From: owner-kraftwerk-digest@lists.xmission.com (kraftwerk-digest) To: kraftwerk-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #41 Reply-To: kraftwerk-digest Sender: owner-kraftwerk-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-kraftwerk-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes kraftwerk-digest Wednesday, January 28 1998 Volume 02 : Number 041 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:26:31 -0800 From: "ROBOT" Subject: Fw: (kw) Kraftwerk Bashing? > From: Greg Heil > > > (FROESE) "Kraftwerk did a lot of damage to the philosophy of electronic > > music...Kraftwerk's music made it hard for us to do our work. There > > were three or four years in the mid-Eighties when it was difficult for > > people to understand that robotic sounds weren't the only music you > > could make with computers." > > It seems to indicate the commercial sucess and influence of the Kraftwerk > sound. Greg H. I'd say it indicates jealousy. ;] ROBOWINKY Not that there's anything wrong with T.Dream, but, come ON, "damage to the philosophy of electronic music"? Get REAL! Each Artist has his/her own individual concept and philosophy of what his/her Art or Music is and how it should be presented. KW and TD have different concepts of Electronic Music, that's all. It's up to the individual listener's taste as to which concept and presentation is prefered. Oh, shit- My last post DID show up 3 times! Jeez, I'm sorry I cluttered up everyone's Email. I thought my message wasn't received at all. I re-sent it a few hours later and it still didn't show up, so, I sent it a 3rd time. MY mistake, NOT the Server. -(this time.)- *grrr* ROBOT@humboldt1.com http://www.humboldt1.com/~robot/ ROBOT's Silly Sektor of CyberSpace +^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+ =K R A F T W E R K=K R A F T W E R K=K R A F T W E R K= +^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:01:12 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=E4der_Eric?= Subject: (kw) What's happenin' Hi all ! I'm receiving postings from the list that are up to 10 days old, and some postings arrive several times over a period of up to 3 days. Nope, I'm not thinking of you Robot. I know why your latest posting have showed up three times, but this have happend to a lot of other postings from the list aswell. Am I the only one with this fenomena or are there others who have the same experience? This only happends with postings from the Kraftwerk mailing list. The company I work for have had some problems with their mail server, but they claim that those problems only concerned sending and not receiving. (b t w, have you gotten my latest posting John?). Regards Eric # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:42:27 +0000 From: Mark Reed Subject: Re: (kw) Bartos / Sumner >Of course, I was totally unprepared for this, and >couldn't get the damn tape in the machine in time to catch it. All I >remember is Bernard walking into his small studio, and introducing Karl, who >was sitting at a keyboard, playing something. > >Anybody have any more info on this, or even a recording? Yes I do, but I must admit, Karl's apperance was fleeting at best, only sitting in the corner playing keyboards with Electronic as they rehearsed and wrote a track called "A New Religion" (from the Forbidden City single). I have a recording, but unfortunately cannot copy it. Sorry everyone! Now who thinks "The Mix" could've benefited from having "Tour de France" and "The Telephone Call" on it..? - -- Mark Reed # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:35:41 +0100 From: Erik Knain Subject: (kw) Ultra Rare Trax I have seen the Kraftwerk CD called "Ultra Rare Trax" announced. I would appreciate if someone could provide information/ songtitles about it. I presume it is a bootleg, is it live recordings? Is the sound quality satisfying? >Hi all ! > >I'm receiving postings from the list that are up to 10 days old, and >some postings arrive several times over a period of up to 3 days. Nope, >I'm not thinking of you Robot. I know why your latest posting have >showed up three times, but this have happend to a lot of other postings >from the list aswell. >Am I the only one with this fenomena or are there others who have the >same experience? This only happends with postings from the Kraftwerk >mailing list. This has happened to me to. Regards, Erik # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:38:14 -0700 From: "Greg Heil" Subject: (kw) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:32:48 -0700 another member found this quote. i can't imagine this really being true. maybe some of you who have been to concerts can straghten this out a bit. photos or descriptions could be helpful! maybe they'll tour! MUSIC, COMPUTERS & SOFTWARE 11/88 {TEXT} "During their brief first ---- and probably last ---- American tour in summer 1982, Kraftwerk dazzled and delighted American audiences with a stage set worthy of Walter Pidgeon in "Forbidden Planet." Unfortunately, you didn't need a Ph.D. in electrical engineering to know that a lot of the junk onstage was just props. "Tangerine Dream's facades is not quite as false.....all of their equipment at their three computer music stations is real and in use during the performance..." # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 02:08:32 -0700 (MST) From: Ra Subject: Re: (kw) What's happenin' On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=E4der_Eric?= wrote: > I'm receiving postings from the list that are up to 10 days old, and > some postings arrive several times over a period of up to 3 days. Nope, > I'm not thinking of you Robot. I know why your latest posting have > showed up three times, but this have happend to a lot of other postings > from the list aswell. > Am I the only one with this fenomena or are there others who have the > same experience? This only happends with postings from the Kraftwerk > mailing list. This happens to me too, but not all the time. I sometimes see messages delayed 3 to 7 days. /* Soleil "Ra" Lapierre www.cuug.ab.ca/~lapierrs * * "The human race believes in not taking its problems seriously * enough to solve them." - Celia Green */ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:37:46 -0000 From: "Jules Seifert" Subject: Re: (kw) Bartos / Sumner > >Now who thinks "The Mix" could've benefited from having "Tour de France" >and "The Telephone Call" on it..? > Well, I for one think the mix could have benefited from not being released ;-) Jules # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 02:05:22 -0800 From: William Talley Subject: Re: (kw) Bartos / Sumner I agree with you Jules, the mix isn't what it's all cracked up to be. Part of the reason I really love K is because they combine a very mechanical, analogue and human aspect in their sound. It's almost biological because of it's subtle imperfections and shifts. That's why I can still listen to Radioactivity and hear things that I hadn't heard before. It's like school every time I listen, but the mix I learn nothing from. It's so stagnant and has that constant ZYX emotionless beat. Not a warm, honest attempt - really distanced and exacting. Perhaps they were getting tired of people expecting perfection in the form of laborously created biological music that they slapped everyone in the face with a very cold and non-Kraftwerkian album. Or, maybe they wanted to really test out their new digital equipment, but didn't know how to make it "live" like their older synths and stuff... Who knows the real reasons. I too regret the creation of The Mix and would have much rather settled with recordings of their cooler re-werked versions of old live performances. What was Hutter thinking about when he decided The Mix had Kraftwerk written on it? I'll bet they were sold on digital and heard a possible remake of Radioactivity and Autobahn would settle well and thought the rest of the album would "fall into place". This doesn't sound as calculated as Ralf, but maybe that's the way it happened. The newer material is trying to bring the feel of living sound back, but I have yet to hear and understand where Kraftwerk are trying to go with it. Bill # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:20:29 +0000 From: Richard Poolton Subject: (kw) The Mix-Up??!! Now who thinks "The Mix" could've benefited from having "Tour de France" >and "The Telephone Call" on it..? > Well, I for one think the mix could have benefited from not being released ;-) Jules >>> Now now Jules, at least it bought us that awesome reworking of Radioactivity. Rich # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:49:05 +0500 From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: (kw) What's happenin' On 28-Jan-98, Sch=E4der Eric wrote: >Hi all ! >I'm receiving postings from the list that are up to 10 days old, and >some postings arrive several times over a period of up to 3 days. = The same thing has been happening to me-- I've been getting postings 3 or= 4 times and seeing replies to messages that I haven't seen yet. And there s= eems to be very little mail of any kind coming through lately-not just from th= is list. Maybe it's a general Internet problem...? (The search engines seem slower as well). - -- = Chris Gross cgross@erols.com or cgross@harris-pub.com UTILITY GALLERY, Sandy Becker's Page: www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/1281 # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:07:33 -0000 From: "Jules Seifert" Subject: Re: (kw) Bartos / Sumner > I agree with you Jules, the mix isn't what it's all cracked up to be. Part of >the reason I really love K is because they combine a very mechanical, analogue and >human aspect in their sound. > Well, there's one to put in my diary:- Wed 28th Jan 1998 - Hurrah, somebody agrees with me! Jules # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:38:14 -0000 From: "Craig Land" Subject: Re: (kw) Bartos / Sumner >> I agree with you Jules, the mix isn't what it's all cracked up to be. >Part of >>the reason I really love K is because they combine a very mechanical, >analogue and >>human aspect in their sound. >> >Well, there's one to put in my diary:- > >Wed 28th Jan 1998 - Hurrah, somebody agrees with me! Public Announcement: Two KW list members agreed today, Wednesday 28 January 1998, whilst discussing negative issues about the famous German band Kraftwerk. Does this mean the end of life as we know it,.............will the geeks of yesterday become the philosophers of tomorrow? Does Klaus have every KW release ever? Will Jules, Rich and Craig ever meet? Can we expect a new KW LP this year?,.......now that is ridiculous!!!!!!! Craig. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:22:45 EST From: tweibrecht@juno.com (thomas m weibrecht) Subject: (kw) Re: Award On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:57:58 -0800 **************** writes: > . TD have been prolific, however, = >their output has been shit. Contrast this with Kraftwerk, who've been >= >very selective in what they've released. It is Kraftwerk who have = >developed electronic music in the most creative way possible. TD have >= >repackaged the same rubbish countless times. my my...another insightful commentary by mr. mode...the usual buzz words: "shit output" ..."creative kraftwerk"..."repackaged rubbish"...all sounds really perceptive, but is backed up by what? zippo...they musta had u in mind when they coined the phrase ignorance is bliss... >If you've joined this list to shovel shit don't expect many friends. I >= >wouldn't turn up on the TD list and rubbish their pathetic albums. > why dont you? u might learn something.... tom w np: sons of silence - silence fm _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:05:58 -0000 From: "Jules Seifert" Subject: Re: (kw) The Mix-Up??!! > >>>> Now now Jules, at least it bought us that awesome reworking of Radioactivity. >Rich > Yes indeed! A red rose in a VAT of shit! ;-) Julsey # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:25:18 -0400 From: "Eduardo H. Q. AVELLAR" Subject: (kw) Da bootleg report part 3 - KW "Tribal Gathering" Hi... I just could get the bootleg " KRAFTWERK - TRIBAL GATHERING" - very well done, really don't look like a boot! It's a 1CD, with [Schneider's?] Robot on the front cover, black/yellow, moving very 'fast'. back cover: photo from the show, the 4 guys under the image screens, klingkling stuff, & the audience bellow. written: "Recorded live at the Tribal Gathering - Luton England 05 24 97" DANCING HORSE - DH-010 - NOT FOR SALE - PROMOTIONAL COPY... Tracklist: 1. Numbers 2. Computerworld 3. Radioactivity 4. Transeurope Express 5. Pocket Calculator 6. The Robots [ and not indicated on the CD tracklist - 7. Robotnik?] Well, I was very happy when I got this CD. When I came home, I put on the player and started listening... Good audio quality, but not so good stereo image... OK, no problema... When the Robovoice started to introduce the show, I though... "ohh... this is sounding different... "... Ok, it's nice when things sound different from show to show... When the numbers rythm started, it was sounding really slow... ok again, I though... But when Huetter started singing in computerworld... Just when he started singing I could see that... tracks 1 and 2 are slower than should be (it was nicely recorded, but played at the wrong speed!!!) and that made me remember of reading here on the list that someone told about the BBC (?) radio transmission of this concert with such error... so I understand !!! THIS CD was taken from that Radio broadcast and do not feature the complete show... the first two tracks are at wrong speed (slower and more bass) [sorry for my alien english], but the rest is ok... price paid here in Brazil: US$ 40... (middle to high priced) is it possible to get another one from this????? -> NO!! Why? Because it was sold to me by [an almost 'friend'], the owner of a record shop I know from a long time... when he was travelling (in honeymoon!) in Spain/Italy/France some days ago, he bought this one for me - - but I don't know where... He surely paid less, like US$ 20 or 25, but no less than that... That's life! keep tunned for the next Da bootleg report (4), featuring the [old?] bootleg "KRAFTWERK - WERK". bye for now... P.S.: I've got in my hands the japanese CD " '72 LIVE! NEU! in Duesseldorf - - 6 may " Captain Trip CTCD045... And I don't want it - if anybody would like to exchange it with me for KW bootlegs, please contact me privately at < avellar@softhome.net >. THANX!!! Eduardo H. Q. AVELLAR Composition, arrangement and musical production. mailto:avellar@softhome.net Sao Paulo/SP - BRAZIL. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:32:35 +0800 From: "Xav" Subject: Re: (kw) What's happenin' > From: Sch=E4der Eric > Am I the only one with this fenomena or are there others who have the > same experience? This only happends with postings from the Kraftwerk > mailing list. I do have the same experience, but only on the kw mailing list ! xavier sck8914@singnet.com.sg # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:46:51 -0800 From: "ROBOT" Subject: Fw: (kw) What's happenin' > >I'm receiving postings from the list that are up to 10 days old, and > >some postings arrive several times over a period of up to 3 days. Yeah- dammitt, I know _I_ screwed up and sent ONE of my messages 3 times, but, a bunch of OTHER messages -(from myself and others)- also came in 2-3 times. Weird. On a lighter note: > From: Eduardo H. Q. AVELLAR >> I just could get the bootleg " KRAFTWERK - TRIBAL GATHERING" - - very well done, really don't look like a boot! It's a 1CD, with [Schneider's?] Robot on the front cover, black/yellow, moving very 'fast'. >> "Schneider's Robot" -ooh, yeah- I like the sound of that!*HeeHee*! :] ROBOSMILEY ROBOT@humboldt1.com -(Florian's LoveDroid)- http://www.humboldt1.com/~robot/ ROBOT's Silly Sektor of CyberSpace +^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+ =K R A F T W E R K=K R A F T W E R K=K R A F T W E R K= +^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:06:48 -0800 From: wtalley Subject: Re: (kw) RE: Award > Elias, Ok, I guess this is a "ligitimate" type of question, but assuming that one group is more creative than the other is really subjective. I feel that Kraftwerk have stayed completely true to their style. They have created music that is easily identifiable as theirs. Tangerine Dream (I do enjoy them as well) have varied their "style" that I'm unsure when I listen to a piece whether they did it or one of thousands of other artists that can emulate them produced it. This is not a "dis" on TD (Phaedra is one of my top ten favorite CD's), but for me it really says volumes about how remarkable each groups style truely is... For a while, I wasn't sure if I was listening to Tangerine Dream or Patrick O'Hearn. Oh, and "Rockoon" or whatever that blasted title is made me completely turn away from TD for a long time, whereas K have never produced a piece that I absolutely detest. Computer World has not been surpassed yet in my opinion. No group has made a more complete album. I enjoy TD, but K are my true love.Bill > > > > > > Elias Granillo, Jr. wrote: > > > > > For those unaware: in 1992, Kraftwerk received an award for "over a decade > > > of contributions to synthesizer music." I have but two questions: > > > > > > 1) Who was the organization who awarded this? > > > 2) Why have Tangerine Dream never been awarded in kind, and why on earth > > > would Kraftwerk receive this before they? Kraftwerk are one-tenth as > > > prolific, and one-one-thousandth as creative. > > > > > > No flames, please. This is just a legitimate inquiry of Kraftwerk fans, > > > open to critical discussion. Put away your asbestos suits and > > > flamethrowers. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:25:39 +0100 (NFT) From: Klaus Zaepke Subject: (kw) Some excerpts from the Tangerine Dream mailing list It may be of interest that the current Tangerine Dream debate here is also discussed on the Tangerine Dream mailing list. Here are a few excerpts from this debate: ======== Quotes from tadream@cs.uwp.edu (tadream mailing list) ======= What I notice from the Kraftwerk people is the total non-understanding that TD evolves and changes--I guess they listen to a few albums and consider all of TD as represented on a few albums. Yet, many would not disagree if I made the comment that Kraftwerk over fewer than 5 albums is a good representation of the group in itself. And upon hearing two of those albums, a person will know what Kraftwerk is all about.. *and* what Kraftwerk will ever be.. they are two different groups.. very distant! ====================================================================== > It is Kraftwerk who have developed electronic music in the most > creative way possible. TD have repackaged the same rubbish countless > times. If what the KW person means by "the most creative way possible" is focusing exclusively on relations between technology and society, redoing the same old tunes countless times in new styles (think TD's got a problem with Dream Mixes?), and making dubious promises about new material that is pushed back year after year, then they're right. With a comment like this, I'd have to agree that most KW fans don't understand TD very well. Although I do count myself as a KW fan, I got off the KW list because of ill-concieved and overbearing statements like these which I found were all too common there; they seem to be hung up on KW as major artistes (said with faux flair). ========================================================================= To compare a very active group (TD) and a relatively inactive one (Kraftwerk, not a single release since 1991), the discussion seems not of much value, given that the only common points are 1) they are both German and 2) they are both synth music. No much else in common. In fact, if one compares TD's 3 major product lines: studio work, live/tour material and soundtrack work (released + unreleased, the latter even the most hardcore fan(s) hasn't listened to) with those of Kraftwerk, it will become very obvious that TD is the most prolific of all (except maybe Klaus Schulze or Roedelius/Cluster or maybe Vangelis), Kraftwerk has done a lot less and no more meaningful to discuss any more. If a discussion/comparison is ever made involving Kraftwerk, the other artist under discussion should be MICHAEL ROTHER, since 1) Michael was also on the earliest Kraftwerk line-up; 2) Michael's few releases of solo material, in terms of amount, is similar to Kraftwerk; 3) both played simple synth music (in terms of song structure; 4) Michael's music is more 'warm music', more on the human side, Kraftwerk, in contrast, is more 'cold music', more on the machine side. ========================================================================= Kraftwerk gave their music an intellectual context. They didn't hide the fact that it was cold and machine-made; in fact, they exploited that connection (wheras TD has always insisted that they were injecting humanity into the machine). Not only did Kraftwerk use synths, but they explored public fascination and fear of the same technology that they were using. In a way, the themes explored in 'Computer World' are even more relevant today. But at the same time, while people may still feel somewhat threatened by technology, we've also had to accept it as a necessary part of our lives. No longer are they big and clunky with glowing green VDTs; quite obviously foreign and intimidating. The computer is our friend, and necessary for a prosperous career in the nasty 90s. Scare-mongering about computer control, and claiming that our very lives are becoming robotic (as Kraftwerk did) is now a heresy. Kraftwerk seized the moment when computers were in their ascedency, and made the most of it. But the moment passed, and once that pose got old, they had nowhere to go, musically or intellectually. TD, it seems to me, is taking the other tactic. They accept the fact that technology is here, but their music is not *about* the technology. The computers are just another new tool for them, just as acrylic paints were the latest tool for artists a few decades ago. They simultaneously adapt to technology's retrictions while at the same time they bend it to their will. It is a attitude that has served them well, leading as it has to a long-lasting career. ======================================================================== I think it's important since Kraftwerk has been getting so much of the recognition.. and it was my thinking that this whole computerized sound that they employed and copied by other artists eventually got massively rejected (what was rejected was the copiers stuff) bythe culture... and thus like what happened to Disco with rock happened in a lesser way with the then 80ish wave with the Alternative/Grunge stuff of the 90's. TD has evolved, Kraftwerk rides on their past.. I like Kraftwerk a whole lot.. from the mid to late 70ies stuff was great.. But Edgar has a point... ========================================================================= Edgar has a point though, and even though I enjoy the Kraftwerk stuff--I can see why the robot paradigm is still hanging tough. Its commercial success also indicates a destined commercial crash. Now, as I see it, Kraftwerk is decidedly taken the current dance craze, the current unreleased stuff from a 97 concert tour indicate the same old robots with the ole Kling Klang stuff to boot. ======================================================================== well, let's see i am a kraftwerk fan ( faves: RALF AND FLORIAN & TRANS-EUROPE EXP. ), but just because they used to be a big revenue generator does not make them of any more value than madonna. i believe we are all discussing, in our own ways, the ineffable qualities the music seems to have for us. and for me, over the last seventeen years tangerine dream has provided more emotional and intellectual gratification than kraftwerk. this does not mean i do not respect kraftwerk's synthesiis of image, marketing, and music ( and believe me, a boatload of people noticed ), but at the end of the day the music is, for me, the most important thing. and judging by my responses to both bands, tangerine dream is the more musiclly satisfying. ============ End of quotes ============================================= # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:49:10 -0800 From: "willfred" Subject: (kw) re: tdream postings hey, thanks klaus z. for posting my comments about kraftwerk ( last post on list ). you forgot to post the comment that i made about my favorite kraftwerk albums ( Ralf and Florian, Trans-Europe Express ). i think one can really love BOTH bands. it seems to me that there are people on both mailing lists who are bored and want some sort of flame war. no thanks. i like both groups and mailing lists. huggums, bill2. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:17:32 +0100 (NFT) From: Klaus Zaepke Subject: Re: (kw) re: tdream postings > you forgot to post the comment that i made about my favorite > kraftwerk albums ( Ralf and Florian, Trans-Europe Express ). I've tried not to put anything out of context, and I'm sure that your comment about your favourite Kraftwerk albums *was* included. But it is of course true that my previous mail contained just some short excerpts from the whole debate, so if anyone is interested in the full thread, he/she can get it from the usual sources, like http://www.reference.com, for example. Klaus Zaepke # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:49:38 EST From: DepecheCBI Subject: (kw) Kraftwerk & Tangerine Dream Well, Kraftwerk and TD really are different groups, they produce(d) diffe= rent=0Aelctronic music; I like both groups, but the following statement i= s=0Aridiculous:=0A=0A> (FROESE) "Kraftwerk did a lot of damage to the phi= losophy of electronic=0A> music...Kraftwerk's music made it hard for us t= o do our work. There were=0A> three or four years in the mid-Eighties whe= n it was difficult for people to=0A> understand that robotic sounds weren= 't the only music you could make with=0A> computers." =0A=0AI would say, = Froese himself "did a lot of damage to the philosophy of=0Aelectronic mus= ic": just listen to TD=B4s output during the (late) 80s and 90s;TD=0Alost= their spirit. [perhaps Kraftwerk have the same problem now?]=0AI think, = it=B4s really a problem for those "dinosaurs" to be innovative these=0Ada= ys, because many people are able to produce electronic sounds now.=0ABut = Kraftwerk seem to be what they were, whereas TD mutated into a bloody "Ne= w=0AAge"-band, producing boring "music" (listening to them often is a tor= ture now=0A- when Froese jr. plays his guitar, yuck!). Just compare "Tour= nado" with=0A"Ricochet" !!! (another pont: compare Kraftwerk-concerts wit= h TD-concerts=0Atoday!)=0AI think, the ORB and other (techno-) trance-pro= jects are the evoulution of=0Awhat TD were in the 70s. =0A=0A=0ACarsten B= olte. Kiel.=0A # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:27:54 +0000 From: Mark Reed Subject: (kw) Tangerine Dream / Kraftwerk >TD have been prolific, however, = >>their output has been shit. Well, why are Kraftwerk better in my opinion than Tangerine Dream? Kraftwerk have not been anywhere near so prolific and consequently, have a generally higher quality control. If TD had only released say 10 albums in 31 years then therefore the overall quality would've been much higher across the period in question. Some could say of course that Kraftwerk are lazy but on the other hand, you could say they know the values of restraint and the dangers of overexposure. Additionally Kraftwerk have more vision in terms of image, world view and lyrical / political standpoint. The two bands have only two things in common, nationality and nature of equipment. In my experience TD's sound is based more on sonic texture over melody - whilst melody has generally been a Kraftwerk strong point along with a uniquely definable sound. Kraftwerk also have more showmanship and, in fact using props, such as the calculators etc.. show them to be, in my opinion a group with a stronger and more valid artistic vision, direction, and musical output. There is a danger with flooding the megastores of this world with over 40 albums with such thrilling titles as "Live In Poland", for example.. ALSO: Following the aborted reissue of "The Man Machine" it is now deleted in the UK and has been since June. Does anyone know of any plans for a full reissue of the back catalogue? Apparently Ralf thwarted it as he took offence at the "100 Years Of EMI" booklet to come in the set. and for The Mix, well, it's not fantastic.. but if you disregard Kraftwerk's past track record and see it an introudction or greatest Hits album it really is astoundingly good. More like Music Full Stop.. - -- Mark Reed # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:35:37 -0800 From: **************** Subject: RE: (kw) Some excerpts from the Tangerine Dream mailing list Klaus, I realise that some Kraftwerk fans may also be interested in TD, = although I am not one of them. Please understand I am not criticising = you for posting the TD list material this time, however, I would be = grateful if you don't repeat the exercise. mode.123 # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:31:59 -0800 From: **************** Subject: RE: (kw) Re: Award >my my...another insightful commentary by mr. mode...the usual buzz = words: "shit output" ..."creative kraftwerk"..."repackaged rubbish"...all = sounds really perceptive, but is backed up by what? zippo...they musta had u in mind when they coined the phrase ignorance is bliss...< If you insist on slinging personal abuse in my direction please aim = directly at me. Hitting the list as well as me doesn't do anyone any = favours. OK we have different opinions, however, I've lost count of how = many times I've read that Kraftwerk are the most influential electronic = band of all time. The crisp and creative, progressive and pervasive = output of Kraftwerk at their creative peak contrasts with the pompous = and ponderous, tedious and tiresome output of TD. I can't remember any = credible critic hypothesising that TD have influenced modern music like = Kraftwerk have. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:34:23 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Some excerpts from the Tangerine Dream mailing list **************** wrote: > > Klaus, > > I realise that some Kraftwerk fans may also be interested in TD, although I am not one of them. Please understand I am not criticising you for posting the TD list material this time, however, I would be grateful if you don't repeat the exercise. > > mode.123 Be a good boy, Klaus... jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:46:04 EST From: SR Records Subject: RE: (kw) Re: Award In a message dated 1/28/98 10:13:09 PM, you wrote: <> Actually - I've seen *very* few times when Kraftwerk's name has been mentioned in any electronic music books or encyclopedias........I have, however, seen TD's name mentioned in electronic music history books when speaking about electronics in late 20th century pop music............of course, Yes and Brian Eno are there as well but Kraftwerk is very rarely seen........... I usually find Kraftwerk mentioned in books that deal directly with pop music, but still, TD's name is usually found more often than Kraftwerk's when talking about influential electronic artist even in these books. For the record, I personally like Kraftwerk more than TD but find pleasing items in both bands (TD only up until 1979, unfortunetly......) # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 00:44:59 +0100 From: "Fer" Subject: RE: (kw) Re: Award >>> I can't remember any credible critic hypothesising that TD have influenced modern music like Kraftwerk have. <<< I remember reading at my university this book by Paul Manning, I forgot its title, probably just "Electronic Music" or something like that; anyway it was pretty damn good (imho), and I was very surprised cos Kraftwerk weren't mentioned in it AT ALL. Tangerine Dream and a lot of other bands and composers did appear on it tho. I dunno if this guy is a "credible critic" for ya. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? - --Fer. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #41 ******************************