Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish

["David Tippets" <dtippets@xmission.com>]

Lee,

The effects of nationalism and ethnocentrism on we interpret the history of
the West are facinating.  Let's probe a little deeper into the concept of
Scottish mountain men.  The answer to MacRaith's original question can be a
simple as some Scottish names, or more complex if you put those Scottsmen in
the context of the political and corporate intrigue of their day.

It would be possible to make a division between what was a "fur trader" and
what was a "mountain man."  If we don't make that too wide of a division,
then certainly significant Scottish mountain men would include such
characters as Peter Skene Ogden, John Work, Alexander Ross, Finan McDonald,
and others who all led multiple significant brigades trapping and trading
for beaver in the Rocky Mountains.

If we draw a heavy line between "fur traders" and "mountain men," then we
probably have to say those Scotts were traders rather than mountain men.
But in being consistent, we'd also have to say that Jim Bridger, William
Sublette, and Etiene Provost were also traders rather than mountain men --
and we could hardly bare the pain of denying Old Gabe his crown as King of
the Mountain Men.

Why not say that Ogden, Work, Ross, and McDonald were "Rocky Mountain"
mountain men?  Further, the Rocky Mountains don't stop at  49 N. Latitude,
so we might also include Scottsmen McKennzie and Fraser as mountain men who
explored the Rocky Mountains.

It is interesting to note in Alexander Ross's autobiography, he recalls a
conversation with the Northwest Company factor he went to work for after
John Jacob Astor sold out Astoria.  That particular Scottish/Canadian
trader, who probably could not qualify as a mountain man, asked Ross to
compare the differences between how the "Americans" and the "North Westers"
did business.  Ross's reply included the statement, "Are we not all
Americans and all Scottsmen?"  Ross's statement leads one to believe that
from the mouth of Columbia at the time Scottsmen must have appeared to be
abundant and the land they explored appeared to be America.

Scottsman Ross appears to have been just as willing work of a New York based
company as a Montreal based company.  If New Yorker John Jacob Astor has
succeeded in making his dream of dominating the western fur trade a reality,
it might have been Astor rather than the Hudson Bay Company who purchased
the Northwest Company.   Astor's navy just couldn't compete with the navy of
the competition.

It's fun to speculate -- if that multitude of Northwest Company  Scotsmen
had suddenly become Astor's employees -- would we even think of them as
Scottsmen today?  Or would we have grandfathered them in as "Americans," as
we did all the other first-generation immigrants who settled in the Oregon
Territory?  In either case, the Scotts who participated in the Snake River
Brigades probably have just as stong of a claim to be called mountain men as
the men of various national origens who accompanied Ashley to the mountains.

It's a man's deeds that made him a mountain man -- not where he was born or
which company signed his paycheck during the competition between weathy and
powerful men to gain control of the Western fur trade.  The stockholders
just wanted more profit -- the politicians just wanted to gain control of
the territory on behalf of their constituent stockholders -- and the
mountain men (American, Scottish, French, or Indian)  just wanted to see
what was on the other side of the divide.  Anyway, that's how it seems from
here in Peter Skene's Ogden, Mexico-Utah.

Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Newbill <lnewbill@uidaho.edu>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Friday, October 16, 1998 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish


>> MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote:
>>    I am just getting started and am looking for good resource material
>> > for the Scottish during the French Indian War & more specifically on
>> > those that went mountain man afterwards.  Any suggestions?
>
>On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Dennis Fisher wrote:
>> I think we have a slight timing problem here.  The French and Indian War
was
>> in the late 1750s  and the mountain man period, at its earliest really
>> didn't get going until after Lewis and Clark returned.
>
>Actually Dennis, your partially correct, the american Rocky Mountain
>Furtrade dates to after Lewis and Clark, however, the American Fur Trade
>dates back to Champlain in the early 1600's.  The Northwest Company, which
>picked up the pieces of the french fur trade in the later 1700's and was
>chock full of Scots, as was the HBC.
>
>Regards
>
>Lee Newbill
>Viola, Idaho
>email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu
>Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage
>http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186
>
>
>