Don't want to start a fight either. I went to my copy of "The Bluejackets' Manual" which I got when I went into the Navy back in "62". What the "Manual" says about the right side of the river or channel was still the same in "93" when I got out. I'm not a "Navigator" just an old Senior Chief Boatswains Mate. It simply states that Re: "Red, Right, Returning."-- is a widely used phrase that helps in remembering the significance of the color on channel markers. The red buoys should be on the right when a ship is returning from the sea." On the previous page it said that Re: colored buoys--Red: Marks the right-hand side of a channel (as seen from seaward). Now the US Navy is only the oldest service and almost if not older than our country so this way of differentiating which is the right side of the channel is not something new. I wasn't implying that early frontiersmen/explorers automatically used that way of differentiating the sides of rivers they navigated. I said that I thought it reasonable that they would carry on the tradition established by the sailing fraternity.
I have no more idea what this or that explorer or historical author means when he refers to the right side of the river than you do. If he gives clues then we might be able to figure it out. But to say that you "have no doubt what is meant by the right or left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth." flies in the face of maritime law and the way the whole of the sailing/boating/ship handling looks at it and you don't have to be a navigator. If that is what you want it to mean to you then just let the rest of the world know.
The fact that ships at sea and planes in the air carry a red light to port or the left side and a green light to starboard or on the right side has nothing to do with marking channels or which side of the channel is considered the right or the left side. Why vessels are so marked is not recorded in my literature but the reason is so you may know by sight whether the vessel/plane is approaching or coming from the left or right. (The red and green running lights are not visible from the rear or dead astern.) I have no idea why Merriam Webster would say the opposite of what the Maritime community says but I think in this case MW is not the one you want to rely on when navigating inland waters.
I looked with great curiosity in my copy of "Astoria" by Washington Irving as edited by Richard Dilworth Rust and could not find the references you directed us to on the pages indicated. Are we looking at two different books? In any case, if Hunt were on his westward portion of the journey it would seem reasonable that if he were going down stream, and cared little or nothing for what I have found above, he would describe the right side of the river while looking down stream. Since I can't find this passage in my book on those pages I can't testify to the validity of your observation. You may be right. I do know that most every one who travels on rivers for a living will say the right side of a river is "as you look up stream". So take it for how it was offered. In the spirit of sharing and learning, I remain.....
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
Tomactor@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/10/98 12:11:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
lahtirog@gte.net writes:<< < stream. >>
>
> A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right, returning" I
agree
> with you Capt. Lathi. >>Hello the list
I don't want to start a big fight, but I asked this question of Merriam -
Webster some time ago and they replied "looking downstream." Subsequent
reading confirmed this.One such place is in "Astoria", by Washington Irving.
"Astoria" p. 257 tells of Hunt taking the right bank, and later, on page 262,
25 lines from the top: For the two following days they continued
westward...along river...until they crossed it just before its junction with
the Snake, which was still running north.Read Chittenden's "The American Fur Trade of the Far West. Page 191-192,
volume 1
"Hunt, with 22 persons...took the right bank. ...retrograde march resolved
upon...Hunt now left Day and Crooks and hastened on to Weiser River, which he
had passed on the 26th of the previous month. Among the
Indians...upstream...he remained until Dec. 21.Since the Weiser comes in from the east, if Hunt looked downstream he would
be on the right bank.There are many other references. I will look for some more. And I'll bet you
will find it in your own reading now hat your subconscious is working on it.I do agree that people who use this reference should also use other clues.
I will look for some more, but I have no doubt what is meant by the right or
left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth.Tom Laidlaw