn what you may
>be dealing with here. The above statement was thrown into a thread on
>'trapping'. How ironic.
>
>Internet Trolls
>
>Please take the time to read about PLAYTIME and TACTICAL TROLLS, and I think
>you'll come to understand how they are capable of wasting your (and a list's)
>time and energy...
>
>Also, keep in mind that 'Sue Raven' appeared about the time 'Clint Garrett'
>disappeared; has created plenty of controversy since that time, and slammed
>virtually all of us in post(s).
>
>Like the website says... if you think you're dealing with a Troll, it's best

>to ignore rather than encourage them. Barney

IT SEEMS THAT ONCE A GOOD DISCUSSION GETS UNDER WAY, SOMEONE COMES OUT OF THE WOODS AND CREATES A RIOT.  i MEAN WE HAD A TRULLY GREAT BEAVER TRAPPING DEBATE.  UNTIL SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME UNGLUED.