From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Tobacco Date: 31 May 1998 23:01:54 -0700 There is a plant whose common name is Tobacco brush and grows in the Sierra Nevada Mountains and I assume throughout the intermountain west. I resembles common Manzanita but the branches are not red and the leaves are oval as opposed to manzanita which has round leaves. You should be able to find a reference to it in a book called Shrubs of the Great Basin. I cannot recall the family name of the plant but it is in the same family as Manzanita. I have never smoked it and I doubt if it can be palatably smoked as anything but an extender to a diminishing supply of tobacco. It could be rolled in corn husks (Hojas) but I imagine it would mostly be smoked in a pipe. If you want a tobacco alternative a company called Native Spirit has a blend of Willow bark, Yerba Buena and other stuff which you might be able to pick up at a tobbaco store. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: more sign language Date: 01 Jun 1998 01:59:16 EDT As far as I know I am one of the few to learn Indian Sign Language (ISL) before learning American Sign Language (ASL). I learned ISL in the Scouting program and have been taking a class in ASL for a few years for business purposes. (I have occasional hearing-impared customers.) I have found only a few signs that are the same in both. These include love, winter, and the obvious ones such as I, you, they. Some signs are similar but have different meanings. For example the ISL for white man is made with the fore finger moving across the forehead (originally showing the white man's hat). This same sign in ASL means "black" (originally tracing the black eyebrow). Another interesting sign in ISL for "many times" or "often" is the forefinger touching the left arm and moving up. Almost the identical sign in ASL means "improving." With ASL facial expressions are an integral part of the language. ISL was less dependent on facial expressions. I agree that French sign language is closer to ASL than is British Sign Language (BSL). Finger spelling in ASL is done with one hand, in BSL you have to use both hands. Interesting enough I found that Irish Sign Language is different from British Sign Language. As for ISL differing between tribes, I think the differences were only minor. The whole purpose of ISL was to communicate when different tribes met and according to Tompkins' book it was almost universal from the Hudson Bay to the Gulf of Mexico. W.P Clark's book The Indian Sign Language was originally published about 1885 and is probably the most authentic. It has more words than Tompkins' book, including some "adult" words that Tompkins book does not include (the Boy Scouts found these in a hurry), but unfortunately does not include any illustrations. For this reason, Tompkins' book is preferable for first learning the language. Clark apparently also knew what he termed as "deaf- mute language" (this was before ASL) as he often compares the ISL word with the way the "deaf mutes" (I know the term is not used anymore) say the same word. I am still disappointed at how few Native Americans I have found that know ISL. As one Native American at a Powwow at Rapid City, South Dakota said to me, "I know this sign --- 'how' ---- I learned it from a John Wayne movie." Traditions such as costuming, Indian dance, etc. are kept up but Indian Sign has been neglected. Respectfully, Tom Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 01 Jun 1998 07:24:09 -0600 Gail, I smoke kinnikinnick somewhat regularly and really enjoy it. But I do not mix it with tobacco, which is one substance my body has never learned to tolerate. I like to gather my own here in the Shining Mtns in the spring when they start to come out of plant hibernation. I use the dried, crumbled leaves in a somewhat sparse proportion with other herbs. The red berries are nice also. I dry them and remove the seeds, as they are large compared to the berry part and can be a bit harsh. One of my favorite mixtures is with red willow bark, angelica root and mullein leaves in about equal proprotions with a smaller amount of kinnikinnick. I can't give exact amounts as I just make a pile of each and mix together until it looks about right. There was an article in the November/December 1995 issue of Backwoodsman Magazine called 'Native American Smoking Mixes' that discussed several other herbs, as well. As with all plants, etc gathered in the wild, be careful of poisons, allergens,etc. Try small amounts at first. Hope this helps. Red Coyote > ---------- > From: Gail Carbiener > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Saturday, May 30, 1998 21:21 > To: American Mountain Men > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... > > > >To all: > > This got lost in never never land. Has any one ever tried this > manzanita > >with tobacco mixture? > >Gail (learning to play a MM in living history) > >============== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: MtMan-List: lodges Date: 01 Jun 1998 14:30:55 -0400 I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 01 Jun 1998 18:52:13 -0500 Thanks for the input on your group. Like I said before, there are those who can use one at a greater distance than I ever could. ( we all have our limitations) I happen to like the blowguns like the Cherokee use. I have a shorter one that I purchased at Qualla Boundry in North Carolina. Use hardwood darts with thistle down for the fluff. They are great on rabbits and birds. Yes, if I am hungry I will eat most any bird I can hit! In the middle ages they ate hawks and other non-game birds. NO, I don't shoot hawks. But sparrows, doves, quail, and such are not hard to hit at a watering hole. Maybe some of the folks on the list would like to do a 3 or 7 day run sometime and learn how to use these kind of tools and techniques. Contact me off line if you might be interested. NO modern tools will be allowed however! For comfort, you can have a canteen, blanket, and a small bag with medications, tooth brush, etc. NO you won't need a razor, because where I will take you, you won't be seeing any women! YellowFeather ---------- > From: ITWHEELER@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows > Date: Sunday, May 31, 1998 11:07 AM > > In a message dated 98-05-30 10:23:35 EDT, you write: > > << llsi@texas.net (Glenn Darilek) >> > not an amaseing feet with practace you can stand on your hands if you have > ever shot a gun or bow 25yds is not so bad your right about being acurate. i > yas once good with my sling shot not as good as my fiend who could smash a > marble with another at not 25yds butt far as in more than 15 paces. as for > force the extention fo a lever your arm and another the atlatl you had more > force it must have been like landing on the moon when you could take game down > with less trama to you and the game let alone the time it took and the more > you could gather. it was ysed on the ice cap in our time. or may i say your > dads time. they were pritty acurate. i belong to a club that makes our own > alute skin boats and part of our lor is to use the atlatl. some of these guys > are pretty good . as good to kill game at 25yds +we are not talking more > than 50. and there was more game then less spooky. > > iron > toung ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re Men of the Cloth Date: 01 Jun 1998 19:26:06 -0600 It took a long time for formal religion to reach the Canadian Rockies. The first priest or minister in the Canadian Rockes was, I believe, Rev. Robert Terrill Rundle, a Methodist who conducted a service at Rocky Mountain House in the mid-1840's. A prominent mountain near Banff is named after him. He and his Catholic counterpart, Father Lacombe, operated out of Edmonton House. Lacombe arrived a few years after Rundle, but spent the rest of his life at his mission; Rundle returned to England in 1848. Catholic priests travelled as far west as Fort Dauphin, Manitoba before 1800, and accompanied voyageurs west of the Great Lakes quite intermittently thereafter. It took decades, however, for them to get further than Manitoba. Father Pierre Antoine Tabeau travelled to Rainy Lake & back in the summer of 1816. In 1818, Father (later Bishop) Joseph Norbert Provencher and Father Severe Dumoulin arrived at Red River (Winnipeg). Father Dumoulin travelled to Norway House, where he conducted a service on Aug 6, 1820. By 1823-1824, there were both Catholic and Anglican priests living at Red River. Some of the Protestants had a devastating impact on fur trade families; they refused to acknowledge marriages which had been established before their arrival.The Catholics were more pragmatic, and happily formalized existing unions. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Palouse River Regional Rendezvous (NE Washington) Date: 01 Jun 1998 18:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Palouse River Regional Rendezvous When: June 26-28 Where: Washington, North of Colfax (map on registration form) Details: All sorts of shoots and things to keep ya busy! Come join us for a weekend of of muzzleloading and oldtime fun! For More Info contact Whitey Eagen (509)397-9123, Carl Schluneger (509)-397-4956, or Tony Roberts (509) 397-4447 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Plant Lore Class in N. Idaho Date: 01 Jun 1998 19:11:02 -0700 (PDT) The Univ. of Idaho presents a field course in ethnobotany, the study of plant lore, on June 7 at the Clark Fork Field Campus. The course offers a hands-on exploration of the folklore of native plants and their traditional uses as medicine, food and fiber. The course will be taught by Steve Brunsfeld, associate professor in the Dept of Forest Resources, and by independent consultant Richard Old. Check in is from 8:30 to 9 a.m., followed immediately by an hour-long introduction. The field excursion by car caravan begins at 10 a.m. and includes identification of plants in a variety of habitats and discussion of their uses. Registration is $19. Overnight lodgin at the field campus is $10.70 per night, per person (there is also a very nice Natl Forest campground just down the road, at the site of the Northwest Company's Kullyspell House for about $5 a campsite/night). Participants are asked to bring sturdy walking shoes, a sack lunch, beverages and a hand lens. No Pets. For Registration and reservations, write to Edie Kinucan, Clark Fork Field Campus, Box 87, Clark Fork, Idaho, 83811, or call 'em at 208-266-1452. Newbill's note... these are super classes for the serious buckskinner if you're in the area. I'll be missing this one cause I'm working on a Rendezvous preparation. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: lodges Date: 01 Jun 1998 21:37:03 EDT This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_896751424_boundary Content-ID: <0_896751424@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII canvas that is white would fit the era better. i do not think a green one would go over to good . a small wedge tent would be better. traphand --part0_896751424_boundary Content-ID: <0_896751424@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay25.mx.aol.com (relay25.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.25]) by air09.mail.aol.com (v43.20) with SMTP; Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:25:25 -0400 Received: from lists.xmission.com (lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7]) by relay25.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id PAA27961; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0ygaAU-0003Hn-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:50 -0600 Received: from (xmission.xmission.com) [198.60.22.2] (drudy) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0ygaAO-0003HY-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:48 -0600 Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id NAA23518 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from (mail.xmission.com) [198.60.22.22] by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0ygZLi-00071b-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:30:22 -0600 Received: from (aydin.com) [12.3.210.10] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ygZLf-0001kK-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:30:19 -0600 Received: from acush02.aydin.com ([10.50.10.12]) by gateway.aydin.com with ESMTP id <26888>; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:35:01 -0400 Received: by exchange.aydin.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:25:03 -0400 Message-ID: Cc: history mailing list X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think? --part0_896751424_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges Date: 01 Jun 1998 05:50:19 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8D21.29119FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your green wall tent will go real good next to someone's camper trailer in the tin Tipi camp. I am sure that they must have the same kind of doin's where your from like is held in Washington. Go camp in the non primitive area for a while and get a feel to see if you like it first then pour the money into it. Buckskinning is a form of the pit. You might not like the drunks and etc. But if you like to drink and party I am sure its like all over get down and dirty. Pick a rondy and find if they have a non primitive area to camp and go. For God sakes and try it first, before you spend a lot of money. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Mill, Kirk : To: ML MAILING LIST : Cc: history mailing list : Subject: MtMan-List: lodges : Date: Monday, June 01, 1998 11:30 AM : : I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in : buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to : appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would : be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that : I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think? ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8D21.29119FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Your green wall tent will go real good = next to someone's camper trailer in the tin Tipi camp.  I am sure = that they must have the same kind of doin's where your from like is held = in Washington.  Go camp in the non primitive area for a while and = get a feel to see if you like it first then pour the money into it. =  Buckskinning is a form of the pit.  You might not like the = drunks and etc.  But if you like to drink and party I am sure its = like all over get down and dirty.  Pick a rondy and find if they = have a non primitive area to camp and go.  For God sakes and try it = first, before you spend a lot of money.  Later Jon T =  

----------
: From: Mill, Kirk <millk@aydin.com>
: To: ML MAILING LIST <mlml@vnet.net>
: = Cc: history mailing list <hist_text@xmission.com>
: Subject: MtMan-List: lodges
: Date: = Monday, June 01, 1998 11:30 AM
:
: I have a question for you = folks. I am trying to get started in
: buckskinning and am assembling = my outfit. My question is in regard to
: appropriate lodges. I have = an old canvas wall tent that I believe would
: be period correct = except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that
: I have seen = shows white lodges only. What do you think?

------=_NextPart_000_01BD8D21.29119FE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 02 Jun 1998 10:20:52 EDT In a message dated 98-05-23 14:44:31 EDT, you write: << I don't know if an immunity can be built up, but it affects me only mildly today. >> I never got it until I was in my late 30's, used to pick it and chase my sister and all that. Now I am extremely careful around it as I get it easily now. I talked to a dermatologist (sp) and was told that the medical folks claim that the more often you come in contact with ivy or poison oak the more likely you are to break out and that everytime you break out you body develops more histamines (sp) faster to react to it so you break out worse and faster each time from then on. Last summer my wife and kids all got severe cases requiring shots and pills. My wife got it on her upper thighs when she went to the hooter as the hem of her skirt had dragged in it and when she lifted her skirt to go to the bathroom it passed the oil to her legs. There are several commercial "blocks" that you can apply prior to contact that really do work. Even Avon dealers now carry them. You put them on like a sun screen accept they prevent the oils from the ivy from bonding to your skin so you have time to wash it off. When you wash, either with good old fels napta or one of the new ivy cleansers wash with COLD water not hot. Hot water opens the pores and the reaction is worse. One thing you can also use is Jewel Weed to clean up in a pinch. Jewel Weed likes the same growing conditions as Ivy and is often found near by. It has a stem and leaf structure that is really juicy that when crushed acts like a soap and does clean off the ivy before it bonds to the skin. The best way to avoid it is to learn to spot it before you are in it. Out here in the northeast it can be short ground cover or like the vine we saw at Ft Frederic that was about 6" in diameter and went at least 40' up and around a tree. Just got back from a 10 day event (The Original North Eastern) in North Eastern Conn., and every transistion area from trail to woods, river to woods or field to woods was full of beautiful lush ivy so if you come to the NE and plan to walk into the woods be careful (we were) or you will itch a lot. By the way the Original North Eastern was once again wonderful, far more activities than you could possible do, good weather and wonderful friends both new and old. 750+ registered adults (16 years or older) and 10 days to get to meet them all. It will be in Conn. again next year on the west bank of the lake formed by the Thompson Lake Dam, hope to see you there over Memorial Day week next year. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges Date: 02 Jun 1998 08:31:01 -0700 Kirk; You got some good answers to your question and you should concider taking that advise but I will offer another idea. You didn't say what you would use your shelter for and if it is just for you, you might do what I just did for my newest lonsome shelter. I went to Eagle Hardware and bought one of their 9' by 12' painters drop cloths for $20 and ran it through the wash to shrink and tighten it up. I then water proofed it with a comercial waterproofing agent and installed gromets in the corners and along the edge. It will make a fine shelter and can be set up in a couple of ways depending on the conditions. Niceset thing about it is that it is a nice light natural tan color like linen which it may be since it was made in India. I think there are bigger drop cloths available that could be turned into somewhat bigger shelters if needed and a couple of these dropcloths could be turned into a nice wedge tent with very little cuting and sewing. I too started out years ago with an old army wall tent in OD green. It had to be set up in the tin-teepee camp that first year but it gave me some time to decide if I really wanted to make the investment in a lodge or era correct tent. I did and the next year I had a lodge. I hope this was helpfull. YMOS Capt. Lahti Mill, Kirk wrote: > I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in > buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to > appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would > be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that > I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges Date: 02 Jun 1998 12:12:35 -0600 (CST) > . . . I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would >be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that >I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think? Kirk, One solution, if the tent is not too big, is you can soak it in a mixture of chlorine bleech and water in a LARGE vat of some kind to fade the green. I did it with a green duffel bag and it came out kind of a sandy tan. It would take something the size of a large steel livestock water trough to soak it. Second solution is to sell the tent and apply the proceeds (however little) toward an affordable period tent. Keep the poles if you can, because you'll just have to buy more. Poles are usually sold sepatately from tents. The best prices I've seen on tents are from Panther Primitives (they also offer poles, btw, but your local lumber yard could have a better deal). I hope this helps, and it might be a better answer for you than camping among the alcoas. Sorry, but you really can't get a full rondy experience by camping among motor homes. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth Date: 02 Jun 1998 12:40:16 -0600 I mentioned that Protestant and Catholic missionaries were strikingly different in their attitudes. Here is what Sylvia Van Kirk has to say about another man of the cloth, whom I missed in my original message: "[Fort Vancouver's] first clergyman, the Reverend Herbert Beaver, was totally unsympathetic to the fur-trade custom [of marriage according to Native tradition], in spite of his appropriate name. Arriving in the fall of 1836 with his English wife, Jane, he denounced Fort Vancouver as a 'deplorable scene of vice and ignorance'. He refused to give any credence to 'the custom of the country', styling the traders' wives as concubines and chastising the men for indulging in fornication. This...understandably outraged fiery tempered Chief Factor John McLoughlin... To Beaver, good Mrs. McLoughlin was only a 'kept Mistress' who could not be allowed to associate with properly married females such as his own wife." (p154-155) In 1838, after Beaver left Ft. Vancouver, two Catholic priests, Francois N. Banchet and Modeste Demers arrived, via Fort Edmonton. Their attitude toward 'country marriages' was markedly different; their marriage ceremonies were intended to 'renew & ratify' these existing marriages, and for the couple to formally recognize the legitimacy of their children. For more information on the early Canadian men of the cloth, and the fur trade, I strongly recommend : Van Kirk, Sylvia. _Many Tender Ties : Women in Fur-Trade Society, 1670-1870_. Watson & Dwyer : Winnipeg, 1980. ISBN 0-920486-06-1 Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 02 Jun 1998 13:18:05 -0700 Louis: Do you crush the mixture to a fine small parts.. You probably dry the berries in the sun. Sounds like the mixture might smoke pretty hot. Can you describe the taste. I will need to look up the other two items, angelica root and mullein. Thanks for the info. Gail Living History MtMan ================= >I smoke kinnikinnick somewhat regularly and really enjoy it. But I do not >mix it with tobacco, which is one substance my body has never learned to >tolerate. I like to gather my own here in the Shining Mtns in the spring >when they start to come out of plant hibernation. I use the dried, crumbled >leaves in a somewhat sparse proportion with other herbs. The red berries are >nice also. I dry them and remove the seeds, as they are large compared to >the berry part and can be a bit harsh. One of my favorite mixtures is with >red willow bark, angelica root and mullein leaves in about equal proprotions >with a smaller amount of kinnikinnick. > > >Red Coyote > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Plant Lore Class in N. Idaho Date: 02 Jun 1998 13:07:45 -0700 Lee: This sounds great, do you suppose they might touch on the manazinta tobacco plant? Although I am not a smoker, it is peaked my curiosity on what it would taste like. (I used to be a smoker, didn't everyone) I will be walking the Oregon Trail on the Boardman Bombing Range outside of Hermiston. Also will be walking out of the Blue Mountains down the way Marcus Whitman traveled. A group of us are preparing for the Oregon/California Trails Association convention to be held in Pendleton, OR the second week of August. Appreciate the information, and hope if other classes such as this come to your attention you will post. Gail Living History MtMan -----Original Message----- >The Univ. of Idaho presents a field course in ethnobotany, the study of >plant lore, on June 7 at the Clark Fork Field Campus. > >The course offers a hands-on exploration of the folklore of native plants >and their traditional uses as medicine, food and fiber. The course will >be taught by Steve Brunsfeld, associate professor in the Dept of Forest >Resources, and by independent consultant Richard Old. > >Check in is from 8:30 to 9 a.m., followed immediately by an hour-long >introduction. The field excursion by car caravan begins at 10 a.m. and >includes identification of plants in a variety of habitats and discussion >of their uses. > >Registration is $19. Overnight lodgin at the field campus is $10.70 per >night, per person (there is also a very nice Natl Forest campground just >down the road, at the site of the Northwest Company's Kullyspell House for >about $5 a campsite/night). Participants are asked to bring sturdy >walking shoes, a sack lunch, beverages and a hand lens. No Pets. > >For Registration and reservations, write to Edie Kinucan, Clark Fork Field >Campus, Box 87, Clark Fork, Idaho, 83811, or call 'em at 208-266-1452. > >Newbill's note... these are super classes for the serious buckskinner if >you're in the area. I'll be missing this one cause I'm working on a >Rendezvous preparation. > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage >http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: MtMan-List: alum Date: 02 Jun 1998 16:19:05 -0400 Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good source for = Alum? I used to be able to get it in 1 pound containers at the drug store, = but now they only sell it in 4 ounce size ( at 2.00 per 4 oz.). For the batch of hides that I've got going now, I've had to go to 4 different stores just to buy 1 =BD pounds. Any ideas?=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth Date: 02 Jun 1998 16:32:45 -0500 I found this rather interesting, as the tradition of ignorance continues today. The state and the church still do not recognize traditional Indian marriage. At least this has been my wife's and my experience. My Pam and I were married by a Cherokee medicine woman in 1972 if my memory is correct. No license, no nothing except for a mutual love and attraction. The ceremony was quite beautiful and we both remember it in detail all these years since. Had I the misfortune to meet Rev. Herbert Beaver and he were to call my Pam a concubine, I would in all probability have shot him between the lights! We had a church ceremony 10 years later so that "uncle" would have his piece of paper and the US Army would "accept" our marriage. Now, 26 years later, I understand even more how the fur traders and mountain men must have felt. Any society that has to depend on paper instead of a mans word is worth getting away from! YMOS, Ken YellowFeather and his devoted wife Pamela "Calamity" Jane Wheeler ---------- > From: Angela Gottfred > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth > Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 1:40 PM > > I mentioned that Protestant and Catholic missionaries were strikingly > different in their attitudes. Here is what Sylvia Van Kirk has to say about > another man of the cloth, whom I missed in my original message: > > "[Fort Vancouver's] first clergyman, the Reverend Herbert Beaver, was > totally unsympathetic to the fur-trade custom [of marriage according to > Native tradition], in spite of his appropriate name. Arriving in the fall of > 1836 with his English wife, Jane, he denounced Fort Vancouver as a > 'deplorable scene of vice and ignorance'. He refused to give any credence to > 'the custom of the country', styling the traders' wives as concubines and > chastising the men for indulging in fornication. This...understandably > outraged fiery tempered Chief Factor John McLoughlin... To Beaver, good Mrs. > McLoughlin was only a 'kept Mistress' who could not be allowed to associate > with properly married females such as his own wife." (p154-155) > > In 1838, after Beaver left Ft. Vancouver, two Catholic priests, Francois N. > Banchet and Modeste Demers arrived, via Fort Edmonton. Their attitude toward > 'country marriages' was markedly different; their marriage ceremonies were > intended to 'renew & ratify' these existing marriages, and for the couple to > formally recognize the legitimacy of their children. > > For more information on the early Canadian men of the cloth, and the fur > trade, I strongly recommend : > Van Kirk, Sylvia. _Many Tender Ties : Women in Fur-Trade Society, > 1670-1870_. Watson & Dwyer : Winnipeg, 1980. ISBN 0-920486-06-1 > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum Date: 02 Jun 1998 16:39:59 -0500 Ask the pharmacist to order you a larger quantity or you might check in t= he canning section of your local grocery store. You might also check with yo= ur local farm store. ( Southern States Co-op ) Check to see if you have an American Scientific store nearby or a similar store, as they sell chemica= ls in bulk. Hope this helps. YellowFeather ---------- Cc: history mailing list Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good source for Alum? I used to be able to get it in 1 pound containers at the drug store, but now they only sell it in 4 ounce size ( at 2.00 per 4 oz.). For the batch of hides that I've got going now, I've had to go to 4 different stores just to buy 1 =BD pounds. Any ideas?=20 ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:03:45 -0500 Mullen leaves are fantastic! Not only do they make great toilet paper substitute but when properly dried they smoke as smooth as silk. At one time they were used for people with TB to smoke. The smoke coats the bronchial passages and deaden the sensitivity of the lungs. It helped to reduce the coughing spasms. I have added it to my pipe tobacco for years. YMOS, YellowFeather ---------- > From: Gail Carbiener > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... > Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 3:18 PM > > Louis: > Do you crush the mixture to a fine small parts.. You probably dry the > berries in the sun. Sounds like the mixture might smoke pretty hot. Can you > describe the taste. I will need to look up the other two items, angelica > root and mullein. Thanks for the info. > Gail > Living History MtMan > ================= > > >I smoke kinnikinnick somewhat regularly and really enjoy it. But I do not > >mix it with tobacco, which is one substance my body has never learned to > >tolerate. I like to gather my own here in the Shining Mtns in the spring > >when they start to come out of plant hibernation. I use the dried, crumbled > >leaves in a somewhat sparse proportion with other herbs. The red berries > are > >nice also. I dry them and remove the seeds, as they are large compared to > >the berry part and can be a bit harsh. One of my favorite mixtures is with > >red willow bark, angelica root and mullein leaves in about equal > proprotions > >with a smaller amount of kinnikinnick. > > > > > >Red Coyote > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum Date: 02 Jun 1998 18:32:19 EDT Kirk Mill asked: "Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good source for Alum?...." I have bought it at Tandy. They sell it for tanning. I've also seen it in taxidermy supply catalogs. Ghosting Wolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: MtMan-List: Tanning Date: 02 Jun 1998 16:34:11 -0600 In Laubins Tipi book, they state that a modern substitute for brains, used in tanning hides, is Lard mixed with flour, the flour is used to float the lard. Has anyone tried this? Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides? While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good enough substitute, without the mess. Thanks in advance! Ron Ron's Idaho Pages Email \|/ / \ / \ / 0 \ Lonewolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bamafan@Traveller.COM (PHIL PETERSEN) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum Date: 02 Jun 1998 22:59:38 GMT You may be sorry. That alum tan is prett rough. Contact Longtrail for the "easy" way to do your tanning. Phil>Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good source for= Alum? >I used to be able to get it in 1 pound containers at the drug store, but >now they only sell it in 4 ounce size ( at 2.00 per 4 oz.). For the >batch of hides that I've got going now, I've had to go to 4 different >stores just to buy 1 =BD pounds. Any ideas?=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: lodges.. Date: 02 Jun 1998 15:11:10 +0000 I agree about going and see one first, but don't worry too much about partying drunks. There are always some there and I have been one once in a while. Usually they don't bother anyone and, there aren't as many as there used to be and they don't last as long. Old age? Look at all kinds of setups, trader's wares and go ahead and ask questions. 99.9% of the people there are friendly and love to answer questions. Do some checking and questions first and you will save a lot of money and frustrations. Get Muzzloader Magazine and maybe some books like the Bokks of Buxkskinning 1 thru 7 for lots of ideas. Probably a good guess you will make some friends the first do you go to, so you can get some help from them. Go look but be forewarned: you will probably get hooked. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS Traphand wrote: >canvas that is white would fit the era better. i do not think a green one >would go over to good . a small wedge tent would be better. > traphand > >Return-Path: >Received: from relay25.mx.aol.com (relay25.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.25]) by > air09.mail.aol.com (v43.20) with SMTP; Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:25:25 > -0400 >Received: from lists.xmission.com (lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7]) > by relay25.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) > with SMTP id PAA27961; > Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:25:00 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0ygaAU-0003Hn-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:50 -0600 >Received: from (xmission.xmission.com) [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0ygaAO-0003HY-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:48 -0600 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id > NAA23518 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:43 > -0600 (MDT) >Received: from (mail.xmission.com) [198.60.22.22] > by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0ygZLi-00071b-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:30:22 -0600 >Received: from (aydin.com) [12.3.210.10] > by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #2) > id 0ygZLf-0001kK-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:30:19 -0600 >Received: from acush02.aydin.com ([10.50.10.12]) by gateway.aydin.com with > ESMTP id <26888>; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:35:01 -0400 >Received: by exchange.aydin.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) > id ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:25:03 -0400 >Message-ID: >From: "Mill, Kirk" >To: ML MAILING LIST >Cc: history mailing list >Subject: MtMan-List: lodges >Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:30:55 -0400 >X-Priority: 3 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > >I have a question for you folks. I am trying to get started in >buckskinning and am assembling my outfit. My question is in regard to >appropriate lodges. I have an old canvas wall tent that I believe would >be period correct except that it is green. Every rendezvous picture that >I have seen shows white lodges only. What do you think? > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id AD6E46C0140; Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:19:58 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0ygiQp-00061L-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:12:15 -0600 >Received: from (xmission.xmission.com) [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0ygiQm-00060i-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:12:12 -0600 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id >WAA03063 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:12:11 -0600 (MDT) >Received: from (imo12.mx.aol.com) [198.81.17.34] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0ygg1y-0006AZ-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:38:26 -0600 >Received: from Traphand@aol.com > by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id OCKQa08707 > for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:37:03 +2000 (EDT) >From: >Message-ID: <447b4770.35735741@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:37:03 EDT >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: lodges >Content-type: multipart/mixed; > boundary="part0_896751424_boundary" >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 891663648 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Wild Medicinal Plants Class (N. Idaho) Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:20:04 -0700 (PDT) On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Gail Carbiener wrote: > This sounds great, do you suppose they might touch on the manazinta > tobacco plant? Although I am not a smoker, it is peaked my curiosity on what > it would taste like. (I used to be a smoker, didn't everyone) Wow, what a great lead in for the second class in June. I don't know precisely if the instructors will cover manazinta, but you can bet they will if it's brought up by interested students :) Anyway, on June 27-28, a class on the "Wild Medicinal Plants of North Idaho" will be hosted by the Univ of Idaho's Clark Fork Field Campus. The class is a one day affair, with a class on Sat, and one on Sun. Class will Instruct participants on identification and use of medicinal plants in the region. The workshop will be presented by Barbara St. Dennis, a practicing medicanl herbalist who emphasizes safe herbalism. Registration is $19. Overnight lodging at the field campus is $10.70 per night, per person (nearby Natl Forest campground costs just $5.00/night). Participants are asked to bring sturdy walking shoes, a sack lunch, beverages and a hand lens. No Pets. For Registration and reservations, write to Edie Kinucan, Clark Fork Field Campus, Box 87, Clark Fork, Idaho, 83811, or call 'em at 208-266-1452. Again, these are super classes for the serious skinner, and agian, I'll miss it cause I'll be gone ta Rendezvous. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Canoes? Date: 02 Jun 1998 21:04:30 -0500 Hello the Camp, While perusing my latest =93Maine Antique Digest=94 I came across the fol= lowing request for help. I thought it might make an interesting topic for the list, and we might be able to help. Begin article transcription:_________________ =93LEWIS & CLARK CANOES In the journals of September 27 to October 7, 1805, five canoes were hewn from pine trees. Do any drawings or other details exist for these crafts= ? The Gorge Discovery Center & Wasco County Historical Museum is looking fo= r details in the hopes that we might replicate one or more of the vessels. Any help would be appreciated. Also anyone wishing knowledge of the trai= l in this area (The Dalles, Oregon), especially Rock Fort, please ask. .=94 End article transcription:_______________________ I don=92t have any direct information; but, I=92m betting if anyone does someone on this list can probably help them out. Or perhaps know of another list that can. Best I can figure it would be pretty much a standard dugout canoe like ma= ny existing examples in museums. Off hand I remember one good old one in Indianapolis at the State Museum downtown, at least it was there in=9279. I am Cc:ing them a copy of this posting and would suggest those with inp= ut do the same so they can follow the discussion. (Just hit the =93Reply to All=94 button on this original message when you reply, and it should happ= en automatically). So who knows? John =20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.=20 john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum Date: 02 Jun 1998 21:28:47 -0500 At 04:19 PM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >Okay, here's another question. Does anybody know a good source for Alum? >I used to be able to get it in 1 pound containers at the drug store, but >now they only sell it in 4 ounce size ( at 2.00 per 4 oz.). For the >batch of hides that I've got going now, I've had to go to 4 different >stores just to buy 1 =BD pounds. Any ideas?=20 >=20 Try calling the commercial chemical and industrial supply houses in any= major city yellow pages. Most will have a minimum purchase requirement. Many= will be as low as 5lbs cash & carry. John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<=A0 -=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< http://www.kramerize.com/ mail to: john=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges Date: 02 Jun 1998 21:33:52 -0500 At 08:31 AM 6/2/98 -0700, Capt. Lahti wrote: >Kirk; > >I went to Eagle Hardware and bought one of their 9' by 12' painters drop >cloths for $20 and ran it through the wash to shrink and tighten it up. I >then water proofed it with a comercial waterproofing agent and installed >gromets in the corners and along the edge. I would suggest just tying small marble size stones in the corners where you need ties. Metal grommets are a little late for the period. Unless brass or iron rings are sewn in with a button hole stitch. Sewing on lengths of cotton webbing is another good alternative. I've found the stones work well, are cheap, fast and easy to re-rig. See the list archive for extensive discussions on waterproofing cloth. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lodges Date: 03 Jun 1998 00:37:43 EDT In a message dated 98-06-03 00:10:33 EDT, you write: << I would suggest just tying small marble size stones in the corners where you need ties. Metal grommets are a little late for the period. Unless brass or iron rings are sewn in with a button hole stitch. Sewing on lengths of cotton webbing is another good alternative. I've found the stones work well, are cheap, fast and easy to re-rig. See the list archive for extensive discussions on waterproofing cloth. John... >> .62 or better round balls worked fine for me....also picked up some large glass marbles. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Tornados and other bad weather Date: 03 Jun 1998 08:22:31 -0500 Hello the list, Just putting out a note to make sure that everyone on the list from western Maryland and northeast, West Virginia and Pennsylvania made it thru the tornados and bad storms of the past couple of days. Speak up so we know you are still out there. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning Date: 02 Jun 1998 17:34:41 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8E4C.B9296B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron: I have used a method called soap tan use Phelps papha soap Spelling is wrong. It is easy to do and you are not rushed to finish the deer hide. The process calls for rubbing in lard it never said anything about flour but it smoked up good and came out real soft and white. I done this on a mountain with out any electric or anything. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Ron : To: hist_text@xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Tanning : Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 3:34 PM : : In Laubins Tipi book, they state that a modern substitute for brains, used : in tanning hides, is Lard mixed with flour, the flour is used to float the : lard. : : Has anyone tried this? : Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides? : While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good : enough substitute, without the mess. : : Thanks in advance! : Ron : : : Ron's Idaho Pages : : Email : : \|/ : / \ : / \ : / 0 \ Lonewolf ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8E4C.B9296B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ron:  I have used a method called = soap tan use Phelps papha soap Spelling is wrong.  It is easy to do = and you are not rushed to finish the deer hide.  The process calls = for rubbing in lard it never said anything about flour but it smoked up = good and came out real soft and white.  I done this on a mountain = with out any electric or anything.  Later Jon T =

----------
: From: Ron <cstmzd@ida.net>
: = color=3D"#000000">
: Subject: MtMan-List: Tanning
: Date: Tuesday, = June 02, 1998 3:34 PM
:
: In Laubins Tipi book, they state that a = modern substitute for brains, used
: in tanning hides, is Lard mixed = with flour, the flour is used to float the
: lard.
:
: Has = anyone tried this?  
: Does the finished hide resemble brain = tanned hides?
: While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was = wondering if it was a good
: enough substitute, without the = mess.
:
: Thanks in advance!
: Ron
:
:
: Ron's = Idaho Pages
: <http://www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/>
: Email <cstmzd@ida.net>
: =
:      \|/
: =      / \
:    / =     \
:  /    0   \ = Lonewolf

------=_NextPart_000_01BD8E4C.B9296B40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum Date: 03 Jun 1998 09:25:00 EDT For anyone interested in Alum Tanning, I would suggest contacting Kent Klein who wrote a booklet entitled "Tan Your Hide the Alum Way." I have seen many of Kents hides and they are superb and almost indistigushable from brain tanned. My friend purchsed a 50 lb bag of alum at a chemical supply store. Kent can be contacted at KleinKC@juno.com Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 03 Jun 1998 07:30:01 -0600 Gail, Here in Denver, CO we have a store called Alfalfa's that carries a LOT of natural herbs. Most of what I use comes from there and is already fairly finely ground/crushed. This especially applies to the angelica, mullein and sumac berries (which I didn't mention before, sorry). I couldn't tell angelica in the forest from hemlock - a real BAD thing (not that they are similar, but you get my drift). It is just SAFER that way. I do gather my own red willow bark from my favorite elk hunting beaver pond area and kinnickinnick from anywhere west of here that I happen to be hiking. These are EASY to identify and I feel OK using them. But, yes, all the ingredients are fine, small parts. The kinnickinnick berries are already pretty dry naturally, they're not like cherries or anything. I usually just hang a whole bunch of leaves and berries as they were gathered in my basement room for a while until all are dry. Then break up the leaves with my fingers while separating the berries. Like I said before, I try to remove the seeds from the berries as much as possible, they are large compared with the berry material and don't taste especially good. I guess you could say it smokes rather hot, but in a clay pipe tobacco gets pretty warm too. I use a clay pipe that was excavated from a pipe manufacturing business in central Ohio. The pipe was from a trash area that was dated to be in use before 1840, how lucky! I do not recall any references to mountain men rolling their own cigarettes out of kinnickinnick, etc. , but the references to clay pipes (and even white men owning and using pipestone pipes) are numerous. As for the taste, it's hard to describe, but is very nice. Once you smell the odor of red willow bark wafting through the camp, you'll never forget it. It's sort of like the stuff left over from the manufacture of ropes, that we're not supposed to smoke - very distinctive. It is not harsh at all and can be inhaled without irritation. I do not consider myself a smoker & do not smoke this stuff a lot, but when I want the taste & odor of my last camp out, I break out the old pipe. Hope this helps some. YMHOS, Red Coyote > ---------- > From: Gail Carbiener > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 1998 14:18 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... > > Louis: > Do you crush the mixture to a fine small parts.. You probably dry the > berries in the sun. Sounds like the mixture might smoke pretty hot. Can > you > describe the taste. I will need to look up the other two items, angelica > root and mullein. Thanks for the info. > Gail > Living History MtMan > ================= > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Monte Holder Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 03 Jun 1998 09:19:29 -0500 Sickler, Louis L wrote: > I do gather my own red willow bark from > my favorite elk hunting beaver pond area and kinnickinnick from anywhere > west of here that I happen to be hiking. These are EASY to identify and I > feel OK using them. > Is there another name for kinnickinnick that I missed somewhere along the way? And what is its growing range? I would assume if there are berries, there would be seeds. Wonder if a guy could grow some here in Missouri? Monte Holder Saline CO MO BTW, I grow some tobacco here in central Missouri from time to time and smoke it occasionally in a pipe, but it really works great for keeping hornworms off my tomatos and they are easier to see on those great big leaves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (john c funk,jr) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 03 Jun 1998 07:10:59 -0700 Ken, You mentioned in your "tobacco" note that "when dried properly".......mullen smokes "smooth as silk". What constitutes "dried properly"? I have tried dried mullen and found it quite harsh!!!!! John Funk _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Canoes? Date: 03 Jun 1998 08:16:18 -0700 John; I passed this on to a friend of mine in Western Idaho, Vern Illi. He and = his group made several dug-out canoes from yellow pine last summer to float d= own the Clearwater R. on the first few water miles of the L and C trip to the Pacific. They stopped at Lewiston ID. Vern may be able to give you some i= nfo on design and material. Vern is at ' vern_illi@wsu.edu'. Your comments on tarps and grommets is well taken. I was in a bigger hurr= y than good sense should allow. Alas, it's like so many things we see on this li= st that are expedients verses doing it right. We cut corners all too often. YMOS Capt. Lahti John Kramer wrote: > Hello the Camp, > > While perusing my latest =93Maine Antique Digest=94 I came across the f= ollowing > request for help. I thought it might make an interesting topic for the > list, and we might be able to help. > > Begin article transcription:_________________ > > =93LEWIS & CLARK CANOES > In the journals of September 27 to October 7, 1805, five canoes were he= wn > from pine trees. Do any drawings or other details exist for these craf= ts? > The Gorge Discovery Center & Wasco County Historical Museum is looking = for > details in the hopes that we might replicate one or more of the vessels. > Any help would be appreciated. Also anyone wishing knowledge of the tr= ail > in this area (The Dalles, Oregon), especially Rock Fort, please ask. > .=94 > > End article transcription:_______________________ > > I don=92t have any direct information; but, I=92m betting if anyone doe= s > someone on this list can probably help them out. Or perhaps know of > another list that can. > > Best I can figure it would be pretty much a standard dugout canoe like = many > existing examples in museums. Off hand I remember one good old one in > Indianapolis at the State Museum downtown, at least it was there in=927= 9. > > I am Cc:ing them a copy of this posting and would suggest those with i= nput > do the same so they can follow the discussion. (Just hit the =93Reply = to > All=94 button on this original message when you reply, and it should ha= ppen > automatically). > > So who knows? > > John > > > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. > john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Kierst Subject: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 03 Jun 1998 08:58:20 -0700 Anybody, My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and live the life. He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting. I'm looking for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks. K.Kierst ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wefarmasmidgen" Subject: MtMan-List: Alum sources Date: 03 Jun 1998 15:15:44 -0500 Try a dying (as in dying of fibers/fabrics) site. I don't have the source I ordered it from (on the old computer and haven't had use for it to make a favorite on the new), but you can order it in larger amounts. You might try searcing for "natural dyes" on one of the search engines and following links from there. If that doesn't work, try "spinning" "dying" "fibers" or something of that sort. If you still have no luck, email me privately, and I will make a concerted effort to find the source. Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin wefarm@pcii.net Farm Trails http://www.farmtrails.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 03 Jun 1998 15:32:53 -0400 The Black Powder Guide by Maj. George Nonte, is an oldie but goody. Rick Hacker's Muzzleloading Hunter is good but he does seem to have a slant away from flinters. Of course you can't go wrong with a Dixie Gunworks Catalog (best 5.00 you'll ever spend). For crafts, David Montgomery's Mountainman Crafts and Skills has some good stuff. Probably the best thing that you could do for your son is to buy him an NMLRA membership. By the way, your kid has figured out in 12 years what took me 36 years to figure out, this modern life is for the birds. -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Kierst [SMTP:kierst@newmex.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 11:58 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Anybody, My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and live the life. He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting. I'm looking for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks. K.Kierst ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 03 Jun 1998 14:39:03 -0600 Kevin, I would recommend the Book of Buckskinning series and Muzzleloader Magazine as excellent places to begin. Lots of ideas, how-to's, etc that are not too far off the mark you are aiming at. In my humble opinion, though, I would not buy a rifle of less than .50 caliber if he is at all thinking about hunting big game!! Most states do not allow less than .45 cal. for deer and .50 cal. for elk. I hunt elk with my .54 and wouldn't think of using anything smaller. This caliber rifle does not cost much or any more than a .40 caliber, & unless you are target practicing or hunting small critters only, I think it would save money in the long run. Just my opinion, I may be wrong Red Coyote > ---------- > From: Kevin Kierst > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 1998 09:58 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! > > Anybody, > My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade > books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and > live the life. He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his > birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting. I'm looking > for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks. > K.Kierst > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 03 Jun 1998 16:17:36 -0600 (CST) >Anybody, >My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade >books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and >live the life. He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his >birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting. I'm looking >for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks. > K.Kierst K. Kierst, A few steps to take in getting into this hobby (read: obsession) 1. If you're investing in a rifle for him, you might want to go a bit further and spend about a hundred or so bucks and get the entire _Book of Buckskinning_ (BoBS) series, vols. 1-7, by Scurlock (formerly Rebel) Publishing (800/228-6389). They're as good as it gets for intro basic and advanced information. Of course, you can go one vol. at a time. Start with volume 1, which is introductory, then 2, and so on. The prices have gone up periodically, so grab them while you can. I haven't seen them in book stores, but our local Tandy leather store has them. You can order them directly from Rebel, too. I'd encourage him to continue the Fur Trade reading, and maybe a subscription to _Muzzleloader_ magazine, published by the same good people who do the BoBS series. 2. Make sure you read and understand all you can about use and care of muzzleloading firearms *first*; THEN take him to the range and learn to shoot it safely. It would be good for you to learn the firearm, too, so you can coach him and enjoy it together. 3. Find out about fur trade/buckskinner living history events in your area and attend a few. This is where the real fun of the hobby comes in. The networking and exchange of knowledge is priceless. 4. Enjoy yourself. Everything else just falls into place. Welcome to the world of living history!! Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donald A. Ricetti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tornados and other bad weather Date: 03 Jun 1998 19:28:01 -0400 Scott: Thanks for your concern. Lots of folks are all pitching in to help in the clean up around the Pittsburgh area. The good news: The NMLRA Eastern Site wasn't touched. This was grave concern for the staff as we have thousands of man hours constructing the tavern and improving the grounds. Never even lost a tree! The Booshway, Segundo and Scribe also escaped any real damage. The Booshway witnessed a funnel cloud from afar and said that was as close as he would ever like to be again! Thanks again for the concern! Bear and Sleepy Bear - Segundo and Media Director '98 EPR respectively Scott Allen wrote: > Hello the list, > > Just putting out a note to make sure that everyone on the list from > western Maryland and northeast, West Virginia and Pennsylvania made > it thru the tornados and bad storms of the past couple of days. Speak > up so we know you are still out there. > > Your most humble servant, > Scott Allen > http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum Date: 03 Jun 1998 05:33:11 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8EB1.191B0A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well years ago I wrote a booklet on Time Tested Tanning Recipes I have 3 recipes on alum, salt and alum Tanning, Tanning with Alum Carbolic Acid, Tanning Furred Pelts with Alum Paste. It sells for $5 plus 2 32cent stamps, I also wrote a booklet on Wild Game recipes. Same price. Later Jon T ---------- : From: TetonTod@aol.com : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum : Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 6:25 AM : : For anyone interested in Alum Tanning, I would suggest contacting Kent Klein : who wrote a booklet entitled "Tan Your Hide the Alum Way." I have seen many of : Kents hides and they are superb and almost indistigushable from brain tanned. : My friend purchsed a 50 lb bag of alum at a chemical supply store. : : Kent can be contacted at KleinKC@juno.com : : Todd Glover ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8EB1.191B0A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well years ago I wrote a booklet on = Time Tested Tanning Recipes I have 3 recipes on alum,  salt and = alum Tanning,  Tanning with Alum Carbolic Acid,  Tanning = Furred Pelts with Alum Paste.    It sells for $5 plus 2 = 32cent stamps,  I also wrote a booklet on Wild Game recipes. =  Same price.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: TetonTod@aol.com
: = color=3D"#000000">
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: alum
: Date: = Wednesday, June 03, 1998 6:25 AM
:
: For anyone interested in = Alum Tanning, I would suggest contacting Kent Klein
: who wrote a = booklet entitled "Tan Your Hide the Alum Way." I have seen = many of
: Kents hides and they are superb and almost indistigushable = from brain tanned.
: My friend purchsed a 50 lb bag of alum at a = chemical supply store.
:
: Kent can be contacted at  KleinKC@juno.com
: =
: Todd Glover

------=_NextPart_000_01BD8EB1.191B0A40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 03 Jun 1998 20:28:35 -0500 Hang it like tobacco. I usually cut mine right after it blooms out on the stalk. Put about 12 leaves in a bundle and hang it up to dry. If you have an outdoor shed that has good ventilation, that would be the best place to hang it. Dry until the leaves are a soft tan color. YMOS, YellowFeather ---------- > From: john c funk,jr > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Cc: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... > Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 9:10 AM > > Ken, > > You mentioned in your "tobacco" note that "when dried > properly".......mullen smokes "smooth as silk". What constitutes "dried > properly"? I have tried dried mullen and found it quite harsh!!!!! > > John Funk > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 03 Jun 1998 19:28:36 -0700 Monte, Kinnikinnick is also called Bearberry here in the Pacific Northwest (upper left hand wet zone), or at the nursery you get it by it's scientific name: Arctostaphylos uva-ursi, in a half dozen varieties. The Arctostaphylos are the Manzanitas, and Kinnikinnicks are the low growing forms, native from about San Mateo CA through Alaska, and my garden books indicate that it is winter hardy throughout the country wherever the average minimum temperatures are above -40 or -50 F! Mine is about six inches tall, and will slowly spread to ten or fifteen feet across. It has lovely tiny shiny dark green leaves that turn reddish in the fall, tiny white bell like flowers and it sets red holly like berries in mid summer that stay on until the birds finish them off in the fall. Nurseries and garden books will help. For the suburban forager, once you can properly identify the stuff you may well start finding it all over the urban and suburban scene, it is a VERY common hardy ground cover. There may even be opportunities for a little "pruning"..... Before you try any of this learn the difference between Kinnikinnick and "Bearberry cotoneaster", a very similar looking ground cover, but a different genus: Cotoneaster dammeri and around here it looks darker green, has flowers that are not bell shaped, and has some branches that arc up into the air in a characteristic way. This is another hardy common ground cover, and I have no idea how safely it would smoke. Ya might try looking over both at a nursery to sort out the differences. Crazy Crow sells Kinnikinnick smoking mixtures. Watch yer topknot, Night Heron Monte Holder wrote: > Is there another name for kinnickinnick that I missed somewhere along the way? > And what is its growing range? I would assume if there are berries, there would > be seeds. Wonder if a guy could grow some here in Missouri? > Monte Holder > Saline CO MO > > BTW, I grow some tobacco here in central Missouri from time to time and smoke it > occasionally in a pipe, but it really works great for keeping hornworms off my > tomatos and they are easier to see on those great big leaves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 03 Jun 1998 19:31:56 -0700 Kevin; I'm gona weigh in on this too because getting started right in this game is just about the most important thing you can do. Every one has a right to their opinion and I do not mean to offend but we used to refer to Dixie Gun works as 'Dixie Junk Works' and I believe for good reason. I recently sent for one of their catalogs and it was full of just as much junk as it's always had. If you are looking for parts to a wide variety of guns, good and bad, then it is a good catalogue to have. If you want to be sure that what is being presented to you as quality and authentically styled merchandise then 'Track of The Wolf' is a better catalogue to choose from. It isn't the only one but is a good one. I will vote to recommend that you get your son a membership in NRA not NMLRA and that you look to the 'Book of Buck skinning" series vol.'s #1 through #7 as the best source for information on how to do it right. At any rate go slow and look everything over with a critical eye. My vote goes to the larger caliber guns too and for the same reasons. In my state of WA. and in most states, 50 cal. is considered minimum for lager game like elk and even though I've taken deer with a 50 cal. flinter, I long ago converted to 54 cal. and wouldn't go back. I would go so far as to recommend that you consider starting him out with a 20 gauge smooth bore flint musket in NW trade gun length or longer. This gun shoots light (light recoil) with a sane load of 60 to 70 grains and will take bird shot as well as a round ball. Since it is a smooth bore, the purity of the lead you use for your round balls is not critical and thus opens up a large area of possible supply. I and friends hunt all game with this type of gun and cal. from quail to elk and bear with full confidence in the weapons ability to make clean kills. If you aren't thinking of hunting but more towards target shooting, the trade gun is still a good choice. I have seen trade guns out shoot rifles many times in the hands of a shooter who will learn his weapon and how to get the most from it. My recommendations for resource material leans towards the more recent authors for much of the information put out 20 or 30 years ago has proven in my opinion to be more guess than fact. The knowledge of the sport has increased many times since I got started and I have had to re-evaluate my beliefs many times. Good luck to you both and I hope we have all been helpful and not muddied the water too much. YMOS Capt. Lahti Kevin Kierst wrote: > Anybody, > My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade > books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and > live the life. He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his > birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting. I'm looking > for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks. > K.Kierst ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 03 Jun 1998 19:49:55 -0700 Hmmmmmm, Kevin, if you were looking for somebody to talk you and / or your son out of buckskinning, you are talking to the wrong folks here. We are all learning as we go but all have to some extent at least the desire your son demonstrates. One of the best ways for me to learn these ways and crafts, after the book and internet reading is talking with new found friends at rendezvous and gun clubs that specialize in blackpowder shooting. I would certainly suggest that you NOT try to learn shooting based only on video and book learnin'! I am very fortunate to have a specialized blackpowder gun shop fifteen minutes drive from me, and the folks there will give you great advice. The advice is not always perfectly consistent, but that only helps you learn what is most important (the stuff they all agree on) and what you will need to work your own way into. I wonder how many on the list started at such a tender age? I have helped eleven year old Scouts shoot BP (blackpowder, not Baden Powell!) and in other settings children much younger than that have enjoyed carefully supervised shooting. Several of the boys in my troop are bitten, and our area has a MM specialized Explorer post. Kevin, why don't you let us know where you are, and very likely some experienced list members will be nearby and can help. Night Heron Kevin Kierst wrote: > Anybody, > My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade > books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and > live the life. He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his > birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting. I'm looking > for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks. > K.Kierst ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Tobacco Date: 03 Jun 1998 20:33:49 -0700 --------------3D6799DBA87D567817E3A361 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ken said Mullen leaves are fantastic! Not only do they make great toilet paper substitute but when properly dried they.... Ken, you must be mistaking Mullein with something else like balsamroot, or your butt is made of cast iron. Common Mullein is covered with fine prickly hairs all over, The leaves of the first year rosette do resemble Mule ears or balsamroot. I have had to do weed control projects where I removed an acre of Mullein, and afterwards I had to strip to my underwear to drive home without going mad from the itching. Mullein is a biennial and in the first year resembles Balsamroot, but in the second year produces a stalk 2 to 6 feet tall with a dense spike like flower head on top. Mullein stalks are good for fire drills and the leaves when pulverized can be used to stun fish. If you are not using Balsamroot and do smoke and use Mullein as toilet paper I am sorry for suggesting otherwise. A good book for reference on plants in the arid and alpine West is "Sagebrush Country: A Wildflower Sanctuary" by Ronald J. Taylor. If you can post again to clarify exactly which plant you are talking about. Chris Sega --------------3D6799DBA87D567817E3A361 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ken said
  Mullen leaves are fantastic! Not only do they make great toilet paper
substitute but when properly dried they....
    Ken, you must be mistaking Mullein with something else like balsamroot, or your butt is made of cast iron.  Common Mullein is covered with fine prickly hairs all over, The leaves of the first year rosette do resemble Mule ears or balsamroot.  I have had to do weed control projects where I removed an acre of Mullein, and afterwards I had to strip to my underwear to drive home without going mad from the itching.  Mullein is a biennial and in the first year resembles Balsamroot, but in the second year produces a stalk 2 to 6 feet tall with a dense spike like flower head on top.  Mullein stalks are good for fire drills and the leaves when pulverized can be used to stun fish.  If you are not using Balsamroot  and do smoke and use Mullein as toilet paper I am sorry for suggesting otherwise.  A good book for reference on plants in the arid and alpine West is "Sagebrush Country: A Wildflower Sanctuary" by Ronald J. Taylor.  If you can post again to clarify exactly which plant you are talking about.        Chris Sega --------------3D6799DBA87D567817E3A361-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 03 Jun 1998 21:30:11 -0600 At 08:58 AM 6/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >Anybody, >My almost 12-yr old has been bitten bad: reads nothing but fur trade >books, built himself a MM rig, plans to move to canada in a few yrs and >live the life. He's getting a .40 caliber muzzleloader for his >birhtday, but neither of us know anything about shooting. I'm looking >for books/videos that could help a couple of novices. Thanks. > K.Kierst > Howdy, There's a relatively new book & video combo out lately that's about the best I've seen for somebody just startin. It's "Dress and Equipage of the Mountain Man 1820-1840", from Rocky Mt. College Productions, 505/687-3267. Get the book and video together for about $37 bucks. They've got pretty good historical references, and are focused on the Mountain Men during the rendezvous period.. Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: earlalan@srv.net (Allen Hall) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning Date: 03 Jun 1998 23:05:57 -0600 (MDT) Ron, >Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides? >While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good >enough substitute, without the mess. > >Thanks in advance! >Ron Actually, brains aren't that much of a mess, and I bet they are much less messy than lard and flour! Allen Hall ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 04 Jun 1998 03:37:42 EDT In a message dated 98-06-03 19:03:46 EDT, you write: << n my humble opinion, though, I would not buy a rifle of less than .50 caliber if he is at all thinking about hunting big game! >> Hey! Wait a minute! We're talking about a 12 yr old's learnin' gun! .40 is a great plenty! We don't want him kicked so hard he quits after the first shot. Start him slow -- first on the range with light loads until he gets his loading proficiency & marksmanship down, then go after a few bunnies & squirrels. When he turns 16 or so, then get the larger bore -- preferably in a flint lock -- & go fo bigger game. Don't let him get discouraged right at first if his rifle doesn't drive tacks. A lot of muzzleloaders need a "break in period" which can take as many as 250 - 500 shots, but most will settle down around 100 shots or so. Take time to try different loaadings, by which I mean different powder charger, ball sizes, patch thicknesses & even different brands of powder. The normal ball sizes for a .40 will be either .390 or .395 -- both sizes will shoot a bit differently, & the rifle will tell you which to use. 'cuz it'll shoot that size best. Try different patch thicknesses -- .010, .015, & .018 in. thick. Again the rifle will tell you which it likes. Start the powder charge about 30 gr of FFFg & bump it up 5 gr for every 5 shots when trying the different ball sizes & patch thicknesses. I'd put a 50 gr limit on it for him. As for powder, use a good black powder like Goex or Elephant. My personal preference is Goex, but some people like the Elephant -- try 'em both & see which you like. Be advised that Elephant doesn't quite have the energy Goex does, so you need to load it a smidge heavier -- 3 - 5 gr extra over the Goex charge in a .40 should even the velocities out. Stay away from the substitutes like Pyrodex & Black Canyon -- especialy at first. The substitutes are a bit finikey & sometimes don't do what's expected. Have him attend the Safe Hunter program -- they have a excelent section on B/P shooting & he'll learn proper gun handling, & meet his requirement for a hunting licnese as well. Attent the class with him. I used to be a NRA Safe Hunter instructor, but when my son went through the class, I went too ----- & learned a few things myself! When I taught the course back in the mis '60's archery & B/P wasn't part of the course -- I'm glad to see that's been incorperated. Most new rifles/guns come with a pretty good instruction book. Have him read it -- & read it yourself. BE SURE TO USE A POWDER MEASURE!!! Use a good patch lube or you can start him out with the prelubed patches. Everybody has their own pet mix for patch lube which can be anything from spit to Wonderlube -- both work, but my favorite is Mac's 13 -- sold at NAPA auto parts stores as NAPA 13 -- also works as a cleaner & it's cheap! Cleaners -- again, everybody has their own prefered cleaner, but hot soap & water is hard to beat. After a thurough cleaning be sure the bore is dry & lightly oil -- here I prefer Break Free, but there are a lot of other good products out there that work well too -- like Hopies gun oil & even WD-40. Remember, Hopies #9 is formulated for modern powders & won't work that well on a B/P gun -- Hopies DOES make a B/P cleaner that works pretty good. Hope this helps a bit. The books & magazines that have been mentioned are all good, but Track of the Wolf is geared more toward the gun builder. Excelent catalog, but maybe a bit advanced at this stage. A lot of times we forget what it was like when we first started & think more in the terms of where we're at now, so sometimes we advise someone just starting like they're a 30 yr vet with a smoke pole. Other good sources are Jas. Townsed & Son, Log Cabin, North West Traders, & a host of others. Someone advised getting a subscription to Muzzleloader magazine & a membership in NMLRA which includes a subscription to Muzzle Blast magazine. Thumb through these magazines & you'll see all kinds of adds for catalogs as well as the ones I & others have mentioned -- get the ones we've talked about first. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 04 Jun 1998 06:33:46 EDT In reference to red willow smell, I definitely know what you mean. My son smokes natural herbs of the legal kind. We were out having pizza and he lit up one of his cigarrettes after dinner. The police arrived soon after. Fortunately, he had the package the "Bidis" came in and the problem was resolved. But for you buckskinners out there smoking this stuff at camp or otherwise, be forewarned and prepared to prove your source. Red Hawk. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 04 Jun 1998 06:39:17 EDT I had to respond to this one. As a member in goodstanding of the NMLRA and a female to boot, I would disagree that the NRA is a better organization for a CHILD who is interested in being a buckskinner. Those of us who seek out the "older values" and ways of the past definintely do not fit into the NRA mentality except for maybe agreeing of the right to bear arms. Red Hawk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Katona" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning Date: 04 Jun 1998 07:27:27 +0000 D Ron, >Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides? >While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good >enough substitute, without the mess. > >Thanks in advance! >Ron Actually, brains aren't that much of a mess, and I bet they are much less messy than lard and flour! Allen Hall Isn't it amazing how much effort goes into trying to avoid doing things correctly? Kind of like powdered eggs. Next we will be jerking hotdogs and reconstituting them for a weenie roast at voo. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 04 Jun 1998 07:45:39 -0700 some comments from the dad of a 13 yr old.... My son started shooting frontstuffers at the age of eight. he started out with a 32 cal percussion squirrel rifle. he became rather bored with the pop-crack of that gun . Now he is shooting my 58 cal flint Barnett trade gun, no loads over 50 grains at this point, with great excitement! Its all a progression. Start out where you feel the most comfortable. If he's shooting targets, 40 cal is fine. If hunting, Deer can be taken quite effectively with a 40. Wouldn't try it fer griz r buff tho... Vic Vic Nathan Barkin Printing and Reproduction Services Manager NAU Publication Services Box 4101, Flagstaff, AZ 86011 520-523-6160 Victor.Barkin@nau.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 04 Jun 1998 07:51:13 -0700 OOOPs, wrong John Hancock! >some comments from the dad of a 13 yr old.... > >My son started shooting frontstuffers at the age of eight. he started out >with a 32 cal percussion squirrel rifle. he became rather bored with the >pop-crack of that gun . Now he is shooting my 58 cal flint Barnett trade >gun, no loads over 50 grains at this point, with great excitement! Its all >a progression. Start out where you feel the most comfortable. If he's >shooting targets, 40 cal is fine. If hunting, Deer can be taken quite >effectively with a 40. Wouldn't try it fer griz r buff tho... > >Vic Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party "Aux aliments du pays!" Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WIDD-Tim Austin (WIDD-Tim Austin) Subject: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 04 Jun 1998 08:21:29 -0500 Kevin, I have to agree with what Roger Lahti said. My boys both got hooked on buckskinning years ago, and I had the same process to go through that you are having now. After being a member of the MNLRA for 10 years, and the last was a 5 year membership, I left them. They are not really interested in anything outside of Friendship and rarely offered anything remotely connected with someone interested in furtrade or mountain man stuff and because they try to offer "all" of black powder they include all the modern black powder guns. I got them life memberships in the NRA, and do not regret it at all. I also got them a small gun, .36, that I was able to make for almost nothing, less than a $100, and when they became 15 bought them a .54. That seems to be the better of all occasions. Some states have a minimum requirement and the largest minimum is .54, so I went with that. Good luck and just remember, keep it simple. Tim Austin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 04 Jun 1998 11:05:10 -0600 (CST) .45, or .50, makes little difference to adults, but for a 12 year old kid, .40 is a good caliber to start with, especially since he is just beginning. .40 cal is also historically accurate for a period when standard calibers were not the rule. There were plenty .40s out there "back then." I say let the kid learn with a .40, then graduate to something else. If I read his question correctly, we're not talking about going out and hunting befiore the basics are learned. We're talking about learning the basics of shooting and firearm safety. For that a .40 is adequate. When the hunting phase begins, after he becomes proficient, then maybe an upgrade is in order. I think a .40 for a 12 year old beginner is clearly a judicious choice made by a thoughtful parent. IMHO HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 04 Jun 1998 14:15:10 EDT As for picking a gun, a local B/P club would be a good place to start. Most of us guys are more than willing to talk (sometimes endlessly) and you'll get plenty of help. Its also likely you'll get the chance to shoot a number of different calibers. And as NaugaMok said, matching your load to the gun breaking in a barrel are critical. Get it right and you WILL BE nailing tacks. About joining a national organization? Well, its certainly your choice, BUT, the NRA for a buckskinner? hmmmm. In my humble opinion, it's questionable whether they have the mind-set and/or interests of us buckskinner/traditionalist types at heart. The NMLRA seems to be quite a bit more in tune, AND puts on some darned good rendezvous'. Hope to meet you at one of 'em soon. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 04 Jun 1998 12:51:01 -0700 --------------275368AD00D5822CA661E927 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Buried in all that has come over the list on this subject is some good advice. Get with some buck skinners/traditionalists and let them help. Do some research and spend your time and money wisely. On the subject of Nat. Organizations: I understand that your son is hooked on being a MM/buck skinner. That sounds like traditionalist to me and NMLRA plays to too many different aspects of the sport to be good at serving the needs of the budding traditionalist. I used to belong to NMLRA until I learned about 'The Buckskin Report' and in it's turn 'Muzzleloader Mag.'. Those two publications spoke to the traditionalist in me unlike NMLRA's Muzzle Blasts, which was mostly full of news of the 'Shoot' results at 'Friendship' and the latest in muzzle loading gear for the shooter who didn't want to do it the old way but wanted his muzzle loading to be as close to shooting modern cartridge firearms as modern technology will allow. I still joined the NMLRA each year though, because it was a requirement for entry into the National Rendezvous' that were held out West. I did until NMLRA sued me and others and took all the money that I and others had invested in the western rendezvous. I don't support the NMLRA any more. I spend my money on the NRA, an organization that at least is dedicated to fighting on a national level to protect my right to 'Keep and Bear Arms' from my 18th century musket to my 20th century semi auto. I can go to 'Muzzle Loader' and other such mag.s for reading material that is truly aimed at the traditionalist/buckskinner/longhunter etc. NMLRA puts on some darn fine rendezvous: Well it always seemed to me that it was the folks in the field that put on those darn fine rendezvous, not the hierarchy back in Friendship, Indiana. I'm sure the folks that still do put on NMLRA sanctioned rendezvous put on darn fine do'ins but my time is limited and I choose to attend non NMLRA events. Non NMLRA events are some darn fine do'ins too and it don't cost me another $30 for a membership in a club back east. Bottom line is this is my humble opinion and it may not fit anyone else. You asked and you got! And I should shut up and mind my own business. Not likely! Your most humble and obedient servant Capt. Lahti RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > As for picking a gun, a local B/P club would be a good place to start. Most of > us guys are more than willing to talk (sometimes endlessly) and you'll get > plenty of help. Its also likely you'll get the chance to shoot a number of > different calibers. And as NaugaMok said, matching your load to the gun > breaking in a barrel are critical. Get it right and you WILL BE nailing > tacks. > > About joining a national organization? Well, its certainly your choice, BUT, > the NRA for a buckskinner? hmmmm. In my humble opinion, it's questionable > whether they have the mind-set and/or interests of us > buckskinner/traditionalist types at heart. The NMLRA seems to be quite a bit > more in tune, AND puts on some darned good rendezvous'. Hope to meet you at > one of 'em soon. PJ --------------275368AD00D5822CA661E927 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Buried in all that has come over the list on this subject is some good advice. Get with some buck skinners/traditionalists and let them help. Do some research and spend your time and money wisely.

On the subject of Nat. Organizations: I understand that your son is hooked on being a MM/buck skinner. That sounds like traditionalist to me and NMLRA plays to too many different aspects of the sport to be good at serving the needs of the budding traditionalist. I used to belong to NMLRA until I learned about 'The Buckskin Report' and in it's turn 'Muzzleloader Mag.'. Those two publications spoke to the traditionalist in me unlike NMLRA's Muzzle Blasts, which was mostly full of news of the 'Shoot' results at 'Friendship' and the latest in muzzle loading gear for the shooter who didn't want to do it the old way but wanted his muzzle loading to be as close to shooting modern cartridge firearms as modern technology will allow.

I still joined the NMLRA each year though, because it was a requirement for entry into the National Rendezvous' that were held out West. I did until NMLRA sued me and others and took all the money that I and others had invested in the western rendezvous. I don't support the NMLRA any more. I spend my money on the NRA, an organization that at least is dedicated to fighting on a national level to protect my right to 'Keep and Bear Arms' from my 18th century musket to my 20th century semi auto. I can go to 'Muzzle Loader' and other such mag.s for reading material that is truly aimed at the traditionalist/buckskinner/longhunter etc.

NMLRA puts on some darn fine rendezvous: Well it always seemed to me that it was the folks in the field that put on those darn fine rendezvous, not the hierarchy back in Friendship, Indiana. I'm sure the folks that still do put on NMLRA sanctioned rendezvous put on darn fine do'ins but my time is limited and I choose to attend non NMLRA events. Non NMLRA events are some darn fine do'ins too and it don't cost me another $30 for a membership in a club back east.

Bottom line is this is my humble opinion and it may not fit anyone else. You asked and you got!
And I should shut up and mind my own business. Not likely!

Your most humble and obedient servant
Capt. Lahti

RR1LA@aol.com wrote:

As for picking a gun, a local B/P club would be a good place to start. Most of
us guys are more than willing to talk (sometimes endlessly) and you'll get
plenty of help. Its also likely you'll  get the chance to shoot a number of
different calibers.  And as NaugaMok said, matching your load to the gun
breaking in a barrel are critical.  Get it right and you WILL BE nailing
tacks.

About joining a national organization? Well, its certainly your choice,  BUT,
the NRA for a buckskinner?  hmmmm.  In my humble opinion, it's questionable
whether they have the mind-set and/or interests of us
buckskinner/traditionalist types at heart.  The NMLRA seems to be quite a bit
more in tune, AND puts on some darned good rendezvous'.  Hope to meet you at
one of 'em soon.  PJ

  --------------275368AD00D5822CA661E927-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Les Chaffin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:59:19 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B47C49B49E97836DEFEE1BFB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some already do that. Mike Katona wrote: > > D > Ron, > > >Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides? > >While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good > >enough substitute, without the mess. > > > >Thanks in advance! > >Ron > > Actually, brains aren't that much of a mess, and I bet they are much less > messy than lard and flour! > > Allen Hall > > Isn't it amazing how much effort goes into trying to avoid doing > things correctly? > Kind of like powdered eggs. Next we will be jerking hotdogs and > reconstituting them for a weenie roast at voo. > > Mike --------------B47C49B49E97836DEFEE1BFB Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Les Chaffin Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Les Chaffin n: Chaffin ;Les org: Twin Falls Computer Center Mgr. adr;dom: 34 Barton Lane;;;Twin Falls;Idaho;83301; email;internet: chaflesl@isu.edu title: Idaho State University tel;work: 208-736-2119 tel;fax: 208-236-4836 tel;home: 208-736-6002 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------B47C49B49E97836DEFEE1BFB-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tanning Date: 04 Jun 1998 15:45:23 -0700 I have a friend that skillet parches canned Boston baked beans. oughta go real good with them doggie jerks. Barkin Dawg >Some already do that. > >Mike Katona wrote: >> >> D >> Ron, >> >> >Does the finished hide resemble brain tanned hides? >> >While I know it wouldn't be authentic, I was wondering if it was a good >> >enough substitute, without the mess. >> > >> >Thanks in advance! >> >Ron >> >> Actually, brains aren't that much of a mess, and I bet they are much less >> messy than lard and flour! >> >> Allen Hall >> >> Isn't it amazing how much effort goes into trying to avoid doing >> things correctly? >> Kind of like powdered eggs. Next we will be jerking hotdogs and >> reconstituting them for a weenie roast at voo. >> >> Mike > >Content-type: text/x-vcard; name=vcard.vcf; charset=us-ascii >Content-description: Card for Les Chaffin >Content-disposition: attachment; filename=vcard.vcf >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > >Attachment converted: Zhil Hosteen:vcard.vcf 13 (TEXT/ttxt) (000328F4) Vic Nathan Barkin Printing and Reproduction Services Manager NAU Publication Services Box 4101, Flagstaff, AZ 86011 520-523-6160 Victor.Barkin@nau.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carpenter Family Subject: MtMan-List: Parafin oil Date: 04 Jun 1998 19:25:27 -0700 Hello the list: We found, in my grandfathers garage, some parafin oil My grandfather was born in 1903 and died about 5 years ago. I know he did many things the old ways, because he was brought up that way, on the farm, in Nebraska. I have never heard of parafin oil. Does anyone have info on this? Was it used by old timers for waterproofing? I doubt this material dates back to the fur trade days, but I believe it to be old. I don't think parafin was around in the 1830's. Is this related to what we know as parafin, today, or not? Thanks - Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannmason1@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parafin oil Date: 04 Jun 1998 22:39:10 EDT On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 19:25:27 -0700 Carpenter Family writes: >Hello the list: >We found, in my grandfathers garage, some parafin oil My grandfather >was born in 1903 and died about 5 years ago. I know he did many >things >the old ways, because he was brought up that way, on the farm, in >Nebraska. I have never heard of parafin oil. Does anyone have info >on >this? Wow! A question I can actually answer, as we just finished a discussion of paraffin oil on another list I'm on. :-) Paraffin oil is an early name for kerosene AKA lamp oil. > Was it used by old timers for waterproofing? I doubt this >material dates back to the fur trade days, but I believe it to be old. > >I don't think parafin was around in the 1830's. Is this related to >what >we know as parafin, today, or not? Not really. As I said, it's an early name for lamp oil or kerosene. Do NOT attempt to use it for waterproofing as you would essentially make a huge, solvent soaked torch just begging for a stray spark to come visiting. I think the general consensus reached on the other list was that this "paraffin oil" dates at the EARLIEST to the mid 1850's. Hope this has been of some help. LuAnn > >Thanks - Carp > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 05 Jun 1998 01:19:46 EDT thank you for making me see another side of the coin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: earlalan@srv.net (Allen Hall) Subject: MtMan-List: Frock coat pattern Date: 04 Jun 1998 23:31:13 -0600 (MDT) Hello the List, I'm just finishing up some hides for a frock coat/hunting jacket as seen in the Miller paintings. Does anyone have suggestions for a pattern? Appreciate your help, Allen Hall in Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Despain Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail Shooting Pouch Date: 05 Jun 1998 11:46:01 -0400 Anyone, I've been trying to find a good pattern for a Beaver Tail Shooting Pouch, but have yet to find one. Does anyone out there know where to go for such a pattern or have one? Thanks, Matt Despain sdespain@ou.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail Shooting Pouch Date: 05 Jun 1998 12:09:49 -0600 Matt, I don't know where to buy specific patterns for shooting bags, I have always made my own. There are two good sources, well actually one. Book of Buckskinning #2, chapter 5 Book of Buckskinning #6, chapter 1 Both give excellent examples of period pouches and instructions for making your own. Good luck. Mail me offline for any specific help you may need. I've made several for family and friends Red Coyote > ---------- > From: Matt Despain > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Friday, June 5, 1998 09:46 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Cc: Matt Despain > Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail Shooting Pouch > > Anyone, > > I've been trying to find a good pattern for a Beaver Tail Shooting > Pouch, but have yet to find one. Does anyone out there know where to go > for such a pattern or have one? > > Thanks, > > Matt Despain > sdespain@ou.edu > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kirk L. Davis" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail Shooting Pouch Date: 05 Jun 1998 13:15:12 -0600 At 11:46 AM 6/5/1998 -0400, Matt Despain wrote: >Anyone, > >I've been trying to find a good pattern for a Beaver Tail Shooting >Pouch, but have yet to find one. Does anyone out there know where to go >for such a pattern or have one? > Try this web site, it is the Muntain Men and the Fur Trade Site and has drawings and a pattern made from an origional. http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/skchbk01.html Kirk L. Davis Salt Lake City, UT kirk.davis@m.cc.utah.edu ***********GO JAZZ************ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Flap Shooting Pouches Date: 05 Jun 1998 14:31:30 -0600 Ho the list, To Matt and everyone else confused by now, the articles concerning pouches are in Book of Buckskinning #3, chapter 5 and B-o-B #6, chapter 1 Sorry Lou ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail Shooting Pouch Date: 05 Jun 1998 18:14:13 -0400 MATT-- i HAVE AN ORIGINAL AND ALSO HAVE A PATTERN AND A SET OF INSTRUCTIONS FOR A DOUBLE POCKET BEAVERTALE SHOOTING BAG-- I MADE MINE FROM A OLD MAIL POUCH AND IT HAS LASTED OVER 30 YEARS--- ITS NOT LARGE BUT VERY EFFECIENT AND USEFUL. CONTACT ME OFFLINE AND GIVE ME YOUR NAME ADDRESS AND SUCH AND WE WILL TRY TO FIX YOU UP. =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 11:46:01 -0400 Matt Despain writes: >Anyone, > >I've been trying to find a good pattern for a Beaver Tail Shooting >Pouch, but have yet to find one. Does anyone out there know where to >go >for such a pattern or have one? > >Thanks, > >Matt Despain >sdespain@ou.edu > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: RIFLE FOR KID Date: 05 Jun 1998 18:18:31 -0400 WOULD kEVIN kERST PLEASE CONTACT ME OFF LINE SO THAT I HAVE PROPER E-MAIL ADDRESS: "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: khall@spacetech.com (Ken Hall) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hemp Date: 07 Jun 1998 00:21:49 GMT Hail the list: Although this URL is regestered to Hemp Textiles International the resultant page is for VERIO a Pacific Northwest ISP. Is Hemp Textiles out of business?? Regrads, /Ken On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:46:59 EDT, you wrote: >also check out www.hemptex.com > >Todd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 06 Jun 1998 20:21:55 -0700 Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly loaded for a young shooter. This all but eliminates recoil and will still shoot surprisingly well. My 54 cal. Lyman Plains Rifle will shoot VERY well even with a particularly young or inexperienced shooter in the 30 and 40 grain loads of Pyrodex and .535 ball/.015 patch; with almost no kick, very acceptable accuracy for a beginner, and the ability to move up to heavier loads and very good "Hawken" historical accuracy later as needed. Granted that a young teen will struggle packing a nine pound rifle over very many miles hunting, it remains my favorite "factory rifle", particularly when customized from the inexpensive kit form. This .54 cal. rifle will serve all the way from beginning shooter on the range to big game hunter or historically "correct" reenacter for the American Fur Trade era you mentioned. Starting with a .40 cal rifle will also be fine at the start, but might well leave the shooter with an inferiority complex later. I grant you that lots of smaller caliber rifles served very well in historic times, and still can do their magic today, including increasing the stress on making a single shot count in hunting -- I still feel that the idea of loading each and every frontstuffer shot to suit the shooter and the target opens up the larger calibers to beginning shooters in ways cartrige shooters can only envy. Night Heron (aka Gary Bell) Henry B. Crawford wrote: > .45, or .50, makes little difference to adults, but for a 12 year old kid, > .40 is a good caliber to start with, especially since he is just beginning. > .40 cal is also historically accurate for a period when standard calibers > were not the rule. There were plenty .40s out there "back then." > > I say let the kid learn with a .40, then graduate to something else. If I > read his question correctly, we're not talking about going out and hunting > befiore the basics are learned. We're talking about learning the basics of > shooting and firearm safety. For that a .40 is adequate. When the > hunting phase begins, after he becomes proficient, then maybe an upgrade is > in order. I think a .40 for a 12 year old beginner is clearly a judicious > choice made by a thoughtful parent. > > IMHO > HBC > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail Shooting Pouch Date: 07 Jun 1998 00:04:31 -0400 good talking to you and will ship your pattern and buckel out monday-- will look thru the garage and see if i have the pattern and will ship it too if i find it-. last copy of instructions so please return when you are done with it--good hunting and good buckskinning---keep your nose to the wind and your eyes along the skyline--- YMHOSANT "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 07 Jun 1998 01:18:22 -0400 Gary Bell wrote: > > Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no > disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability > of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly > loaded for a young shooter. This all but eliminates recoil and will still > shoot surprisingly well. My 54 cal. Lyman Plains Rifle will shoot VERY well > even with a particularly young or inexperienced shooter in the 30 and 40 grain > loads of Pyrodex and .535 ball/.015 patch; with almost no kick, very acceptable [snip] Just a caution, Gary. Pyrodex is MUCH, MUCH more corrosive than black, and since the topic is teaching youngsters, I'll mention that there is cyanide released with every shot, as well as from unburned powder. Take a look at the Pyro. patent sometime....it's a real "eye opener." Regards, Fred -- "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." Bill Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 06 Jun 1998 23:13:55 -0700 Hi Fred! Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must confess, I have never tried real BP! I got started with some book advice about both, and advice from the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman rifles that Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues too. I have the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have developed my own sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion. I have a pretty good education in biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide toxicity issue, thanks for the timely input. I have taught university classes in mammalian physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity of cyanide and sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out. I have some trouble with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide in normal usage is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of your message will get prompt attention. The next moves are mine: I should run up a series of shots with Goex and with Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also check out the toxicity issue you brought to our attention. Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on these two issues? By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues covered on this list about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant for me. I have always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder behind the ball and patch when I had a failure to fire. I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for the incentive! To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too. Night Heron aka Gary Bell Fred A. Miller wrote: > Gary Bell wrote: > > > > Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no > > disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability > > of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly > > loaded for a young shooter. This all but eliminates recoil and will still > > shoot surprisingly well. My 54 cal. Lyman Plains Rifle will shoot VERY well > > even with a particularly young or inexperienced shooter in the 30 and 40 grain > > loads of Pyrodex and .535 ball/.015 patch; with almost no kick, very acceptable > > [snip] > > Just a caution, Gary. Pyrodex is MUCH, MUCH more corrosive than black, > and since the topic is teaching youngsters, I'll mention that there is > cyanide released with every shot, as well as from unburned powder. Take > a look at the Pyro. patent sometime....it's a real "eye opener." > > Regards, > > Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 07 Jun 1998 09:58:37 -0400 Gary Bell wrote: > > Hi Fred! > > Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must confess, I have > never tried real BP! I got started with some book advice about both, and advice from > the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman rifles that > Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion issues too. I have Well, sorry, but it's BAD information. Pyro. will also "eat" the breech UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out hunting a deer. The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and Pyro. is made of 19% p.p. > the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have developed my own > sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion. I have a pretty good education in > biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide toxicity issue, > thanks for the timely input. I have taught university classes in mammalian > physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative toxicity of cyanide and > sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out. I have some trouble > with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of cyanide in normal usage > is available without warning or government control, so that aspect of your message > will get prompt attention. ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO. > The next moves are mine: I should run up a series of shots with Goex and with > Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also check out the > toxicity issue you brought to our attention. 2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a fertilizer grade nitrate. They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades. The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily obtainable. > Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on these two > issues? > > By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues covered on this list > about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant for me. I have > always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no powder behind the > ball and patch when I had a failure to fire. Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint. Pyro. is also MUCH more hygroscopic than black. > I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for the incentive! > To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too. GOOD! Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a compound used in the "mix." Properly described, Pyrodex is a pyrotecnic mixture. Regards, Fred -- "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." Bill Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 07 Jun 1998 10:35:39 -0400 WHY ARE YOU EVEN SUGGESTING THE USE OF PYRODIX---MY FEELINGS ARE IF I USE PYRODIX THEN I NEED TO GO OUT AND GET ME SOME PINK NOGGIEHIDE BUCKSKINS TO WEAR SO THAT I CAN FEEL RIGHT AT HOME. THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION HAS GOTTEN OFF THE BASIC INITIAL QUESTION OF WHERE CAN THEY FIND INFORMATION AND A VIDEO ON THE PROPER USE AND MAINTENANCE AND CARE AND FEEDING OF A BLACK POWDER FIREARM THAT A 14 YEAR OLD CAN UNDERSTAND. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:58:37 -0400 "Fred A. Miller" writes: >Gary Bell wrote: >> >> Hi Fred! >> >> Hmmm, I have never investigated the chemistry of Pyrodex, and I must >confess, I have >> never tried real BP! I got started with some book advice about >both, and advice from >> the local specialty frontstuffer shop where I found both of my Lyman >rifles that >> Pyrodex was the only choice for ease of cleaning and corrosion >issues too. I have > >Well, sorry, but it's BAD information. Pyro. will also "eat" the >breech >UNburned, so a loaded rifle is slowly being destroyed while you're out >hunting a deer. The "nasty" ingredient is potassium perchlorate, and >Pyro. is made of 19% p.p. > >> the usual issues with cleaning that I think we all have, and I have >developed my own >> sense and experience about cleaning and corrosion. I have a pretty >good education in >> biology and in chemistry and will check out the cyanide vs sulfide >toxicity issue, >> thanks for the timely input. I have taught university classes in >mammalian >> physiology and have a strong recollection about the relative >toxicity of cyanide and >> sulfide compounds, this shouldn't be that hard to check out. I have >some trouble >> with the notion that a product that produces toxic amounts of >cyanide in normal usage >> is available without warning or government control, so that aspect >of your message >> will get prompt attention. > >ANY amount of cyanide is too much, IMHO. > >> The next moves are mine: I should run up a series of shots with >Goex and with >> Pyrodex, so I have my own experience to draw upon; and I should also >check out the >> toxicity issue you brought to our attention. > >2 other black powders are more consistant, produce less fouling, and >have less sodium nitrate in the fouling because they DON'T use a >fertilizer grade nitrate. They are Elephant and the WANO "P" grades. >The latter may be hard to find, but Elephant should be easily >obtainable. > >> Are any of the rest of the list available to input the discussion on >these two >> issues? >> >> By the way, both of my rigs are percussion locks, so the issues >covered on this list >> about flinter ignition with either propellant are not as significant >for me. I have >> always found a plugged nipple, leftover oil from storage, or no >powder behind the >> ball and patch when I had a failure to fire. > >Pyro. will ignight with percussion, but NOT flint. Pyro. is also MUCH >more hygroscopic than black. > >> I enjoy any excuse to go squirt some balls downrange, so thanks for >the incentive! >> To be honest, I enjoy the research challenge too. > >GOOD! Since you like doing the research, you'll find the cyanide in a >compound used in the "mix." Properly described, Pyrodex is a >pyrotecnic >mixture. > >Regards, > >Fred > >-- >"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the >rights of ordinary Americans ..." > >Bill Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A) > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help! My kid wants to be a buckskinner! Date: 07 Jun 1998 13:30:05 EDT In a message dated 98-06-06 23:25:01 EDT, you write: << Forgive me for weighing in a second time on this topic, and I certainly mean no disrespect for HBC, but I would like to enter into the discussion the ability of a larger caliber frontstuffer rifle (or gun for that matter!!) to be lightly loaded for a young shooter. This all but eliminates recoil and will still shoot surprisingly well. I think you're addressing my comment about recoil. True, a G/P CAN be lightly loaded & give surprising accuracy at short range -- I have one in .50 percussion that does very well with 25 gr FF. It does much better at 50 gr with very little recoil. Even at my hunting charge of 100 gr the recoil is fairly light. That particular rifle handles the heavy loading very nicely as do most of the truer Hawkin designs. Their weight & stock design was built for it. You're absolutely correct in saying a front stuffer's ability to handle & be loaded with various charges makes more versitile for the beginning shooter. Your later comment about a young teen toting a 9 lb rifle then becomes the primary objection. With the heavier calibers, comes a heavier barrel. True, I've seen a .50 bore in a 13/16" barrel, but that's AWFULLY thin & it's a custom made barrel. I recently scored a young teen through our rifle course at our Rondy. He was toting what looked like a Tradition or CVA .50 that was just too much rifle for him. He battled with that heavy piece all the way. It was so heavy for him, he had to swing it up into position then struggle to hold it. When he'd tire a bit, he's switch fron shooting left handed to right handed & vice versa. To make matters worse, his dad had given him the wrong size ball & by the time he had it started in the muzzle, it was no longer a round ball, but a "wadcutter". Definitely a bad scene! This is the type thing that will discourage a youngster & is exactly what we're hoping to avoid. I'll give this young man credit -- he finished the 20 shot course & even managed to hit 3 targets. He did better than my granddaughters did -- they were using the modified Pedersoli .45 my wife