From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. Date: 01 Mar 1998 00:44:45 -0600 At 02:25 AM 2/28/98 , David Tippets wrote: >Don, > >I've heard that it was a baked on finish. Baking isn't a problem, once >you've found some asphaltum varnish. Somebody is making those jappaned pots >for Fort Union -- got any clues where the asphaltum varnish is coming from? > Most of the early recipes I've seen only call for applying the asphaltum varnish with a brush. Baked finishes are more common post-industrial revolution, not entirely unknown well before, in particular regarding fired enameling. Sun baking was common. Baking speeds curing of the finish, less time for dust to spoil, tempers the finish. Temperatures should not generally exceed 250 to 350 degrees f., for most applications. Some things work best in the 100+ range. A very few to 500 and more. All kinds of nasty things happen when something gets a little too hot -- or not hot enough. Another receipt... "Brunswick Black Varnish Melt 4 lbs of common asphalt, and add 2 pts. of boiled linseed-oil, and 1 gall. of oil of turpentine." Has anybody called up the local asphalt plant to see if you can get any pure product? In small batches. Commercial boiled linseed oil should probably work well enough in this application and turpentine is still available. It might be that you can go get a 5 gallon bucket of paving asphalt melt it down to remove impurities, and end up with usable stuff. 5 gallons may be so insignificant they won't even charge for it. Make tiny quantities and test before making a big batch. I find an old ladle over a Bunsen burner handy for batch testing. Work outdoors unless you have high volume air exchange and tolerant companions. Warning: ask a lot of the right questions. I am aware there is a petroleum derivative also called asphalt and that may be all that is commonly available. The first few dozen people you ask probably won't have a clue what you are talking about. Persist. With most old ways, original materials make a huge difference in finished results. Usually for the better. Not having the real lead (litharge) in the linseed may be enough of a handicap. The real thing is available somewhere. Sometimes it's right under our nose. I'm not familiar with the melting point of asphalt, it may be higher than is possible with a double boiler. If so it will require a heavy wall pot. Ideally a double wall copper boiler. I'd really hate to see fine old iron pots fouled with burnt in asphalt and think this is one area where ecological practice should perhaps take precedent. Recycle old heavy aluminum cookware, since it is now suspect re: Alzheimer's, it seems a good way to extend the utility of manufactured goods before being sent to the smelter. This is going to stink a lot. Experimentation to get everything just right might take a little while. Are we sure the finish applied on the Fort Union pots is asphalt based? Or a convenient modern substitute? I haven't been able to find any in a real long time; but then, I haven't been looking real hard. Maybe I'll do a little more checking around. Remember varnish factories burned down with great regularity for a very good reason. As much as is possible I like seeing us shy away from modern expedients and products of petroleum technology, like paraffin. We learn more. If somebody went to the trouble I'd want to trade for some. One or two others might. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Katona" Subject: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Kit Carson Date: 01 Mar 1998 07:50:04 +0000 ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- I have a question about Kit Carson. Where can I purchase a copy of the Kit Carson genealogy, the Carson-Bent-Boggs book? I recieved your address from the MtMan homepage. Rick Carson >>Can anyone help this fellow? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 01 Mar 1998 15:47:47 -0600 At 12:06 AM 3/1/98 , David Tippets wrote: >John, > >As per yer closing comment -- where do you find horses wearing mocassins and >why shouldn't said horses be kicked in the ass? I never met a horse, or a >person, that didn't occasionally need to be kicked in the ass. Quote must >have come from lover of Indian ponies -- maybe predessors to the PETA >people. > >Dave > > Never claimed to be Strunk or White. He deserved a ball in the brain and a session on a jerky rack. Would have made a dandy vest. Finally convinced him who was boss & eventually turned out to be a pretty good horse. Now you be careful, I am a totally in favor of PETA, People for the Eating of Tasty Animals. A fine upstanding organization with noble goals and aspirations; if there ever was one. John... "Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980 john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 01 Mar 1998 13:49:25 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4518.D8ABA0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GOOD idea you can get it from Jas. Townsend and son. Jon T ---------- : From: TetonTod : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) : Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 6:47 PM : : Tim, : : I lined mine with pine pitch a friend gathered from some ponderosa pines. You : also might try Bewers pitch. : : Todd Glover ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4518.D8ABA0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

GOOD idea you can get it from Jas. = Townsend and son.  Jon T

----------
: From: TetonTod = <TetonTod@aol.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd = Canteens)
: Date: Friday, February 27, 1998 6:47 PM
:
: Tim, =
:
: I lined mine with pine pitch a friend gathered from some = ponderosa pines. You
: also might try Bewers pitch.
:
: Todd = Glover

------=_NextPart_000_01BD4518.D8ABA0A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 01 Mar 1998 16:57:18 PST Don't knock us members of PETA----you know, People who Eat Tasty Animals. Been one for decades. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net ---------- > > John, > > As per yer closing comment -- where do you find horses wearing mocassins and > why shouldn't said horses be kicked in the ass? I never met a horse, or a > person, that didn't occasionally need to be kicked in the ass. Quote must > have come from lover of Indian ponies -- maybe predessors to the PETA > people. > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Kramer > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel > > > >There is no question one horse travel teaches you to trim down your gear. > >An essential lesson of survival. Wandering on foot teaches much the same. > > > >To fully understand the compleat experience Two Squaws is right, you need > >to do a few hundred carefree miles with a couple of pack animals. > > > >It will be surprising what you learn. I invented a couple of dozen new > >swear words over a 13 hand appaloosa aptly named Lil' Devil. He inspired > >the sig file at the bottom. > > > >Both ways teach, the long trail with a pack string will certainly teach the > >most. A spare animal is handy on the long trail. > > > >Part of the time I was out I rode with Pawnee and The Walrus, between us we > >had 9 animals. Cuts a pretty wide swath in the modern world, sometimes > >poor bull for the stock. Duties were interchangeable among the animals but > >we each basically had a rider, a packer and a spare on the string. > > > >Fewer animals can easier find sufficient graze on an extended basis. > >Doesn't leave such a broad and easy trail for hostiles to track. > > > >John... > > > >"Never kick a horse in the ass with mocassins on." copyright 1980 > > > >john > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 01 Mar 1998 17:47:33 EST In a message dated 98-02-27 00:24:57 EST, you write: << does anyone know anything about the a new keelboat being build in st. charles after the other one was burnedup in a fire last year. five of us took a ride up the missouri river last year. >> They have finished one of the Pirogues and are working currently on the second. The whole thing is sorta turniong out to be a big Clusterf___. The city of St. Charles is in on the rebuild and looking into how to make as much money off the deal as possible. I'm hearing that the Illinois Territorial Rangewrs are in on it and now they figure everyone who is involved should be a Ranger, and when it sails again it should only be Rangewrs that go. I hear a lot but cannot substanciate most. A couple of my friends went up the river on the last one as well, do you know Mike Perry or mike Chambers from the trip? Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: MtMan-List: Tent wanted Date: 01 Mar 1998 11:35:30 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4506.2360AAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for a wall tent to buy. I also have a bell backed wedge tent in excellent condition Made of marine canvas no mildew, In a bag, no grommets has loops and ties. I have guns and stuff for trade or money what ever anyone want to do. Later Jon Towns Amm944@bigfoot.com or 360-876-1319 after 5 PM week days PST anytime weekend. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4506.2360AAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am looking for a wall tent to buy. =  I also have a bell backed wedge tent in excellent condition Made = of marine canvas no mildew,  In a bag, no grommets has loops and = ties.  I have guns and stuff for trade or money what ever anyone = want to do.  Later Jon Towns
Amm944@bigfoot.com or 360-876-1319 = after 5 PM week days PST anytime weekend.    

------=_NextPart_000_01BD4506.2360AAE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart Subject: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 02 Mar 1998 16:17:23 -0800 Hello the camp, I've read all the archive on "capotes" and "blankets" and am unable to find the definitive answer to what the period correct colors are for a capote or blanket. One problem is of course, what's available! I'm finding predominantly, scarlet, emerald, royal blue and white multi-stripe. I know the multi-stripe is out. As always, your help is appreciated! MB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jerry's message on one horse travel Date: 01 Mar 1998 23:24:38 EST reminds me of the time one reeeeeal windy while riding my horse we were heading into to the wind for quite awhile when we turned around my horse lifted its tail the wind bluew the bit right out of my horses mouth it was abig reck from there to camp. no searesly i new of amule my [favorite] that could kick your foot could get it back downto stand on. iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Philip Huvler Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sawing off a CVA barrel Date: 02 Mar 1998 13:18:45 -0500 (EST) At 08:41 PM 2/26/98 -0600, you wrote: >Hello gunmakers everywhere, > > A friend of mine has a CVA Kentucky rifle he built from a kit. The >caliber is .45 and the barrel length is 32". He wants to convert it to >.32 caliber by replacing the barrel. The problem is most barrels are to >long. What is the proper technique---saw off the muzzle end or the >breech end? How much can be safely sawn off before accuracy is >sacrificed? > Next question. I have a CVA Mountain rifle. It is percussion and I >want to convert to flintlock. Do I simply remove the drum and replace it >with a touch-hole liner and add a flintlock or is it more complicated >than that? > Would someone please help us flatlanders with these questions. > >Thanks a lot folks, >Monty Bradley > >hi did a CVA Kentucky conversion I sawed off the drum drilled and tapped it for a liner. also I peened the remaining part of drum into the barrel for added safety. the flintlock for the style gun fit perfect > good luck Philip Huvler ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning.. Date: 01 Mar 1998 20:22:00 +0000 Nope. But, I'm wondering...they still use stuff like that with horses so I'm wondering if a vet or horse product supply house might have something? David Tippets wrote: >Don, > >I've heard that it was a baked on finish. Baking isn't a problem, once >you've found some asphaltum varnish. Somebody is making those jappaned pots >for Fort Union -- got any clues where the asphaltum varnish is coming from? > >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: Phyllis and Don Keas >To: hist_text >Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 10:40 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. > > >>Japaning wasn't just painting. They put on the asphalt/varnish and then >>baked it on at 350 degrees. Don Keas >> >> >>David Tippets wrote: >>> >>> >>>Thanks for the insight on Jappaning -- how's about some more? >>> >>>A couple of years ago I discovered that the Fort Union Interpretive >>>Association has documented and is now offering for sale a small >>>personal-size cooking pot that is Jappaned tin. More recently, I 've >>>discovered documentation of Jappaned tin eyeglass cases. >>> >>>The Fort Union reproduction pot was priced at $80.00, last that I >>checked. >>> >>>According to your understanding of Jappaning: >>> >>> Could anyone today buy the appropriate shellac and paint it on tin to >>>achieve results equal to the Jappaned tin containers? >>> >>>Is protecting from rust the mail reason people used to Jappan tin? >>> >>>Is the Jappaned tin food safe if Jappaned on the inside of the >>container? >>> >>>Thanks for any additional information you have about Jappaning! >>> >>>Dave >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: John Kramer >>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 11:41 PM >>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Canoe >>> >>> >>> >>>>. . . Japaning, in this country, was most commonly done >>>>with asphaltum varnish. >>>> >>>>Tole work on tin was sometimes done with milk paint, more often with >>>>enamel, and some call this japaning. What was called japaning in the >>>>1200's referenced work done in Japan. A lacquering technique never >>widely >>>>used in this country. Black pigmented true lacquer from the rhus >>>>venicifera; was the first japaning. >>>> >>>>Terminology has been loosely applied in this country and old names >>>>appropriated for "new and improved" materials. During the early >>nineteenth >>>>century the terms shellac, lacquer, varnish, were interchangeable and >>could >>>>refer to any of several classes of materials. It depended on what was >>the >>>>local usage. Lacquer is now a modified nitro-cellulose based product, >>>>rapidly being replaced with new wonder water formulae; all called >>lacquer. >>>> >>>>Japaning can be generally thought of as a blackening of the surface. >>Some >>>>techniques of woodwork may call ebonizing - japaning. If painted with >>any >>>>black surface material it could be called japaning. >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>RFC822 header >>>----------------------------------- >>> >>>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >>> (SMTPD32-4.03) id A6582CE0276; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:25:12 MST >>>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) >>> id 0y7M7X-0002Pp-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:11 -0700 >>>Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) >>> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >>> id 0y7M7U-0002Ov-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:08 -0700 >>>Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) >>id >>>IAA17547 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:18:05 >>-0700 (MST) >>>Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR01 [207.68.143.137] >>> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >>> id 0y7Jdw-0002JL-00; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:39:28 -0700 >>>Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.225 by email.msn.com with Microsoft >> >>>SMTPSVC; >>> Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:38:22 -0800 >>>From: "David Tippets" >>>To: >>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning >>>Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:36:41 -0700 >>>X-Priority: 3 >>>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >>>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >>>Message-ID: <0fe8a2238121828UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> >>>Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>Precedence: bulk >>>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>X-UIDL: 881270251 >>>Status: U >>> >> >> > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id ABF919F022A; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:13:13 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y8uPN-0002dZ-00; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:07:01 -0700 >Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y8uPL-0002d4-00; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:06:59 -0700 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id >PAA28247 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:06:57 -0700 (MST) >Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 [207.68.143.160] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) > id 0y8hiG-0000My-00; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:33:40 -0700 >Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.134 by email.msn.com with Microsoft >SMTPSVC; > Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:32:28 -0800 >From: "David Tippets" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. >Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:25:18 -0700 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >Message-ID: <09ec72832081c28UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 881270341 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Local, State cooperation and Reenactments Date: 02 Mar 1998 18:52:32 -0800 (PST) On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, LODGEPOLE wrote: The whole thing is sorta turniong out to be a big Clusterf___. The > city of St. Charles is in on the rebuild and looking into how to make as much > money off the deal as possible. I'm curious, are there any postive results when a political entity and a BP club get together to do something? One of the clubs I belong to is looking hard at doing something very similiar in relations to the Lewis and Clark expedition through Idaho, and, quite frankly, I'm hoping to hear some positive comments. Any clubs ever get financially shipwrecked because of one of these partnerships? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jappaning. Date: 01 Mar 1998 12:31:35 -0700 John, Thanks -- as far as I'm concerned, the bottom has just fallen out of the market for Fort Union's little Jappaned cooking pot. Where'd you lean all this stuff? Dave -----Original Message----- >At 02:25 AM 2/28/98 , David Tippets wrote: >>Don, >> >>I've heard that it was a baked on finish. Baking isn't a problem, once >>you've found some asphaltum varnish. Somebody is making those jappaned pots >>for Fort Union -- got any clues where the asphaltum varnish is coming from? >> > >Most of the early recipes I've seen only call for applying the asphaltum >varnish with a brush. Baked finishes are more common post-industrial >revolution, not entirely unknown well before, in particular regarding fired >enameling. Sun baking was common. Baking speeds curing of the finish, >less time for dust to spoil, tempers the finish. Temperatures should not >generally exceed 250 to 350 degrees f., for most applications. Some things >work best in the 100+ range. A very few to 500 and more. All kinds of >nasty things happen when something gets a little too hot -- or not hot enough. > >Another receipt... >"Brunswick Black Varnish >Melt 4 lbs of common asphalt, and add 2 pts. of boiled linseed-oil, and 1 >gall. of oil of turpentine." > >Has anybody called up the local asphalt plant to see if you can get any >pure product? In small batches. Commercial boiled linseed oil should >probably work well enough in this application and turpentine is still >available. > >It might be that you can go get a 5 gallon bucket of paving asphalt melt it >down to remove impurities, and end up with usable stuff. 5 gallons may be >so insignificant they won't even charge for it. > >Make tiny quantities and test before making a big batch. I find an old >ladle over a Bunsen burner handy for batch testing. Work outdoors unless >you have high volume air exchange and tolerant companions. > >Warning: ask a lot of the right questions. I am aware there is a petroleum >derivative also called asphalt and that may be all that is commonly >available. The first few dozen people you ask probably won't have a clue >what you are talking about. Persist. With most old ways, original >materials make a huge difference in finished results. Usually for the >better. Not having the real lead (litharge) in the linseed may be enough >of a handicap. The real thing is available somewhere. Sometimes it's >right under our nose. > >I'm not familiar with the melting point of asphalt, it may be higher than >is possible with a double boiler. If so it will require a heavy wall pot. >Ideally a double wall copper boiler. I'd really hate to see fine old iron >pots fouled with burnt in asphalt and think this is one area where >ecological practice should perhaps take precedent. Recycle old heavy >aluminum cookware, since it is now suspect re: Alzheimer's, it seems a good >way to extend the utility of manufactured goods before being sent to the >smelter. This is going to stink a lot. > >Experimentation to get everything just right might take a little while. > >Are we sure the finish applied on the Fort Union pots is asphalt based? Or >a convenient modern substitute? I haven't been able to find any in a real >long time; but then, I haven't been looking real hard. Maybe I'll do a >little more checking around. > >Remember varnish factories burned down with great regularity for a very >good reason. > >As much as is possible I like seeing us shy away from modern expedients and >products of petroleum technology, like paraffin. We learn more. > >If somebody went to the trouble I'd want to trade for some. One or two >others might. > >John... > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer >kramer@kramerize.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Fwd) Kit Carson Date: 02 Mar 1998 08:40:40 EST I would place a phone call directly to Skip Miller, director of theKit Carson Museum in Taos, NM. If anyone knows about Kit, it's Skip Miller. the number is 505-758-0505. He'll big a big help to you. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 02 Mar 1998 07:49:58 EST I have an article I pulled off the net on making a gourd canteen. (I just noticed that it has "J2HEARTS" name on it!) It is a well done article, but I havn't seen any gourds I liked enough to try it yet. He reccommends using bees wax and parafin melted together with several coats applied. It may be worth trying. Also, How well have you cleaned the interior? Could you be getting some floatsom in your drink? Let me know if you want, and I'll try to get the web site for this article again. John Fleming. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latex Paints (Gourd Canteens) Date: 03 Mar 1998 10:18:36 -0600 JFLEMYTH wrote: > > I have an article I pulled off the net on making a gourd canteen. > > Also, How well have you cleaned the interior? Could you be getting some > floatsom in your drink? >From personal experience, the problem with uncoated gourd canteens is much more than flotsam. In the one I made, after extensive scraping, I filled it with water overnight. The next morning the water was undrinkable. I think it must be the tannin, which produced a pucker that made it hard to even spit out the water! I have read a first hand period account (Noah Smithwick in early Texas) about gourd canteens, but he didn't say anything about coating them. By the way, his book "Early Times in Texas" is available for downloading on-line. It is a good, sometimes humerous read. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: MtMan-List: Subject lines Date: 03 Mar 1998 09:15:23 -0800 Howdy, Please take the time to put a subject line on your message that reflects the topic of discussion. We are still discussing gourd canteens under the Latex Paint title. All of these messages are archieved by subject and anyone searching for info on gourd canteens would never think to look under latex paint. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List:(Gourd Canteens) Date: 03 Mar 1998 09:47:48 -0600 (CST) >I have an article I pulled off the net on making a gourd canteen. (I just >noticed that it has "J2HEARTS" name on it!) It is a well done article, but I >havn't seen any gourds I liked enough to try it yet. He reccommends using >bees wax and parafin melted together with several coats applied. It may be >worth trying. > >Also, How well have you cleaned the interior? Could you be getting some >floatsom in your drink? > The waxing accomplishes this. As long as I'm in a writing mood, I thought I'd tell you how I clean my gourds. I start with a ramrod and clean as much loose stuff and seeds as possible (save those seeds to replant next year.) Then I pour in several quarter (25 cent) size rocks and swish them around knocking more membrane material loose, and pour it out. Do this 3-4 times. Then go with a smaller rock size (maybe half) and repeat the procedure, 3-4 times. Then go with an even smaller siuze, maybe pea gravel (aquarium size) size and repeat the same 3-4 times. The succession of rocks does a great job in cleaning out the gourd. Sometimes you can reach a finger into the hole and rub away the loose stuff just under the lip. I usually let the rocks do that, though. After the rock bit, rinse the inside of the gourd of whatever loose membrane and rock dust there happens to be. Let the gourd dry completely before waxing (24 hrs at least) A few minutes in the oven could do this, but it might dry too fast and crack. It's best to let it dry slowly over time. Waxing accomplishes three objectives. 1. it coats the inside and forms a barrier against the foul-tasting inside wall, and 2. it covers whatever membrane may be left inside and keeps it from coming loose tainting the water, and 3. it strengthens the gourd wall. Three coats minimum will accomplish waxing easily. You don't have to heat the gourd before pouring the wax. The hot wax itself will provide sufficient heat to cause an even flow of wax. As it's poured out, rotate the gourd to insure an even coating on the inside. Don't forget the mouth of the gourd needs to be coated, too. Rotating the gourd as it's poured out accomplishes this. Allow the wax to cool a bit between each pouring. It takes a few times to develop a technique of your own, but it's easier than you might think at first. Use corks as stoppers. I find wine bottle corks work well for openings of that size. My favorite Southwest drinking gourd is corked with a Spanish wine cork, complete with Spanish writing stamped on it. I finish mine off with rawhide or leather slings, wrapped around the neck and secured by stitching with sinew. That's how I do it. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 17:44:52 EST Hey Medicine Bear I know that Rogers Rangers had white blankets with black or indigo stripes (at least that's what the article in Muzzleloader says), whitney makes a copy. It's a very nice blanket. That is about 90 years early I know , but it probably was available Hope that helps JS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 17:50:23 EST are you going to go hunting use it, if so go with earthtones,also take a look at all the type that were used.do your homework before you buy.it will save you money at the end. traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paul mueller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 10:40:00 -0500 Frank Stewart wrote: > > Hello the camp, > > I've read all the archive on "capotes" and "blankets" and am unable to > find the definitive answer to what the period correct colors are for a > capote or blanket. > One problem is of course, what's available! > I'm finding predominantly, scarlet, emerald, royal blue and white > multi-stripe. I know the multi-stripe is out. > As always, your help is appreciated! > > MB what time frame are you looking for pre 1840 pre 1790 as for the multi stripe look around 1820 . the multi strip blanket is in fact a type of chiefs phase blankets.rember you need your three primary colors to make the rest of them. red, blue and yellow. alot of people talk what color is right. most blankets were made in pairs and then split dye lots were not always even. in a 1677 letter to witney mills, the purchasers indicated that they wanted the blankets dyed red and blue,as these were the colors that best pleased the indians of virginia.the white blanket with a black, blue,or red strip would be very good also. a good book to get and read would be the lan language of the robe. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Local, State cooperation and Reenactments Date: 03 Mar 1998 18:01:47 EST Ho the list First find WARREN STEVENS of Connecticutt. He recreated the rogers rangers march to St Francis, talk about coordinating. He can give you a lot of advice. I am proud to say that for over ten years I was part of the only official New York City, yes laddies, New York City, Historic re-eanactment. The Remsen Day Re-enactment went on for about thirteen years. The City, especially the Parks Deaprtment Commissioners, the State representatives and PRIVATE CORPORATIONS, including our utility companies were all very helpful and considerate. True we were not allowed to target shoot, but we did have tomahawk throws and games for the participants' and the publics kids. It slowly started to go downhill as corporate donations began to dry up. It hard to argue that you should still get your donation of $500 when most of that money is now going to a shelter for battered women and their children. You see being in the city (not really we, are in a very nice almost suburban community in Queens) we had to bride people to come. At one point it was a catered event, yes catered, with the local red cross doing coffee and donuts in the morning, six foot heroes for lunch, and the local Roy Rogers giving us a BIG break on huge boxes of fried chicken. Times change and it was fun. If you have the opportunity to do a great thing for your community just by putting up with a little bullsh*t , then you know that you should do the right thing. Who is going to show kids that this culture, our SHARED culture (all races, genders and creeds benefitted from it) was brought about by individuals. That is such an inportant idea that is being lost today. DO IT !!! P.S. - Don't be afraid to ask for what you want and need, if the sponsor(s) is interested they will pay for it. Hope that helped Watch your topknot JS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 22:14:31 EST Check the inventories from the Rondy's for the years you are interested. See what the predominant colors are. Most of those colors are still quite available. When in doubt, go with white with black stripe--always correct. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 04 Mar 1998 00:01:54 -0600 Howdy, If you are going to hunt back East I would use red. The deer don't care and earth tones will probably get you a ball in the butt! I wore a red w/black stripe capote for years and no one ever said diddle about it. I saw a picture done by Russel or one of those "old" artists and figured it could not be to far off the mark. If you are just doin it to be proper go ahead and burn up the brain cells, but I would look at some of the old paintings and go with that. When you are freezeing your cahones off waitin for a deer in one of those thin pretty ones it won't make help a bit that it is egzakly purfec! On page 140 in People of the First Man (watercolours by Bodmer) done at Ft.McKenzie, fall of 1833 there is a picture of a Piegan posed with feather and trade blanket. It is red w/ black stripes. Hope this helps. Your Obt. Servant K. McWilliams was Ken YellowFeather AMM 251 ---------- > From: Traphand > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. > Date: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 4:50 PM > > are you going to go hunting use it, if so go with earthtones,also take a look > at all the type that were used.do your homework before you buy.it will save > you money at the end. traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" Subject: MtMan-List: Capotes Date: 04 Mar 1998 00:30:04 -0600 Howdy all, Since I am re-joining AMM I need to replace some gear that wore out or doesn't fit anymore. I need a good source for some basic stuff, like where I can buy a Hudson Bay blanket. RED of course! Also need to buy some REAL brass tacks to use to make a new belt. Yes Lance and some of you old farts that remember me. I ain't skinny anymore! Does anyone know where I can buy some slow rust browning solution? I need to make me another pistol as well. Will need a source for a .53 cal barrel blank as well. I can make the rest. Happy to be back. Ken McWilliams was YellowFeather AMM 251 PS. I had my name changed years ago, but to stop any confusion I will be using YellowFeather from now on. I should have left it alone in the first damn place! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Stewart Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 03 Mar 1998 22:54:12 -0800 Thanks Paul for the information. paul mueller wrote: > what time frame are you looking for pre 1840 pre 1790 as for the multi > stripe look around 1820 . Sorry, should have said, 1810 - 1825. > in a 1677 letter to witney mills, the purchasers > indicated that they wanted the blankets dyed red and blue,as these were > the colors that best pleased the indians of virginia. Were these colors still being used and more importantly used by mountain men in 1825? MB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: CASCADE MT MEN MUZZELOADING ARMS & PIONEER CRAFT SHOW (fwd) Date: 04 Mar 1998 02:26:55 -0800 (PST) Just a forwarded note on a show up in Washinton. Supposed to be pretty good. I be too poor to go :( ---------- Forwarded message ---------- MARCH 7 & 8 1998, KING CO. FAIR GROUNDS ENUMCLAW WA. . GREAT SHOW & DISPLAY. 200+ DEALERS, TRADERS, SUTTLERS,KNIFE MAKERS,100'S OF GUNS, (CUSTOME & COMM.) & ALL OTHER MANNER OF WARE.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOPE TO SEE SOME OF YOU THERE. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 04 Mar 1998 08:06:05 EST Good idea about the topic lines, Dennis. I'll try to watch that too. While I am on, I am looking for a good period correct bullet mold for the late 1700's, something I can keep in my shoting bag. (I use a .490 round ball.) However, I don't have any real good sources on what the molds were like at that point. Has any body seen something they could reccomend? Thanks for any ideals. John "Sky-Pilot" Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) Subject: MtMan-List: Running Balls Date: 04 Mar 1998 09:23:07 -0600 I have two ball molds. Both are very functional and authentic. One is brass and comes from Dixie Gun Works. Just get their catalog and send the money in. They will make the size you tell them to, I think from .300 to .750. The other is Rapine. They also will make the size you tell them to, and theirs is steel. Have several of both, for the different shooting bags I have and the different guns. Both work well. Both have cutters on them, I like the Rapine one better because the handles are just a bit longer. Both work well, and both are authentic. As I recall the price, both are about the same price. Hope this helps some. Tim Austin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paul mueller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes again. Date: 04 Mar 1998 11:53:36 -0500 Frank Stewart wrote: > > Thanks Paul for the information. > > paul mueller wrote: > > > what time frame are you looking for pre 1840 pre 1790 as for the multi > > stripe look around 1820 . > > Sorry, should have said, 1810 - 1825. > > > in a 1677 letter to witney mills, the purchasers > > indicated that they wanted the blankets dyed red and blue,as these were > > the colors that best pleased the indians of virginia. > > Were these colors still being used and more importantly used by mountain men > in 1825? > > MB most blankets were a white with a color strip ie: black,blue,red most common colors of the strip. here is a part on an invoice date january 2nd 1823 hudson bay company(sic) 29 pairs 3 point yellow red green & blue stripes ....... 290 pairs 3 point blue bars ........ 10 ps 4 bar broad red striped blanketings ........ 15ps red & blue striped duffills..... an other line from ft. snelling 1822 one time i offered her a scarlet blanket for a kiss but it was no go, and off she went home. colors i have run into from 1670 to 1840s with reference to a capote. blanket, blanketing,or other wools are: green,white,indigo blue,yellow,black,red,grey,shk blue,olive,drab (yellows brown),logwood(brownish red), dark olive,scarlet,blue,brown, wine red,salisbury,rose,blue-grey,buff,orange, as you can see alot of colors were there. most of this is pre 1810. if you want to go most common go white with a black strip. as for style there are alot of differnt styles but when you get down to it only two really different stlyes one square cut one a tailor cut. the earlist i can find the square cut is in 1856. you cane look at both on my web page www.nwtrader.com. one other note most capotes did not have an attached hood most hoods were unattached and buttoned on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 04 Mar 1998 14:43:11 EST DIxie Guns Works has some nice brass molds for around $25.00. or Rapine Bullet Mold Manufacturing Co. has a nice steel one for $40.00. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:36:28 EST do not know the people you speak of. we left washington to new haven got caught in a big storm half up river.my hat is off to the man running the boat,he did a great job.i take it that you are a ill.ranger.i an a mo ranger out of fort osage along the river. i know a couple of the ill boys.we ahaving a symposium up in arrow rock mo. march 28 29it will be about fort wayne in1812,tippicanoe,osage trading house atarrow rock,round table discussion,political maniplation of the militaryin 1812,nathan boone,osage indians,amer.cavalry swords 1st infantry at lundys lane. me know and i will hook you upto my email. got to run dinner coming, traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Gardens Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:38:49 -0600 Washtahay- 'bout time to put the garden in. Am looking for seeds for bottle gourds. Have Mandan red corn seed and Indian melon seed to swap. Anyone interested? And what do you all plant? LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Re: YellowFeather Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:38:51 -0600 Washtahay- At 12:30 AM 3/4/98 -0600, you wrote: > I need to make me another pistol as well. >Will need a source for a .53 cal barrel blank as well. I can make the rest. Got a chunk of Douglas .54 out in the garage if that'll work. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 04 Mar 1998 20:57:51 EST Need some help on sources. Am doing a paper (who knows where it will end up going), the focus of which is Turley's Mill, north of Taos and the home of Taos Lightning. Exported by Turley since 1831 it found its way to many forts and rondys. Of course Turley's Mill was destroyed in 1847 during the Taos Rebellion where a number of mountain men where either murdered or otherwise involved. Have some new information about the mill and would like to place it not only in context with the Taos Rebellion but also whiskey in the fur trade. Anyone know of articles that have been done on whiskey in the fur trade and where they might be found? Anyone know of decendents of Simeon Turley and their whereabouts? Has anyone ever come across a drawing, floorplan, layout or other significant description of the physical mill and distillery? Does anyone know of 1830's vintage distillery floorplans showing a typical distillery and what activities took place in each of the rooms? Any of this info would be quite helpful. Am working on this now and trying to have it put together soon. Thanks to anyone who can contribute. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rust Brown Reciept Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:59:10 -0600 At 12:30 AM 3/4/98 , Yellowfeather, wrote: >Howdy all, > Does anyone know where I can buy >some slow rust browning solution? Most any local chemical supplier should do. 1825 Receipt... To Brown Gun Barrels. After the barrel is finished rub it over with aqua fortis, or spirit of salt, diluted with water. Then lay it by for a week, till a complete coat of oil is formed. A little oil is then to be applied, and after rubbing the surface dry, polish it with a hard brush and a little bees' wax. another from circa 1865... To Brown Iron and Steel Objects. Dissolve 2 parts of crystallized chloride of iron, 2 parts of solid chloride of antimony, and 1 part of gallic acid, in 4 or 5 parts of water. With this moisten a piece of sponge or cloth and apply to the object, a gun-barrel for instance. Let it dry in the air, and repeat the operation several times; then wash with water; dry, and rub with boiled linseed-oil. Objects browned in this way have a very agreeable dead gray appearance, and the shade deepens according to the number of times the operation is repeated. end receipts... Chemical Equivalents Aqua Fortis = Nitric Acid Spirit of Salt = Hydrochloric or Muriatic Acid Chloridizing (converting various metals into a chloride by treating with chlorine or hydrochloric acid) was developed in the late nineteenth century. Gallic or Gallotonnic Acid = Nut Gall derivative. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rust Brown Reciept Date: 05 Mar 1998 00:33:20 -0500 as usual john has good data about a slow browning solution . there is one out there on the market that is similar to the one jon is giving the recipe of it is made by Laurel Mountain forge p.o. box 224 Romeo mi 48065 I dont know the cost but it works ok. it is a slow brown solution and it also claims to be a degreaser. have used before but it has a tendency to pitt and is hard to stop rusting once it is started. the finish produced is a soft brown and not a slick brown. I think i have tried ever type of browning solution out there on the market-- a lot of the solutions use ferric cloride and that seems to grow rust brown. contact me offline and i can give you many recipies on browning solutions I always use the reference book "firearms blueing and browning by r. h. angier and get most of the recipies that i use or mix up. it is a good start for almost any mixture needed for browning or blueing. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:59:10 -0600 John Kramer writes: >At 12:30 AM 3/4/98 , Yellowfeather, wrote: >>Howdy all, >> Does anyone know where I can buy >>some slow rust browning solution? > >Most any local chemical supplier should do. > > >1825 Receipt... > >To Brown Gun Barrels. > >After the barrel is finished rub it over with aqua fortis, or spirit >of >salt, diluted with water. Then lay it by for a week, till a complete >coat >of oil is formed. A little oil is then to be applied, and after >rubbing >the surface dry, polish it with a hard brush and a little bees' wax. > >another from circa 1865... > >To Brown Iron and Steel Objects. > >Dissolve 2 parts of crystallized chloride of iron, 2 parts of solid >chloride of antimony, and 1 part of gallic acid, in 4 or 5 parts of >water. >With this moisten a piece of sponge or cloth and apply to the object, >a >gun-barrel for instance. Let it dry in the air, and repeat the >operation >several times; then wash with water; dry, and rub with boiled >linseed-oil. >Objects browned in this way have a very agreeable dead gray >appearance, and >the shade deepens according to the number of times the operation is >repeated. > >end receipts... > >Chemical Equivalents > >Aqua Fortis = Nitric Acid >Spirit of Salt = Hydrochloric or Muriatic Acid > >Chloridizing (converting various metals into a chloride by treating >with >chlorine or hydrochloric acid) was developed in the late nineteenth >century. > >Gallic or Gallotonnic Acid = Nut Gall derivative. > >John... > > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer >kramer@kramerize.com > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 05 Mar 1998 00:09:02 -0500 i own a house in st charles and have a lot of friends that are in the mountain man stuff. I am a member of the AMM #256 if that tells you how far back i go. I also have several friends in the ill rangers but they don't discuss it with me because of some problems back several years when i threatened to take some hair. did a little canoe ride back several years ago about 45 days and ended at the festival of the little hills in st charles. saw lots of river and and a lot of misquetoes but was a lot of fun. do you know dan saterfield or terry mephy. dan lives in old town and my house is in middle town st charles. a very close friend of mine vernon smith was a menber of the ill rangers for several years. hope they get the boat put together and all is well, drop me a note once and a while enough for now. keep your nose to the wind and your eyes along the skyline. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:36:28 EST Traphand writes: >do not know the people you speak of. we left washington to new haven >got >caught in a big storm half up river.my hat is off to the man running >the >boat,he did a great job.i take it that you are a ill.ranger.i an a mo >ranger >out of fort osage along the river. i know a couple of the ill boys.we >ahaving >a symposium up in arrow rock mo. march 28 29it will be about fort >wayne >in1812,tippicanoe,osage trading house atarrow rock,round table >discussion,political maniplation of the militaryin 1812,nathan >boone,osage >indians,amer.cavalry swords 1st infantry at lundys lane. me know and i >will >hook you upto my email. got to run dinner coming, > > traphand > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 05 Mar 1998 02:37:42 EST In a message dated 98-03-04 23:45:20 EST, you write: << Does anyone know of 1830's vintage distillery floorplans showing a typical distillery and what activities took place in each of the rooms? >> Might check with Jim Beam -- they been cookin' whisky since 1795. One of the few still existing "period" American distilleries. They're pretty proud of their history -- expecialy since they just celebrated their 200th year of whisky making. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 02:37:53 EST In a message dated 98-03-04 10:17:35 EST, you write: << However, I don't have any real good sources on what the molds were like at that point. Has any body seen something they could reccomend? >> Rapine makes what you want. Tad pricy compared to the brass molds Dixie Gun Works sells (about $10 higher), but much higher quality than DGW. I have both brands & of the 2 DGW molds I have, one is off size -- supposed to be a .440, but throws .428 - .431 -- quite a bit undersized. The .490 from them runs pretty true to size ( +.002 fluctuation). Both Rapines I have are dead nutz on size with less size fluctuation than the DGWs & don't have the dimple in the bottom the DGWs have so will have full weight that size ball should have. The DGWs I have have some irregularities in the machining causing some ridging in the ball's surface -- Rapine has much smoother machining, therefore casts a smoother ball. If you just want a mold to stick in your bag & occasionaly run a few ball by the campfire & do most of your casting at home with your lead furnace & multiple cavity molds, then the DGW molds will work as a good period bag mold. If, on the other hand, you're looking to get only 1 mold to do all your casting for that size, get the Rapine. Rapine also makes excelent double cavity production molds if you don't mind aluminum molds & learn how to use them -- they work a bit differently than the steel molds. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gardens Date: 05 Mar 1998 09:00:42 -0500 Longwalker, I have bottle/birdhouse seeds. I tried canteen gourds last year and they didn't do well. Will try them again this year. What are Indian melons? You can sure start gardens early out that way. I don't feel safe until the 1st of May. Repost your snail mail to me and I'll send you some seeds. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 05 Mar 1998 09:49:02 -0600 (CST) >Need some help on sources. > >Am doing a paper (who knows where it will end up going), the focus of which is >Turley's Mill, north of Taos and the home of Taos Lightning. Exported by >Turley since 1831 it found its way to many forts and rondys. Of course >Turley's Mill was destroyed in 1847 during the Taos Rebellion where a number >of mountain men where either murdered or otherwise involved. Have some new >information about the mill and would like to place it not only in context with >the Taos Rebellion but also whiskey in the fur trade. > >Anyone know of articles that have been done on whiskey in the fur trade and >where they might be found? There is a good book called _Whiskey Peddler: John Healy, North Frontier Trader_, by William R. Hunt (1993), which deals in part with his role in the whiskey trade between Montana and Canada. It wasn't during the Rendezvous era, but in the 1860s, after HBC gave up Rupert's Lands in Alberta, and left a vaccuum which the Canadian government was unable to fill until the (1874) creation of the Northwest Mounted Police. Until that time, the whiskey trade was wide open and unregulated. American officials squelched the trade which had operated out of Fort Benton, but traders simply moved to Alberta and established Fort Hamilton (the precursor to the city of Calgary) and inticed trading Indians to travel up the Whoop Up Trail to trade furs, robes, etc for goods and whiskey (Fort Hamilton was also called Fort Whoop Up). It is a fascinating story of commerce, diplomacy, and good old adventure. The book is well written and well illustrated with photos and maps. The publisher is Mountain Press Publishing, out of Missoula. Worth the 12.00 price, although I found mine at Half-Price Books. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 05 Mar 1998 09:51:50 -0600 (CST) ><< Does anyone know of 1830's vintage distillery floorplans showing a typical > distillery and what activities took place in each of the rooms? >> > > >Might check with Jim Beam -- they been cookin' whisky since 1795. One of the >few still existing "period" American distilleries. They're pretty proud of >their history -- expecialy since they just celebrated their 200th year of >whisky making. > >NM Beam's website is www.jimbeam.com Yahoo has a good list of other whiskey websites at http://www.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Companies/Drinks/Alcoholic/Whiskey / HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 10:50:00 -0700 Anybody have a phone number for the Rapine company? Thanks... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Metcalfe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soapmaking Date: 05 Mar 1998 11:02:17 -0700 Well Jim, You got another something started around the cabin now. Made a small batch of soap from the information found on the link you provided. Also, in the information, is a table of numbers for use in substituting fats. In place of dripping ashes (percolating water through a box of ashes) to obtain the lye and then cooking with an uncertain amount of fat, I chose to use a lye that had already been concentrated (Red Devil). Also, I substituted some vegetable oil and coconut oil for some of the tallow using the numbers in the table. You don't have to cook these recipes at all - they are done at about 85 F verses the 125 F recommended in the link site. I found that it's the coconut oil in "Kirks" cold water Castile that provides the lather. You are suppose-to wait 3 or 4 weeks before using to allow the soap to become milder but just had to try mine the other day (6 days). I'm very pleased with the results and will be mixing up a different recipe this afternoon. By-the-way, I used lard in place of tallow for a portion of the fat. It's the lard or tallow that caused the objectionable scent we hear about and may have experienced. You can cook-up a concentrated brew of pine needles, sage, or other plants to add to cover most meat scent. It's easy and fun and as usual comes with the satisfaction you get when making things yourself. Jim Lindberg wrote: > I was out surfing and found this soapmaking page, I have no ties. > > http://members.aol.com/oelaineo/soapmaking.html -- William Metcalfe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 13:05:58 EST >From personal experience, the Dixie Molds are NOT very precision. Found that mine is slightly oversized, and that it also produces circular ridges on the ball. Also, there is a flat spot on one side of the ball. The balls I have seen run from Rapine molds have appeared to be perfect. Like many things we buy in life, it seems you get what you pay for. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jack-scratch@juno.com (Richard D Heyen) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rust Brown Reciept Date: 05 Mar 1998 15:22:05 EST It is my understanding that the best browning results are achieved not by one application, but by repeated applications and cleanings. The more times you brown it and clean it of. The better your brown will be. I highly recomend Foxfire 5. It covers browning and more, plus it should be easy to find. Sincerely, Jack Scratch Drew Heyen jack-scratch@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawker Amm Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 18:58:57 EST Check RAPINE BAG MOULDS. Excellent period molds. they are located at Rapine Bullet Mould Mfg. Co. 9503 Landis Lane East Greenville, PA 18041 For two bucks they will send you a catalog. Hawker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 05 Mar 1998 17:27:55 EST HAWK,ITHINK I MAY KNOW TERRY MURPHY IT RINGS A BELL,IS VEMON AN OLD GUY WITH WHITE HAIR AN THIN AROUND IN HIS 60S.I ALSO USED TO BE IN THE AMM UNTIL PROBLEMS IN THE PARTY.NOW WE TRAK WITH A LOT OF EX MUNBERS. GOT ONE IN THE WORKS THIS COMING APRIL.YOUR NUMBER IS A EARLY ONE.MINE WAS 1205IN 88 THE CLERK E WAS LARRY MAYES. GOD IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SURE FLYS BY FAST. I RECALL THE FIRST AMM DOING I WENT IN OHIO BAD TIMEAND PLACE IT WAS LIKE CAMPING AT A K.O.A. MEET ALOT GOOD SOULS.LAST ONE I WENT TO WAS IN SOUTHERN MISSOURI A FEW YEAR BACK HAD ONE GREAT TIME SHOOTING AND TRAPPING.RECALL GOING TO LITTLE ROCK THEY HAD A DUGOUTDOWN THERE/HAVE YOU EVER USED ONE SURE SAT LOW IN THE WATER.GOT TO RUN. KEEP IN TOUCH. TRAPHAND ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soapmaking Date: 05 Mar 1998 17:47:29 -0600 (MDT) Well give us your recipe and cooking instructions!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams Subject: MtMan-List: Mississippi/Louisiana Sites Date: 05 Mar 1998 17:52:24 -0600 (MDT) I'm visiting Louisiana and Mississippi the end of April. It would be nice to know of some sites to visit. I've got Vicksburg and the War of 1812 site outside of New Orleans to see. Any others that might be interesting. Maybe even some sutlers. Thanks Rick Williams ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Running ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 20:09:23 EST Rapine Bullet Mould Company is located at 9503 Landis Lane East Greenville, Pennsylvania 18041 PJ. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: MtMan-List: Running Ball Date: 05 Mar 1998 20:22:09 EST The phone number for Rapine Bullet Mould Mfg. Company is 215-679-5413. Sorry I wasn't reading the previous post, thought you asked for address. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 06 Mar 1998 01:17:09 EST Pat, For some info on use of liquor in the fur trade, particularly with the American Fur Co, try Don Berry, "A Majority of Scoundrels" and David Lavender, "A Fist in the Wilderness." Both are readily available and while somewhat general in nature, may at least have some references you can use. Jim Hardee AMM #1676 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mstar176@wf.net (Basha Richey) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mississippi/Louisiana Sites Date: 06 Mar 1998 00:56:32 +0100 > Any others that might be >interesting. Maybe even some sutlers. > Rick, If you can make it up to Natchitoches in the west central part of the state it might be worth a look. The city is the oldest permanent settlement in La. Fort St. Jean Baptiste was established by Juchereau de St. Denis in 1714, to off-set the Spanish influence in Texas. It had a population of almost 3000 in 1810 and was a major route for settlers traveling to Texas, in it's early history. It was served by riverboat traffic untill, the river changed course in the 1830's. They have a reconstruction of the French fort, many old homes near the river, some business buildings that were bulit in 1830's (one still has the original gaslights). The Melrose Plantation south of town has several buildings made of hand carved cypress and a giant live oak in the front yard that has a drip line of at least 45 paces. They claim to know that the tree is over 220 years old. They have a building where they made their own fabrics from the cotton they grew and it still contains a loom. Nachitoches also has some civil war history and they have a nice, small museum. They are famous for Meat pies which they sold to travelers passing through. Also good food in town, and no, I don't work for the chamber of commerce! Good luck, John "Yellow Stone" Richey Chico, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution Date: 06 Mar 1998 07:59:22 EST I just finished two barrels using Laurel Mountain's solution. Both came out pretty well, and niether one was degreased first. Each one took me about three days, with about four coats per day. So far, the coats seem even and durrable. I havn't had any problems with pitting, even though I tried leaving a coat on over night once. Both were finished by rubbing on a coat of boiled linseed oil. That really brought the color out nicely. The important thing is to keep your coats extremely even. There are some small spots around the fixed sights that came out a little discolored. Also, coats should be kept nice and light, with cleaning the barrel between each coat to remove scaling. I also did mine in the upstairs bathroom for humidity! As for the cost, I paid $6.75 for a bottle that did two full barrels and all the mounts for one of the rifles. I even have about one fourth of the bottle left. All in all, I thought it was good stuff. I'll use it in future. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soapmaking Date: 06 Mar 1998 09:09:48 -0600 I remember making soap in chemistry class in high school (a long time ago). It's something I've been going to try again, but pretty low on the list. B^) One of the Foxfire books covers soap making too. Be like Granny on the Beverly Hillbillies and mix up a batch by the cement pond. B^) Glad the site was of help. Jim /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue | \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Metcalfe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mississippi/Louisiana Sites Date: 06 Mar 1998 07:18:37 -0700 Rick, Soapmaking: A hyper link should have been in the quoted original message that was included in my reply. Anyway here it is: http://members.aol.com/oelaineo/soapmaking.html Rick Williams wrote: > Well give us your recipe and cooking instructions!!!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...........<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Trip: Also, in response to your visit to Louisiana and Mississippi, you must visit and travel the Natchez Trace which was an emigration and trade route of the Natchez Indians, early settlers and others. I believe it stretches from the Appalachians down to at least Natchez, MS. You should be able to find considerable information about it on the net. The Natchez area is part of my family's history - still a few of us there. Have fun! Rick Williams wrote: > I'm visiting Louisiana and Mississippi the end of April. It would be > nice to know of some sites to visit. I've got Vicksburg and the War > of 1812 site outside of New Orleans to see. Any others that might be > interesting. Maybe even some sutlers. > > Thanks > Rick Williams -- William Metcalfe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 06 Mar 1998 09:24:45 -0700 mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) wrote : >There is a good book called _Whiskey Peddler: John Healy, North Frontier >Trader_, by William R. Hunt (1993), which deals in part with his role in >the whiskey trade between Montana and Canada. It wasn't during the >Rendezvous era, but in the 1860s, after HBC gave up Rupert's Lands in >Alberta, and left a vaccuum which the Canadian government was unable to >fill until the (1874) creation of the Northwest Mounted Police. Until that >time, the whiskey trade was wide open and unregulated. American officials >squelched the trade which had operated out of Fort Benton, but traders >simply moved to Alberta and established Fort Hamilton (the precursor to the >city of Calgary) and inticed trading Indians to travel up the Whoop Up >Trail to trade furs, robes, etc for goods and whiskey (Fort Hamilton was >also called Fort Whoop Up). It's not my period, but it IS my neighborhood, so I have to add a couple of notes: the whisky trade started up after the HBC ceded 'Rupert's Land' (Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta) to Canada in 1869. In May 1873, about 30 Assiniboine Indians were massacred by whites near the whisky fort called Farwell's Post (the Cypress Hills Massacre). As a result, the NWMP was formed to clamp down on the illicit whisky trade here in Alberta. There were a number of other small whisky posts, such as Kipp's Post, Standoff, and Slideout, but Fort Hamilton was the big one. It is much better-known here as Fort Whoop-up. It was not on the site of Calgary; it is a few hundred miles to the south, on the site of the city of Lethbridge. In fact, the recreated Fort Whoop-up is in Lethbridge, and Lethbridge celebrates Whoop-up Days every year. Calgary was pretty much bald prairie until the NWMP arrived and set up Fort Calgary in 1875. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Trip to Alabama Date: 06 Mar 1998 11:38:33 -0500 Hello the list, Just got word that I will be travelling to the Anniston/Ft. McClellan, Al. area the last week in March and the first week in April. If anyone on the list is in that area and would like to get together for Supper/ale or just a visit, let me know. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 11:57:43 -0500 I am taking a FANTASTIC trip this summer (August)to Nebraska and the Dakotas. Am definately going to stop and see the Museum of the Fur Trade, the Black Hills, Cabella's , etc... Anyone got any other points of interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur Trade?? Any help would be appreciated. I'd love some little out of the way places that are not well known... ghost towns, etc... Thanks Addison Miller aka SeanBear ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 06 Mar 1998 11:54:22 -0500 There is an authentic receipe on my web page... sorry, the sender of the email to me and the hard copy have been lost... Check www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/1427 Addison Miller >Pat, > >For some info on use of liquor in the fur trade, particularly with the >American Fur Co, try Don Berry, "A Majority of Scoundrels" and David Lavender, >"A Fist in the Wilderness." Both are readily available and while somewhat >general in nature, may at least have some references you can use. > >Jim Hardee >AMM #1676 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 15:36:45 -0600 Washtahay- At 11:57 AM 3/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >I am taking a FANTASTIC trip this summer (August)to Nebraska and the >Dakotas. Am definately going to stop and see the Museum of the Fur Trade, >the Black Hills, Cabella's , etc... Anyone got any other points of >interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur Trade?? Well, Fort Atkinson would be one good point to stop at, as would the Joslyn Museum, the Nebraska State Historical Society Museum, Morrill Hall, Stuhr Museum, that-museum-at-Hastings-that-I-always-forget-the-name-of, maybe a side trip to the Lewis and Clark site in IA, a day kicking around the Pine Ridge or hiking near Scott's Bluff, Fort Robinson, maybe a visit to an archaeological dig, give me a little time and I can come up with a few more goodies. > >Any help would be appreciated. I'd love some little out of the way places >that are not well known... ghost towns, etc... Ain't got any real ghost towns in Nebraska. Might put you onto a spring up in the Sand Hills about five miles from the road-several years ago I packed some trout back to it. Doin' fine last I saw. I can put you onto some old Indian campsites, bison kill sites, historical graves, graveyards, massacre sites-I have lived here most of my life. Let's get together on this. Offer goes for anyone else, too. LongWalker c du B. (and tourist guide) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution Date: 06 Mar 1998 13:16:02 -0600 Got an address? Sounds worth looking at! And I don't have to hunt for the chemicals! Or mix them! Ken ---------- > From: JFLEMYTH > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution > Date: Friday, March 06, 1998 6:59 AM > > I just finished two barrels using Laurel Mountain's solution. Both came out > pretty well, and niether one was degreased first. Each one took me about > three days, with about four coats per day. So far, the coats seem even and > durrable. I havn't had any problems with pitting, even though I tried leaving > a coat on over night once. Both were finished by rubbing on a coat of boiled > linseed oil. That really brought the color out nicely. > > The important thing is to keep your coats extremely even. There are some > small spots around the fixed sights that came out a little discolored. Also, > coats should be kept nice and light, with cleaning the barrel between each > coat to remove scaling. I also did mine in the upstairs bathroom for > humidity! > > As for the cost, I paid $6.75 for a bottle that did two full barrels and all > the mounts for one of the rifles. I even have about one fourth of the bottle > left. > > All in all, I thought it was good stuff. I'll use it in future. > > John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 06 Mar 1998 17:19:28 -0600 (CST) > but Fort Hamilton was the big one. It is much >better-known here as Fort Whoop-up. It was not on the site of Calgary; it is >a few hundred miles to the south, on the site of the city of Lethbridge. In >fact, the recreated Fort Whoop-up is in Lethbridge, and Lethbridge >celebrates Whoop-up Days every year. Calgary was pretty much bald prairie >until the NWMP arrived and set up Fort Calgary in 1875. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred Angela, are you familiar with Jack Gladstone's song "Whoop Up Trail"? Jack performed it at a museum conference I attended in Missoula last fall. He's a Blackfoot living in Kalispell, and quite a balladeer. Thanks for correcting me on the location of the fort. I am glad they've recreated it. How is the reconstruction, pretty accurate or Disney-esque? Is the event worth going to? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ************* So Long, Harry ************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HKUSP9410 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 18:54:55 EST In a message dated 98-03-06 17:35:47 EST, you write: << Ain't got any real ghost towns in Nebraska. Might put you onto a spring up in the Sand Hills about five miles from the road-several years ago I packed some trout back to it. Doin' fine last I saw. I can put you onto some old Indian campsites, bison kill sites, historical graves, graveyards, massacre sites-I have lived here most of my life. Let's get together on this. Offer goes for anyone else, too. LongWalker c du B. (and tourist guide) >> I am in Denver, CO and I ocassionally wander over to McConahay for some catfishin. How close are ya to there??? Mebe sometime I come over and just wander the hills some? Watch yer TopKnot Missouri Mule ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 19:14:26 EST You'll be on the 'road', the North Platte. Check out the river. Walk along it. Feel it. That's where 'they" went. Check out where the South Platte breaks off from the North platte. Get the journals that talk about where they camped. Stephen H. Long's expedition, described in "From Pittsburgh to the rocky Mountains" by Maxine Benson is excellent for that. Pat. Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 06 Mar 1998 17:35:36 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4926.4611D2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last July my new bride and I went on our honeymoon to SD WY MT ID the museum of the fur trade is excellent, come from the south to The Mammoth site at Hot Springs SD then up to Crazy Horse Mont. Mt Rushmore, to Deadwood SD, Sturgis SD, go west to WY to Devils Tower, North to The Crow reservation at the battle of the bighorn. You'll love it. We did. This year we are going to Pierres Hole ID near Driggs ID To our AMM national for a few days then to some fishing in Yellowstone. Well have fun I could tell you more places in WY but you didn't say you were going west much. Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: Addison O. Miller : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: August trip : Date: Friday, March 06, 1998 8:57 AM : : I am taking a FANTASTIC trip this summer (August)to Nebraska and the : Dakotas. Am definately going to stop and see the Museum of the Fur Trade, : the Black Hills, Cabella's , etc... Anyone got any other points of : interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur Trade?? : : Any help would be appreciated. I'd love some little out of the way places : that are not well known... ghost towns, etc... : : Thanks : : Addison Miller : aka SeanBear : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4926.4611D2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Last July my new bride and I went on = our honeymoon to SD WY MT ID the museum of the fur trade is excellent, = come from the south to The Mammoth site at Hot Springs SD then up to = Crazy Horse Mont.  Mt Rushmore,  to Deadwood SD,  Sturgis = SD,  go west to WY to Devils Tower,  North to The Crow = reservation at the battle of the bighorn.  You'll love it.  We = did.  This year we are going to Pierres Hole ID near Driggs ID To = our AMM national for a few days then to some fishing in Yellowstone. =  Well have fun I could tell you more places in WY but you didn't = say you were going west much.  Later Jon = Towns


----------
: From: Addison O. Miller <sean@naplesnet.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: August trip
: Date: = Friday, March 06, 1998 8:57 AM
:
: I am taking a FANTASTIC trip = this summer (August)to Nebraska and the
: Dakotas. Am definately = going to stop and see the Museum of the Fur Trade,
: the Black Hills, = Cabella's <chuckles>, etc... Anyone got any other points of
: = interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur = Trade??
:
: Any help would be appreciated.  I'd love some = little out of the way places
: that are not well known... ghost = towns, etc...
:
: Thanks
:
: Addison Miller
: aka = SeanBear
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD4926.4611D2C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trip to Alabama Date: 07 Mar 1998 02:36:52 EST Scott, I just finished reading your outstanding article on Fort Frederick in this month's "Muzzleloader". It is on the top of my list of places to visit when I get back east. I'll show you Fort Vancouver iffin you get out this way. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 07 Mar 1998 10:52:05 -0500 yes vernon is getting very gray hared him and evelin have moved to bauluxia miss. he is doing a lit of wood carving but not many guns as he did. he is getting quite old but still has a lot of tallent. his AMM # is around 150's. terry has kind of dropped off the face of the map bought some land in south central mo. and i dont know where. havent seen him in about 2 or 3 years. My second AMM doins was the first annual goat and pig shoot put on by dale Black and pappy horn. we used the oka valley land and held our doins. the contest was a trial for even a real mountain man. it consisted of about 15 shots, set a trap in a running stream, and all the targets you had to find yourself. most of them were moving that were released by one of the guides that went with you. you had to follow sign through the woods and figure where they were and what to do. It was a hel of a lot of fun. I think i only found 10 of the targets and killed them all the rest i have no idea where they were. dale was my scorkeeper and wouldnt tell me anything. for the tommahawk there was a target on the back of the block that you had to hit. not on the front. the front of the block has your knife target. Orval Humphry was the oficial at the knife and hawk part of the match. the tommahawk matches at friendship are named after him. he taught me the art of plain and fancy tommahawk throwing. I spent many hrs with him and lost a lot of handles in the process. this has sure gotten off the keel boat stuff that we started with. must close for now got a order for a bunch of turkey calls that have to be made and shipped. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:27:55 EST Traphand writes: >HAWK,ITHINK I MAY KNOW TERRY MURPHY IT RINGS A BELL,IS VEMON AN OLD >GUY WITH >WHITE HAIR AN THIN AROUND IN HIS 60S.I ALSO USED TO BE IN THE AMM >UNTIL >PROBLEMS IN THE PARTY.NOW WE TRAK WITH A LOT OF EX MUNBERS. GOT ONE >IN THE >WORKS THIS COMING APRIL.YOUR NUMBER IS A EARLY ONE.MINE WAS 1205IN 88 >THE >CLERK E >WAS LARRY MAYES. GOD IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SURE FLYS BY FAST. >I RECALL THE FIRST AMM DOING I WENT IN OHIO BAD TIMEAND PLACE IT WAS >LIKE >CAMPING AT A K.O.A. MEET ALOT GOOD SOULS.LAST ONE I WENT TO WAS IN >SOUTHERN >MISSOURI A FEW YEAR BACK HAD ONE GREAT TIME SHOOTING AND >TRAPPING.RECALL >GOING TO LITTLE ROCK THEY HAD A DUGOUTDOWN THERE/HAVE YOU EVER USED >ONE SURE >SAT LOW IN THE WATER.GOT TO RUN. KEEP IN TOUCH. > > TRAPHAND > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Laurel Mountain Forge browning solution Date: 07 Mar 1998 13:38:37 EST I got my Laurel Mountain at "Ye Old Blackpowder Shoppe" here in Michigan. (They also do mail order.) IT is a few hours drive from my house, so I have only been there that one time, but I sure was impressed. There address is: Ye Old Blackpowder Shoppe P.O. Box 14 994 W. Midland Road Auburn, Michigan 48611 (517) 662-2271 There catalog is four dollars and has more than 120 pages of goods. They also have some custom front stuffers that are not included in the catalog. If you want the Laurel Mountain Forge solution, it's $6.75. It's inventory # is 26-24. It's on page 62 of their 8th edition catalog. That should be all you need to get it. I would reccomend getting their catalog too. It's not the best I've seen, but it's up there. John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mississippi/Louisiana Sites Date: 07 Mar 1998 18:07:06 EST out in Villcherie about 45 minutes on the far side of the airport is the Laura Plantation. We went this year during Mardi Gras week. It was real nice. Get a book called Louisiana Day Ride, it has day trips 1, 2, 3 & 4 hours from New Orleans. We go every year at least once. Feel free to E-mail me. If you go eat at Spuddy's it ain't fancy but the food is gooooooood ! Watch your topknot JS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 07 Mar 1998 23:56:21 EST i enjoy your tid bits of information ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 08 Mar 1998 16:25:09 -0600 Addison O. Miller wrote: > > I am taking a FANTASTIC trip this summer (August)to Nebraska and the > Dakotas. ... Anyone got any other points of > interest in Nebraska and the Dakotas to see with regards to the Fur Trade?? Depends on how much of those territories you would like to traverse, but there's Fort Union (other end of N. Dakota, and the site is actually partly in Montana); Reconstruction of Fort Mandan, N. of Bismarck, where Lewis & Clark spent there first winter (the original site washed away when the Wide Missouri changed it's mind; Site of Fort Clark, a fur trading post, N. of Bismarck (hardly anything left, but a good place to reflect); and the Mandan- Hidatsa Villages ( I think they now call it three knives or something like that. The last three sites are close to each other. Are you driving from FL? If you are coming thru Kansas City, see the Arabia riverboat museum where they dug up a 1946? sunken riverboat. But don't drool like I did at the tons of actual period stuff they salvaged. And the cemetary where Jim Bridger is buried (near Independence) And in St. Louis, the Gateway Museum is relatively school-childish, but has some good stuff. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gardens Date: 08 Mar 1998 16:35:59 -0600 Longwalker wrote: > bottle gourd seeds I found that http://www.seedman.com/Rachel/Gourds.htm has bottle gourd seeds and other gourd seeds. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: MtMan-List: fabric reproductions 1775-1950 Date: 08 Mar 1998 17:13:45 +0000 Found a site that specializes in reproduction fabrics. Really beautiful. http://www.patchworks-usa.com Happy sewing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand Subject: Re: MtMan-List: keelboat from st.charles mo. Date: 08 Mar 1998 19:51:34 EST do you know what happened to paddy horn have not seen him in a few years.did a photo shoot of the harper ferry rilfe that is in muzzeloader 2 book of. paddy put two small nail in the wall to hold the rilfe up. i took one photo before the rilfe fall to the floor.it creaked the wrist right in back on the breech. glad i did not do the nailing.about this time john the owner of the gun had himself a good scream.yes it is a far cry from the keelboat good by my friend traphand P.S. IT ODD WHO WE BOTH KNOW ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Whiskey in the Fur Trade Date: 08 Mar 1998 19:51:41 -0700 mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) wrote: >Angela, are you familiar with Jack Gladstone's song "Whoop Up Trail"? Jack >performed it at a museum conference I attended in Missoula last fall. He's >a Blackfoot living in Kalispell, and quite a balladeer. No; sounds like it's right up my alley though. Has he got a tape or CD? I'm always keen on folk/country singers with a taste for history. Canada seems to have a fair number of these folks, if you know where to find them : Great Western Orchestra, Tamarack, & of course the patron saint of Canadian folk, Stan Rogers. The Gladstones are a well-known family here in Alberta--James Gladstone was Alberta's first Native senator, about 30 years ago. > Thanks for >correcting me on the location of the fort. I am glad they've recreated it. >How is the reconstruction, pretty accurate or Disney-esque? Well, as I said, it's not my period, but it does look just like the historic photographs. Understaffed, of course, but I think it's probably worth a visit if you're in Lethbridge. (We'll be at Fort Whoop-up to give a talk & demo next month, so I can give you an update if you want.) The setting is excellent--it's down in a deep wide river valley, so that you can't see the city (although there is that HUGE train bridge traversing the valley). > Is the event worth going to? Whoops! Sorry, "Whoop-Up Days" isn't a reenactment event. Although I've never been, I understand that it is more like the Calgary Stampede--a big rodeo, fair & exhibition, with only a very small nod to history. The black powder guys down there have a big shoot on the Labour Day weekend, but I understand they don't have any serious reenactors down there. (I'd be quite happy to be proven wrong--I'm always looking to recruit.) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trip to Alabama Date: 09 Mar 1998 09:07:27 -0500 Steve, Thanks so much for the kind words about my article. I'd be glad to show you around when you get back here and would be glad to see Ft. Vancouver too. I'm out at Ft. Lewis (Seattle) every once in awhile so could probably swing a tour there. See ya! Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tripping to the N.W. Date: 08 Mar 1998 21:54:07 -0800 Greetings Scott, I must concure with Steve on your article on Fort Frederick, I'd love to tour it. If you happen to find yourself in the Seattle area, I'm sure I could arrange a tour of Fort Nisqually. Best regards, Terry Smith SWcushing wrote: > > Scott, > I just finished reading your outstanding article on Fort Frederick in >this month's "Muzzleloader". It is on the top of my list of places to >visit when I get back east. I'll show you Fort Vancouver iffin you get >out this way. > Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mstar176@wf.net (Basha Richey) Subject: MtMan-List: Sack hats Date: 09 Mar 1998 11:11:20 +0100 Longtrail, Nice link for reproduction fabrics. Patchworks, is going on my favorite list. I was particularly intrested in the indigo material. Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. The one that comes to mind, is the oil painting of the "Trappers Bride". Two of the trappers in the background are wearing "sacks". It seems to me, that if you didn't have a hat, that one of these simple creations would be a good substitute. Miller also shows hunters using them to approach game, on all-fours, as camoflodge. In the AJM painting titled "Trappers and horses around a fire" used as an illustration in Ruxtons "Life In The Far West"(edited by Hafen) is a trapper wearing a "sack" made with a checked or crossed, striped pattern. Since the bags were made out of anything that was available (my opinion) then a piece if the woven Indigo from patchworks might be a nice piece of material for a reproduction of that trappers "Sky Piece". I believe Paul Mueller said in a recent link, that hoods were not attached to capotes, rather were buttoned or tied on. Am I wrong about the "sacks" or were they hoods for Capotes? Miller's paintings have few, if any capotes, but it was summertime. If anybody would like to shed light on the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. John Richey "Yellow Stone" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Schaaf Dick Subject: RE: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 09 Mar 1998 11:07:22 -0500 Jim, you hit most of the best; I'd add Ft Hartsuff to the list. It's not quite fur trade period, but it's good! The state parks should be on the web, and they do offer quite a bit - Like ft Atkinson, Ft Robinson, and Ft hHartsuff. Jim, I spend a good bit of time around Burwell and Brewster in the sandhills. One of these days we'll have to link up. Dick > ---------- > From: Jim Colburn > Well, Fort Atkinson would be one good point to stop at, as > would the > Joslyn Museum, the Nebraska State Historical Society Museum, Morrill > Hall, > Stuhr Museum, > that-museum-at-Hastings-that-I-always-forget-the-name-of, > maybe a side trip to the Lewis and Clark site in IA, a day kicking > around > the Pine Ridge or hiking near Scott's Bluff, Fort Robinson.... > LongWalker c du B. (and tourist guide) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tripping to the N.W. Date: 09 Mar 1998 09:43:28 -0600 This is starting to sound so good that I may run away from home and tag along behind Scott! Oh for the good old days when we could just say to heck with it and run off to the mountains! Did I hear someone say something about the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron being sold? If so, does anyone know where it will be moved to? We stopped off there in 1975 after the Henry's Fork rendezvous. Do they still publish a bulletin? YellowFeather AMM 251 ---------- > From: tigrbo1 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tripping to the N.W. > Date: Sunday, March 08, 1998 11:54 PM > > Greetings Scott, > > I must concure with Steve on your article on Fort Frederick, I'd love > to tour it. If you happen to find yourself in the Seattle area, I'm sure > I could arrange a tour of Fort Nisqually. > > Best regards, > > Terry Smith > > > SWcushing wrote: > > > > Scott, > > I just finished reading your outstanding article on Fort Frederick in >this month's "Muzzleloader". It is on the top of my list of places to >visit when I get back east. I'll show you Fort Vancouver iffin you get >out this way. > > Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pamela Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fabric reproductions 1775-1950 Date: 09 Mar 1998 11:39:04 -0600 Really super fabrics! Thanks for the info. YellowFeather ---------- > From: Longtrail > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: fabric reproductions 1775-1950 > Date: Sunday, March 08, 1998 11:13 AM > > Found a site that specializes in reproduction fabrics. Really > beautiful. http://www.patchworks-usa.com > Happy sewing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 09 Mar 1998 18:39:21 EST In a message dated 98-03-08 17:47:30 EST, you write: << And in St. Louis, the Gateway Museum is relatively school-childish, but has some good stuff. >> Just pass on that and go to the Museum of History. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: MtMan-List: Pappy Horn Date: 09 Mar 1998 18:42:50 EST Last time I saw Pappy was about 4 years ago at the trade show in Effingham, Ill. Heard he was at Fort De Chartres last year but didn't see him. Effingham is the end of the month and maybe he will be set up there again. I'll let you know if I see him there. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sack hats Date: 09 Mar 1998 21:27:15 -0600 John Richey wrote: > Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. > It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated > corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are > many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. . . . If anybody would like to shed light on > the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. In Miller's notes for "Approaching the Buffalo" he writes: "The Hunters form for themselves a peculiar kind of cap, - it has two ears with a flap reaching the shoulders. - This is worn with a double object in view, - one of which is to deceive the buffalo in approaching; - under such guise the Hunter is mistaken by the animal for a wolf, & is suffered to advance quite near. - The mop of hair covering the fore-head of teh Buffalo obscures his sight & aids the trapper in his deception." (Editorializing and opinion starts here) In spite of being such a well-documented type of headgear, I have never seen one at any rendezvous I have ever attended. But you see plenty of animal-skin with head headdresses, which might be difficult to document. Sounds like the wolf-ear cap is an excellent candidate for a very worthwhile project. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 09 Mar 1998 21:48:40 -0600 (CST) >In a message dated 98-03-08 17:47:30 EST, you write: > ><< And in St. Louis, the Gateway Museum is relatively school-childish, but > has some good stuff. >> >Just pass on that and go to the Museum of History. I beg to differ. You might call ahead, talk to a curator, and make an appointment to see some of the collections (which are first-rate) Sometimes all it takes is a phone call. It helps to do a bit of background reading on the subject before you make your call. Be as specific as possible about what you wish to see, such as strikers, firearms (be specific), lighting devices, or clothing. If there's anything we curators despise is someone who "just wants to look." That won't even get you in the door. On the other hand, if you have a genuine interest in the material culture (objects) of the fur trade, the curator should be more than happy to show you around. Show that you are really interested in the subject and have a deep reverence (respect) for the material culture. We do really enjoy that, as long as you have a genuine interest, and can follow rules. The two biggies are 1. no touching without permission, and 2. don't go anywhere in the collection without staff escort. Curators might allow you to touch, but for most things white cotton or clear vinyl gloves are standard issue. Follow the rules, and you'll find there's nothing we like more than visitors with similar interests who can talk shop. It helps to pass the day, and usually helps us in our understanding of the period as well. The buzzword we use is "resource sharing." For more on this, see *BoBS vol. IV, p. 213, and BoBS vol V, p. 151. Have a good time. Cheers, HBC *Book of Buckskinning ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kat Subject: RE: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 07:20:10 -0500 There is also the Missouri Historical Society Library and Research Center on Skinker in downtown St. Louis. They have some pretty strict rules, but wonderful resources. begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A\,`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`Z $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````5P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&AI'1 ;&ES=',N>&UI``(P M`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````'0```&AI'1 ;&ES=',N>&UI'DR]`1X`< `!````' ```%)%.B!- M=$UA;BU,:7-T.B!!=6=UWH%0!C1" MM^81T;89PC0EPTH\```>`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````#P`` M`&MA=$!J86YR:7@N8V]M```#``80R+F4K ,`!Q",````'@`($ $```!E```` M5$A%4D5)4T%,4T]42$5-25-33U5224A)4U1/4DE#04Q33T-)15193$E"4D%2 M64%.1%)%4T5!4D-(0T5.5$523TY32TE.2T5224Y$3U=.5$]73E-43$]525-4 M2$592$%615-/30`````"`0D0`0```!0!```0`0``1@$``$Q:1G6B5+^.=P`* M`0,!]R "I /C`@!C@F@*P'-E=# @!Q--`H!]"H (R" ["6\RS#4U`H *@75C M`% +`P9C`$$+8&YG,3 S(C,+IB!4: 2092"%! `@!T!S;R!T%."G!= $`0AB M($@$`'0%L$QI8P= !@!O8PB0=,!Y($QI8G(*P!>0;0!P9 ?P!Y!E"L /<"!J M0PGP= 20( (@!@!K#0N :QE!"X @9&]WYP(P&F$&`'0N%Z (8 0`[QL`%-$7 MD ^ =A40%8 '@/P@< EP`D 7D!:@%M$%0 AR=6P'D"P@8G7M!4!W`B $@68= M`"6 M"" &``````# ````````1@````!4A0```0````0````X+C ``P`F@ @@!@`` M````P ```````$8``````84````````+`"^ "" &``````# ````````1@`` M```.A0````````,`,( (( 8``````, ```````!&`````!&%`````````P`R M@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````&(4````````>`$& "" &``````# ```` M````1@`````VA0```0````$`````````'@!"@ @@!@``````P ```````$8` M````-X4```$````!`````````!X`0X (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#B% L```!`````0`````````>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``0KR% ` end ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Schaaf Dick Subject: RE: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 07:43:57 -0500 I've got to say that one nice aspect of the Gateway Museum is the bookstore they have there. If you're in the area anyway, it's really worthwhile to scan what is available. They do have a pretty good booklist too. But they actually charge you for it! Still, it's worthwhile. Dick > ---------- > From: LODGEPOLE[SMTP:LODGEPOLE@aol.com] > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Monday, March 09, 1998 6:39 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip > > In a message dated 98-03-08 17:47:30 EST, you write: > > << And in St. Louis, the Gateway Museum is relatively school-childish, > but > has some good stuff. >> > Just pass on that and go to the Museum of History. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 11:20:53 -0500 I am getting a STACK of printed stuff, and my route for the trip is starting to look like a free trapper comin back from the traders tent with a pot full o' spirits... Been to St Louis Gateway Museum several years ago, and loved it. Want to go again. Concentrating this time on ND, SD, Nebraska, and whats there. Definately going to Musueum of the Fur Trade, Mt. Rushmore , the Platte River where they split N and S... etc... Want some time by myself just to sit and reflect on the past and meditate. Sure wish the stones and the river could talk... My gods, the stories they could tell!! Since they can't, looks like we have to do it for them by keeping the traditions alive, and passing on the information. Off the subject, but I am reading a great book... "Lies My Teacher Told Me". I'll post the full infor later... book at home... I am at the office. It shows how history has been re-written to be politically correct, and is no where NEAR whatI was taught in school 35 years ago. Kinda makes ya wanna puke its so fanarkey now. I wonder how many times that was done even before I was in school... Anyway, thank you all SO much for the responses. And please, don't stop just because I said thank you.. Wantto see as much as I can in the 2 weeks I will be out there... Addison Miller aka SeanBear PS: Anyone at the NMLRA SE Ronny in Tallahassee in April, please look us up. Look for the tent with the sign "Mouse's House" in front of it... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 12:50:09 -0600 (CST) >I am getting a STACK of printed stuff, and my route for the trip is starting >to look like a free trapper comin back from the traders tent with a pot full >o' spirits... Been to St Louis Gateway Museum several years ago, and >loved it. Want to go again. Concentrating this time on ND, SD, Nebraska, >and whats there. Definately going to Musueum of the Fur Trade, Mt. Rushmore >, the Platte River where they split N and S... etc... Get Greg Franzwa's _Oregon Trail Revisited_ and the companion _Maps of the Oregon Trail_ to take with you. The trailside gravesites are particularly poingnant. The desolation and emensity of the land in places are quite extraordinary. Happy trails, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 13:52:24 -0600 Maybe someone can confirm or deny something I heard long ago. Rumor has it that the last existing, genuine, Fur Trade Warehouse in the world was torn down to build the Gateway arch. True or no? John.. P.S. To visit Mt. Rushmore approach from the South. A more scenic & pleasant drive than crawling through the carnival snake charmers lining the highway out of Rapid City. John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< - >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: St Louis warehouse district (August trip) Date: 10 Mar 1998 16:33:39 -0600 (CST) >Maybe someone can confirm or deny something I heard long ago. > >Rumor has it that the last existing, genuine, Fur Trade Warehouse in the >world was torn down to build the Gateway arch. I think the story goes that the warehouse district along the riverfront was torn down and replaced with the park, arch and museum. Also, that the look of the warehouse dist. had changed so dramatically by then that it bore little resemblance to that of fur trade days, and many of the buildings had become firetraps. That's the story I get. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip Date: 10 Mar 1998 19:25:02 EST if i an not mistaken it sat on the park grounds.do you need exact loc.of this .warehouse.but i could find out.is this your first trip to st.louis.outside of st.louis we also have a cave called traven bluff are traven cave were lewis and clark stopped.its about a mile and half walk up some railroad tracks to the cave. if you would like more infor about it let me know. traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sack hats/Animal Efigy Hunting Hoods Date: 11 Mar 1998 12:30:47 -0700 Dear Sack Hats, (as Dear Abbey might respond) If you interpret the "sack hat" just from the paintings of Alfred Jacob Miller you are basing your interpretation on one of the tree's branches and ignoring the roots. If you examine the roots, you can gain an understanding even deeper than that of artist Miller and gain a greater appreciation of what he was painting. Studying just the one branch of the tree you'll create a good picture of the entire tree. What are more generally referred to as, "animal efigy" hunting hoods, were common among the Indian tribes of northeast and great lakes as cold-weather hunting headgear. They were sketched by other artists besides Miller and some examples exist in museum collections in the northeast. Before woolen tradecloth and blankets were commonly available the Indians made them of dressed skins(and probably hides and furs). Though we often tend to forget or ignore it, many of the mountain men in the western fur trade had either blood connections or connections by marriage to tribes in the northeast. The Iroquois and the Ojibwa are probably the two tribes best documented as contributing blood and labor to the western fur trade. By 1800 there were already Christian Iroquois and mixed-blood hunters working for the Northwest Fur Company in the Rocky Mountains, and even though many of them came from Christian families in Lower Canada many also still clung to much of their traditional tribal culture. Remember that when the Hudson Bay Compay purchased the Northwest Fur Company they got most of the NWC's employees in the deal. Then when Ashley's men offered them more lucrative employment during their clash on the Weber River, many of the Iroquois and mixed bloods became employees of the St. Louis based company. Which is all to say, that it really wasn't all that far from Northest to the Rocky Mountains. This link is important to appreciate in understanding that there was a whole lot more to these funny-eared hats than Alfred Jacob MIller ever knew. Anthropologists studying the tribes that commonly wore the animal effigy hunting hoods suggest that like all of the other animal efigy Indian artifacts, they had religeous significance and were not just a type of primative camo to wear while crawling up on buffalo. Animals were a very important part of Indian religion and some animals had greater significance than others, depending on the particular culture. In the Northeast, hunting hoods have been documented as representing wolves, bears, and even owls. While anthropologists have documented a religeous connection, they have also generally conceded that we have lost our opportunity to fully understand the religious meaning of the all the various animal efigies created as parts of clothing, tools, pipes, etc.. Some of the insights we gain from studying the roots of these weird hats and depiction of the hunting hoods by other artists in addition to Miller are: the hats were primarily designed for cold-weather hunting; they were often made to be snug fitting and form to the head; they often tied under the chin; the hunting hoods were sewn of more kinds of material than just wool blanketing; there was a lot of variety in the hoods form and appearence; more than just one kind of animal is represented by the efigies; and last -- while we don't fully understand them -- we know that there was a lot more behind the origens of the hunting hoods than Miller recorded. Still hungry for more? Frank Waters, in his book, "The Man Who Killed the Deer," offers some good insight into how Indian religion and hunting practices interconnected. The book is centered on a Southwestern tribe but really helps to give you an Indian perspecive on hunting and animals. Dave T. -----Original Message----- >John Richey wrote: > >> Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. >> It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated >> corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are >> many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. . . . > If anybody would like to shed light on >> the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. > >In Miller's notes for "Approaching the Buffalo" he writes: > >"The Hunters form for themselves a peculiar kind of cap, - it has two >ears with a flap reaching the shoulders. - This is worn with a double >object in view, - one of which is to deceive the buffalo in approaching; >- under such guise the Hunter is mistaken by the animal for a wolf, & is >suffered to advance quite near. - The mop of hair covering the fore-head >of teh Buffalo obscures his sight & aids the trapper in his deception." > >(Editorializing and opinion starts here) In spite of being such a >well-documented type of headgear, I have never seen one at any >rendezvous I have ever attended. But you see plenty of animal-skin with >head headdresses, which might be difficult to document. Sounds like the >wolf-ear cap is an excellent candidate for a very worthwhile project. > >Iron Burner > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carlson Wagonlit Travel Subject: MtMan-List: new rifle Date: 11 Mar 1998 09:33:51 List, I want to use your knowledge. I am looking at building a new rifle. What does history tell us the mountain man carried with him during the Fur Trade in the Pacific Northwest Rocky Mountain area. I really want to build a flinter. Can anyone help? Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho travel@turbonet.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Date: 11 Mar 1998 13:58:06 -0700 Dear Detached, Saying a capote didn't have a hood is roughly the equivalent of saying a horse didn't have a tail, because by definition you can't have one without the other. Capote is a French word that by definition means "with a hood." The French word first started popping up in fur trade records written by French fur traders describing the hooded skin garments worn by Indians of the subarctic region of Canada, way back when French was the dominant language of the fur trade. If you look at many of the primary sources of information about trade goods for the Rocky Mountains, you'll see references to big overcoats made out of wool blankets -- in which the American and British traders didn't use the French word "capote" to describe the coats. There were not then, and there are not now, capotes without hoods -- but there were then, and can be now, big wool blanket overcoats. Also, let me suggest that a capote, by definition is not necessarily a coat make from from a wool blanket. It's the subcultural habits and colloquial vocabulary of modern-day buckskinnerss that is creating a misconception that capotes are blanket coats. Capotes can be made from blankets, but don't have to be made from blankets. However, if they are a capote they do have to have a hood. The hood could be detachable, but when it's detached you don't have a capote. It's much like a stallion; by definition the stallion has testicles, and once they are detached you no longer have a stallion -- you have a gelding -- not a stallion with detachable testicles. To take this strain of thought a step further, mountain men weren't beaver trappers with detachable capotes. You don't by definition have to have a copote if you are a mountain man, but you do by definition have to have testicles. So if a modern mountain man is inclined to prefer a large overcoat with no hood, let him have the courage to defy the modern cultural norms of behavior and venture forth to rendezvous capoteless. Hope this really clears things up. Dave T. -----Original Message----- Cc: Mstar176@wf.net >Longtrail, > Nice link for reproduction fabrics. Patchworks, is going on my >favorite list. I was particularly intrested in the indigo material. > Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. >It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated >corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are >many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. The >one that comes to mind, is the oil painting of the "Trappers Bride". Two >of the trappers in the background are wearing "sacks". It seems to me, >that if you didn't have a hat, that one of these simple creations would be >a good substitute. Miller also shows hunters using them to approach game, >on all-fours, as camoflodge. In the AJM painting titled "Trappers and >horses around a fire" used as an illustration in Ruxtons "Life In The Far >West"(edited by Hafen) is a trapper wearing a "sack" made with a checked or >crossed, striped pattern. Since the bags were made out of anything that >was available (my opinion) then a piece if the woven Indigo from patchworks >might be a nice piece of material for a reproduction of that trappers "Sky >Piece". > I believe Paul Mueller said in a recent link, that hoods were not >attached to capotes, rather were buttoned or tied on. Am I wrong about the >"sacks" or were they hoods for Capotes? Miller's paintings have few, if >any capotes, but it was summertime. If anybody would like to shed light on >the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. > >John Richey >"Yellow Stone" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Traps Date: 11 Mar 1998 14:58:27 -0800 (PST) Hallo A while back Dave Parks was a talking about a company called Montgomery Fur Co., they sell traps, etc. Was a wondering Dave, have you used their #4 double long springs? Are they a decent trap? I've got a catalog of theirs coming in preparation for this next season, and was curious. At the shop I visited yesterday, Moscow Hide and Fur (URL on my page), they had several used Newhouses for sale in the 4-4 1/2 size....2 of them were listed for $17.50, three for $100+, and one for over $200. I believe the $99 and up ones have "crossed over" from usable to collectable. I'm thinking the more inexpensive Newhouses are a good buy? They also have 5 #4 Triumphs with good springs for $10 apiece, has anyone heard of this company? How close in size, shape and wieght are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relations to traps of the 1800's? Last question, you've said in previous posts to the list, that you use a piece of wood to set the traps on, have you ever used the U-stick method? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Yoder Subject: MtMan-List: Char Date: 12 Mar 1998 00:09:00 -0700 I've had really good success making char-cloth from 100% cotton turkish toweling. Same technique, but the texture allows it to really catch a spark and it burns good and long since the cloth is so thick... In a non-period situation, 000 or 0000 steel wool works even better than char and will also work as a distress or signal beacon. Hook a wad of it to a piece of cord, stand in a clear (minimize risk of wild-fire) area, spark it and swing it in a vertical circle. Makes a "ring-of-fire"effect that can be seen much further off than you'd think, and its pretty distinctive. -- Fred Yoder Grand Junction, Colorado mailto:fyoder@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu ICQ UIN: 2737053 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Parks Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver Traps Date: 12 Mar 1998 01:05:51 -0800 Howdy Lee, Glad you got to visit Moscow Hide & Fur, I hope you got to talk with Gary Schroeder the owner. He's a really knowledgeable guy. I've had the pleasure of meeting him at some of the fur sales. He writes the "Fur Markets" department for Fur, Fish & Game Magazine. As to your questions, I certainly think that #4 Newhouses in decent condition for $17.50 are a good buy. The #4 1/2 you mention at a much higher figure were what Newhouse called their "Wolf Trap". It came with six feet of heavy chain with a heavy swivel at the trap, another one halfway down the chain and a heavy two prong steel drag on the end of the chain. They tend to bring high dollars today, even for being a commonly used trap up until 30 years ago. I have one left in my collection. The Triumphs have not been made for many years and are a good quality trap. At $10.00 each, I suggest you don't pass them up. As I remember, Triumphs traps go back into the mid-twenties or early 1930's. The man to ask in detail about these and any antique trap is my old friend Bill Foreyt, Route 2 Box 56, Colfax, WA. (509) 397-3351, Bill is a great guy and has an extensive collection of traps. Just a few years ago, he told me that original fur trade era beaver traps were scarce in any condition and a rough one would bring $150.00 and up......if you could get one of the trap collectors to part with one. He's still looking for one for me. About 12 years ago I sold him one of the rarest traps in his collection.....but that's another story. As far as your question of "How close in size, shape and weight are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relation to traps of the 1800's?" A close look at trap "D", figure 26 on page 121 of Carl P. Russell's book "Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men" (fifth printing, University of New Mexico Press, 1983 Lib. of Congress Cat. Card # 77-81984) will show you just how close the Newhouse is to the originals. Even if you found an original beaver trap of the 1820's on the banks of Horse Creek in Wyoming.....it would be representive of that particular trap maker and not all of the beaver traps used during this period. Individual blacksmiths made traps that were of a design they had grown up with and knew or a design they had seen by another blacksmith and prefered to use. The common thread that pretty much keeps this period beaver size traps the same, is the use of the "jaw post" that held the trap jaws. The ends of the jaws were pinned and hinged on these posts. This design goes back to England and Europe. As for the weight of fur period traps, they varied from 2 to 5 lbs. The base of trap "C" on pg. 121 of Russell's book is very strange compared to others. It has a double base rarely seen in these type of traps. Stranger yet, it was found in 1903 at an Indians grave here on the Rogue River (near me) in S/W Oregon. It's weight is only 2 1/2 lbs, even with a double base! The piece of wood you mentioned, is a piece of 1/2"X10"X10" plywood that I carry to set coilspring traps with. The U-Stick you mention is, I assume the pair of sticks tied together at one end with leather strap and is used to "pinch" or depress the traps longsprings for ease of setting the big traps. I have never bothered with them, first of all, it would take two sets of them to set b