From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #803 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, February 28 2002 Volume 03 : Number 803 In this issue: - gamelan breaks? Re: another burning question balls out coleman Previte "Miro" Re: another burning question Re: another burning question Re: LA question minilp RE: minilp zorn piece to be played at Eastman School of Music RE: minilp Re: Game Theory Re: Game Theory Re: gamelan breaks? new fella' thankyou's/ New Model Army gamelan Bud Powell, Kenny Millions articles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:49:37 -0500 From: "Andrew" Subject: gamelan breaks? Ok.....so I'm really digging the sound of the Gamelan, and i'm loving that track on Filmworks X that's all Gamelan. What are some discs of Gamelan music that I should check out? andrew - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:02:03 -0600 From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: another burning question mwisckol@ocregister.com asked: >what i really want to know: is it true that ornette had himself catstrated >in the mid-60s so that sexual urges would no longer distract him from his >art? i mean, did complain a couple times about that distraction in earlier >interviews and he does have a bit of a squeak in his voice, just like my >grandfather got after having a cancer-related operation of that type >(which, btw, he reported made him feel much better). According to an interview in Ornette: Made in America, Shirley Clarke's movie about Ornette Coleman, he asked a doctor to castrate him, but the doctor convinced him that getting circumcised would be enough. - -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, Texas 76147 USA 817 377-2983 herb@eskimo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:12:44 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: balls out coleman i'm not going to claim any knowledge of ornette's ejaculate (free jizz?), but in an incredibly odd, terribly 80s and not particularly good documentary called 'made in america' he does, as i recall, say that he was castrated in order to concentrate more fully on music. this is the same film that shows him on an exercise bike in an orange jumpsuit against a black screen, talking about how he will travel in space before he dies. or something. point being, i don't know what he or shirley clarke were on (don't miss the endless flashing neon triangles over people's faces), but just because he said it don't convince me it's true. see it, not it's good, but because you won't believe how stangefuckingawfulweird it is. i have a headache. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:20:41 -0500 From: "Alan Kayser" Subject: Previte "Miro" Whit Schobein wrote "2. I picked up Bobby Previte's '23 constellations...' tuesday, and have been listening to it every day since. I for one think he hit the nail on the head - the musical paintings composed by previte and performed so well by the ensemble definitely make me think of miro's constellations series .not that I would have made that association without the full-color reproductions of the paintings included in the booklet, but once you have them to look at, one can feel where the inspiration for each musical piece came from. The music is often playful, often happy, sometimes brooding, sometimes epic, somtimes free, but always under that sort of control only very good musicians (and band leaders) can enforce - very much previte (and also very much tonal - this isn't another atonal-modern-classical-ish bit of music). And each piece is short - 2-3 minutes; at first this was distracting - - i felt they didn't last long enough to really get a feel for what was going on. but after multiple listens, the structure, melody, harmonies, and moods of each piece became more apparent, and my appreciation has increased as a result. Another recent winner from Tzadik..." Total agreement. Thank goodness it's not one of those third stream attempts. In fact it's not an easy work to categorize, much like Miro himself. Though the pieces are short, my feeling is that they hang together as one, again reflecting Miro's pieces which were done as a series. I've listened to it quite a few times, and each time another instruemnt seems to rise to the top, very much like first hearing Pharoah's Dance or Miles Runs the Voodoo Down. Speaking of Voodoo, anyone heading out to catch Bobby's Voodoo (formerly The Horse) tonight? I would, but the 1000 miles drive would get me there a bit late. If you are going (and preserving the moment...hint) please contact me off line. Alan Kayser np Mujician "Spacetime" _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:34:13 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman Subject: Re: another burning question Martin: According to John Litwiller (sp)'s bio of Ornette, after he asked a doctor about castration, the medical man suggested circumcision -- symbolic castration as he put it -- hm. As for the Olsen Twins, the place place to start is not. Ken - --- mwisckol@ocregister.com wrote: > olsen twins, the sex life of zorn, ornette playing > out of tune.... > > what i really want to know: is it true that ornette > had himself catstrated > in the mid-60s so that sexual urges would no longer > distract him from his > art? i mean, did complain a couple times about that > distraction in earlier > interviews and he does have a bit of a squeak in his > voice, just like my > grandfather got after having a cancer-related > operation of that type > (which, btw, he reported made him feel much better). > > also, where is a good place to start with the olsen > twins? ===== Ken Waxman mingusaum@yahoo.ca www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos ______________________________________________________________________ Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:41:35 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: another burning question On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:34:13 -0500 (EST) Ken Waxman wrote: > > Martin: > > According to John Litwiller (sp)'s bio of Ornette, > after he asked a doctor about castration, the medical > man suggested circumcision -- symbolic castration as > he put it -- hm. We poor humans are fortunate to be allowed to trade the true thing for its watered down version (the "symbolic" one), it helps us, at least, to avoid the ridicule and keep a straight face :-). But if Coleman's problem could be completely solved on the symbolic level, that surely means that it was not a really tragic one (thanks for us). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:55:17 -0800 From: florid oratory Subject: Re: LA question whit, check out a club called rocco, i think the site is roccoinla.org. also, first sunday of the month has decent groups, leaning outside, at the eagle rock community cultural center--the series is programmed by alex cline, nels' great drumming brother. also go to the cryptogrammophone records website and email an inquiry to jeff gauthier. he'll know a few things.... - --graham connah > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:23:50 -0600 (CST) > From: Whit Schonbein > Subject: last minute LA question + previte mini review > > 1. I'm off to Los Angeles sunday for a week. A perusal of the Knitting > Factory Hollywood website was discouraging. Anybody know of anything > interesting going on, muscially? By interesting I mean improv music, > including some more straight ahead stuff, e.g., mehldau or chris potter's > quartet. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:00:20 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: minilp hi -- lifted this off the jazzmatazz site (the proprietor of which, i believe, is online here). what the devil's a 'mini lp'? Gigi Gryce/Donald Byrd & Cecil Taylor - Jazz Lab & Quartet At Newport (Verve) Sept — mini-LP Sister Rosetta Tharpe - Gospel Train (Verve) Sept — mini-LP Farmer/Golson Jazztet - At Birdhouse (Verve) Sept — mini-LP Sam Rivers - Crystals (Verve/Impulse!) Sept — mini-LP Cal Tjader - Soul Bird: Whiffenpoof (Verve) Sept — mini-LP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:58:33 -0500 From: "Sean Westergaard" Subject: RE: minilp >hi -- lifted this off the jazzmatazz site (the proprietor of which, i >believe, is online here). what the devil's a 'mini lp'? mini LP's are cd packages made to look just like, well, mini lp's. they often have gatefolds and all original packaging. I saw a bunch of Impulse titles out in Japan (including a remastered Tauhid!). Blue Note Japan and Sony Japan have done a bunch too. Get Back label out of Italy did the Sun Ra ESP discs a couple years ago, and a label called Vido did the first 20 or so Zappa releases. They're basically for fetishists (myself included), although there are some available overseas with remastering that hasn't been unleashed on us stateside. I'm sure those Verve titles you listed will simply be rereleases done in that spiffy packaging. I have spoken to a few people who don't like them because they aren't the same size as a jewel case, but I think they're pretty cool. sean - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:14:03 GMT From: "nors5379" Subject: zorn piece to be played at Eastman School of Music it was brought to my attention by a friend who attends Eastman that a Zorn piece is to be performed next thursday night as part of the monthly 'musica nova' series which is ran by brad lubman if im correct. theres no mention of what piece is to be performed but its next thursday night in kilbourn hall. more info can be found here under the march 7th listing... http://www.rochester.edu/Eastman/community_visitors/cv_conce rtcalendar.htm - -darryl. Darryl Norsen db.etree.org/shortround nors5379@fredonia.edu volerniemickey@hotmail.com if I were an easy bright boy I think I would say something like, "cleaning the fingernails with a dirty fingernail file is a form of masterbation." and I would probably win a scholarship, a grant, the king's sword on shoulder and 14 hot pieces of ass. -charles bukowski - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:14:40 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: RE: minilp >mini LP's are cd packages made to look just like, well, mini lp's. oh. yeah. i like those. stupid name for them, tho, yeah? _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:16:45 -0800 From: Clint Nation Subject: Re: Game Theory Herb Levy wrote: > > Clint Nation asks: > > > > > Did any of Mr. Zorn's Cobra projects turn out according to the set > > plan. Given the axioms of rational choice, the axioms that Mr. Zorn > > set-up, one should be predict the outcome of the musical interaction. > > As we know people do not always act rationally and this would lead to > > the piece not working out according to the "set" plan. Note: Rational > > chaoice would be determined by the axioms set up by Mr. Zorn.....i.e. > > "It is rational to prefer the destruction of the universe to the > > scratching of one's finger"-Hume. If so what peices actually work out > > and are there any writings explaining the logic and axioms used? > > > >A new member, > >XQUIQ > > Maybe I'm not fully understanding what you write here, but these > pieces aren't just outlines that Zorn didn't fill in entirely, > they're like "real" games with sets of rules, but options for > individual players within these rules. The range of actions and > interactions is wide enough that there's no sense in trying to > predict the outcome. > > Just as in baseball or hockey or chess or whatever, of course, based > on past performances, you can always "predict" that one team or > individual will kick another's butt, but the game doesn't always go > the way you think it will. A baseball game in which the Texas Rangers > beat the Seattle Mariners might be unlikely, based on last year's > teams at least, but it could still follow all of the rules of > baseball and be unpredictable in this way. > > The FAQ has a lengthy > description of game pieces that may be of help. Or not. > > Bests, > > Herb > -- > Herb Levy > Mappings on Antenna Internet Radio > > mappings@antennaradio.com > > Mappings P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 USA > > - Mr. Zitt and Mr. Levy, There doesn't have to be a winner or loser in a noncompetitive game. Also, the fact that there "rules" (once again set out by Mr. Zorn) implies that the choices the players makes are not arbitrary. However, as in real life, or in baseball, people are free to play within this rules. I realize that Mr. Zorn's game pieces are like "real" games with sets of rules, in which each individual player plays within these rules. I realize now that I may have been asking to much when I asked which peices actually worked out. However it may not be to much to ask which pieces actually followed the structure of the game and which strategies where available to the players? In addition, what are the rules that Mr. Zorn set up for some of these game(are they available anywhere)? I realize that this discussion may not be considered in the realm of game theory(yet!!!) but given this information I will be able to model the interactions between the musicians and model the game more formally(possibly using game theory). If you have an more information please feel free to add a comment..... P.S. Thank you Mr. Zitt and Mr. Levy for your response. P.P.S. I am writing my undergraduate honors essay(mathematics) on modelling musical interactions using game theory.....I figured the best place to start would be Mr. Zorn's Cobra. XQuiQ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:31:37 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Game Theory On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 10:16:45AM -0800, Clint Nation wrote: > Also, the fact that there "rules" (once again set out by Mr. Zorn) > implies that the choices the players makes are not arbitrary. However, > as in real life, or in baseball, people are free to play within this > rules. I realize that Mr. Zorn's game pieces are like "real" games with > sets of rules, in which each individual player plays within these > rules. Well, it depends how you apply the word "arbitrary". Of course, there are rules, but no musical situation exists without some constraints on the players, though these may be as subtle and unexamined as the physical constraints of the chosen instruments. Similarly, no ensemble music operates without some sort of interaction of the musicians, even if that interaction consists of ignoring one another (the sounds still mix in the air). And all music involves a degree of improvisation and interpretation (with the possible exception of the act of playing back an existing recording). > P.P.S. I am writing my undergraduate honors essay(mathematics) on > modelling musical interactions using game theory.....I figured the best > place to start would be Mr. Zorn's Cobra. I would be quite interested in ready what you come up with. My recent book (see below) contains some improvisation structures and related materials that may interest you. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:46:16 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: gamelan breaks? On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 03:49:37PM -0500, Andrew wrote: > Ok.....so I'm really digging the sound of the Gamelan, and i'm loving that > track on Filmworks X that's all Gamelan. What are some discs of Gamelan > music that I should check out? I recall an excellent introduction on the Nonesuch label named "Music for the Morning of the World". There's also a very good triple disc, "The Bali Sessions", produced by Mickey Hart on Rykodisc. For an intersection of 20th Century avant-garde with gamelan, check out the group Gamelan Son of Lion. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems | | http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html | | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:57:05 -0800 From: "gorilla thing" Subject: new fella' thankyou's/ New Model Army Hello, thank you all for the recommendations, I'm doing some fishing to find out your results. since it seems most of the Zornies are huge music fans, what is your take on New Model Army? One of my favorites since high school that continue to bash out great music. Thanks to all for their help. Chad _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:23:32 -0500 (EST) From: Albrecht Koschnik Subject: gamelan How about Philip Corner, '3 Pieces for Gamelan Ensemble'?! And: Celestial Harmonies has a three-CD set, 'The Music of Cambodia'; '9 Gong Gamelan' is devoted to a Gamelan ensemble recorded inside Angkor Wat (central temple of Khmer culture) [should be available separately]. In general, Celestial H. has a bunch of similar sets, Vietnam, Bali, China, which are highly addictive. Albrecht - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:21:29 -0500 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Bud Powell, Kenny Millions articles Greetings In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine , you'll find (among other things): KENNY MILLIONS Mark Swartz interviews the loft-jazz to sushi-blues legend BUD POWELL Mad genius of be-bop: D.A. Nation looks at the sad, brutal life of this under-rated piano prestidigitator We're always looking for good material so let us know if you have any writing or ideas for upcoming issues. See you online, Jason Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #803 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. 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