From: owner-kraftwerk-digest@lists.xmission.com (kraftwerk-digest) To: kraftwerk-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #42 Reply-To: kraftwerk-digest Sender: owner-kraftwerk-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-kraftwerk-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes kraftwerk-digest Thursday, January 29 1998 Volume 02 : Number 042 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:53:03 PST From: "Pete Liethen" Subject: (kw) KW Media Center Update and NEW SERVER! KW Media Center Update and NEW SERVER! The Kraftwerk Media Center has been updated with a preview of The Robots VR Movie, in the same style as Mensch Maschine VR. NEW SERVER! I have moved my web pages, including the Kraftwerk Media Center to a new web server. You can go to The Kraftwerk Media Center by going to http://petenet.dragonfire.net Also drop by my home page at http://petenet.dragonfire.net ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:55:27 -0700 (MST) From: Ra Subject: Re: (kw) Bartos / Sumner On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Jules Seifert wrote: > >Now who thinks "The Mix" could've benefited from having "Tour de France" > >and "The Telephone Call" on it..? > Well, I for one think the mix could have benefited from not being released > ;-) And I for one would benefit greatly from seeing a Mix II. ;) /* Soleil "Ra" Lapierre www.cuug.ab.ca/~lapierrs * * "The human race believes in not taking its problems seriously * enough to solve them." - Celia Green */ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:58:04 -0500 From: muziknut2@juno.com (Adam Schefflan) Subject: Re: (kw) Tangerine Dream / Kraftwerk I think we're comparing apples and oranges again, folks. TD's more "new agey," or contemporary instrumental, while KW is more pop-oriented. I'm a fan of both groups, but KW's the real gods. More people listen to pop-oriented music rather than new age, so it's obvious in this case why KW has been more influential. BTW, TD's "Poland," that live album you mentioned, Mark R., from 1984, is actually a brilliant piece of work. And, anyway, Klaus Schulze's much better than TD. Peace. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 00:31:38 -0800 From: William Talley Subject: Re: (kw) Bartos / Sumner > On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Jules Seifert wrote: > > > >Now who thinks "The Mix" could've benefited from having "Tour de France" > > >and "The Telephone Call" on it..? > > > Well, I for one think the mix could have benefited from not being released > > ;-) > > And I for one would benefit greatly from seeing a Mix II. ;) Here, here!!! Let's see some new stuff! Their driving me CRAZY!! Bill # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:34:36 -0000 From: "Jules Seifert" Subject: Re: (kw) Some excerpts from the Tangerine Dream mailing list > >**************** wrote: >> >> Klaus, >> >> I realise that some Kraftwerk fans may also be interested in TD, although I am not one of them. Please understand I am not criticising you for posting the TD list material this time, however, I would be grateful if you don't repeat the exercise. >> >> mode.123 > > >Be a good boy, Klaus... > I tend to agree with Klaus (ppl take note, it's not a regular occurrence), it is interesting to read the views of those folk on the TD list, considering the background of the two groups and in the light of the comments made by Froese. However, in the interest of equality (if that still exists) I hope he's copying KW mails to the TD list, particularly the recent post by Mark Reed. Jules # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:38:33 -0000 From: "Jules Seifert" Subject: Re: (kw) Re: Award / Credible Critic >I dunno if this guy is a "credible critic" for ya. >Does anyone know what I'm talking about? > Yea, this brings us back to the old debate about what is a critic, and who says what is right or wrong. It would be interesting if we could define what a Credible Critic really is. Jules # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:20:10 +0100 (NFT) From: Klaus Zaepke Subject: (kw) Phrases > I can't remember any credible critic hypothesising that TD have influenced > modern music like Kraftwerk have. A huge collection of quotes from music critics can be found at the official Tangerine Dream WWW site (http://www.tadream.com/tadream/critics.html). The interesting thing is that many phrases on this page are more or less identical to phrases often used by Kraftwerk critics. In fact it could be almost a collection of Kraftwerk press quotes, if some names and album titles are replaced. Maybe this indicates how serious such phrases can be taken in general... ;-) Some examples: "avantgarde rock ensemble", "influenced everything", "remain an unstoppable force on the cutting edge of progressive music", "electronic pioneer and sound avantgardist", "ambitious synthesizer experiments", "pioneers and arguable the most significant of electronic bands", "even techno-gurus pay respect", "world's leading electronic group", "man in control of technology", "intelligent and varied use of synthesizers", "without them, computer techniques like Sequencers and many other things just wouldn't have been invented", "forerunners and longtime innovators of the electronic aspect of music", "They have always investigated and used the current state-of-the-art technology". Klaus Zaepke # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:56:07 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Some excerpts from the Tangerine Dream mailing list > >**************** wrote: > >> > >> Klaus, > >> > >> I realise that some Kraftwerk fans may also be interested in TD, although > I am not one of them. Please understand I am not criticising you for posting > the TD list material this time, however, I would be grateful if you don't > repeat the exercise. > >> > >> mode.123 > > > > > > JBV wrote : > >Be a good boy, Klaus... > > Jules Seifert wrote: > > I tend to agree with Klaus (ppl take note, it's not a regular occurrence), He, what makes you think I don't agree with Klaus ? jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:55:41 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Phrases Klaus Zaepke wrote: > = > A huge collection of quotes from music critics can be found at the > official Tangerine Dream WWW site > Some examples: > "without them, computer techniques like Sequencers and > many other things just wouldn't have been invented" Jeez ! Was it written as a contest for the worst bullshit of the year ? BTW, this IS NOT an attack against TD : if the above had been written about KW or any other band, I would also consider it as bullshit. - ------------------- Jules Seifert" wrote : > Yea, this brings us back to the old debate about what is a critic, and = who > says what is right or wrong. It would be interesting if we could define= what > a Credible Critic really is. As for a contribution to this mostly interesting debate, I would say it's easier to define what IS NOT a credible critic (for instance, clich=E9s such as the above sentence about TD, which generaly aren't backed up by any checkable / tangible fact or element of proof). jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:54:11 -0000 From: "Jules Seifert" Subject: Re: (kw) Phrases > Yea, this brings us back to the old debate about what is a critic, and who > says what is right or wrong. It would be interesting if we could define what > a Credible Critic really is. As for a contribution to this mostly interesting debate, I would say it's easier to define what IS NOT a credible critic (for instance, clichés such as the above sentence about TD, which generaly aren't backed up by any checkable / tangible fact or element of proof). > Interesting, it most probably is, but you have missed a fundamental point in that what you seem to be describing is a scientist, not a critic. Surely a critic does not have to base anything on proven fact, merely objective opinion? Jules # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:03:50 -0000 From: "Craig Land" Subject: (kw) Late Comer....! ...well I am here, a bit late, but would like to add something to the TD vs KW debate. It appears to me that what really started this discussion was the comment from the TD band member Herr Froese regarding Kraftwerk's negative effect on the electronic music scene. Well I look at it like this, if some people started to follow and even prefer KW rather than TD it doesn't mean to say that they are better, it's probably just the direction those people wanted to see electronic music taken. Others of course will disagree, they may prefer the ambient sound of TD with their long sonic soundscapes building like a huge fantasy novel. I myself like both, and, many other types of electronic music, Sakamoto, Numan, early Human League, modern Techno and that is what I choose to like. I am not saying that the paths maybe Numan and other artists took are better than anyone else's, it's just that their style strikes a chord for me. Plus I am sure that most of us listen to more than just KW! Depending on the mood we are in, we choose our music style accordingly. Also, the way modern music has developed today has resulted through musicians being influenced by all types of music, even Techno/ambient groups like the Orb of today recognise both TD and KW and the individual qualities each band displayed. There will always be some who say, "Keep this list for Kraftwerk only"! Although this is a KW list, it's good to discuss the bigger picture, afterall hasn't Stockhausen, Numan, Depeche Mode and numerous others been mentioned before in the effort to reinforce KW's development and music?! Craig. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:34:18 EST From: tweibrecht@juno.com (thomas m weibrecht) Subject: Re: (kw) Late Comer....! On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:03:50 -0000 "Craig Land" writes: > >...well I am here, a bit late, but would like to add something to the >TD vs >KW debate. It appears to me that what really started this discussion >was >the comment from the TD band member Herr Froese regarding Kraftwerk's >negative effect on the electronic music scene. > i think what edgar meant was that kw influenced the wrong type of people to become electronic musicians...the beautiful simplicity of a tune like autobahn spawned a whole generation of people that said: "i can do that"...therefore, u got that whole slew of crap that came out in the 80s, which is now unfortunately beginning to repeat itself in the 90s...edgar realized that there is more to being an electronic musician than a tinkerer...one has to be a adept musician first...not kws fault per se, just the wrong interpretation by the hoi polloi... tom w np: haslinger - world without rules _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:34:18 EST From: tweibrecht@juno.com (thomas m weibrecht) Subject: (kw) Re: Award On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:31:59 -0800 **************** writes: > >>my my...another insightful commentary by mr. mode...the usual buzz = >words: >"shit output" ..."creative kraftwerk"..."repackaged rubbish"...all = >sounds >really perceptive, but is backed up by what? zippo...they musta had u >in >mind when they coined the phrase ignorance is bliss...< > >If you insist on slinging personal abuse in my direction please aim = >directly at me. Hitting the list as well as me doesn't do anyone any = >favours. public innanity requires a public response... OK we have different opinions, however, I've lost count of >how = >many times I've read that Kraftwerk are the most influential >electronic = >band of all time. u believe everything you read? The crisp and creative, progressive and pervasive = >output of Kraftwerk at their creative peak contrasts with the pompous >and ponderous, tedious and tiresome output of TD. I can't remember any >credible critic hypothesising that TD have influenced modern music >like = >Kraftwerk have. > pervasive output? u call their meager output pervasive? on what? volkswagen commercials? disco? what u seem to forget is that td is about musicians, not about influence...some of the better (imo) composers and musicians have been part of that group...people who have gone on to be creative in their own right, and not just in the musical arts, but also in multimedia, video and film...in other words, the sum total of the parts of td, overshadow anything kw has done or will ever do...tds influence, recognized or not, is way more pervasive... tom w np: td - electronic orgy _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:34:18 EST From: tweibrecht@juno.com (thomas m weibrecht) Subject: Re: (kw) Some excerpts from the Tangerine Dream mailing list On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:34:36 -0000 "Jules Seifert" writes: > >> >>**************** wrote: >>> >>> Klaus, >>> >>> I realise that some Kraftwerk fans may also be interested in TD, >although >I am not one of them. Please understand I am not criticising you for >posting >the TD list material this time, however, I would be grateful if you >don't >repeat the exercise. >>> >>> mode.123 >> >> >>Be a good boy, Klaus... >> >I tend to agree with Klaus (ppl take note, it's not a regular >occurrence), >it is interesting to read the views of those folk on the TD list, >considering the background of the two groups and in the light of the >comments made by Froese. However, in the interest of equality (if that >still >exists) I hope he's copying KW mails to the TD list, particularly the >recent >post by Mark Reed. > >Jules yes, this is happening.... tom w np: td - electronic orgy _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:38:54 +0000 From: Kevin Busby Subject: (kw) Dots/FAQ/TD At 9:23 am +0000 26/1/98, MARKUS REINEVIK wrote: >The (very interesting ;-] ) question is: >Is his last name Flur (without two dots) or Fl=FCr (with two dots or >"P=FCnktchen" (or whatever the German word might be))? Who didn't read the FAQ, then? The section you need is at http://web.bham.ac.uk/busbykg/kraftwerk/FAQ/members.html#names I'll take this opportunity to mention that I will be updating the FAQ as soon as I can (once I clear some other matters out of my way); this will mostly involve making it more concise (in particular, since old Kraftwerk Digests are no longer archived numerically, the references to them might as well be removed). As always, it should all be ready before the next Kraftwerk album. >:-) At 7:25 pm +0100 28/1/98, Klaus Zaepke wrote: >It may be of interest that the current Tangerine Dream debate here >is also discussed on the Tangerine Dream mailing list. Klaus, please refrain from forwarding rational, mature discussions to this list. You'll confuse us all. :-D It's perhaps (or perhaps not) worth drawing a further comparison between KW and TD: the former don't make any records, but do collaborate with instrument manufacturers; the latter make too many records, all of which seemed to be designed as demo discs for instrument manufacturers. But when they were in their prime (rather in their current incarnation as the Froese family business) IMO they did some fine work, and everyone needs a copy of 'Phaedra'... ;-) K # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:07:18 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Phrases Jules Seifert wrote: > > Interesting, it most probably is, but you have missed a fundamental point in > that what you seem to be describing is a scientist, not a critic. Surely a > critic does not have to base anything on proven fact, merely objective > opinion? > > Jules > Mmmmh... Sorry, but nope. A scientist acts in a different intellectual environment : he jumps to conclusions from reproductible facts (under similar conditions). Actually, the approach is even more complex (hypothesis, experimental test, validation / unvalidation of the hypothesis). In other words, the scientist builds the experimental test that will allow him to validate (or not) the hypothesis he made in the first place. As for a critic of artistic matters (music, movie, litterature...), it's impossible to build any experimental test to validate a hypothesis. Of course, it's possible to interview the artists, and that might bring many clues, but it has nothing to do with scientific experimentation. So, my humble opinion is that a critic must have a large knowledge / cultural background of the field he/she is investigating / reviewing. But the goal is not to just show off with large amounts of irrelevant quotes and references. The goal is merely to use them judiciously in order to progress in the knowledge of the investigated topic. In the case of a german techno-pop band, such elements could be searched in bios of the members, historical / sociological elements from the country in which they grew up, musicologic & historical elements from the music field in which they operate, etc, etc. That's why such statements as (for instance) "the pioneering German electronic artists" that can be found at www.swcp.com/lazlo/Lists/#kraftwerk as an introduction to the present list, or most of the quotes that Klaus found at TD's WWW, are misleading and boring, because they don't resist any simple investigation. Of course, personal opinions and tastes of the critic appear every now and then in what he writes or says, simply through the elements he chooses to back up his statements, or even simply by choosing that specific field of investigation. For instance, if you read the interviews of KW used by Bussy in his book (at least those published in the 70s & 80s in french mags), you'll notice that he skipped several very interesting parts. IMO that shows what he's mainly interested in... and what he's interested (or not) in proving (or not)... BUT of course, on top of everything, there's the mag in which the critic is writing, whose purpose is different from an encyclopedia. The content of a mag is more "oriented" than an encyclopedia, and has as much to do with trends and fashions than with objective facts... Every mag has a "line of opinions" in order to keep (and eventually expand) its audience, and every crew member is supposed to "follow" more or less that line... But I think that REALLY talented critics (Nick Kent, Lester Bangs...) shape the general opinion of their mags, and even trends among the audience... But that's another story... - ------------ And BTW, what is "objective opinion" ? Sounds like an oxymoron to me... Cheers, jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:00:14 +0100 From: "Charlie Crash" <909@iname.com> Subject: (kw) KW fan / TD fan Hi As I've got both tapes of TD & KW in my car I'd thought I'd mention that I think they've both got the same amount of "spine-peaks" in their period (allthough TD's got a lot more nothingness) and the song of TD I am most fond of is the "Song of the whales, part one & two" from the album "Underwater Sunlight". That is a real fuzzy warm chill-out candy music with an accelerating end (its 19 min long, and works a bit like the Bolero) to make a background when your making love...I think I've made it to that song with 5 different girls and i DONT think any of these wonderful women would have appreciated "WE ARE THE ROBOTS - BEEEEP BEEP BEEP BEEEEP..." when they're hot'n juicy, would you? Just a thought from real life... ///CC # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:23:34 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" Subject: Re: (kw) Phrases > That's why such statements as (for instance) "the pioneering German > electronic artists" that can be found at > www.swcp.com/lazlo/Lists/#kraftwerk > as an introduction to the present list, or most of the quotes that > Klaus found at TD's WWW, are misleading and boring, because they don't > resist any simple investigation. I'm sorry that my use of this simple four-word descriptive phrase on a web page does not live up to your exacting intellectual standards. Just out of curiosity's sake, is your quibble with "pioneering", "artists", "electronic", or "German"? Perhaps when you're done tilting at windmills in this thread you can come up with an alternative that you find less misleading and/or more directly engaging to you personally. - -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:14:21 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Re: Award thomas m weibrecht wrote: > > what u seem to forget is that td is about musicians, not about > influence...some of the better (imo) composers and musicians have been > part of that group...people who have gone on to be creative in their own > right, and not just in the musical arts, but also in multimedia, video > and film... Yes, like Schnitzler who was kicked out by Froese (as well as a few others AFAIR, according to J. Cope's book on Krautrock)... jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:24:53 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Dots/FAQ/TD Kevin Busby wrote: > > and everyone needs a copy of 'Phaedra'... ;-) > > K Sure, ambient freesbie is great ! jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:24:46 +0100 From: "Charlie Crash" <909@iname.com> Subject: SV: (kw) Dots/FAQ/TD ...lying on the floor, laughing my ass off... :-)))) > >Kevin Busby wrote: > > and everyone needs a copy of 'Phaedra'... ;-) > > K > Sure, ambient freesbie is great ! jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:50:22 -0000 From: "Jules Seifert" Subject: Re: (kw) Phrases jbv:--- > >Mmmmh... Sorry, but nope. A scientist acts in a different intellectual >environment : he jumps to conclusions from reproductible facts (under >similar conditions). Actually, the approach is even more complex >(hypothesis, experimental test, validation / unvalidation of the >hypothesis). In other words, the scientist builds the experimental >test that will allow him to validate (or not) the hypothesis he made >in the first place. > Sounds kinda like the kind of critic you were describing before to me....and also music can be also seen as an empirical technique too. > >And BTW, what is "objective opinion" ? Sounds like an oxymoron to me... > Are you implying that critics cannot be objective without being oxymoron's? hehehe, s'a bit harsh no? Jules # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:06:20 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Late Comer....! Craig Land wrote: > > Although this is a KW list, it's good to discuss the bigger picture, Craig, I love you !!! jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:31:32 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Phrases Jules Seifert wrote: > > Sounds kinda like the kind of critic you were describing before to me.... If you got that feeling, it's probably due to my poor english. In both cases I used the word "facts", but it takes a different meaning in each context. As I mentioned in my second post, when a scientist backs up a theory with facts, it MUST be reproductible facts. Furthermore, when reproducing the experiment, one must be able to apply variations on one parameter at a time, while all the rest remains exactly the same. For instance, let's say that a critic can't wake up in the morning (yes, I know, most of them wake up in the middle of the afternoon ;-) ) and say : "OK, today let's see what The MIX would sound like if Bartos and Flur hadn't left the band". Of course, he can make suppositions, he can interview both Bartos and Flur and investigates the reasons behind their departures, etc. BUT he CAN'T change history, and he CAN'T know FOR SURE what The MIX would have sounded like with B & F still in the band, he CAN'T get a copy of The MIX with both of them on it. > and also music can be also seen as an empirical technique too. Sure. But I'm afraid I don't see the relationship between that statement and the rest of the discussion... > > > >And BTW, what is "objective opinion" ? Sounds like an oxymoron to me... > > > Are you implying that critics cannot be objective without being oxymoron's? > hehehe, s'a bit harsh no? No, No, I was just discussing the combination of these two words "objective opinion". It sounded like an oxymoron to me for, at first glance, it seems that everything that deals with opinions is strictly subjective... jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:46:07 -0500 From: Fred_Harding@idx.com Subject: (kw) kraftwerk vs tangerine dream normally, i don't bother getting involved in internet discussions of taste. however, here's my take on the whole tg vs kw discussion. if it is in fact true that kraftwerk rarely get mentioned in "historical retrospectives" regarding electronic music - (and, if this is actually true, i'd be quite shocked), but, if it is true, i'd guess it's more due to snobbery than anything else. without a doubt, kraftwerk (if they didn't actually invent, they were very close) to inventing synth dance music. probably not the application for the instrument(s) that the more "serious" composers were hoping for, judging from their sonic output alone. oddly, as someone else mentioned, even within this dance music, the melody is VERY strong. most of today's techno practitioners seem to ignore melody, it's a shame. many of the more "artistic" folks in the 70's didn't seem to have much of a use for melody either. oddly, most of tangerine dreams' older stuff sounds just that: old. kraftwerk's, on the other hand, (with perhaps the exception of radio activity, which doesn't sound OLD so much as different). sounds like it could be brand new. it's not just the "futuristic" underpinnings that make it so. kraftwerk created something NEW. they didn't start off from a very pink floydish sound (like td) - they (even on radio activity, and autobahn) broke new ground. the fact that kraftwerk spawned a still popular form of music probably rubs the other artists the wrong way as well. plus the stigma of actually doing something that's POPULAR - which is code for "it can't be good". it reminds me of the people that dismiss the beach boys as pop candy - they don't realize that there's an incredable amount of sophistication in the music. this is even more true with a more minimal sound, such as kraftwerk's. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:58:07 -0500 From: Roland Metzger Subject: (kw) German Magazine "Rock & Pop Sammlung" features KW - 10 pages Hi to all German readers out there The above magazine features KW on the title and has a 10 page article on the history of KW up until the ZKM concert with pics and discography and= stuff. Didn't read it yet but the writer Gunther Poecker does thank Klaus= Zaepke, Ian Calder and Frank Koeberlein for Information... so I guess the= re shouldn't be any errors in it! So go out and buy it it should be available in DE, A, CH, NL, BE and Lux.= Price is DEM 10. Cheers Roland PS: I wanted to post this beginning January but I forgot it in my outbox....Sorry, but the new issue of above magazine is now already released... # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:02:06 -0800 From: "ROBOT" Subject: Re: (kw) KW fan / TD fan > From: Charlie Crash <909@iname.com> >> TD's "Song of the whales, part one & two" from the album "Underwater Sunlight". -(SNIP)- I think I've made it to that song with 5 different girls and i DONT think any of these wonderful women would have appreciated "WE ARE THE ROBOTS - BEEEEP BEEP BEEP BEEEEP..." when they're hot'n juicy, would you? << Well, _I_ certainly would!!*snicker*!! You just haven't met the right gal yet. Have you ever done it with a LoveDroid? Try me! Die ROBOTER is my favorite Auditory Aphrodesiac. It's a Total Turn-On! Nothing makes me hotter & juicier than KRAFTWERK!*sigh*! -(And AUTOBAHN is WAY better than "Bolero"!)- I just wish I could find a MAN.MACHINE who could keep up with me- in PerfeKt rhythm!*Boika-Boink*! Oh, YESS! ;] ROBOWINKY - -Sorry folks, that was TOO silly for me to resist. *HeeHee* Thanks for cheering me up, Charlie Crash! ps: Whoa! 93 Emails overnight?!! And 18 more just came IN??! Oh. I just subscribed to a couple of STAR TREK Mail Lists yesterday. No wonder! I'm also on the "Industrial" Mail List , but, it doesn't get much traffic. -(It doesn't get Flames, either- and that's good!)- 'Stupid power failure last night- *ARGH*- no permanent damage to the Computer, Thank God. Seriously, I hope everyone is doing okay, what with all this NASTY weather all over the Planet- it's miserable! Take care and keep your circuits dry. ROBOT@humboldt1.com http://www.humboldt1.com/~robot/ ROBOT's Silly Sektor of CyberSpace +^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+ =K R A F T W E R K=K R A F T W E R K=K R A F T W E R K= +^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:06:06 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Phrases Lazlo Nibble wrote: > > > That's why such statements as (for instance) "the pioneering German > > electronic artists" that can be found at > > www.swcp.com/lazlo/Lists/#kraftwerk > > as an introduction to the present list, or most of the quotes that > > Klaus found at TD's WWW, are misleading and boring, because they don't > > resist any simple investigation. > > I'm sorry that my use of this simple four-word descriptive phrase on a web > page does not live up to your exacting intellectual standards. Sorry for hurting your feelings, Lazlo... BTW, you shouldn't take everything that comes from me so personally, I was discussing only a statement, not the nice guy behind it, the nice guy who provides us with this great list where we can all exercise our intellectual skills and have so much fun flaming each other. Is it enough ? > Just out of > curiosity's sake, is your quibble with "pioneering", "artists", > "electronic", or "German"? Actually, it's the combination of the four. Of course, they are German and artists. They've been pionneers in some ways, and they mostly deal with electronics. But "pioneering German electronic artists" could apply much better to someone like Stockhausen, for instance. Please don't get me wrong : it has nothing to do with my "intellectual standards". The only thing is that by successive use of unappropriate formulaes, concepts drift slowly, and pretty soon we find ourselves downloading dozens of messages discussing "electronic music", but with examples that never go beyond KW, TD, Schulze, DM, HL or G. Numan. And that's quite frustrating - and I know I'm not the only one on this list to think that way ! And last but not least, to tell the truth, all the crap that Klaus found at TD's WWW illustrates much much better what I meant in my previous post. I only brought this excerpt from the list homepage, so that TD fans won't accuse me of trashing TD only... > > Perhaps when you're done tilting at windmills in this thread you can come up > with an alternative that you find less misleading and/or more directly > engaging to you personally. Well, I don't see why anything on your web pages should be "more directly engaging to me personally". But as you said, if the purpose is only to find a short description for a web page, why go straight polemical and misleading ? I'm sure that everyone will be pleased with something like "the famous German electro-pop quartet". You can even replace "famous" by "mythical", and "quartet" by "Fab Four". But after all, it's your web page. Do whatever you want ! jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:12:30 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) kraftwerk vs tangerine dream Fred_Harding@idx.com wrote: > > many of the more > "artistic" folks in the 70's didn't seem to have much of a use for > melody either. > eh ???? Any example ? jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:18:14 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) KW fan / TD fan Charlie Crash wrote : >> > I think I've made it to that song with 5 different > girls and i DONT think any of these wonderful women would have > appreciated "WE ARE THE ROBOTS - BEEEEP BEEP BEEP BEEEEP..." Believe it or not, in the late 70s / early 80s (when I was still young and attractive) I had a girlfriend who was litterally turned on by TEE and "Mini Calculateur". Actually, it was Ralf's light german accent when he was pronouncing french words that played the trick... After all, she was just a fish named Wanda... jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #42 ******************************